Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[The Puzzler]

This is quite interesting because it's what I'd been hoping would happen, that our mind-set of who the Celts actually were is expanding.

Myles Dillon and Nora Kershaw Chadwick accepted that "the Celtic settlement of the British Isles" might have to be dated to the Beaker period concluding that "There is no reason why so early a date for the coming of the Celts should be impossible".^[37][38] Martín Almagro Gorbea^[39] proposed the origins of the Celts could be traced back to the 3rd millennium BC, seeking the initial roots in the Bell Beaker culture, thus offering the wide dispersion of the Celts throughout western Europe, as well as the variability of the different Celtic peoples, and the existence of ancestral traditions an ancient perspective. Using a multidisciplinary approach Alberto J. Lorrio and Gonzalo Ruiz Zapatero reviewed and built on Almagro Gorbea's work to present a model for the origin of the Celtic archaeological groups in the Iberian Peninsula (Celtiberian, Vetton, Vaccean, the Castro Culture of the northwest, Asturian-Cantabrian and Celtic of the southwest) and proposing a rethinking the meaning of "Celtic" from a European perspective.^[40] More recently, John Koch^[41] and Barry Cunliffe^[42] have suggested that Celtic origins lie with the Atlantic Bronze Age, roughly contemporaneous with the Hallstatt culture but positioned considerably to the West, extending along the Atlantic coast of Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

The Bell Beaker culture in Germany displays the haplotype that became associated with Western Europe dominant R1b, (Atlantic coast) an Italo-Germanic-Celt. I think Celt is a massively over-used word. proposing a rethinking the meaning of "Celtic" from a European perspective. Not a minute too soon.

I don't think that Fryans are necessarily Celts but if we take the OLB at face value, the Celts are an offshoot of the Fryans at first. Some language is shared and it could be that this early Celtic type of the British Isles, who isn't really quite Celtic but more Briton, influenced by evolving dominant Celtic culture, fits just as the OLB says.

From Germania: Upon the right of the Suebian Sea the Aestian nations reside, who use the same customs and attire with the Suebians; their language more resembles that of Britain

Edited October 16, 2014 by The Puzzler

[Van Gorp]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi:

"Classical authors noted that the Suebic tribes, compared to other Germanic tribes, were very mobile, and not reliant upon agriculture"

I think we should refrain from talking about all those "tribes".

In my eyes we underestimate by using this word the structural underpinning of society in those days.

I think it all has more to do with way of earning one's living in society and holding one's position (called tribe) in society.

The tribes we are talking about could very well just be different groups of same Germanic society (now and then fighting among each other for power or influence or fighting against common adversary).

Gildes are the offspring of it.

About the Suevi: imo comes from "Zweven" -> rondtrekken, being agile as floting in the air.

[flashman7870]

Does anyone know of any references to Rods or Sticks in the OLB?

http://books.google.com/books?id=-HQAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq#v=onepage&q=frisons&f=false

[Ott]

Does anyone know of any references to Rods or Sticks in the OLB?

Not in the context of divination.

[Ott]

Will watch the video, but what evidence is there aside from your suspicions?

Better watch it before assuming that what I present is merely suspicions.

And if you had (really) read the OLB you would not have to ask us about those rods.

I suggest you do some more homework first.

[Ott]

I am convinced by Abramelin's 'Alternative Toponymy' of the OLB- Middle Sea is the Middelsee of Frisia [...]

In my humble opinion, that theory is utter nonsense.

Just for the record.

[flashman7870]

Better watch it before assuming that what I present is merely suspicions.

And if you had (really) read the OLB you would not have to ask us about those rods.

I suggest you do some more homework first.

You're right, I haven't read the OLB. I was actually going to ask- I know you have an issue with most of the translations on certain details. Have you ever made your own? Which translation do you reccomend, if not?

[flashman7870]

In my humble opinion, that theory is utter nonsense.

Just for the record.

Well, I wouldn't expect you to

But your video didn't tell me anything I didn't already know...

[flashman7870]

Heh, another example of Abe's deduction... so many coincidences of geography and names...

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

OK, so the Halbertsma's had a dog called Apol.

We see his son Binnert portrayed as a young boy, so that might give us an idea when Halbertsma created this 'grevetman Apol'.

Apol, a guard dog; they must have taken him on walkies to Leeuwarden, the Lindenoord mansion of the Van Haren family, and Stavoren, and let him 'mark' the linden-trees he encountered, lol. No doubt he was also fond of swimming, retrieving sticks from the water ("sea-king").

+++++++++++++

EDIT:

Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma was born 06 APR 1833 in Deventer, and died 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam.

http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9990

•ID: I9983

•Name: Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma

•Sex: M

•Birth: 06 APR 1833 in Deventer 1

•Death: 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam 2

•Burial: 13 JUN 1861 Amsterdam 2

•Occupation: luitenant-ter-zee 2e kl..

•Change Date: 29 MAR 2006

Father: Justus \ Joost \ Joast \ Hiddes Halbertsma b: 23 OCT 1789 in Grouw

Mother: Johanna Iskjen Hoekema b: 06 APR 1794 in Workum c: 16 APR 1794 in Workum

http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9983

And click on all the names of the Halbertsmas here:

http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9990

[Ott]

Heh, another example of Abe's deduction... so many coincidences of geography and names...

You call that deduction?

Using 'coincidences' that way, one can 'prove' that Mickey Mouse wrote the OLB.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Othar Winis

[Ott]

Which translation do you recommend?

For now I would recommend the online (English + Norse) one by Hans Olav Lien:

http://oeralindabook.com/the-oera-linda-book/

[The Puzzler]

Thinking more on Thyrisburg, Tyre, that Heracles is Tyr before but now just realised that the name Tyr, Thyr, Hyr - Her-acles is most likely the same word, so the Magyar worshipped Heracles and bought that concept to Tyre. They may have called him King of the City Melqart in a local language.

Strangely, OHG would be Ziu/z - sounds like typical Indo-European Zeus.

In the late Icelandic Eddas, Tyr is portrayed, alternately, as the son of Odin (Prose Edda) or of Hymir (Poetic Edda), while the origins of his name and his possible relationship to Tuisto (see Tacitus' Germania) suggest he was once considered the father of the gods and head of the pantheon, since his name is ultimately cognate to that of *Dyeus (cf. Dyaus), the reconstructed chief deity in Indo-European religion. It is assumed that Tîwaz was overtaken in popularity and in authority by both Odin and Thor at some point during the Migration Age, as Odin shares his role as God of war.

Might be Tuisto and he's been an important ancient head of the Pantheon God, means Dyeus, so does Zeus apparently. He's also Mars in Rome, father of the Romans. Ares.

Gothic TIZ imo can also be DIS. His name means simply God. I think this is Heracles to his worshippers, the shining one.

The name of Mars Thingsus (Thincsus) is found in an inscription on an 3rd-century altar from the Roman fort and settlement of Vercovicium at Housesteads in Northumberland, thought to have been erected by Frisian mercenaries stationed at Hadrian's Wall. It is interpreted as "Mars of the Thing".^[6] Here is also worth noting what Tacitus stated in his work Germania about capital punishment amongst the Germanic folk; that none could be flogged, imprisoned or executed, not even on order of the warlord, without the consent of the priest; who was himself required to render his judgement in accordance with the will of the god they believe inspires them to the field of battle.^[7]

Tacitus also named the German "Mars" as the primary deity, along with the German "Mercury" (believed to be Odin), Hercules (believed to be Thor) and "Isis". In the text however, Hercules is the one to be mentioned the most often. Depending on translation, "Mercury" is stated to be the chiefly worshipped god but other translation does not provide any sort of hierchy among the gods. Tacitus states that "Mars" and "Hercules" receive animal sacrifices while "Mercury" receives human sacrifices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr

Edited October 19, 2014 by The Puzzler

[flashman7870]

You call that deduction?

Using 'coincidences' that way, one can 'prove' that Mickey Mouse wrote the OLB.

But you must admit, the coincidences stack up after a while...

But a mountain of small evidence is never sufficient evidence, this is true.

[flashman7870]

Has anyone ever done a handwriting analysis to determine whether there were in fact multiple authors? While the Hoax theory and the True theory both think this to be true, but it would be interesting

[Ott]

But you must admit, the coincidences stack up after a while...

The problem is that people tend to only perceive the coincidences that fit their preconceived idea.

Paranoid people for example see evidence everywhere for what they believe.

Do you know if in 19th century Holland 'Apol' was a common dog name?

I guess you simply assumed it was not.

[Ott]

Has anyone ever done a handwriting analysis to determine whether there were in fact multiple authors?

No, but I did something like a quantitative spelling variety analysis.

"If OLB is authentic, it is a composition of texts by various authors, from different times and different regions.

One would expect a variety of writing style and spelling between different parts of the book."

http://fryskednis.blogspot.de/2012/06/quantitative-olb-analysis.html

[Ott]

"If OLB is authentic, it is a composition of texts by various authors, from different times and different regions.

One would expect a variety of writing style and spelling between different parts of the book."

http://fryskednis.bl...b-analysis.html

"If OLB was created in the 19th century, the (main) author must have been extremely knowledgeable, intelligent and creative, to be able to evoke this highly sophisticated 'illusion of authenticity' (term used by Jensma). If the intension was simply to make a parody of the Bible and/or Frisian 'Fantastic' history - as Jensma suggests* - this effort to add spelling variety in this way was totally out of proportion.

* More precisely:

According to Jensma, besides a parody of Frisian historiography, the OLB would be a parody of the 'denominational struggle between orthodoxy and free-thinking modernism which broke out at the end of the 1850s inside the Dutch Reformed church as well as in Dutch society as a whole'."

Edited October 20, 2014 by Othar Winis

[Van Gorp]

Is anyone technically skilled to explain how comes that 67 guests are said to be reading this topic while there are only 21 in the total Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History forum?

[flashman7870]

While it's not really that hard to come up with several different spellings, one possibility is that the authors simply forgot or couldn't easily find the spellings they had used earlier, so they just devised the new one.

Your biggest problem, Otharus, is you really underestimate creativity. Look into some world building communities, aside from Lord of the Rings. Individuals, not groups of individuals as the OLB was presumably written by, have made worlds just as detailed, if not more so then that of the OLB- and they started from scratch, as well.

www.reddit.com/r/worldbuilding

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=248737

Is anyone technically skilled to explain how comes that 67 guests are said to be reading this topic while there are only 21 in the total Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History forum?

This thread could still be showing Guests from an earlier time (though it's only reading 8 for me)

[Ott]

Your biggest problem, Otharus, is you really underestimate creativity.

Your problem is that you don't even know what we're discussing here.

You're right, I haven't read the OLB.

[flashman7870]

Your problem is that you don't even know what we're discussing here.A)

.A) I've started reading, and I've read 600 pages of the old thread. My knowledge of the OLB is pretty good- I don't claim it to be as good as yours, but it's certainly nothing to spit at. There are what, 300 pages in the OLB? George RR Martin, Tolkien, Issac Asmiov, HG Wells and so many ithers have written hundreds of thousands of pages compared to the 230 or something in the OLB.

[Ott]

I've started reading [...] My knowledge of the OLB is pretty good

Your pretty good knowledge is borrowed and handpicked based on prejudice. LOL

George RR Martin, Tolkien, Issac Asmiov, HG Wells and so many others have written hundreds of thousands of pages compared to the 230 or something in the OLB.

1. they got credit (money, honor) for their work

2. they worked within an existing tradition

3. their work didn't cause the sort of controversy that the OLB did

4. they didn't use paper that modern science (supposedly) can't date

5. they didnt use a language that could be the main ancestor of the NW-European languages

Multatuli (1820-1887) was elected to be the favorite author (of all time) by the Society of Dutch Literature.

He could not imagine that any of his contemporaries had created the OLB and believed in its authenticity.

Relevant Multatuli quotes in this video:

[flashman7870]

Your pretty good knowledge is borrowed and handpicked based on prejudice. LOL

I remember both the proof for and against. I remember the Marsati. I remember Waralden Olmai, a remember Troy correctly being identified as real. But I also remember that lack of archaeology, I also remember Vampyra, and Church, I remember Bedrvm.

You criticize the Frisian, Hollandais and world establishment for refusing to give OLB time of day, and yet you keep dismissing me.

1. they got credit (money, honor) for their work

2. they worked within an existing tradition

3. their work didn't cause the sort of controversy that the OLB did

4. they didn't use paper that modern science (supposedly) can't date

5. they didnt use a language that could be the main ancestor of the NW-European languages

Multatuli (1820-1887) was elected to be the favorite author (of all time) by the Society of Dutch Literature.

He could not imagine that any of his contemporaries had created the OLB and believed in its authenticity.

Relevant Multatuli quotes in this video:

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Geroge Orwell wrote his greatest works under a nom de plume.

All I meant to point out is you portray writing a 250 or some such book could only be a work of fact, when people have written far longer and more detailed worlds.

People don't always do world building for money- in fact, most people don't. I worldbuild (I have some posts in that forum thread I linked to, in fact (including one that made reference to the Fryansm lol)), and I don't plan on ever writing a novel. I just do it for my own sake.

Will watch your Mutatuli video later, but he did not write fantasy.

[Ott]

I remember both the proof for and against.

I have not discovered any proof against OLB's authenticity in this thread.

Can you summarise or refer to it?

[flashman7870]

Evidence against it? Lets see...

Bedrvm, a word which appeared in no language until the 1500s or thereabouts

Vampyra, which is derived from Upyr (ultimately from the Turkish 'Ubyr', Witch), and only developed into Vampire in fairly recent times.

Lack of any spectacular events circa 2193/4 BC.

The syntax is to modern.

Cecrops is spelled 'Sekrops' when it should be with a K.

Cadiz is called Kaddik when the oldest name is Gadiera (and there just so happens to by a Frisian Katwijk, pronounced Kaddik, and it is also a common last name in the Netherlands...)