Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Ott]

O, this is NOT Abe.

I don't care who he is.

Just sick of that very same merger of ignorance and arrogance.

Example:

You obviously understand neither scholarship nor science.

If he has anything interesting to say, I will see it when you or VG quote him.

[The Puzzler]

I don't care who he is.

Just sick of that very same merger of ignorance and arrogance.

Example:

If he has anything interesting to say, I will see it when you or VG quote him.

To be honest, I cringed when I read that response from him, very unneeded and sure to annoy anyone.

[flashman7870]

I like your participation and I can tell you're not Abe. O, this is NOT Abe.

Don't worry, carry on, this is a very sensitive topic, we all get over it and come back, we love it too much to leave...

I actually want to reply to a few of your posts but I'm a bit time poor at the moment.

This is a good dictionary imo, it has English in the explanations: http://www.koeblerge...rieswbhinw.html

Thanks Puz, I appreciate the support

[flashman7870]

I don't care who he is.

Just sick of that very same merger of ignorance and arrogance.

Example:

If he has anything interesting to say, I will see it when you or VG quote him.

To be honest, I cringed when I read that response from him, very unneeded and sure to annoy anyone.

I'm sorry, that was rude. Otharus is obviously a very intelligent person, I just disagree with him, and I shouldn't question his intelligence.

But the fact of the matter is there is a difference between scholarship/ science and the Law.

For example, I could select, say, the Vandals, and with modern history, I *could* write something that is totally consistent with various myths and recorded histories. But just because it's consistent with and I have a perfectly reasonable explanation for why they left behind no records, there is no reason for it to be true. Same with many HP Lovecraft stories- civilizations are no longer recorded because they existed millions of years ago, and are buried deep, deep, deep below the crust of the earth. His story could very well be true, but there is no reason for it to be.

For the same reason, String Theory is not always accepted. It's math all works out, but the only way o test it is currently unfeasible at our level of civilization.

Consistent with=/= true. And the OLB is consistent in many parts. But is that a reason to accept it's validity? So is the Old High German Lullaby. It's consistent in many regions But then again, linguistically, it is not.

In conclusion; scholarship and science would be thrown into disarray if we simply accepted *every* theory that was at least in part consistent with other facts. So, we require a higher standard of evidence- the Burden of Proof, rests on the defend-ee.

[The Puzzler]

Well, isn't this a doozy; apparently, in Norway, an inscription in Linear B was found in the 80s.... dating to circa 1700 BC. Seems... odd since the Minoans would have so recently learned Jol script, and not had that much time to corrupt it, and yet, it looks nothing like Jol Script?

http://jarnaes.wordp...crete-linear-a/

Not only that, earliest example of Linear A comes from circa 2100 BC from Potters Marks in Lahun, Egypt.

That whole article was thoroughly interesting.

[flashman7870]

The forum tells me Puz has just posted something, and yet I can't see it...

EDIT: Nevermind, I can see it now. Agreed, Puz. I think people really underestimate the amount of contact between the 'Classical' world and Northern Europe.

Edited October 28, 2014 by flashman7870

[The Puzzler]

flashman, maybe that article answered where the Silverlands were.

[The Puzzler]

The forum tells me Puz has just posted something, and yet I can't see it...

EDIT: Nevermind, I can see it now. Agreed, Puz. I think people really underestimate the amount of contact between the 'Classical' world and Northern Europe.

Yes, it's my pet project.

Just reading this, http://freya.thelady...com/?page_id=89

I don't think it's that far-fetched to see the Aten here, with the concept that Akhenaten banished all other Gods except the one that represented 'life force' itself. A woman Sun explains imo the way his whole family worship this Mother deity. Arriving with the Baltic amber and possibly Danish silver.

The change to a masculine deity is not strange but I also notice Akhenaten did not picture the Aten as a falcon-headed man but only as the hand rayed Sun, this might mean his version of the Sun was actually different from prior versions of Re. In particular, the god was not depicted in anthropomorphic (human) form, but as rays of light extending from the sun's disk.

It might even be possible that the swastika symbol here represents this life force of the mother Sun, literally, a womb, where life is created, from the rays - the swastika is on this piece c. 700BC Etruria, it appears to me to convey a very Nordic myth with the water birds, who represented the souls of people. This piece imo therefore represents: The Mother womb of the Sun in the centre of a Lake, surrounded by the life force of souls during rebirth. Seems like a jewellery piece a person who had just lost their spouse or such might have, comfort that their loved ones soul was on a rebirth journey through the Sun.

Finno-Ugric people from Siberia to Scandinavia believed in the existence of a Sun Woman, Sun Mother, or Sun Maiden, who gave life to the world through her golden rays and who received the dead souls by a sacred lake filled with swans and other aquatic birds that represented the souls of people

http://en.wikipedia...._to_650_BCE.jpg

A bit off track but the articles were really thought-inspiring.

Edited October 28, 2014 by The Puzzler

[flashman7870]

flashman, maybe that article answered where the Silverlands were.

Didn't even think about that...

Though it doesn't really make sense on a number of accounts. Had the Finns taken Skenland from the Fryas yet? If not, surely it should be *our* Silverlands. But even if this were after the Finns invaded, the point of the Odysseus thing was that no Greeks had come north since the Trojan Wars, so how would they be getting rich off of Scandinavian Silver?

[flashman7870]

Eh, that doesn't really look like an Aten to me. If anything, it looks like the earth with trees sticking off, and some mother deity next to it.

[The Puzzler]

Eh, that doesn't really look like an Aten to me. If anything, it looks like the earth with trees sticking off, and some mother deity next to it.

The concept is probably the same actually, trees would be the Earths life force.

I'm not sure if round shaped Earth's are depicted that early.

There's another one in this picture and as far as I know they are always meant to depict the Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Carvings_in_Tanum

Funny that the place is named Tanum, it must have been some place of ritual, there are over a thousand of these glyphs just there.

Euphemos come to holy Tainaros (Taenarum) and cast that seed where cleft earth opens to the mouth of hell, then had his sons in the fourth generation seized with the Danai this broad mainland.

http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheKalliste.html

Edited October 29, 2014 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Looking for something for Taenarum that might mean holy, that might represent a mouth of hell that might also have connected to ritual in Tanum, where that word might also mean the same - tan-rum variants.

In Breton and Cornish as well as below words, tan means fire or flame - place of fire ....fire/flame space From Proto-Celtic *teɸnet- (“fire”) (compare Old Irish teine, Welsh tân).

English:

/tæn/

From French tan (“tanbark”), from Gaulish tanno (“live oak”) (compare Breton tann (“red oak”), Old Cornish tannen), from Proto-Indo-European *dʰonu (“fir”) (compare Hittite [script?] (tanau, “fir”)[script?], Latin femur, genitive feminis (“thigh”), German Tann (“woods”), Tanne (“fir”), Albanian thanë (“cranberry bush”), Ancient Greek θάμνος (thámnos, “thicket”), Avestan [script?] (θanwarə), geitive [script?] (θanwanō, “bow”)[script?], Sanskrit धनुस् (dhánus), genitive [script?] (dhánvanus, “bow”)[script?]). Verb from Middle English tannen, from late Old English tannian (“to tan a hide”), from Anglo-Norman tanner, from tan

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tan

Greek thicket, interesting to say the least. Some mix up with thickets and fire maybe... regardless of that, the Breten etymology does seem to fit well with the Greek place of Taenarum.

thigh is interesting too, since Dionysus was sewn up and born from a thigh and his cult carries tree branches around waving them madly.

It could relate to die - later this term was used by Shakespeare to mean "to deprive of the freshness and beauty of youth" - to tan, to age, to brown - could be where fire is related - to make brown, to burn

Maybe Tanum is also a place of fire, a hell of sorts, where a God lived, maybe Tanum is just place of the oak, a ritual area that the God resided in, a grove - of Aries even, the Ram, the grove of Aries in the realm of Helios. Helios being a mother Sun really, being pulled by horses, seen in the wonderful Trundholm solar chariot from Bronze Age Denmark...

Seems strange to me this concept seen in Helios (really the Mother Sun) is seen so early in Denmark, are we expecting to believe here that Mycenaean traders imparted this Aegean idea onto them...hardly. The Sun would surely not be female if they did.

The story of Helios and his fall and Phaethons sisters tears of amber, the Mycenaean or Phoenician traders again... I don't think so.

Edited October 29, 2014 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The life force of the Mother Sun is probably responsible for Stonehenge and it's possible use as a healing centre as such, when the Sun renews herself what better time to get her energy renewing rays than Solstice.

Athena imo seems to represent the life force of Troy, she may be some kind of ancient symbolism for this concept, then I realised her name was very similar to Aten and even in Linear B - the name of Athens at least, seems to be At(h)ana.

It almost appears that the snake has become a symbol of this life force. The snake Goddesses of Crete, seriously look to be waving them in a frenzy, possibly trying to attain some kind of higher life force. This is not uncommon, to let a snake bite you to receive 'life'.

It could be the link to Athena. Her induction into Athens is surrounded by serpent symbolism.

The Mother Sun as I see it may be Leto,mother of Apollo and Artemis, duel life energies, very powerful, gave or took life, with their rays of, I mean arrows. Think killing Niobes children.

That they are a male/female twin duo seems to represent the two energies that release, the womb was seen as where male or female was created.

Mention is made of a temple of Apollo in Britain, maybe Stonehenge, the healing centre.

Apollo's son is Asclepius, he could heal dead people by a snake bite, Zeus killed him for doing so too many times.

Interesting...

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

http://en.wikipedia....od_of_Asclepius

Meanwhile, back at Tanum:

Edited October 29, 2014 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This picture seems to depict the Sun chariot itself, like the Trundholm one. This picture may even be recording an event, I know, I spend way too much time staring at ancient pictures...but at the time the Sun was in a certain position in the Sky, maybe around Solstice, the archer is shooting his arrow at the boat, the arrow is under it, with the ships all the same fleeing direction. The charioteer separate from the solar chariot is interesting, I could interpret that as Phaethon even, another smaller Sun crossing the sky, letting go of his reins, maybe because right in front of him is a small snake or thunderbolt. Maybe some kind of conflict while this event occurred. The first picture I showed of fighting men has a heap of ships lined up behind them, kind of reminding me of the ships that head to Troy and a war. My imagination runs wild sometimes, still...these do strike me as some kind of story pictures and why not..? were they just doodling? This may be how they kept alive the great poems the bards came to know and recite and were known for rather than writing them down. Sorry I got carried away with the images, nothing particularly OLB here except making attention to how much I think could be infused into the Greek and Mediterranean cultures from the area including particular Gods, stories and therefore words.

Why was amber so prized in ancient Mediterranean..? As an icon of the Sun, they may have seen it possessed the same life force that was present emanating from the Sun. One of the arms of the sun above looks like the life force of the sun again, somewhat like primitive swastika shapes, like the Etruscan Bolsena pendant has them more distinct.

Edited October 29, 2014 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

Just reading this, http://freya.thelady...com/?page_id=89

The author, Maria Kvilhaug is very good. I am reading two of her books now. Highly recommended!

[flashman7870]

Ða ðrju norð.lika husa send 107 fol kêren ænd ôðer bihof. twa sûdar send tofara ða fâmkes vmbe to skola ænd to hêma. ðet sûdlikoste hus is ðêre burch.fam his hêm.

The three northern houses are 107 full (of) corn and other necessaries. (The) two southern are for the femmes to keep school and to live in. The southernmost house is the burgh-femme’s home.

Where did the Fryans get corn?!

[The Puzzler]

Ða ðrju norð.lika husa send 107 fol kêren ænd ôðer bihof. twa sûdar send tofara ða fâmkes vmbe to skola ænd to hêma. ðet sûdlikoste hus is ðêre burch.fam his hêm.

The three northern houses are 107 full (of) corn and other necessaries. (The) two southern are for the femmes to keep school and to live in. The southernmost house is the burgh-femme’s home.

Where did the Fryans get corn?!

The translation should probably be 'grain', (full of grain) with this word, also kernel - keren and variants even go back to cereal. Ceres was Goddess of cereal basically, Goddess of the grain.

corn (n.1) "grain," Old English corn, from Proto-Germanic *kurnam "small seed" (cognates: Old Frisian and Old Saxon korn "grain," Middle Dutch coren, German Korn, Old Norse korn, Gothic kaurn), from PIE root *gre-no- "grain" http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=corn

Edited October 30, 2014 by The Puzzler

[flashman7870]

The translation should probably be 'grain', (full of grain) with this word, also kernel - keren and variants even go back to cereal. Ceres was Goddess of cereal basically, Goddess of the grain.

corn (n.1) "grain," Old English corn, from Proto-Germanic *kurnam "small seed" (cognates: Old Frisian and Old Saxon korn "grain," Middle Dutch coren, German Korn, Old Norse korn, Gothic kaurn), from PIE root *gre-no- "grain" http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=corn

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. If the OLB is a hoax, it would be a very strange oversight on the part of the conspirators to include maize, without a mention of the Americas outside of Inka.

[The Puzzler]

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. If the OLB is a hoax, it would be a very strange oversight on the part of the conspirators to include maize, without a mention of the Americas outside of Inka.

There is no mention of the Americas. We are just seeing that because of his name Inka.

Inka could even be Ing and he sailed off reaching England and was never seen again.

The element Ing(o)- was widely used in Germanic names from an early period; it is not clear whether it originally referred to the Ingvaeones, or to the god Ing directly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngvi

Meaning of name Inka

Etymology : Frisian and Finnish feminine form of INGE

Saint :

Origin : Frisian

Coming up as a feminine form with the 'a' or 'e' ending in sources I can find, however it's probably also a mans name way back.

Freyr's name within this Ing context does mean 'ruler' or Lord, which is exactly what Inca means for the Incans.

So, even if it's not true that Inka sailed to the Americas, it's a strange co-incidence that the name Inka/Ing actually means Lord too when in use for Freyr. Freyr might be another name for his true name Ingvi, which might mean Lord, it could also mean.

Yngvi is a name of the god Freyr, perhaps intended as Freyr's true name while Frey 'Lord' is his common title.

The term Inka means ruler, or "lord," in Quechua

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Inca_Empire

So, even if you don't believe that Inka was Frisian and did reach America, how does this word connection make sense...? Just a co-incidence that Inka as Ing Freyr and American Inca both mean Lord..?

Maybe it's just a very, very ancient word for ruler that was in language before the first entrance into the Americas at all.

Edited October 30, 2014 by The Puzzler

[flashman7870]

Or it's a co-incidence.

[Ott]

I was asked to prove that OLB is authentic, that is: a 13th century copy of older originals.

Although I personally am convinced this is the case, I don't claim to have hard evidence for this.

What I do claim is that the reasons - thus far presented - to reject authenticity are invalid.

None of the so-called 'evidence' against authenticity is hard.

I also claim that it is suspect that even modern paper research has not resulted in a clear dating of the paper age.

And that it is a shame that the 'researchers' don't even want to consider the possibility that the paper is from the 13th century, as it looks exactly like Arab paper of that age (same waterline pattern).

Many people like certainty: it has to be either hoax or authentic. They can't stand the idea that something is just not fully clear (to them) yet.

To go from never having heard of the OLB to believing it's authentic is a big step.

To go from being convinced it's a hoax to accepting it's not might even be harder.

That is why I have taken the position of debunking the hoax theory first, the claims of people who say it's evidently fake (many of them not even having read it first).

My one hour video ("Saved from the Flood") is based on that idea.

I have given up 'discussing' with Abramelin, because in my perception he is not susceptible for reason.

Example: he keeps claiming "BEDRVM" can't be much older than the 16th century because there are no older written sources with a similar word. But BED(-A: verb) and RUM are both known to be much older, and there is no reason to exclude the possibility that the words were combined long before Shakespeare wrote "bedroom".

Some Aboriginal languages may be thousands of years old, yet only in the last century were they written down for the first time (as far as we know).

I can imagine if people have their reasons to doubt.

Doubt is good, but it's not evidence.

[Ott]

A personal 'coincidence' (no proof of anything!) just for whoever might be interested.

According to Hidde Oera Linda, the year 1256 CE equals 3449 after Átland ("the old land") sank.

That means 2007 was 4200 after the sinking of Átland (7 x 600 years or 6 x 700 years).

Making a (JOL-) wheel with 700-year spokes, leaving out 'year zero':

2194 BCE - spoke 1

1494 BCE - spoke 2

0794 BCE - spoke 3

0094 BCE - spoke 4

0607 CE - spoke 5

1307 CE - spoke 6 *

2007 CE - spoke '7' or full circle = spoke 1 again

In 2007 I had a near-death experience that radically changed my life (for the better).

Until 2009 I had only vaguely heard about the OLB, not knowing any detail nor opinion about it.

* 1307 CE: October 13 (Friday the 13th, at dawn) – All Knights Templar in France are simultaneously arrested by agents of King Philip IV, to be later tortured into "confessing" heresy.

[The Puzzler]

Or it's a co-incidence.

No, I don't think so. It may be a very ancient word, that was around before a split from Siberia into North America, to which descendants of Incans would have been - or maybe it travelled into the language or even others we don't acknowledge now, through the early landings in Newfoundland maybe or possibly a Frisian called Inka did arrive on the shores and this name as a Leader (Lord) went into native language but co-incidence seems too weird to me.

[flashman7870]

I was asked to prove that OLB is authentic, that is: a 13th century copy of older originals.

Although I personally am convinced this is the case, I don't claim to have hard evidence for this.

What I do claim is that the reasons - thus far presented - to reject authenticity are invalid.

None of the so-called 'evidence' against authenticity is hard.

I also claim that it is suspect that even modern paper research has not resulted in a clear dating of the paper age.

And that it is a shame that the 'researchers' don't even want to consider the possibility that the paper is from the 13th century, as it looks exactly like Arab paper of that age (same waterline pattern).

Many people like certainty: it has to be either hoax or authentic. They can't stand the idea that something is just not fully clear (to them) yet.

To go from never having heard of the OLB to believing it's authentic is a big step.

To go from being convinced it's a hoax to accepting it's not might even be harder.

That is why I have taken the position of debunking the hoax theory first, the claims of people who say it's evidently fake (many of them not even having read it first).

My one hour video ("Saved from the Flood") is based on that idea.

I have given up 'discussing' with Abramelin, because in my perception he is not susceptible for reason.

Example: he keeps claiming "BEDRVM" can't be much older than the 16th century because there are no older written sources with a similar word. But BED(-A: verb) and RUM are both known to be much older, and there is no reason to exclude the possibility that the words were combined long before Shakespeare wrote "bedroom".

Some Aboriginal languages may be thousands of years old, yet only in the last century were they written down for the first time (as far as we know).

I can imagine if people have their reasons to doubt.

Doubt is good, but it's not evidence.

From my reading of t he old thread (which I have finally finished), you guys towards the end of it really seemed to get along well, as compared to now. He would often provide evidence from which you would benefit, simply because he found it and it was relevant. He just 'digged', to use a phrase he loved in his occasional rant.

It's not impossible that Bedroom is older then its first written instance, but unlikely. That's all- there was already a word for bedroom that existed, and that's Bechamber. And, just as Kaddik, it's strange that a word would then transform into several more archaic forms, only to finally turn into something like a modern word. It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely.

[flashman7870]

A personal 'coincidence' (no proof of anything!) just for whoever might be interested.

According to Hidde Oera Linda, the year 1256 CE equals 3449 after Átland ("the old land") sank.

That means 2007 was 4200 after the sinking of Átland (7 x 600 years or 6 x 700 years).

Making a (JOL-) wheel with 700-year spokes, leaving out 'year zero':

2194 BCE - spoke 1

1494 BCE - spoke 2

0794 BCE - spoke 3

0094 BCE - spoke 4

0607 CE - spoke 5

1307 CE - spoke 6 *

2007 CE - spoke '7' or full circle = spoke 1 again

In 2007 I had a near-death experience that radically changed my life (for the better).

Until 2009 I had only vaguely heard about the OLB, not knowing any detail nor opinion about it.

* 1307 CE: October 13 (Friday the 13th, at dawn) – All Knights Templar in France are simultaneously arrested by agents of King Philip IV, to be later tortured into "confessing" heresy.

In the translation I'm reading, a Spoke was given as worth a thousand... six thousand years.... now where have I heard that before?

But nice find, Otharus. Are you aware of any events on the other dates?

Odd how it doesn't align with 1806 and Napoleon though....