Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

I thought there was a chance posting to a Swiss :-)

Anyway, bit frustrated you’re not able to understand? Joking

It was for information, and I wonder sometimes why you have the urge to respond in quite offensive ways.

Maybe drunk again, well better get sober.

Myths are myths.

It can make you post on forums for pages without going anywhere :-)

What do you know about the sanity of that gentleman? Not very respectfull in my opinion.

You think Latin is older than our mothertongue, but you can’t even understand Latin/Greeck?

That most be the reason! Very logical.

About the Pilars and Calk Rock and White Sand

-> a totally ridiculous relation which I’m not gonna mention is Cap Blanc Nez and Wissant

I never suggested Latin is older than my own mother tongue, just that the Romans conquered most of Europe and forced us all to adopt their language and culture.

""About the Pilars and Calk Rock and White Sand

-> a totally ridiculous relation which I’m not gonna mention is Cap Blanc Nez and Wissant"

Maybe it's YOU who is drunk.

I never suggested anything like that.

[Abramelin]

I never suggested Latin is older than my own mother tongue, just that the Romans conquered most of Europe and forced us all to adopt their language and culture.

""About the Pilars and Calk Rock and White Sand

-> a totally ridiculous relation which I’m not gonna mention is Cap Blanc Nez and Wissant"

Maybe it's YOU who is drunk.

I never suggested anything like that.

And this is what I said:

"Although I personally think that the Frisian/North German/Dutch "White Island of the Dead" is what is now the "White Bank" in the North Sea (a submerged chalk cliff, like sandstone Heligoland in the east which is also submerging) - see link former post - I found something interesting concerning such an island in connection with Nerthus:"

[Kantzveldt]

Yeah, we've talked about Nerthus in part -1- of this thread (or was it the Doggerland thread??), but I never thought of it as connected with your quote from the OLB.

So you're suggesting that that ritual was kind of a reenactment of the events as described in the OLB?

Thanks, i've looked over what has been previously considered/posted. I think that the OLB author may have elaborated on the cult of Nerthus for his Irtha, in that arguably there is a cyclic or periodic association of her cult with the claiming of lives into the waters, the bog sacrifices and such perhaps being seen as a means to ward off greater inundations of the land and catastrophe.

Her cult seems to have originated and retained its central area of worship in Denmark, and an interesting consideration for me is to what extent her chariot/wagon was seen as circling the world/axis Northern Pole, to which the great column probably related.

The central pool or lake of her cult would possibly be connected to the central area of the night sky around which Ursa Major revolved, a centre of stillness.

Ursa Major is the probable constellation to be associate with the chariot, in that whilst it daily revolves around the Pole, it also has four seasonal rising points correspondant to the two equinoxes and solstices, Nerthus as an Earth Deity made journeys in her chariot to celebrate these key points of the year/growing seasons, the symbol for these seasonal rotations being the Haken cross, as described by Ursa Major. There is also some suggestion that the night or black sun was conveyed back across the sky by Ursa Major, though that seems problematic.

http://www.draeconin...rune-raidho.htm

http://www.germanicm...wifenerthus.pdf

22 A divinity in a wagon is well-known in Germanic lore, thus there is little need to speculate that Tacitus borrowed the idea from Roman sources. According to the Prose Edda, Thor drives a wagon drawn by goats, Frey arrives at Baldur‟s funeral in a cart led by a boar, and Freyja rides in a car pulled by cats. Njörd too is known as „god of wagons‟ in a skaldic verse cited in the primary manuscript of Snorri‟s Edda; where other manuscripts have Vana guð („god of the Vanir‟), Codex Regius has vagna guð („god of the wagon‟).23 The Big Dipper (Ursa Major) was commonly known as the Wain, or wagon. In skaldic poetry, Odin is known as runni vagna, "mover of wagons"; vinr vagna, "friend of wagons"; vári vagna "protector of wagons"; and valdr vagnbrautar, "ruler of the wagon-road". The sky itself, home of the gods, is known as "the land of wagons (land vagna)," indicating that the constellations were imagined as the gods circling the heavens in their cars

Edited May 26, 2012 by Kantzveldt

[Abramelin]

We have also discussed celestial things in part -1- of this thread. Quite a lot, actually. Search for "Kroder" in part -1- .

But the Nerthus ritual.... it makes me think of something more mundane, like a 'holy island' in the North Sea that submerged.

[Otharus]

Dechristianisation of the Netherlands by province (continued).

I have tried to explain this earlier (in context of cultural difference between North-Holland and rest of NL), but pictures often say more than words.

I think it is significant.

I wish I had statistics for North-Holland WITHOUT Amsterdam and Haarlem.

If Amsterdam and Haarlem (the biggest cities of North-Holland) would be left out, the percentages would have been higher.

These percentages clearly show that in 1920 the province North-Holland was least religious.

Source: http://www.nidi.knaw...6-09-beets2.pdf

If the biggest cities Amsterdam and Haarlem would not have been included, the percentage of unreligious people in NH would probably have been even higher.

This supports my theory that the original 'free-Frisian' (or Fryan) spirit survived more in North-Holland than in the province Friesland. It may also explain why the Over de Linden family moved from Leeuwarden (FRL) to Enkhuizen (NH).

Edited May 28, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

It was for information, and I wonder sometimes why you have the urge to respond in quite offensive ways.

...

What do you know about the sanity of that gentleman? Not very respectfull in my opinion.

I hope you can ignore that, Van Gorp.

I very much appreciate your posts, and I am sure that I am not the only one.

[Otharus]

Dechristianisation of the Netherlands by province (continued).

This does not take Judaism, Buddhism and other small (in NL) religions into account yet, but it gives an impression.

[Abramelin]

I hope you can ignore that, Van Gorp.

I very much appreciate your posts, and I am sure that I am not the only one.

My problem with Van Gorp's posts is that he simply uses (modern) Dutch and/or Flemish to explain old words or words from other languages.

He assumes Dutch/Flemish is the ancestor of most other European languages. But what is that based on?

There are people from Hungary doing even better: they claim Magyar is the oldest and original language in Europe, that the Celts are their direct descendents, that many if not most European toponyms are of Magyar origin.

And then we have ... fill in almost any European country (remember Rudbeck, the Swedish guy?).

Oh, and I forgot about the Albanians who consider themselves the direct (and only true) descendents of the Illyrians, and yes, they can also explain every European word using their language.

Did I mention the Turks? They are on top of this pyramid.

Wait a sec, and I hope that Albanian site is still online, a site that explained words from the OLB using Albanian/Illyrian.

Let's invite all these nationalities in this thread, heh.

They can't all be right. Right?

[Abramelin]

OK, I am 200% sure I posted the link to that Albanian site (using the 'Wayback Machine' = Internet Archives) in the first part of this thread, but searching that archived thread has become a major pain, so all I can post now is this:

Andi Zeneli, the Albanian researcher, has used the text of the Oera Linda Book in an attempt to support his claim for an Albanian connection with Atlantis.

http://atlantipedia....era-linda-book/

http://www.oocities.org/zenel1/

http://www.geocities.ws/protoillyrian/

++++++

EDIT:

Bingo, I found it in Google cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tABQcMRB_cYJ:albanianhistory.1accesshost.com/atlantis2.html+&cd=6&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl

.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

My problem with Van Gorp's posts is that he simply uses (modern) Dutch and/or Flemish to explain old words or words from other languages.

It is perfectly OK to argue why you think he is wrong, but if you would control yourself better and leave out the offences, this thread would become more attractive and other serious participants might join.

I know I overreacted sometimes in the past myself.

I have apologized for that and try to not do it again.

Some day this thread may be a source for OLB researchers.

Keep that in mind.

[Otharus]

Example of spelling variety and inconsequent translation by Ottema/ Sandbach (1876).

[008/26]

SACH HJU EN NYNDASK EN SPINNE VRSLYNNA

[O+S p.15]

Zag zij een hagedis eene spin verslinden

If she saw a lizard swallow a spider

[166/30]

FORTH SIND THÉR ÔLLERLÉJA SLACHT FON HÁCH-DISKA. NYN-DISKA ÀND Á-DISKA

[O+S p.225]

Voorts zijn daar allerlei soort van hagedissen, schildpadden en krokodillen

There are, besides, all sorts of lizards, tortoises, and crocodiles

~~

Assuming that NYNDASK and NYN-DISK are varieties of the same word, it can be concluded that the translation was not consequent.

The words HÁCH-DISK, NYN-DISK and Á-DISK are not known from Oldfrisian texts and dictionaries (as far as I know).

The term "nijdas" is known from oldschool Dutch in use for someone with a nasty character, and the word was associated with "hagedis" (lizard).

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M041223&lemmodern=nijdas

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/nijdas

"Hagedis" (the modern Dutch spelling) is known in a variety of spellings: eghedisse, egedisse, haghetisse, hagetisse, aketisse, hertisse, etcetera.

http://gtb.inl.nl

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/hagedis

[Otharus]

Dechristianisation of the Netherlands by province (continued).

According to another source the % of people without religion in NL was in 2005: 48.4 %

nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religie_in_Nederland

From orthodox Protestant (Reformed) newspaper (31-08-2010):

Ontkerkelijking in Nederland sterkst

DEN HAAG – De ontkerkelijking in Nederland is al een eeuw gaande, maar gaat nergens ter wereld zo snel als hier. Dat blijkt uit nieuwe cijfers van het Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek (CBS).

www.refdag.nl/kerkplein/kerknieuws/ontkerkelijking

Translated:

Deconversion (people losing their religion) strongest in the Netherlands

Deconversion in the Netherlands has been going on for a century, but nowhere in the world it is going as fast as here. New figures of the Central Bureau for Statistics prove that.

Conclusion:

The Netherlands are ahead of the rest of the (western?) world with deconversion, and as I have shown, within the Netherlands this is the province North-Holland (Westfriesland), the area where 'Fryan' culture would logically have remained most original (more than in the province Friesland/ Fryslân), as it was more difficult to conquer by the Gola/ Kelta/ Romans/ Franks (from the south) and Magí/ Danes/ Germans (from the east).

It will not be a coincidence that the utter north-west part of NL, Texel/ Texland (?), was the cultural/ administrative centre of 'Fryasland'.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

One more on deconversion.

In this thread we have sometimes ran into fascinating coïncidences.

Here is another one (and it explains my little obsession with deconversion):

I have always heard (but it needs to be confirmed), that the village where I was born - Wijdenes - was the first in Westfriesland that closed its church because of deconversion. (They sold it to an sculptor, who made it his workshop.)

This happened in the night that I was born (christmas 1968).

In fact, the church bells were ringing for the last time at the very same moment I was born (1:00 a.m.), and it had just started snowing.

Conspirity?

(BTW. There is also an old legend that lightning stroke the church-tower several times, until the minister of Wijdenes made a deal with the devil. Something related to the relatively high suicide rate.)

[Otharus]

Spelling varieties BÀRN & BERN (born or child/ children) throughout the OLB

1. Roughly

A} Until page 65 (line 14), where the history of JON starts, BÀRN is more common than BERN:

31x BÀRN vs. 5x BERN

B} From the history of JON (page 65, line 15) onwards, it is the other way around:

74x BERN vs. 1x BÀRN

2. More specifically

Part A}

1x BERN is used in the introduction [001/01]-[005/08], which has 2x BÀRN

2x BERN is used in Minno's writings [029/21]-[040/10], which have 1x BÀRN

2x BERN is used in the text from the Waraburch (about Wodin) [050/19]-[061/27], which has 1x BÀRN

=> in these 3 texts the spelling is inconsequent

In all other texts of part A} the spelling is consequently BÀRN (27x)

Part B}

1x BÀRN is used in the text from Fryasburch (about Ulysus) [075/08]-[079/10], which has 1x BERN

=> in this single text the spelling is inconsequent

In all other texts of part B} the spelling is consequently BERN (73x)

~ ~ ~

I leave conclusions to the reader.

~ ~ ~

A similar exercise can be done with (for example):

SEND vs. SIND

WÉSA vs. WESEN

NW/ NVV vs. NV

KÁNING/ KÀNING vs. KENING/ KÉNING

WI vs. WY

(For this analysis I used www.online-utility.org/text/analyzer.jsp and my transcription, which is a corrected version of Ottema's.)

Edited May 28, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

One more on deconversion.

In this thread we have sometimes ran into fascinating coïncidences.

Here is another one (and it explains my little obsession with deconversion):

I have always heard (but it needs to be confirmed), that the village where I was born - Wijdenes - was the first in Westfriesland that closed its church because of deconversion. (They sold it to an sculptor, who made it his workshop.)

This happened in the night that I was born (christmas 1968).

In fact, the church bells were ringing for the last time at the very same moment I was born (1:00 a.m.), and it had just started snowing.

Conspirity?

(BTW. There is also an old legend that lightning stroke the church-tower several times, until the minister of Wijdenes made a deal with the devil. Something related to the relatively high suicide rate.)

LOL, I was born during a thunderstorm, and lightning had hit a large "linden" (lime) tree very nearby, which helped my mother 'somewhat' during labour.

And.. my father was a devout Catholic, while my mother couldn't stand the sight of the Pope, or any priest or any nun, lol.

[Abramelin]

Example of spelling variety and inconsequent translation by Ottema/ Sandbach (1876).

[008/26]

SACH HJU EN NYNDASK EN SPINNE VRSLYNNA

[O+S p.15]

Zag zij een hagedis eene spin verslinden

If she saw a lizard swallow a spider

[166/30]

FORTH SIND THÉR ÔLLERLÉJA SLACHT FON HÁCH-DISKA. NYN-DISKA ÀND Á-DISKA

[O+S p.225]

Voorts zijn daar allerlei soort van hagedissen, schildpadden en krokodillen

There are, besides, all sorts of lizards, tortoises, and crocodiles

~~

Assuming that NYNDASK and NYN-DISK are varieties of the same word, it can be concluded that the translation was not consequent.

The words HÁCH-DISK, NYN-DISK and Á-DISK are not known from Oldfrisian texts and dictionaries (as far as I know).

The term "nijdas" is known from oldschool Dutch in use for someone with a nasty character, and the word was associated with "hagedis" (lizard).

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...emmodern=nijdas

http://www.etymologi...refwoord/nijdas

"Hagedis" (the modern Dutch spelling) is known in a variety of spellings: eghedisse, egedisse, haghetisse, hagetisse, aketisse, hertisse, etcetera.

http://gtb.inl.nl

http://www.etymologi...efwoord/hagedis

Yeah, we've been there before.

And according to the OLB there were "alligators" in the Punjab too, lol.

Or what was the word again? "Al-geatar"?

.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Yeah, we've been there before.

And according to the OLB there were "alligators" in the Punjab too, lol.

Or what was the word again? "Al-geatar"?

No, we have not been here yet. We discussed the word AL-GÀTTAR, but not Á-DISK.

The following two fragments show that (like NYN-DISK) the word was not translated consequently by Ottema and Sandbach.

[166/30]

FORTH SIND THÉR ÔLLERLÉJA SLACHT FON HÁCH.DISKA. NYN.DISKA ÀND Á.DISKA

[O+S p.225]

Voorts zijn daar allerlei soort van hagedissen, schildpadden en krokodillen

There are, besides, all sorts of lizards, tortoises, and crocodiles

[167/04]

THA ALDERGRÁTESTE Á.DISKA SIND AL.GÀTTAR HÉTEN

[O+S p.225]

de allergrootste adisken heeten alligators

the largest ['adiska' = water-reptiles?] are called alligators

~

The Nethersaxon dialects still have versions of this word (with the -SK sound).

Lizard (Dutch: hagedis) in Nethersaxon dialects (source http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evertaske )

eveltask, eveltasse, eveltas(t), evertaast, evertas(se) - Drèents (Drenthe)

eweldasse - Graafschopper Platt

evertaske, heveltaske - Grunnegs (Groningen)

èverdasse - Zwolle

eveltaske, evertaske - Stellingwarfs (Stellingwerf)

eveltasse, eawerdasse - Tweants (Twente)

eve[r]desse - Veluws (Veluwe; Nunspeet)

It is important to note that "DASK" and "DISK" are not listed in Halbertsma's Lexicon Frisicum (A-F), which is strange if he would have written the OLB.

In fact, I have not found these words in any regular dictionary, Dutch or Frisian.

Still, the dialects speak bookparts.

It looks like the Dutch 'hage-dis' may originally have been 'hage-disk' or 'haag-disk' as OLB suggests.

~

We keep discovering puzzle pieces of our language with help of the OLB.

The more things like this we find, the more unlikely it becomes that OLB is a 19th century fabrication.

It is much too complex, too good to be fake.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

I was born during a thunderstorm, and lightning had hit a large "linden" (lime) tree very nearby, which helped my mother 'somewhat' during labour.

LOL! that explains everything

And.. my father was a devout Catholic, while my mother couldn't stand the sight of the Pope, or any priest or any nun, lol.

How was that proverb again?

"two (different) beliefs on one pillow, the devil sleeps in between"

(twee geloven op één kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen)

My parents are very different too (although they agreed about not baptising their children).

The recipe for a split spirit.

[Abramelin]

LOL! that explains everything

How was that proverb again?

"two (different) beliefs on one pillow, the devil sleeps in between"

(twee geloven op één kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen)

My parents are very different too (although they agreed about not baptising their children).

The recipe for a split spirit.

I knew you'd going to say that, lol! Yeah, I have a somewhat 'charged' character...

About beliefs: both my parents were - officially - Roman Catholic. But my father was born and raised in a little village in the province of Brabant where they were very Catholic, while my mother was born and raised in The Hague/Scheveningen, and they were not that strict Catholic.

[Abramelin]

No, we have not been here yet. We discussed the word AL-GÀTTAR, but not Á-DISK.

The following two fragments show that (like NYN-DISK) the word was not translated consequently by Ottema and Sandbach.

[166/30]

FORTH SIND THÉR ÔLLERLÉJA SLACHT FON HÁCH.DISKA. NYN.DISKA ÀND Á.DISKA

[O+S p.225]

Voorts zijn daar allerlei soort van hagedissen, schildpadden en krokodillen

There are, besides, all sorts of lizards, tortoises, and crocodiles

[167/04]

THA ALDERGRÁTESTE Á.DISKA SIND AL.GÀTTAR HÉTEN

[O+S p.225]

de allergrootste adisken heeten alligators

the largest ['adiska' = water-reptiles?] are called alligators

~

The Nethersaxon dialects still have versions of this word (with the -SK sound).

Lizard (Dutch: hagedis) in Nethersaxon dialects (source http://nds-nl.wikipe.../wiki/Evertaske )

eveltask, eveltasse, eveltas(t), evertaast, evertas(se) - Drèents (Drenthe)

eweldasse - Graafschopper Platt

evertaske, heveltaske - Grunnegs (Groningen)

èverdasse - Zwolle

eveltaske, evertaske - Stellingwarfs (Stellingwerf)

eveltasse, eawerdasse - Tweants (Twente)

eve[r]desse - Veluws (Veluwe; Nunspeet)

It is important to note that "DASK" and "DISK" are not listed in Halbertsma's Lexicon Frisicum (A-F), which is strange if he would have written the OLB.

In fact, I have not found these words in any regular dictionary, Dutch or Frisian.

Still, the dialects speak bookparts.

It looks like the Dutch 'hage-dis' may originally have been 'hage-disk' or 'haag-disk' as OLB suggests.

~

We keep discovering puzzle pieces of our language with help of the OLB.

The more things like this we find, the more unlikely it becomes that OLB is a 19th century fabrication.

It is much too complex, too good to be fake.

Funny you couldn't find it. I even remember my father, who came from the south of the Netherlands, used a similar word: edechs or even eidechs. And he used it for 'lizard', or 'hagedis' in modern standard Dutch.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/hagedis

Haven't checked the Lexicon Frisicum yet.

[Otharus]

Funny you couldn't find it.

Did you find it (DASK or DISK)?

[Abramelin]

Did you find it (DASK or DISK)?

In the Lexicon Frisicum you mean? No, but then I will have to combine my almost non-existant knowledge of Latin with like 20 possible ways of spelling "a-diska". I did try, though.

http://www.etymologi...efwoord/hagedis

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...=WNT&id=M023077

And "eidechse", ohd (old High German). "egi-dëhsa" is close enough. It looks even older than the OLB "a_diska".

.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

And "eidechse", ohd (old High German). "egi-dëhsa" is close enough. It looks even older than the OLB "a_diska".

That does not look older to me.

The most original version would logically be the most simple one.

(Just like GARD would be older than hortus, jardin, giardino etc.)

[Abramelin]

That does not look older to me.

The most original version would logically be the most simple one.

(Just like GARD would be older than hortus, jardin, giardino etc.)

Well, people do not like 'long' words, and most often words get shortened through time.

What you see in etymological dictionaries (the short words from PIE or Pre- and Proto whatever, you know what I mean) are 'stems' of words, not necessarily words that were actually used.

[Otharus]

Well, people do not like 'long' words, and most often words get shortened through time.

Then why would they invent long words in the first place?