Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

"Het meest aannemelijk is dat het terug gaat op Italiaans bast.ardo 'wilde loot' bij Latijn bastum 'staaf, stok', dat overdrachtelijk staat voor 'buitenechtelijk kind'. Cognaten: Oudfries basterd, Ontlening uit Frans bast.ard ‘onwettig kind’.

The most plausible is that it goes back to Italian bast.ardo 'wild (off)shoot' in Latin bastum 'rod, stick', which metaphorically stands for "illegitimate child". Cognates: Old Frisian bast.ard, Borrowing from French bast.ard 'illegitimate child'.

(dot inside word added by me)

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=ONW&id=ID739

Gestur, you did't explain where the -ard part came from.

-ard

also -art, from Old French -ard, -art, from German -hard, -hart "hardy," forming the second element in many personal names, often used as an intensifier, but in Middle High German and Dutch used as a pejorative element in common nouns, and thus passing into Middle English in bast.ard, coward, blaffard ("one who stammers"), etc. It thus became a living element in English, e.g. buzzard, drunkard.

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[Ott]

Gestur, you did't explain where the -ard part came from.

It was a quicky, right after I had woken up.

VRBASTERA SVNUM - degenerate (bastardised) sons (1)

VRBASTERE STÉDJAR - degenerate townspeople (5)

VRBASTERDE SLACHT - degenerate race (6)

VRBASTERDE FOLK - degenerate race/ people (15)

VNFORBASTERE SÉD - unbastardised (pure) morals (10)

VNFORBASTERE BERN - unbastardised children (11)

BÁSTERA BERN - ba$t@rd children (4)

BASTRED FOLK - ba$t@rd race/ people (13)

BASTERD BLOD - ba$t@rd/ mixed blood (2,8)

BASTERDE BLOD - idem (3)

FON BASTERDE BLODE - of mixed blood (9)

SIND BASTERED - are (have been) mixed/ degenerated (7,12)

HÀVON BASTRED - have degenerated (14)

noun:

BAST (bark, peel, husk, skin)

verb:

BASTERA - basteren? (to peel off?)

VR.BASTERA, FOR.BASTERA - verbasteren (bastardise, degenerate)

past perfect, adjective, noun:

BASTERED, BASTRED (bastardised, degenerated)

VNFORBASTERE (unbastardised, pure)

==>> so, while it is indeed compelling to think in the direction of Bast-aard (aard = nature, character, kind, personality), I think it is rather from past perfect, that turned into adjective and noun.

Similar to:

versluieren - versluierd

afpoeieren - afgepoeierd

verkankeren - verkankerd

etc.

(ver-)basteren - (ver-)basterd

[Ott]

[...] conversations about whether the Tresoar copy is the original 13th C copy or not

I don't remember a discussion about that.

Personally, I don't have any reason to believe that the Tresoar copy is NOT the original 13th C. copy.

and also on the page numbering , as it seems page 4 , is not the reverse side of page 3 etc

Page 3 was photographed with other pages under it, so one has to look close to see that it is actually the reverse side of page 4.

it has always seemed lucky/weird , that in the Okke min sunne letter , that the writing on both sides of the page starts under the torn part of the page , as if it was originally written on a damaged leaf ??

Interesting observation.

Yes, that makes sense.

[Abramelin]

It was a quicky, right after I had woken up.

noun:

BAST (bark, peel, husk, skin)

verb:

BASTERA - basteren? (to peel off?)

VR.BASTERA, FOR.BASTERA - verbasteren (bastardise, degenerate)

past perfect, adjective, noun:

BASTERED, BASTRED (bastardised, degenerated)

VNFORBASTERE (unbastardised, pure)

==>> so, while it is indeed compelling to think in the direction of Bast-aard (aard = nature, character, kind, personality), I think it is rather from past perfect, that turned into adjective and noun.

Similar to:

versluieren - versluierd

afpoeieren - afgepoeierd

verkankeren - verkankerd

etc.

(ver-)basteren - (ver-)basterd

Your examples are past participles.

The -ard suffix in my former post suggests a pejorative element in common nouns

[Ott]

The -ard suffix in my former post suggests a pejorative element in common nouns

Can you explain in Dutch what your point is?

---

perhaps conform MOST - MOSTERD?

mosterd zn. ‘kruiderij uit zaad van een mosterdplant (Sinapis alba of Brassica nigra)’

Mnl. mostard, mostart, mostert in mostart “sinapis” (mosterdplant) [1240; Bern.], asyne mostarde ende casen ‘azijn, mosterd en kaas’ [1286; VMNW]; vnnl. mostaerd ‘mosterd’ [1562; Naembouck], mostaert oft sennep ‘mosterd’ [1573; Thes.], mostert ‘sterke kruiderij’ [ca. 1615; WNT]; vnnl. zo mengt men mosterd onder de saus ‘dan mengt men mosterd door de saus’ [1746; WNT wijnazijn].

Ontleend aan Oudfrans mostarde ‘kruiderij van geplette mosterdzaden met azijn of wijnmost’ (Nieuwfrans moutarde), afleiding van Oudfrans most ‘ongegist druivensap, jonge wijn’ (Nieuwfrans moût) < Latijn mustum. De mosterd is dus niet genoemd naar de grondstof waaruit, maar naar de most waarmee hij bereid werd. Ook Nederlands most ‘ongegist druivensap’ [1608; WNT] is via Oudfrans most ontleend aan Latijn mustum ‘id.’.

Latijn mustum ‘ongegist druivensap, jonge wijn’ is de onzijdige vorm van mustus ‘vers, nieuw’, van verder onbekende herkomst.

In de Belgische dialecten komt nog steeds de oorspr. vorm mostaard voor, met niet-verdofte -aa-.

Er bestaan ook namen die via Frans sénevé ‘mosterd(plant)’, sanve ‘wilde mosterd’ wel teruggaan op de naam van de Zuid-Europese mosterdplant, Latijn sinapis: verouderd en dialectisch Nederlands zennep, Middelnederlands senep, sennep [ca. 1460; MNW], Oudengels senep, Duits Senf, Zweeds senap, Gotisch (gen.) sinapis.

http://etymologieban...efwoord/mosterd Edited April 12, 2013 by gestur

[Abramelin]

Your -aard, -ard, or -erd (last post) means: 'with the characteristic(s) of'

The examples in your former to last post were past participles.

My -ard is from

-ard

also -art, from Old French -ard, -art, from German -hard, -hart "hardy," forming the second element in many personal names, often used as an intensifier, but in Middle High German and Dutch used as a pejorative element in common nouns, and thus passing into Middle English in bast.ard, coward, blaffard ("one who stammers"), etc. It thus became a living element in English, e.g. buzzard, drunkard.

The -erd in 'mosterd' has nothing to do with being pejorative, unfavorable.

[Ott]

I can easily imagine similar words from dialect (uncivilised dutch) like:

denkerd, goeierd, knapperd, bangert, kijkerd, lopert, etc.

As you can see, not all pejorative and some derived from nouns.

[NO-ID-EA]

I don't remember a discussion about that.

Personally, I don't have any reason to believe that the Tresoar copy is NOT the original 13th C. copy.

Page 3 was photographed with other pages under it, so one has to look close to see that it is actually the reverse side of page 4.

Interesting observation.

Yes, that makes sense.

Ok , Yes i can see what you mean , it only looks different because of the sheet underneath.................do you think the same is true though of page 100-27 and 100-28 which looks to me as though 100-41 and 100-42 look better matches . ??

Also re the tresour copy being an original .. i only ask because , if you go to tresour pagina 196 ,( ie not oera linda page no this time ) where they just show a copy of the book on an old scribes table , the copy of the book looks like the paper is much whiter , and it may be an optical illusion , but the pages also look narrower and longer than on the next page .....what do you think.

[Abramelin]

I can easily imagine similar words from dialect (uncivilised dutch) like:

denkerd, goeierd, knapperd, bangert, kijkerd, lopert, etc.

As you can see, not all pejorative and some derived from nouns.

Yes, and all ending with -erd, not -ard or -aard.

[Ott]

Yes, and all ending with -erd, not -ard or -aard.

There is no difference.

You should read more old texts to find out how variable spelling always has been until quite recently.

mosterd ... mostard, mostart, mostert ... mostarde ... mostaerd ... afleiding van Oudfrans most ‘...

In de Belgische dialecten komt nog steeds de oorspr. vorm mostaard voor...

Summary

The verb to bastardise and the noun basterd (-ard) are derived from BAST (bark, peel, husk, skin)

See here , here and here.

[Ott]

it only looks different because of the sheet underneath.................do you think the same is true though of page 100-27 and 100-28 which looks to me as though 100-41 and 100-42 look better matches . ??

Very well observed.

Yes, I think it has indeed to do with what sheet lies underneeth.

This is very confusing.

The photographer should have taken every page seperately.

if you go to tresour pagina 196 ... the copy of the book looks like the paper is much whiter , and it may be an optical illusion , but the pages also look narrower and longer than on the next page .....what do you think.

I think that is just the lightning and no, to me it doesn't look like the width-length ratio is different.

The perspective creates that illusion.

[Ott]

Yes, I think it has indeed to do with what sheet lies underneeth.

The two sheets (4 pages) may actually be connected together, as being part of the same section or gathering. (bookbinding term)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_%28bookbinding%29

[Abramelin]

There is no difference.

You should read more old texts to find out how variable spelling always has been until quite recently.

Summary

The verb to bastardise and the noun basterd (-ard) are derived from BAST (bark, peel, husk, skin)

See here , here and here.

It's a loanword from Old Frankish/French.

.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

My opinion about Bastaard:

Modern usage:

Bastaard: in Dutch nowadays more used in context of 'unreal' (or whatever you call it)

Bastrd: in English also for scolding (what a ....)

Used to term things in context of unreal can be a application of the general scolding name.

Reason could be:

Bast-rd comes from bast (touw, rope made of bark of trees), see bengel in dutch -> hanging on/of the rope (eg slaves, criminals), hence bastrd

Bastaard (not proper belonging to) -> both meaning of hanging and bark -> 'foreign' crop hanging on the bark (family-tree)

[NO-ID-EA]

Very well observed.

Yes, I think it has indeed to do with what sheet lies underneeth.

This is very confusing.

The photographer should have taken every page seperately.

I think that is just the lightning and no, to me it doesn't look like the width-length ratio is different.

The perspective creates that illusion.

none of those 4 pages seem to have a page under the edges you have shown, that means that either 127 should be numbered 141 to match 142......or that 142 should be numbered 128 to match 127 ???? how would that work , does it mean the photographer only numbered them as he was photographing them in the wrong order ??

what do you mean by, its something to do with the binding , please explain further , for instance pages 73 and 74 follow each other ok , as do 61 and 62 , you can tell clearly from the pattern of marks on the edges of each .and i presume most of the others do .

i only noticed these two pages because the tears are pronounced, and you are right that quite a lot are caused by pages put underneath to hide unsightly tears , but if i found these two are there many other pages in the wrong order ??.........or have you got a different explanation ??

Where are all the antiquarian booksellers when you need one .

PS. and you are right about the book on the table being the same as the brown page book .page 47 of both images of the book , with the linda numbers on the top has those same 4 notches on the bottom of the page

Edited April 12, 2013 by NO-ID-EA

[NO-ID-EA]

The paper used is also very thin , or very porous as on many pages you can see the writing coming through from the reverse page . at first i thought it may have been the newly completed page still wet being placed on the last page completed , and it blotting onto it , but it is not it is coming through from the reverse side of the page .

you can see this on page 47 , by the number 8 of the reverse page 48 feintly beside the 47 , and then beside the number 9 in the circle you can see that the 1st two lines of the next page feintly show they both begin with the letter A , and page 48 shows that they do.

[NO-ID-EA]

It just occurred to me i can use the letters/ink coming through the pages to see if these page no.s are wrong or not !

On checking the letters where the ink has come through on pages 127 and 128 , and 141 and 142 , they are both the reverse pages as they should be , so the only

explanation for the weird match up of the torn page sides , must be from the pages used underneath to cover rips and tears.

[Ott]

It's a loanword from Old Frankish/French.

bastarður - icelandic

The Icelandic language does not accept loanwords.

Why would it borrow from the Franks anyway?

It was never conquered by them as we have been.

[Ott]

what do you mean by, its something to do with the binding , please explain further

That the sheets are connected like this:

_______________________

|128 . . . | . . . 141|

| . . . . .|. . . . . |

|. . . . . | . . . . .|

Other side:

_______________________

|142 . . . | . . . 127|

| . . . . .|. . . . . |

|. . . . . | . . . . .|

This is what I meant, but now I get doubts. They would not have folded the sheet in the wrong direction, just to make the photo.

Edited April 13, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

Alternative possibly is that the word is from Proto-Germanic *banstiz "barn," equally suggestive of low origin.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=b******

[Ott]

Alternative possibly is that the word is from Proto-Germanic ...

'Proto-Germanic' is not a language, but a reconstruction.

[NO-ID-EA]

could it have come from Bastet , the name of a leonine headed Egyptian Goddess of war, and protectoress of lands in lower Egypt , the Bastet cult moved out of Egypt to Arabia and Greece, and in Aramean became Ebstt , and in Greece Ailurus (goddess of the Cat....( bring to mind Catlip ,? Cat-lif or cat lives ? ) and also Obest , and Ubesti in various places

The Bastet cult grew in a town called BuBastis, hebrew name Pi-Baset , it was mentioned extensively by Herodotus who visited BuBastis in 530 BC .who said the town was on an island in the nile , where the whole town on hills looked down into the temple which was in the centre , with a square stone wall , each of a furlong , carved with figures all around it , in a grove of tall trees was a shrine and a road to the temple of Hermes.

He said it looked like the temple of Mut in Karnak ,and at the times of Bastet sacrifice days , it was visited by up to 700,000 people who all came in crowded ships , it could only be attended by men and women (no children were allowed ) as they were festivals of Music, dancing, and song , wine and drunkenness ( plenty of opportunity for later Bastets then )great sacrifices were made , and Bastet was appeased by the feasts of drunkenness.

Bastet was often depicted holding a sistrum and a collar called an aegis with a lioness head attatched. because she was the lioness war goddess of lower egypt , and they lost most of their wars against upper egypt , she slowly changed from a lioness war goddess to a cat goddess , and became thought of more as a goddess depicting a good mother , and was usually depicted with numerous kittens.

during greek occupation she was called AiluRos , and the greeks regarded her as the sister of HoRus, whom they identified as Apollo.

[Ott]

could it have come from Bastet , the name of a leonine headed Egyptian Goddess...

That name must originally have had a meaning too.

I'd rather think that this name is derived from BAST too.

[Apol]

The answer is BAST (bark, peel, husk) of a ('family') tree.

The least valuable part of a tree (or nut), that what peels off easily.

[167/29]

BY VS WERTHAT NOCHTA FONDEN LIK BERN HÁVEDA SA GRÁT.

THÉR SIT TSÍS ÀND MELOK IN.

WERTHAT SE ALD

SA MÁKTH MÀN THER OLJA FON. ~

FON THA BASTUM MÁKTH MÀN TÁW

ÀND FON THA KERNUM

MÁKTH MÀN CHELKA ÀND OR GERÁD.

Ottema-Sandbach p.227

Bij ons worden noten gevonden zoo groot als kinderhoofden;

daar zit kaas en melk in;

worden ze oud

dan maakt men er olie van;

van de bast maakt men touw,

en van de kernen

maakt men kelken en ander huisraad.

In our country there are nuts as large as a child's head.

They contain cheese and milk.

When they are old

oil is made from them.

Of the husks ropes are made,

and of the shells

cups and other household utensils are made.

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/bast

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=bast

=> So BAST also meant something of lesser value.

Metaphorically, from the peel of a tree or nut.

It is strange that bast was regarded as being something totally useless, at the same time as one in ancient times used the bast from lime trees for the making of ropes.

[Ott]

It is strange that bast was regarded as being something totally useless, at the same time as one in ancient times used the bast from lime trees for the making of ropes.

Not totally useless, but of lesser value than the stronger wood.

(In OLB rope is made from the 'bastum' of coconuts.)