Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Van Gorp]

Say comrades, this maybe have been talked over earlier in the thread, but how many (different) bad times are actually described or referred to in OLB in your opinion?

If I try to follow i tend to think of 3?

1) Geological: fire, flood, Aldland sank

• then Finda, Finns and Magy priests came in
  

2) Geological+moral, narrated by Frethorik: treason with the Magy, ..., the Magy was master without any resistance. This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland.

3) Moral bad time still to come from the east, out of the bossom of the priests. Left by Gosa some years after the bad time of Frethorik.

Now these are some related subject what i capture from the rest of the story:

Atland sinks, Finns and Magy in Twiskland:

Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force.

100 years after Aldland sank, Finns and Magy were in the back of Scandinavia, coming from the east.

"When they were well established, the Magyars sought our friendship, they praised our language and customs, our cattle and iron weapons, which they would willingly have exchanged for their gold and silver ornaments, and they always kept their people within their own boundaries, and that outwitted our watchfulness."

180 years after Aldland sank, Finns and Magy overran bigger parts by force, but where driven back

Only 1602 years after Aldland sank, Finns and Magyars took control of Denmark by infiltrating the culture of the Fryans and after Fryans started to trade iron weapons with them

Magy had become master of the east part of Scandinavia. They dare not come over the hills and over the sea. The mother would not prevent it. She said, I see no danger in their weapons, but much in taking the Scandinavians back again, because they are so degenerate and spoilt. The general assembly were of the same opinion. Therefore it was left to him. A good hundred years ago Denmark began to trade; they gave their iron weapons in exchange for gold ornaments, as well as for copper and iron-ore. The mother sent messengers to advise them to have nothing to do with this trade. There was danger to their morals in it, and if they lost their morals they would soon lose their liberty. But the Den-markers paid no attention to her. They did not believe that they could lose their morals, therefore they would not listen to her.

(Adela: "that our relatives on the other side of the Weser were dull and cowardly; but I may tell you that the Magy has not won a single village from them by force of arms; but only by detestable deceit, and still more by the rapacity of their dukes and nobles.")

Still some 280 years later (1888 years after Aldland) Magy priests take control of Ljudgaarda, again without any resistence (infiltration), and we have a second bad time in geological sense.

Am i interpreting correctly that Magy, Finns and Finda were sitting in back part of Scandinavia and Twiskland at latest in 180 after Aldland sank.

When well established were lurking for iron weapons,

which the Fryans only started to sell 1300 years later

and the gradually takeover of Denmark was fulfilled within 100 years?

As prelude for a further infiltration into Ljudgaarda, taking place 280 years later.

To be followed at last by the big infiltration of the priests from the east? (see Gosa)

The timespan seems for me rather big from the moment Magy came from the east to the actual infiltration professed by Gosa, while in other parts of the story in between actually very busy at infiltrating.

Not dismissing the accounts, but rather difficulties in not seeing some overlap.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Van Gorp

[The Puzzler]

Found something really interesting in the Doggerland Thread...

Could 'Jutland' or 'Utland' be derived from Atland or Aldland?

I don't believe so.

[Ott]

QVAÞ = KÉTH

Oldnorse (as often found in the Edda):

"oþinn qvaþ" - Odin spoke

The verb KÉTHA is used many times in the OLB. Some examples:

THA TO THA LESTA FRÉGE ÁDELA THÀT WIRD.

ÀNDE KÉTH.

THÁ KLIVADON HJA THA HÉRTOGA ÀND ÉTHELINGA AN BORD

ÀND KÉTHON

NÉI THISSE ÉWA ACHAT THA RJUCHTERA

HJARA ORDÉL UT TO KÉTHANDE

THÉR ORDÉLTH MÀN NÉI THA SIN

THÉR WR.ALDA.S GÁST AN VS KÉTH

THÁ STAND HEL.LÉNJA VP FON HIRA SÉTEL

ÀNDE KÉTH

etc.

Remarkable:

This word is found in the well-known Oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda 1786, Hettema 1832, Richthofen 1840), but not in the online 'bible' of (old-) Dutch and -Frisian language, the GTB.

[Ott]

Am i interpreting correctly that Magy, Finns and Finda were sitting in back part of Scandinavia and Twiskland at latest in 180 after Aldland sank.

When well established were lurking for iron weapons,

which the Fryans only started to sell 1300 years later

and the gradually takeover of Denmark was fulfilled within 100 years?

Good question VG.

I welcome more discussion about the actual content of the OLB, but don't have an answer to this at the moment.

[Ott]

A remarkable contradiction (or did this law change?):

[041/14] Minno's laws (SETMA and DOMAR) as copied at one of the citadels ca. 600 BCE

3. JAHWÉDER JONG KERDEL ÁCH EN BRUD TO SÉKA

ÀND IS ER FIF ÀND TWINTICH SA ÁCHTER EN WIF TO HÀVA.

3. Every young man ought to seek a bride

and is he five-and-twenty, he ought to have a wife.

[168/21] from short fragment by Béden, ca. 240 BCE?

KONE.RÉD MIN ÉM IS NIMMER BOSTIGJATH

ÀND ALSA BERNLÁS STURVEN.

Koneréd my uncle never got married

and thus died childless.

[flashman7870]

Good question VG.

I welcome more discussion about the actual content of the OLB, but don't have an answer to this at the moment.

Seems pretty obvious to me. The Finns occupied basically Bothnia/ Kvenland, at least from my reading of it- I recall a mention of them living in Uppalsa. They told the Schoonlanders they were pursued by nomadic herdsmen, and that's why they now lived there. But eventually they attacked the Schoonlanders, from which the war of Wotan, Inka and Teunis started. Wotan turned on them of course, and thus the Fryas lost all of Scandinavia. Though since the Scandinavians maintained a 'Fryan' appearance and certain myths (Namely Freyja), it appears that it was more of a cultural invasion rather then a genocidal one. Maybe it wasn't a war at all, but a replacing of Fryan with Finnish culture, which the Fryans were bitter about.

A remarkable contradiction (or did this law change?):

[041/14] Minno's laws (SETMA and DOMAR) as copied at one of the citadels ca. 600 BCE

3. JAHWÉDER JONG KERDEL ÁCH EN BRUD TO SÉKA

ÀND IS ER FIF ÀND TWINTICH SA ÁCHTER EN WIF TO HÀVA.

3. Every young man ought to seek a bride

and is he five-and-twenty, he ought to have a wife.

[168/21] from short fragment by Béden, ca. 240 BCE?

KONE.RÉD MIN ÉM IS NIMMER BOSTIGJATH

ÀND ALSA BERNLÁS STURVEN.

Koneréd my uncle never got married

and thus died childless.

Don't see it as a contradiction- Konred just didn't fulfill his duties.

[Van Gorp]

:-)

Are you really pondering on the same subjects?

Concerning the Finns/Magyars and the cultural demise they brought with them: it is the timespan that seems not to be obvious to me at all.

Concerning Othar's mentionning of the likely contradiction: if Konred just did not fulfill his duties, what should have been the consequences?

[Ott]

[041/14] Minno's laws (SETMA and DOMAR) as copied at one of the citadels ca. 600 BCE

3. JAHWÉDER JONG KERDEL ÁCH EN BRUD TO SÉKA

ÀND IS ER FIF ÀND TWINTICH SA ÁCHTER EN WIF TO HÀVA.

3. Every young man ought to seek a bride

and is he five-and-twenty, he ought to have a wife.

The fragment continues thus:

4. IS HWA FIF ÀND TVINTICH ÀND HETH ER NÉN ÉNGÁ

SÁ ACH EK MAN HIM UT SIN HUS TO WÉRANE.

THA KNÁPA ACHON HIN TE FORMYDA.

NIMTH ER THÀN NACH NÉN ÉNGÁ

SA MOT MÀN HIN DÁD SÉZA TILTHJU HI UT OF LANDE BRÛDE

ÀND HIR NÉN ÀRGENESE NÉVA NE MÉI.

Sandbach's liberal translation:

4. If a young man is not married at five-and-twenty,

he must be driven from his [every] home,

and the younger men must avoid him.

If then he [still] will not marry,

he must be declared dead, and leave the country,

so that he may not give offence.

So according to that law, it's more serious than just not fulfilling one's duty.

And this uncle Koneréd apparently still had an honorable position.

[Van Gorp]

QVAÞ = KÉTH

Oldnorse (as often found in the Edda):

"oþinn qvaþ" - Odin spoke

The verb KÉTHA is used many times in the OLB. Some examples:

THA TO THA LESTA FRÉGE ÁDELA THÀT WIRD.

ÀNDE KÉTH.

THÁ KLIVADON HJA THA HÉRTOGA ÀND ÉTHELINGA AN BORD

ÀND KÉTHON

NÉI THISSE ÉWA ACHAT THA RJUCHTERA

HJARA ORDÉL UT TO KÉTHANDE

THÉR ORDÉLTH MÀN NÉI THA SIN

THÉR WR.ALDA.S GÁST AN VS KÉTH

THÁ STAND HEL.LÉNJA VP FON HIRA SÉTEL

ÀNDE KÉTH

etc.

Remarkable:

This word is found in the well-known Oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda 1786, Hettema 1832, Richthofen 1840), but not in the online 'bible' of (old-) Dutch and -Frisian language, the GTB.

The first resemblance I could think of when seeing "qvaþ" is the dutch word "kwetteren" (tateren, speaking out loud).

[Ott]

The first resemblance I could think of when seeing "qvaþ" is the dutch word "kwetteren" (tateren, speaking out loud).

Excellent VG, you helped me find it on GTB after all:

kwethan

kwethen

queden

[Ott]

Howcome this word (still very common in OLB) have virtually disappeared from our languages?

The first thing that comes to my mind is that it may have been considered (in christian times) a ketters (heretical) word...

[flashman7870]

:-)

Are you really pondering on the same subjects?

Concerning the Finns/Magyars and the cultural demise they brought with them: it is the timespan that seems not to be obvious to me at all.

Concerning Othar's mentionning of the likely contradiction: if Konred just did not fulfill his duties, what should have been the consequences?

To the former; I think that it tells us that the Fryans probably never had massive holdings in Scandinavia- aside from southern Sweden and Norway, the rest was probably filled with scattered Burchs, outlaws and whatever people inhabited Scandinavia before the Fryans. Basques, maybe. Heh, who knows, maybe the Magyars occupied Europe before the Fryans arose.

[flashman7870]

The fragment continues thus:

4. IS HWA FIF ÀND TVINTICH ÀND HETH ER NÉN ÉNGÁ

SÁ ACH EK MAN HIM UT SIN HUS TO WÉRANE.

THA KNÁPA ACHON HIN TE FORMYDA.

NIMTH ER THÀN NACH NÉN ÉNGÁ

SA MOT MÀN HIN DÁD SÉZA TILTHJU HI UT OF LANDE BRÛDE

ÀND HIR NÉN ÀRGENESE NÉVA NE MÉI.

Sandbach's liberal translation:

4. If a young man is not married at five-and-twenty,

he must be driven from his [every] home,

and the younger men must avoid him.

If then he [still] will not marry,

he must be declared dead, and leave the country,

so that he may not give offence.

So according to that law, it's more serious than just not fulfilling one's duty.

And this uncle Koneréd apparently still had an honorable position.

It could be something that's, at least 300 years hence, not really seen as much of a crime. Maybe rather then driving out of the home, it's just looked on as queer, discouraged. Think of being gay in 1714 as opposed to 2014- well, in the west at least. Then 1414 as compared to 1714.... social expectations change alot, even if there based out of 'Holy' texts like Frya's.

EDIT: It's important to remember that Fryas Folk were just people. For all there talk of honor and freedom, I'm sure they ahd there fiar share of exceptions.

Abramelin used to talk alot about making a 'lost' part of the OLB. It would be interesting to do something based on a Findan point of view, showing off there own virtues and the flaws of the Fryans.

Edited November 12, 2014 by flashman7870

[flashman7870]

Howcome this word (still very common in OLB) have virtually disappeared from our languages?

The first thing that comes to my mind is that it may have been considered (in christian times) a ketters (heretical) word...

https://www.google.com/search?q=bequeath&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#safe=active&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=sb&q=bequeath+etymology

First thing I thought of. 'Bequeath' means to pass down (often in a written will). Oddly appropriate...

[Ott]

... making a 'lost' part of the OLB.

If the 190 pages would be of 19th century fabrication, it should be relatively easy to create only 1 page now, as we have much more knowledge and techniques at our disposal.

Yet no one has ever dared to even try it.

That is because it is simply too difficult.

If it is too difficult now, it was impossible in the 19th century.

... the flaws of the Fryans.

Yes, several examples of that could be given.

OLB describes a civilisation in decline.

[flashman7870]

It would be no harder then any other worldbuild/ conlang project. I think that Abramelin probably could if he put odwn the bottle. He was able to make one inspirational quote in a fake Frisian dialect- 'Wi Frisar', from a snippet of the Rustringer Codex that he could not found the original old Frisian for. That's a far cry from even one page of the OLB, though, obviously.

Another problem is if the Finda actually are all related, then why are Afro-Asiatic, East Asian, Dravidian, Finno-Ugric etc so different? Something we'd have to come up with an explanation for. Presumably we'd write it in some sort of Old Finnic. Maybe aside from Steppe Folk, only the highest Priests/ scholars know the old tongue.

"Aahti, Poikenn-

Mÿnna tachton gernast spuho somen gelen Emÿna daÿda. Ne Fryers esdaevet meituh."

It would be no harder then any other worldbuild/ conlang project. I think that Abramelin probably could if he put odwn the bottle. He was able to make one inspirational quote in a fake Frisian dialect- 'Wi Frisar', from a snippet of the Rustringer Codex that he could not found the original old Frisian for. That's a far cry from even one page of the OLB, though, obviously.

Another problem is if the Finda actually are all related, then why are Afro-Asiatic, East Asian, Dravidian, Finno-Ugric etc so different? Something we'd have to come up with an explanation for. Presumably we'd write it in some sort of Old Finnic. Maybe aside from Steppe Folk, only the highest Priests/ scholars know the old tongue.

"Aahti, Poikenn-

Mÿnna tachton gernast spuho somen gelen Emÿna daÿda. Ne Fryers esdaevet meituh."

[flashman7870]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Agricola

I think I found a writer for my Finnish OLB...

'Sigh', I wish I spoke Finnish now... even modern Finnish. Unless I get the help of one who deos, this probably won't be finished, due to my total lack of understanding on the language.

[Ott]

When the Spaniards came to Peru, Heyerdahl [1914-2002] asserted, the Incas told them that the colossal monuments that stood deserted about the landscape were erected by a race of white gods who had lived there before the Incas themselves became rulers.

The Incas described these "white gods" as wise, peaceful instructors who had originally come from the north in the "morning of time" and taught the Incas' primitive forefathers architecture as well as manners and customs. They were unlike other Native Americans in that they had "white skins and long beards" and were taller than the Incas.

The Incas said that the "white gods" had then left as suddenly as they had come and fled westward across the Pacific. After they had left, the Incas themselves took over power in the country.

atlanteangardens/quetzalcoatl-kukulkan-viracocha-votan

OLB translation Sandbach (1876), p.81:

Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda's people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

[The Puzzler]

When the Spaniards came to Peru, Heyerdahl [1914-2002] asserted, the Incas told them that the colossal monuments that stood deserted about the landscape were erected by a race of white gods who had lived there before the Incas themselves became rulers.

The Incas described these "white gods" as wise, peaceful instructors who had originally come from the north in the "morning of time" and taught the Incas' primitive forefathers architecture as well as manners and customs. They were unlike other Native Americans in that they had "white skins and long beards" and were taller than the Incas.

The Incas said that the "white gods" had then left as suddenly as they had come and fled westward across the Pacific. After they had left, the Incas themselves took over power in the country.

atlanteangardens/quetzalcoatl-kukulkan-viracocha-votan

OLB translation Sandbach (1876), p.81:

Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda's people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

Spanish chroniclers from the 16th century claimed that when the conquistadors led by Francisco Pizarro first encountered the Incas they were greeted as gods, "Viracochas", because their lighter skin resembled their god Viracocha.^[12] This story was first reported by Pedro Cieza de León (1553) and later by Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa. Similar accounts by Spanish chroniclers (e.g. Juan de Betanzos) describe Viracocha as a "White God", often with a beard.^[13] The whiteness of Viracocha is however not mentioned in the native authentic legends of the Incas and most modern scholars therefore consider the "White God" story to be post-conquest Spanish invention.

Wiracochan, the pilgrim preacher of knowledge, the master knower of time, is described as a person with superhuman power, a tall man, with short hair, dressed like a priest or an astronomer with tunic and a bonnet with four pointed corners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viracocha

[Ott]

A translation error by Ottema (1872), translated by Sandbach (1876).

Correction in bold green.

[original manuscript p. 38, line 8]

HJRA BYLDNESE STÀLDON HJA VPPA HJARA ÀLTÀRUM

JEFTHA HJA VRSELLADE.T ANDA DVMA MÀNNISKA.

HJA KÉTHON ALLERWÉIKES RÉDJÉVINGA.

THÉR HJU NIMMER JÉVEN HÉDE.

ÀND TÀLADON WONDERA.

THÉR HJU NA DÉN HÉDE.

[Ottema p.55]

Zij stelden haar beeld op hunne altaren,

zij verkondigden of verkochten

aan de domme menschen allerwegen raadgevingen

of ze verkochten het aan de domme mensen.

Ze verkondigden allerwegen (overal) raadgevingen,

die zij nimmer gegeven had,

en vertelden wonderen

die zij nooit gedaan had.

[sandbach p.55]

They erected statues to her on all their altars,

they announced and sold

to the simple people advice

or sold them to the simple people.

They announced ('allways'; everywhere) advice,

that she had never given,

and related miracles

that she had never performed.

[Abramelin]

From my reading of t he old thread (which I have finally finished), you guys towards the end of it really seemed to get along well, as compared to now. He would often provide evidence from which you would benefit, simply because he found it and it was relevant. He just 'digged', to use a phrase he loved in his occasional rant.

It's not impossible that Bedroom is older then its first written instance, but unlikely. That's all- there was already a word for bedroom that existed, and that's Bechamber. And, just as Kaddik, it's strange that a word would then transform into several more archaic forms, only to finally turn into something like a modern word. It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely.

Is there already an explanation for the OLB "FO" meaning "false", while the only language where FO has this meaning is (modern) French?

In French it is written as FAUX, btw.

The OLB literally says that the meaning of the nickname Fo is 'false'.

Maybe next time, when I come back to the internet café, I will read an enlightening answer.

[Passing Time]

Hi Guys and Gal , i am sad to see the thread has lost it's steam , i was very happy to be involved with it for a short time compared

to you others , i previously posted as NO-ID-EA , but unfortunately lost my computer and a whole lot more in a break in at my flat , so it has taken me all this time to get back on line.......i hope you are all just on a sabatical , and i have not missed the boat .

my regards to you all.

[SSilhouette]

Oh brother...not again..

[Van Gorp]

Hi Guys and Gal , i am sad to see the thread has lost it's steam , i was very happy to be involved with it for a short time compared

to you others , i previously posted as NO-ID-EA , but unfortunately lost my computer and a whole lot more in a break in at my flat , so it has taken me all this time to get back on line.......i hope you are all just on a sabatical , and i have not missed the boat .

my regards to you all.

Just a deep medidation :-)

Like Abe: he is for sure pondering on the possibility how on earth OLB may have hinted on the Gaulish Druid-Brahmin Priest connection.

What the hick: they spoke french! :-)

[flashman7870]

Is there already an explanation for the OLB "FO" meaning "false", while the only language where FO has this meaning is (modern) French?

In French it is written as FAUX, btw.

The OLB literally says that the meaning of the nickname Fo is 'false'.

Maybe next time, when I come back to the internet café, I will read an enlightening answer.

I know, I speak French, lol, or at least I'm semi-literate

I suppose it makes some sense. I mean, it's obviously a fake and this is an indication thereof, but since the Fryans settled Rome, that is, Spacious, why not have some Fryan word slip in as FAllaxes?