Abramelin Posted September 30, 2012 Author #1126 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Because cape is a later word than cap. It's related to cap, my wording was bad. cape (n.1) garment, O.E. capa, from L.L. cappa "cape, hooded cloak" (see cap (n.)). Latin and English cappa/capa derived from cap but does not MEAN cap. Don't forget Frisian is closer to English unless you want to think Old Dutch is in the OLB. We should have checked the Old Frisian dictionary first: kappe 1, afries ( =old Frisian)., F.: nhd. »Kappe«, Mantel; ne. coat (N.); Hw.: vgl. an. kõpa, ae. cappa, cÏppe, as. kappa*, ahd. kapfa; E.: germ. *kappa?, F., Kappe, Hut (M.); s. lat. cappa, F., Kappe, Mantel; weitere Herkunft unklar; W.: nfries. kaepe; W.: saterl. cappe; W.: nnordfries. kaap; http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-K.pdf So "kappe" is what you said, Puzz: a coat, or a cloak in this case. But 'papekappe' still could mean something negative. I prefer to call priests 'zwartrokken' or black robes, and then I am not being complimentary.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 30, 2012 #1127 Share Posted September 30, 2012 We should have checked the Old Frisian dictionary first: kappe 1, afries ( =old Frisian)., F.: nhd. »Kappe«, Mantel; ne. coat (N.); Hw.: vgl. an. kõpa, ae. cappa, cÏppe, as. kappa*, ahd. kapfa; E.: germ. *kappa?, F., Kappe, Hut (M.); s. lat. cappa, F., Kappe, Mantel; weitere Herkunft unklar; W.: nfries. kaepe; W.: saterl. cappe; W.: nnordfries. kaap; http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-K.pdf So "kappe" is what you said, Puzz: a coat, or a cloak in this case. But 'papekappe' still could mean something negative. I prefer to call priests 'zwartrokken' or black robes, and then I am not being complimentary.... Thanks for that. Black robes, like the grim reaper lol, fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted September 30, 2012 #1128 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Don't forget Frisian is closer to English unless you want to think Old Dutch is in the OLB. The language of the OLB is close to what is called Oldfrisian, but it has enough elements that are closer to other languages. Some words and structures are actually closer to Dutch than to Frisian. (And that will have been one of the reasons why many Frisians forcefully rejected it.) Also note there are still some unknown words in OLB. If we assume that the OLB was written in the 19th century, than the author(s) probably knew KAPPE from Richthofen's Oldfrisian dictionary. But if it is authentic, the other interpretation is also valid. It could even have been meant to be ambiguous! Let me add that it is not how I think about Catholics and I never claimed that it was the only right interpretation. But it is a new possible interpretation which would fit perfectly in the context. (I also know that my grandparents would have shatterlaughed about it.) ~ ~ ~ Last week I attended a very interesting lecture about the origin of present day Dutch language (both from Netherlands and Belgium). Unification of language only started in the late 16th century, mostly influenced by a new Protestant Bible translation (Statenbijbel, first published in 1637) and the rise of printing press. Kiliaan (1599) made the first dictionary, made with that goal, to unify the countless and strongly varying dialects. To create a standard. We are used to the idea of a national language, but there was no standard Old-Dutch nor Old-Frisian. Even in present day Friesland I have noticed that there are significant differences between various dialects and the same goes for Flanders. People from different regions hardly understand each other when they speak fast. Also, important to know, many of them dialects do not have a written tradition, they merely exist orally! ~ Anyway my point is that in translating there are often several possibilities and in this case it is a matter of taste, which one is chosen. Not a matter of right or wrong. Edited September 30, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted September 30, 2012 #1129 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Frisian is closer to English English is closer to Frisian than to Dutch, but Dutch is closer to Frisian than English. something like this: English - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frisian - - - - Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 30, 2012 #1130 Share Posted September 30, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 30, 2012 #1131 Share Posted September 30, 2012 English is closer to Frisian than to Dutch, but Dutch is closer to Frisian than English. something like this: English - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frisian - - - - Dutch Yes, true. No Dutch words should be in the OLB, if it's authentic, only words that went into Dutch from Frisian. Like stof for instance - no way will that be a Dutch variant meaning dust - it will be what became English stuff, which would have been an original Frisian word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted September 30, 2012 #1132 Share Posted September 30, 2012 No Dutch words should be in the OLB, if it's authentic, only words that went into Dutch from Frisian. You don't get it. If OLB language is authentic, then some words will have survived in Dutch only, others in Frisian or Flemish, or Swedish, German, English, etcetera. Some words will have survived in several languages, others in none at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted September 30, 2012 #1133 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Like stof for instance - no way will that be a Dutch variant meaning dust - it will be what became English stuff, which would have been an original Frisian word. I don't agree. Why are you so dogmatic? Language is not mathematics. substance <--- STOF ---> dust . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . \/ . . . . . . . fabric "Stof" in Dutch can have all 3 meanings! It may have been like that for many ages. We just don't know. There are many examples of words that evolved into various different meanings. Example: "Verstaan" in NL-Dutch means "to hear" (can you hear me? no speak louder please). In German "verstehen" means "to understand". In Belgian-Dutch it can mean both. Edited September 30, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 30, 2012 #1134 Share Posted September 30, 2012 You don't get it. Don't I? Without looking at the Frisian Dictionary I knew kappe was cloak, maybe it's you who is not getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 30, 2012 #1135 Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) I don't agree. Why are you so dogmatic? Language is not mathematics. substance <--- STOF ---> dust . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . \/ . . . . . . . fabric "Stof" in Dutch can have all 3 meanings! It may have been like that for many ages. We just don't know. There are many examples of words that evolved into various different meanings. Example: "Verstaan" in NL-Dutch means "to hear" (can you hear me? no speak louder please). In German "verstehen" means "to understand". In Belgian-Dutch it can mean both. Because stof as in dust comes from stuven, or however it's spelt. Stuff comes from estoffer in Old French - but you should ask yourself, if you truly believe the OLB, how did it get into Old French and why is the OLB using it? See, I actually believe that Frisian IS an original language like the OLB says it is and can account for the words coming in via other languages after going out earlier from Frisian itself. Then it shows up in that language and we go, it's an Old French word, but is it really? Not if it's a true Frisian word - if you don't believe this, how can you possibly accept the OLB as authentic? Maybe I'm so dogmatic because I am logical, like Mr Spock. Edited September 30, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 30, 2012 #1136 Share Posted September 30, 2012 stof is not in the Frisian dictionary, but when the OLB was written it should have been part of the Frisian language and may now be an unused word - so the Old French estoffer in that context, should derive from a more original word, which is stop. Blow me down: sto-p-p-ia 1 und häufiger?, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. stopfen; ne. stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted September 30, 2012 #1137 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Maybe I'm so dogmatic because I am logical You don't know what logic is. Remember: Recap of your flawed reasoning:- cape comes from cap - kappe is related to cape - kappe is NOT related to cap For someone who likes to associate herself with a genius, you are too sure of yourself. OLB is not for people who don't like (self-) doubt. Even if it would be accepted as authentic, there would still be loads of questions left. I will no longer waste my time with you. BTW that kappe can mean cap or cape is self-evident for anyone who knows dutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted September 30, 2012 Author #1138 Share Posted September 30, 2012 "I will no longer waste my time with you" Why the arrogance? You know I rarely agree with Puzz, but I would never put her down like that. She has ideas, you have ideas, I have ideas. And like I have said many times, we will be dancing around eachother like this until they find some definite archeological or historical proof of either the OLB being a hoax, or it being a true account of ancient European history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted October 1, 2012 #1139 Share Posted October 1, 2012 You don't know what logic is. Remember: For someone who likes to associate herself with a genius, you are too sure of yourself. OLB is not for people who don't like (self-) doubt. Even if it would be accepted as authentic, there would still be loads of questions left. I will no longer waste my time with you. BTW that kappe can mean cap or cape is self-evident for anyone who knows dutch. OK whatever, I'm one of the most polite, nicest people on this forum So I didn't use the exact right words for you to understand but anyone with half a brain could see I knew cape was related to cap. - cape comes from cap - kappe is related to cape - kappe is NOT related to cap YOU didn't get it is the problem, as I said kappe in this instance is cape not cap, because English doesn't have an e on our word cap is how I knew kappe had to be cape. Act like a baby then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted October 1, 2012 #1140 Share Posted October 1, 2012 "I will no longer waste my time with you" Why the arrogance? You know I rarely agree with Puzz, but I would never put her down like that. She has ideas, you have ideas, I have ideas. And like I have said many times, we will be dancing around eachother like this until they find some definite archeological or historical proof of either the OLB being a hoax, or it being a true account of ancient European history. Yeah Abe, nicely put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted October 1, 2012 #1141 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Btw, the list is based on what I have posted in this thread, part -1- and -2- . Don't know if you've seen this page before but I'll link it anyway, maybe there's something in it of interest. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/2*.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted October 1, 2012 #1142 Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) K is for Kappa The Greek letter K is named Kappa. It is thought to have been derived from the Phoenician letter Kaph: The word Kaph "is thought to have been derived from a pictogram of a hand (in both modern Arabic and modern Hebrew, kaph means palm/grip)". In Dutch, the verb "kappen" means to chop (wood). We used to have lots of wood, hence "Hol(t)land" (woodland), and very useful for making ships. Related is the word "inkeping" (notch). Also related the heraldic term "keper" (chevron). K looks more like notch or chevron, than like a hand. Earlier I have argued that the Greek word Delta (used for their letter D) can be explained better through Oldfrisian than by the Greek language. See D is for del-ta (in Westfriesland a "delte" still means a piece of low lying land (laagte). Two Greek letters-names that have a more plausible explanation through the Dutch/ Frisian language, than through Greek. Isn't that interesting? Edited October 1, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 1, 2012 Author #1143 Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) The letter KAPPA did originate from a letter meaning 'hand', as you can see here (development from Proto-Canaanite/Sinaitic to Hebrew of 600 BCE): http://hasoferet.com...g/2012/01/1154/ http://www.omniglot....rotosinaitc.htm And notice how the Phoenician letter ALEPH looks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph It developed from a ox's head..... . Edited October 1, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 1, 2012 Author #1144 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Don't know if you've seen this page before but I'll link it anyway, maybe there's something in it of interest. http://penelope.uchi...olemy/2/2*.html Yes, I know of that page: every time I google "Ptolemy" I end up there, sooner or later. But I haven't found any other real similarities between tribal names on that map and those on mainland Europe, aside of those I mentioned in that post of mine you quoted from. Or maybe there are, but I focussed on names in Ireland and Britain that were similar to names on the south and east coast of the North Sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted October 1, 2012 #1145 Share Posted October 1, 2012 The letter KAPPA did originate from a letter meaning 'hand'... Thanks for that Abe. At first sight it does not look very convincing to me. (Did they manipulate the evidence to fit into a theory?) Proto Can.'s Yad looks more like a K then the Kap. I'd have to properly study it, before I can give a good comment on it. Classes have really started now, too much homework.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 1, 2012 Author #1146 Share Posted October 1, 2012 The Proto Canaanite YAD (or YOD) is an arm: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proto-Canaanite_alphabet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted October 1, 2012 #1147 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I meant the one here: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/protosinaitc.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 1, 2012 Author #1148 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Apparently it depends on the stage of development of the letter. But these three, aleph, kaph, and yad all resemble a K at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted October 1, 2012 #1149 Share Posted October 1, 2012 But these three, aleph, kaph, and yad all resemble a K at some point. ... which does not make that evolution theory very strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted October 1, 2012 Author #1150 Share Posted October 1, 2012 ... which does not make that evolution theory very strong. At some point does not mean at the same point for all three letters. And there are more examples inbetween the stages I showed of a slow development from pictograph to a (modern) letter. Then there is the context that tells translators whether a letter is an aleph or a kaph, plus the fact that although both may look like a K at some point, they are not oriented (or rotated) the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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