Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Ott]

i would be interested in reading the story that Knul thinks OLB is a word for word copy of

That story only exists in Knuls imagination.

[NO-ID-EA]

Wirte's book looks really interesting , with all the runes he shows , i dont suppose it has been translated into english anywhere ??? i am a bit old in the tooth to start learning a new language

[Ott]

I translated word-for-word part of the first chapter, which you may compare with the Dutch translation of Ottema.

...

was [was] al [al] go=rêd [gouwraad] anda [in de] tys [war] aend [en] al=ên [al een] sa [zo] by [bij] hjara [haar] kvmste [komst]

...

was de geheele Go=raad in de war, en alles even als bij hunne komst.

...

"was al gouwraad in de war en al een zo bij haar komst"

This is just one example of how Knul's word-for-word translation is gibberish, although most Dutch readers will be able to undertand the meaning.

A similar translation can be made in German and in Norwegian.

It shows that syntax did not change as much as many people might expect.

Most authentic medieval Oldfrisian texts can also be translated word-for word.

That does not mean they are fake and made in the 19th century.

If syntax did not change that much in the last 1000 years, then why would it have changed much between 0 and 1000 CE?

[Ott]

Because you are as arrogant as Otharus once was, pretending to know more than anyone else does?

Puzzler:

"Don't worry, I know there is no spilt U's in the OLB text, there is only W - so don't waste your time, I'm miles ahead."

My answer:

Who was being arrogant here?

[Ott]

My point was that the ''double V'' was used as ONE LETTER in the OLB.

If not, explain to me why the name WRALDA was put around the Yule wheel as a word consisting of 6 letters instead of 7 letters.

Yes and no.

Sometimes it was used as one letter, for example around that Jol-wheel.

And many times it is clearly written as two seperate V's, with space in between them.

On the alfabet page (p.46), it was not seen as one individual letter.

[Ott]

Verwijs DID call it the OLB-way because he had made a mistake translating an old Frisian text, as I have shown in part -1- of this thread. And his erroneous etymology of "Leeuwarden" (which he acknowledged to be wrong later on) showed up in the OLB as the original name of Leeuwarden.

Are you suggesting to have evidence that Verwijs created the OLB language?

If you are right, this would be significant and it would be good to repost this, so we can discuss it.

It would not have passed unnoticed.

---

Edit: OK, now I have seen your post #4416 with the newspaper article. but do not see the significance of it.

If it had any, Jensma would have used it in his 2004 thesis. Do you have the source of it, just for the record?

Edited October 21, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

... Gestur does not accept the evidence, that the OLB is a mid 19th century product, but still believes in the nazi ideas of Herman Wirth (1930), which in Germany has been rejected. (1934).

Indeed, I don't accept that so-called "evidence".

I take Wirth seriously, but that does not mean I agree with all his ideas.

For example:

Wirth believed that part of OLB was written by 18th century Frisian humanists.

I don't.

Wirth left (was made to leave) SS-Ahnenerbe in 1936 and was forbidden to publish or lecture untill the end of the war, because he opposed the Hitler-cult (the idea that Hitler was sent by god) and was too outspoken in his criticism of other aspects of the NS ideology. At the end of the war, the 'liberators' destroyed half of his collection and stole the other half.

[Ott]

Wirte's book looks really interesting, with all the runes he shows, i dont suppose it has been translated into english anywhere???

Alas! No, not yet.

[The Puzzler]

I am not or was not stalking your posts.

What do I gain from it?

I was searching for a specific post with a map of ancient india and I happened on your post.

To say the truth, any time and every time you try to be an edo nyland, I will call your goat. for sure!

If it's a valid call I can take it, but for every mistake I make I learn a hundredfold from it, so call it but make sure it's not you who ends up the goat. How you became a linguistic expert due to give calls anyway I don't know...

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler:

"Don't worry, I know there is no spilt U's in the OLB text, there is only W - so don't waste your time, I'm miles ahead."

My answer:

Who was being arrogant here?

I was being annoyed...there's a difference. Obviously I knew there was split U's in the OLB text since I have looked at it a million and one times on Knuls copies and the Tresoar site, your comment about not wanting to waste your time on answering me annoyed me and in my haste to retort back made error in my reply, which I acknowledge. My apologies.

[The Puzzler]

In the use of the V as a U sound and a U as a U sound, what is the difference does anyone think? Why do they use a V sometimes or then a U sometimes to represent U?

The v is a v in some areas, like in Minerva. Then a V is used as a U - as in svn or svnken, fivwer (fiuwer)

Looking at the words, it seems possible that U is used in words where it follows h,j,l and b sounds...? Words like skilun, burch, vnluk (unluck) - V is often used as U in the beginning of a word, vmbe

Edit: Also u may follow an i if the i can also be a j - in liud/ljud for example - but not in words like fivwer.

Can anyone shed some light on this - why is u sometimes used and then v is sometimes used - is there a reason in the make-up of the words and sounds?

Im not talking split U or U with dot or w - I'm starting at the start with simply the u and v as u usage in the words and the pattern they follow in the make-up of the words.

The first two or three paragraphs has a lot of examples: http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html

Edited October 21, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

One would think this explains it but it doesn't seem to:

During the late Middle Ages, two forms of 'v' developed, which were both used for its ancestor 'u' and modern 'v'. The pointed form 'v' was written at the beginning of a word, while a rounded form 'u' was used in the middle or end, regardless of sound. So whereas 'valor' and 'excuse' appeared as in modern printing, 'have' and 'upon' were printed 'haue' and 'vpon'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U

It does to a point but plenty of examples are there where v is used as u in the middle of words. vmbe is an example of the above.

navt should be, according to above, naut -- but it's not and many others are like this - svnken, hvndred etc.

In English the letter is pronounced differently in different words. In closed syllables, it commonly represents /ʌ/ ("short U" as in 'duck') or /ʊ/ (as in 'put'). In open syllables, it commonly represents /u(ː)/ (as in 'blue') or /ju(ː)/ ("long U" as in 'mule').

The v use of u might represent a short u sound? while the u as u may be a long u sound.....?

svn, svnken, hvndred would be examples of a v as a short u sound - liud with u as u may be a long sound word...? but a word like vnluk, which seems to me to be a short u sound - seems to go with the first rule above.

Could this be reasoning do you think? A mix of these 2 rules.

Edited October 21, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Van Gorp]

Me also on iPad, so short.

The above puzzels me too, but several times i read that fe in Oud Or Middel Nederlands the u and v are used as it pleased the author following his pronounciation.

Even one time u and one time v for same word on same page.

Are there rules to write down phonetically i wonder.

[jmccr8]

Hi,

I was just reading this article and thought that I would add it here as several of you are involved in studying language relationships.

Linguist study finds core group of words has survived for 15,000 years

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

This article is about the Burushaski language spoken by 90,000 people in Northwestern Pakistan,it is Indo-European in origin.

Cracking the code on the origins of a new European language

jmccr8

[Ott]

In the use of the V as a U sound and a U as a U sound, what is the difference does anyone think? Why do they use a V sometimes or then a U sometimes to represent U?

This is indeed a good question.

I started investigating this once, but it is much work.

Here are some ideas of how it may be done:

(made with spreadsheet program by Open Office-freeware)

Note: in the fourth row LJÚ-, I forgot to mention that in modern Frisian it is Ljou(-wert).

Since "thousand" and "out" have the same sound as "Ljouwert", this might indicate that the U with a dot (represented by me as Ú here), sounds as in "out".

My impression is that (as Van Gorp said) the use of V and U in OLB is not always done consequently and often the difference between V and U is hardly or not visible.

A statistical analysis may prove that there is a significant difference between various texts - as would be expected if they are written by various authors in various times.

I encourage anyone who wants to dive into this, but right now I myself have other priorities.

[NO-ID-EA]

Lund University Archaeologists discover "Swedish Pompeii "

http://www.lunduniversity.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=24890&news_item=6097

[Knul]

Curious !

In the story Eolus (p. 28) by Dr. J.H. Halbertsma (1836) I read the following expression in Frisian:

dat komt dat syn hjerring daer nou net briedt

In a poem Ald Janom by his brother Dr. E.H. Halbertsma:

Myn hjerring bret hjir net.

cfr. OLB Ottema

that hja hjara hering navt vp vsa fjvr brêda ne mochton.

A very good indication, that the OLB has been written by the Halbertsma's.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Knul

[Abramelin]

Are you suggesting to have evidence that Verwijs created the OLB language?

If you are right, this would be significant and it would be good to repost this, so we can discuss it.

It would not have passed unnoticed.

---

Edit: OK, now I have seen your post #4416 with the newspaper article. but do not see the significance of it.

If it had any, Jensma would have used it in his 2004 thesis. Do you have the source of it, just for the record?

I know I had the source, but I can't find it right now.

But I posted it in part-1- of this thread. Maybe Puzz, Knul, Van Gorp, or others know.

I think it it's something from Van den Berg.

+++

EDIT:

Otharus knows, heh

..

Edited October 24, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Yes and no.

Sometimes it was used as one letter, for example around that Jol-wheel.

And many times it is clearly written as two seperate V's, with space in between them.

On the alfabet page (p.46), it was not seen as one individual letter.

It was an individual letter, like the -GS- letter, which was also not on the original letter sheet. Ottema added that letter on his version of the letter sheet, but forgot about the -W- .

The -W- was a letter alright. OK, sometimes written as two Vs, sometimes as a W.

And on that Yule wheel it was a single letter.

Or else the name WRALDA - made out of SIX letters - would not have fit around the Yule wheel.

[Abramelin]

The Oera Linda Book is a 19th-century manuscript written in Old Frisian. It purports to cover historical, mythological, and religious themes of remote antiquity, compiled between 2194 BC and AD 803.

The manuscript's author is not known with certainty, and it is hence unknown whether the intention was to produce a hoax, a parody or simply an exercise in poetic fantasy.

The manuscript first came to public awareness in the 1860s. In 1872, Jan Gerhardus Ottema published a Dutch translation and defended it as "genuine". Over the next few years there was a heated public controversy, but by 1879 it was universally recognized that the text was a recent composition. Nevertheless, a public controversy was revived in the context of 1930s Nazi occultism, and the book is still occasionally brought up in esotericism and "Atlantis" literature.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Oera_Linda

Gawd, you really think that after discussing the book for 4 years, we wouldn't have posted/found the Wiki page??

It must have been one of the first posts, lol, 20,000 posts ago.

[Ott]

Good find, but invalid conclusion.

A very good indication, that the OLB has been written by the Halbertsma's.

J.H. Halbertsma (1789-1869):

dat komt dat syn hjerring daer nou net briedt

... his herring does not bake there now

E.H. Halbertsma (1797-1858):

Myn hjerring bret hjir net.

my herring does not bake here

OLB:

that hja hjara hering navt vp vsa fjvr brêda ne mochton

that they could not bake their herring on our fire

Spreekwoordenboek der Nederlandsche taal (Dictionary of Dutch proverbs) by P.J. Harrebomée (1860):

Zijn haring wil hier niet gaar braden.

His herring does not bake well-done here.

(references: Winschooten bl. 77. Tuinman I. bl. 51. Everts bl. 343. v.d. Hulst bl. 13. v. Eijk I. nal. bl. 5, II. nal. bl. 14. Drenthe bl. 207. Sancho-Pança bl. 25. Bogaert bl. 34.)

The Halbertsma´s were folklorists.

They will not have invented a new proverb, but used a traditional one.

[Ott]

And on that Yule wheel it was a single letter.

On that wheel it was used as being one letter allright.

But why do you think the English still call the letter double-U?

[Knul]

Good find, but invalid conclusion.

J.H. Halbertsma (1789-1869):

dat komt dat syn hjerring daer nou net briedt

... his herring does not bake there now

E.H. Halbertsma (1797-1858):

Myn hjerring bret hjir net.

my herring does not bake here

OLB:

that hja hjara hering navt vp vsa fjvr brêda ne mochton

that they could not bake their herring on our fire

Spreekwoordenboek der Nederlandsche taal (Dictionary of Dutch proverbs) by P.J. Harrebomée (1860):

Zijn haring wil hier niet gaar braden.

His herring does not bake well-done here.

(references: Winschooten bl. 77. Tuinman I. bl. 51. Everts bl. 343. v.d. Hulst bl. 13. v. Eijk I. nal. bl. 5, II. nal. bl. 14. Drenthe bl. 207. Sancho-Pança bl. 25. Bogaert bl. 34.)

The Halbertsma´s were folklorists.

They will not have invented a new proverb, but used a traditional one.

Good find, but invalid conclusion.

J.H. Halbertsma (1789-1869):

dat komt dat syn hjerring daer nou net briedt

... his herring does not bake there now

E.H. Halbertsma (1797-1858):

Myn hjerring bret hjir net.

my herring does not bake here

OLB:

that hja hjara hering navt vp vsa fjvr brêda ne mochton

that they could not bake their herring on our fire

Spreekwoordenboek der Nederlandsche taal (Dictionary of Dutch proverbs) by P.J. Harrebomée (1860):

Zijn haring wil hier niet gaar braden.

His herring does not bake well-done here.

(references: Winschooten bl. 77. Tuinman I. bl. 51. Everts bl. 343. v.d. Hulst bl. 13. v. Eijk I. nal. bl. 5, II. nal. bl. 14. Drenthe bl. 207. Sancho-Pança bl. 25. Bogaert bl. 34.)

The Halbertsma´s were folklorists.

They will not have invented a new proverb, but used a traditional one.

This is exactly the reason to link Halbertsma with the OLB.

[Knul]

I wonder why the Hunenburg has not yet been brought op with regard to the description of a burch in the OLB. s. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunenborg . You may find the description in the Overijsselsche Almanak.