Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

Then why would they invent long words in the first place?

To name something you use a couple of descriptive words. This description then becomes a name, and names (and words) tend to shorten in the course of time.

[Otharus]

To name something you use a couple of descriptive words. This description then becomes a name, and names (and words) tend to shorten in the course of time.

Yes in those cases that is true, but if GARD is from the verb GARA (which I think is likely), than that is the most simple, the most pure form.

I will think of more examples.

The Newfrisian 'wyn' and 'lân' for 'wind' and 'land' are shorter, but newer spelling varieties.

MANNISK => mensk/ minsk => mensch => mens

SKOLA => scholen/ schools/ schüle

SVN => son/ zoon/ sohn

BOK => book/ boek/ büch

LIF => life/ lijf/ leven

FLOD => flood/ vloed

(just a few exercises)

Surprise!

I will translate a wonderful article from todays newspaper...

Edited May 31, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Yes in those cases that is true, but if GARD is from the verb GARA (which I think is likely), than that is the most simple, the most pure form.

I will think of more examples.

The Newfrisian 'wyn' and 'lân' for 'wind' and 'land' are shorter, but newer spelling varieties.

MANNISK => mensk/ minsk => mensch => mens

SKOLA => scholen/ schools/ schüle

SVN => son/ zoon/ sohn

BOK => book/ boek/ büch

LIF => life/ lijf/ leven

FLOD => flood/ vloed

(just a few exercises)

Surprise!

I will translate a wonderful article from todays newspaper...

Your first example, MANNISK, is the only one word that is actually a bit longer than what evolved out of it later on.

The rest are examples of using a different letter (vowel or consonant) according to a particular dialect or language.

[Abramelin]

Your first example, MANNISK, is the only one word that is actually a bit longer than what evolved out of it later on.

The rest are examples of using a different letter (vowel or consonant) according to a particular dialect or language.

And oh... that Frisians leave out certain letters is particular to their dialect. They still do it when pronouncing modern words.

--

Damn, that should have been an edit of my former post.

.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

From front page and page 18 of todays Dutch daily (high quality) newspaper NRC Handelsblad:

Translation of the headlines:

"Dutch language is much older than ´olla vogala´ (all birds)"

"First Dutch is 1500 years old ~ The 350 oldest 'Dutch' words are 500 years older than the well known 'Hebban olla vogala...' They are mostly juridical terms, from a sixth-century lawtext."

Translation of the whole article will follow later.

[Abramelin]

From front page and page 18 of todays Dutch daily (high quality) newspaper NRC Handelsblad:

Translation of the headlines:

"Dutch language is much older than ´olla vogala´ (all birds)"

"First Dutch is 1500 years old ~ The 350 oldest 'Dutch' words are 500 years older than the well known 'Hebban olla vogala...' They are mostly juridical terms, from a sixth-century lawtext."

Translation of the whole article will follow later.

Heh, read that again... DUTCH.

Not Frisian.

Just kidding, but hey, you 'asked' for it, lol.

[Otharus]

Heh, read that again... DUTCH.

Not Frisian.

You still think they were different languages?!

There must have been dozens of dialects of the same language (whatever you want to call that language) all over NW-Europe.

"De verschillen tussen de Germaanse talen waren indertijd minder groot dan nu."

"In the past, the differences between the Germanic languages were less significant."

What is important, is that after a few hundred years of 'Dutch' linguistics, they finally accept that "Hebban olla vogala..." is not the oldest known source of our language.

Something many generations (including both of us) learned at school.

This was one step.

The step towards accepting the OLB as a serious source is made slightly easier now.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

So the Fryans spoke "Dutch". or some Germanic language.

Why doesn't that suprise me?

Maybe because a Halbertsma tried to fool us all (and himself) by fabricating an "Old Frisian" language based on modern Dutch grammar?

If it wasn't Halbertsma, it was some other guy.

And I posted a text (from the 6th or 7th century AD, found in the province of Friesland) written in runes that didn't resemble anything in the OLB, but it sure as hell was old Germanic, a language that should have been very close to Fryan.

[Otharus]

And I posted a text (from the 6th or 7th century AD, found in the province of Friesland) written in runes that didn't resemble anything in the OLB, but it sure as hell was old Germanic, a language that should have been very close to Fryan.

For a someone who calls himself a skeptic, you are too sure of things.

What are you talking about anyway?

'Old Germanic' IS very close to 'Fryan'!

Edited June 1, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

For a someone who calls himself a skeptic, you are too sure of things.

What are you talking about anyway?

'Old Germanic' IS very close to 'Fryan'!

But not the language they found used on that wooden tablet. It was written in runes, and the language did not resemble the Old Germanic or Old Frisian we know of, or the language used in the OLB.

[Otharus]

Translation of frontpage article (underlinings added by me):

Dutch language is much older than ´olla vogala´

['all birds'; a famous love poem, supposedly written by a Westflemmish monk in the late 11th century]

By the editorial office 'Science' (Rotterdam)

The Old-Dutch language is much older than the words in the well-known sentence 'Hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase...'. 350 words of 500 years older can be labelled as old-Dutch. They are reconstructed from copies of a sixth-century lawtext, the Lex Salica.

In the course of centuries many copies of that text were made and the copyists did no longer know how to deal with the Netherfrankish words. Those words were changed, made into Latin-ish or Greek-ish words, or simply left out.

Now they have been reconstructed and included in a new edition of the Old-Dutch Dictionary of the Institute for Dutch Lexicology. It is online on www.inl.nl.

They are not only strange words, like 'andarstrippi' and 'heemheto' (see examples). Words like 'morther' (murder), 'fither' (four ~ Dutch & German: vier) and 'focla' (bird ~ Dutch & German: vogel) sound more familiar.

The original Lex Salica was written in North-France, where Netherfrankish was spoken. "That language", editor of the dictionary Arend Quack explains, "was definitively superseded by the Roman language in the seventh century". The Lex Salica was written in Latin, but to clarify the juridical text, many words were added from the spoken language of that time.

[examples (seperating dots added by me):]

andar.strippi someone else his land

brio.ruoro index finger (literal: to stir porridge/ mush)

ferth.bero a bringer/ barer of severe danger

fri.fra.sagin to end an engagement with a woman

heem.heto the main (breeding) bull/ steer

[continued in article from page 18]

Edited June 1, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

But not the language they found used on that wooden tablet. It was written in runes, and the language did not resemble the Old Germanic or Old Frisian we know of, or the language used in the OLB.

Conclusion: the language of that wooden tablet was not Old-Germanic or Old-Frisian.

[Abramelin]

Conclusion: the language of that wooden tablet was not Old-Germanic or Old-Frisian.

Indeed, it was older than Old Germanic and Old Frisian; let's say Oldest Known Germanic/Frisian.

[Abramelin]

Again... the OLB "Lumka-makia" :

Lumka-mâkja bi thêre Ê-mude to Ast-flyland

Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland

I think we have located this "Lumkamakia near the Eemude" in many places already (Heligoland, Lemster - Friesland, Emden - Germany), but I think I found yet another possible location:

Westeremden (Groningen)

De plaats komt in de middeleeuwen eerst voor onder de namen Emedun (944), Amuthon (10e-12e eeuw), en Emetha (of Emethe of Emutha; 13e eeuw).Mutha betekent: monding van de rivier. Later is het voorvoegsel 'wester' toegevoegd om de plaats te onderscheiden van het Oost-Friese Emden. Als zodanig komt de plaats voor het eerst voor in 1379.

English:

The place is first mentioned in the Middle Ages with the names Emedun (944), Amuthon (10th-12th century), and Emetha (or Emethe or Emutha; 13th century). [2] Mutha means mouth of the river. Later the prefix 'Wester' was added to distinguish it from the East Frisian Emden. As such, the place is mentioned for the first time in 1379.

http://nl.wikipedia....iki/Westeremden

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fivel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fivel

In Frisian:

Dat is yn de namme fan it doarp werom te finen: e-muda betsjut "mûning fan de rivier"

http://fy.wikipedia....iki/Westeremden

Interesting to notice is that the oldest known forms of this name always have an -n- at the end.

.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Translation of main article (underlinings by me):

First Dutch is 1500 years old

'Heemheto' is the bull that leads the hurd: 'heto' is leader, 'heem' is home

The 350 oldest 'Dutch' words are 500 years older than the well known 'Hebban olla vogala...' They are mostly juridical terms, from a sixth-century lawtext.

By Berthold van Maris (Rotterdam)

The oldest 'Olddutch' words that are still used, were written in the sixth century. This month they were added to the new edition of the online Olddutch Dictionary from the Institute for Dutch Lexicology. They are 350 words that are five centuries older than the well-known fragment 'Hebban olla vogala...'. Odd words, like 'frifrasagin': to break ('forsay' ~ Dutch: 'verzeggen') the engagement with a woman ('fri' ~ Dutch: vrouw). 'Andarstrippi': otherman's land (literally: strip). And 'ferthbero': a bringer/ carrier of severe danger.

The collection also contains words that still live forth in the Dutch language: moord (morther = murder), vier (fither = four), vogel (focla = bird), haan (hano = rooster), horige (horigo = slave), vee (fe = cattle) and dorpel (durpelo = doorsill).

All these words were used in a Frankish lawtext from the sixth century, the Lex Salica. They are Oldgermanic descriptions of crimes and misdemeanors, but also other words that were added to clarify the Latin text.

The lawtext was composed in North-France, Arend Quak -main editor of the dictionary - explains. A kind of Netherfrankish (a Germanic language) was spoken there in the sixth century. This language was probably related to the Germanic that was spoken more northly, in the Low Lands (Netherlands).

Quak: "This Netherfrankish is one of the languages that are the foundation of the Dutch language. Besides Saxon, that was spoken in the East-Netherlands and Germany, and Frisian, which was the language of the Northsea coast. The main part of what we know as Dutch nowadays, is Netherfrankish."

Thus, Netherfrankish is sort of Old-Dutch. "In North-France the Netherfrankish language was definitively superseded by the Roman language in the seventh century. The many handwritten copies of the Lex Salica that we have are of later date: from after that change of language. As a result, the copyists read and copied those Germanic words, but they no longer understood them. Furthermore, in that time they already used a different spelling. 'Ch' became 'H', for example. Also, letters were sometimes mis-read. A 'u' could easily be read as an 'a', a 'uu' as an 'm', a 'c' as a 't'. And sometimes these words were associated with other words, like with Latin words, and changed accordingly. In one manuscript, the copyist even writes that he simply left out 'those Greek words'.

As a result, the words were quite mishmashed. 'Ferthbero' (carrier of severe danger) was found in many varieties: ferimbera, ferthebero, fertibero, fistirbiero and frictebero.

By comparing all copies, after much puzzling, many of the original versions could be reconstructed. Quak also compared the material with sources of other Oldgermanic languages, of which much more survived, like Oldhighgerman and Oldenglish. In the past, the differences between the Germanic languages were less significant.

Quak says that about circa 75 percent of his reconstructions, he is 'quite certain'. To the other part he added a questionmark.

His favorite word is 'heemheto'. In the Latin text this is explained as the bull that leads the hurd. "Heto is something like commander and is common in Oldgermanic. Heem is common too, in the meaning of home, farm or village. The combination of those two was a big surprise to me."

One of the reconstructions that he is less certain of, is the old word for indexfinger. The manuscripts have many varieties: biorotro, brioro and briorodero. "One might reconstruct that into 'brioruoro': 'brijroerder' ('brew-churner'); the finger that is used to churn or stir the porridge or mush." The word is used in a paragraph about the mutilation of fingers: "When the indexfinger, used to shoot with bow and arrow, is chopped off - in the folktongue 'brioruoro'- the fine is 35 shillings."

The Olddutch Dictionary exists online only, on www.inl.nl.

[Otharus]

Indeed, it was older than Old Germanic and Old Frisian; let's say Oldest Known Germanic/Frisian.

I do not agree.

Langages can not change that dramatically in only a few centuries.

[Abramelin]

I do not agree.

Langages can not change that dramatically in only a few centuries.

Those Frisian Law Texts are from the 13th and 12th centuries; the runic inscriptions from Westeremden are from the 8th century.

That's at least 4 centuries.

Anyway, check it out for yourself:

Runes around the North Sea and on the Continent AD 150-700; texts & contexts

(1997) Looijenga, Jantina Helena

http://dissertations.../j.h.looijenga/

Scroll down to the bottom for the pdfs, each with part of her thesis. Or use the link that says "thesis" to get the pdf with the complete thesis.

She has quite a lot to say about Frisian runes (search for "Westeremden" in the pdf), but this is from another site:

Looijenga (1997) reads:

op hæmu jibada æmluþ : iwi ok up duna (a)le wimœd æh þusa

Interpreted as something like "luck (amluþ) stays (gibada) at home (op hæmu); and (ok) at the yew (iwi) may it grow (ale) on the hill (up duna); Wimœd has (æh) this (þusa)." or "at the homestead stays good fortune, may it also grow near the yew on the terp; Wimœd owns this."

For paleographical reasons (the bookhand-s and Younger Futhark influence), Looijenga dates the stick to after AD 750.

http://en.wikipedia....emden_yew-stick

And she even thinks (see pdf) that this Westeremden line is one of the few texts in ancient Frisian.

.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Those Frisian Law Texts are from the 13th and 12th centuries; the runic inscriptions from Westeremden are from the 8th century.

If you consider those runic inscriptions as Oldfrisian, you might as well consider the Latin inscriptions on the Nehallennia votive stones as Olddutch.

[Abramelin]

If you consider those runic inscriptions as Oldfrisian, you might as well consider the Latin inscriptions on the Nehallennia votive stones as Olddutch.

I don't 'consider', it was someone who studied these runes for years (see thesis) who did consider that runic text as ancient Frisian.

[Abramelin]

Otharus,

In your post about the Dutch language being 1500 years old, you posted a link at the end.... and I have been using that site for almost 2 years, lol.

http://www.inl.nl/onderzoek-a-onderwijs/lexicologie-a-lexicografie/etymologie

You underlined this sentence:

"In the past, the differences between the Germanic languages were less significant."

I agree with that, and for a long time.

But now, instead of mere words, find me a(nother) 1500 years old Dutch/Frisian sentence so we can see how word order changed.

Because it did.

This is not only about etymology, but also about syntax.

That is the main reason people have said that the OLB is too modern to be (at least) 2600 years old.

[Abramelin]

Otharus,

In your post about the Dutch language being 1500 years old, you posted a link at the end.... and I have been using that site for almost 2 years, lol.

http://www.inl.nl/on...afie/etymologie

You underlined this sentence:

"In the past, the differences between the Germanic languages were less significant."

I agree with that, and for a long time.

But now, instead of mere words, find me a(nother) 1500 years old Dutch/Frisian sentence so we can see how word order changed.

Because it did.

This is not only about etymology, but also about syntax.

That is the main reason people have said that the OLB is too modern to be (at least) 2600 years old.

(...) the unemphatic word order of the earliest Germanic documents was predominantly

(Subject) + Object + Verb.

(...) This word order apparently lasted well into the time period of the Gothic documents. The same word order is frequently found in the Old English poem Beowulf.

(...) The general conservatism displayed by Gothic in terms of morphology leads scholars to expect the unemphatic word order was typically SOV in accordance with the earliest Germanic inscriptions.

http://www.utexas.ed.../gotol-1-X.html

The OLB manuscript was originally thought to have been written in Old Frisian but according to Jensma "the syntax of this artificial language proves to be completely in line with modern, read: nineteenth-century Dutch/Frisian"

.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

The OLB manuscript was originally thought to have been written in Old Frisian but according to Jensma "the syntax of this artificial language proves to be completely in line with modern, read: nineteenth-century Dutch/Frisian"

Jensma is not completely sure that OLB is a hoax.

He addmitted so himself, I have quoted him on that earlier.

Therefore, it is not sure that the language is artificial.

Thus, the obove quote is wrong.

It should be:

"The syntax of modern Dutch/ Frisian is in line with the language of the OLB."

Since syntax didn't really change over the last few hundred years, why should it have changed over the last 1000 or 2000 years?

We only have a few written records from late-medieval monks, who were Latin schooled. They will not have been Westfrisians, as the Westfrisians hated the church and everything having to do with it.

In North-Holland/ Westfriesland/ Texland (Texel) the original Fryan culture and language may have been well preserved, transmitted from mother to child (hence mothertongue; moedertaal; memmetaal). The people from this area will have had much influence on Dutch culture, otherwise we would by now be speaking French, German, Danish or English. Our language, syntax and vocabulary must be deeply rooted in our culture. While men usually travel around, going to wars, exploring, trading etc., women usually stay home (unless they are kidnapped, sold, traded or if they really have to escape when driven out of their land.) In peace-minded cultures, children are raised mainly by their mothers. In war-minded cultures, the sons get military schooling (by men who will often be from different areas) from young age. So language stays most pure in areas where mothers raise and educate their children.

Think about that one for a while.

Westfriesland (and Texel?) were subdued for the first time (as far as I know) by the counts of 'Holland' (a term introduced in 1100 to replace 'Frisia') in the late 13th century.

We have to ask this question:

Is it possible that OLB and its language are authentic?

The answer is:

YES, that IS possible.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

The OLB manuscript was originally thought to have been written in Old Frisian but according to Jensma "the syntax of this artificial language proves to be completely in line with modern, read: nineteenth-century Dutch/Frisian"

Besides that it is not sure that the language is 'artificial', there is more wrong with this quote.

The syntax of the OLB-language is as much in line with the syntax of late medieval Oldfrisian (from the well-known laws) as it is with that of 19th century Dutch/Frisian.

Jensma's "read: nineteenth-century" is suggestive, one might even say demagogic.

He wants the reader to believe something that he could not prove.

[Otharus]

In North-Holland/ Westfriesland/ Texland (Texel) the original Fryan culture and language may have been well preserved, transmitted from mother to child (hence mothertongue; moedertaal; memmetaal).

...

So language stays most pure in areas where mothers raise and educate their children.

Mother tongue - English

Langue maternelle - French

Lengua materna - Spanish

Madrelingua - Italian

Muttersprache - German

Moedertaal - Dutch

Memmetaal - Frisian

Modersmål - Danish, Swedish

Morsmål - Norwegian

We usually learn the basics of our language (and ethics) from our mother.

Before there was television and radio, and when people usually did not go very far from home, children will only have heard the language of their familiy and village members. (In cities even neighbourhoods would have their own particular accent.) Education by the parents and family was more important than in the last few generations.

Since I collected data of my ancestors a long time ago, I could easily do a case-study, making visible the spread of six generations of mothers. As you can see almost all of them were born in Westfriesland. Only four were born a bit more south, but still in the province North-Holland (between Amsterdam and Westfriesland).

I have read witness reports from the early18th century, they give a good impression of spoken language as the notary would literally quote the witnesses. Apart from a few words that are no longer used, language (syntax) has not changed a bit.

Between 1700 and now the language of my ancestors has hardly changed, and they did not migrate much.

I can imagine that in the preceding centuries changes happened even slower.

Communication was much more oral than now.

Because common people were hardly reading, the brain had much more space left for speaking and listening (and singing ).

I also think their vocabulary was much better than ours.

[Van Gorp]

Just for interest: The Hellespont mentioned below is the same one I think is the true one, situated East Baltic, right at the mouth of the Vistula, it has Helle. sometimes on old maps.

Plutarch's indications allow us to identify Ogygia with one of the Faroe Islands (where we also come across an island with a curiously Greek-sounding name: Mykines) and, starting from here, the route eastwards, which Ulysses follows (Book V of the Odyssey) in his voyage from Ogygia to Scheria allows us to locate the latter, i.e. the land of the Phaeacians, on the southern coast of Norway, in an area perfectly fitting the account of his arrival, where archaeological traces of the Bronze Age are plentiful. In addition, on the one hand in Old Norse "sker" means a "sea rock", on the other in the narrative of Ulysses's landing Homer introduces the reversal of the river current, which is unknown in the Mediterranean world but is typical of the Atlantic estuaries during flood tide.

From here the Phaeacians took Ulysses to Ithaca, located on the far side of an archipelago, which Homer talks about in great detail. At this point, a series of precise parallels makes it possible to identify a group of Danish islands, in the south of the Baltic Sea, which correspond exactly to all Homer's indications. Actually, the South-Fyn Archipelago includes three main islands: Langeland (the "Long Island"; which finally unveils the puzzle of the mysterious island of Dulichium), Aerø (which corresponds perfectly to Homeric Same) and Tåsinge (ancient Zacynthus). The last island in the archipelago, located westwards, "facing the night", is Ulysses's Ithaca, now known as Lyø. It is astonishing how greatly it coincides with the indications of the poet, not only as far as its position is concerned, but also its topographical and morphological characteristics: for example, one can identify the ancient "Phorcys's Harbour" and the "Crow's Rock" (which corresponds to a Neolithic dolmen standing in the west of the island). And here, amongst this group of islands, we can even identify the little island "in the strait between Ithaca and Same", where the Penelope's suitors tried to waylay Telemachus.

Moreover, the Elis, i.e. one of the regions of Peloponnese, is described as lying to the east of Ithaca and in front of Dulichium. It is easily identifiable with a part of the large Danish island of Zealand. Therefore, the latter is the original "Peloponnese", i.e. "Pelops's Island", in the real meaning of the word "island" ("nêsos" in Greek)! On the other hand, the Greek Peloponnese (which is located in a similar position in the Aegean Sea, i.e. in its southwestern side) is not an island despite its denomination. This contradiction, which is inexplicable unless we suppose a transposition of the name, is very significant. Furthermore, the details reported in the Odyssey regarding both Telemachus's quick journey by chariot from Pylos to Lacedaemon, along "a wheat-producing plain", and the development of the war between Pylians and Epeans, as narrated by Nestor in Book XI of the Iliad, have always been considered inconsistent with Greece's uneven orography. They fit in perfectly, however, with the reality of the flat Danish island.

Now let us turn to the region of Troy. In the Iliad it is located along Hellespont which is systematically described as being a "wide" or even "boundless" sea. We can, therefore, exclude the fact that it refers to the Dardanelles, where the city found by Schliemann lies. The identification of this city with Homer's Troy continues to raise strong doubts: we only have to think of Finley's criticism in the World of Odysseus. On the other hand, the Danish Medieval historian Saxo Grammaticus in his Gesta Danorum often mentions a population known as "Hellespontians" and a region called Hellespont, which, strangely enough, seems to be located in the east of the Baltic Sea. Could it be Homer's Hellespont? We can identify it with the Gulf of Finland, which is the "geographic counterpart" of the Dardanelles (as a matter of fact, both of them lie to the Northeast in their respective seas). Since Troy, according to the Iliad, was situated Northeast of the sea (here is another reason to dispute Schliemann's location), then it seems reasonable, for the purpose of this research, to go over a region of southern Finland, where the Gulf of Finland joins the Baltic Sea. In this area, west of Helsinki, we find lots of name-places which astonishingly resemble those mentioned in the Iliad and, in particular, those given to the allies of the Trojans: Askainen (Ascanius), Reso (Rhesus), Karjaa (Caria), Nästi (Nastes, the chief of the Carians), Lyökki (Lycia), Tenala (Tenedos), Kiila (Cilla), Kiikoinen (Ciconians) etc. There is also a Padva, which reminds us of Italian Padua, which was founded, according to tradition, by the Trojan Antenor and lies in the region of Veneto (the "Eneti" or "Veneti" were allies of the Trojans). What is more, the place-names Tanttala and Sipilä (the mythical King Tantalus, famous for his torment, was buried on Mount Sipylus) indicate that this matter is not only limited to Homeric geography, but seems to extend to the whole world of Greek mythology

http://itis.volta.al...me/ep2vinc2.htm

:-)

You all find this plausible, Greeks writing about myths in the Baltic Area?

Why not the Hellespont in Greece, more likely for a Greeck no? What are those celibrated archeologiical evidences than in the 'Far North'?

(Besides the well understated assumption that there 'has' to have been something that Homer very likely has heard of)