Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Ott]

Some relevant quotes from "De Germanen en het christendom. Een bewogen ontmoeting (5de – 7de eeuw)", author Pierre Trouillez.

("The Germanic Tribes and Christianity. A fierce encounter, 5th - 7th century")

quote 1 - page 133 (my underlining)

In 455 things didn't go more meek in Braga. After the Visigoth king Theoderik II had taken the Sueban capital, 'the sacred basilica was broken in, the altars were knocked down and shattered, the devoted virgins were taken away, but respectfully treated, and the clerics were disrobed to the limits of the appropriate.' (Hydatius of Chaves, Chronicle, 174)

Original text:

In 455 ging het er in Braga niet zachtzinniger aan toe. Nadat de Visigothische koning Theoderik II de Suevische hoofdstad ingenomen had, 'werd in de basilieken van de heiligen binnengebroken, werden de altaren omvergegooid en verbrijzeld, de gewijde maagden weggevoerd, maar met respect behandeld, en de clerici ontkleed tot aan de grenzen van het welvoeglijke.' (Hydatius van Chaves, Kroniek, 174)

My comments:

Most interesting is that these 'barbarians' treated the devoted virgins with respect. This would be expected if they were from a tradition that had FÁMNA as described in OLB.

Also interesting are the names of the Germanic kings and queens, as their meaning can almost always be explained with the OLB-language: Theoderik = THJUD - RIK = folk/ people - rich

Edited November 9, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

quote 2 - page 138 (my underlining):

Long before the time of the christian Roman Empire, heathen intellectuals had left the polytheism of the common people and turned their spirit to the highest One of neoplatonism. The criticism of religion from the Greek mythologist Euhemerus († ca. 260 BCE) fitted in that tradition. In his Sacred History [Hiera Anagraphê] he had argued that the Greek gods were originally very heroic and meritorious mortals, who had begotten devine traits in the collective memory of humanity.

Original text:

Reeds lang vóór de tijd van het christelijke Romijnse Rijk hadden heidense intellectuelen afscheid genomen van het volkse polytheïsme en hun geest naar het hoogste Ene van het neoplatonisme gekeerd. Daaraan was de godsdienstkritiek van de Griekse mytholoog Euhemerus († circa 260 v.C.) niet vreemd. In Het heilige opschrift [Hiera Anagraphê] had hij betoogd dat de Griekse goden oorspronkelijk bijzonder heldhaftige en verdienstelijke mensen waren geweest, die in het collectieve geheugen van de mensheid goddelijke trekken hadden gekregen.

Comment:

This also fits very well with the tradition as described in the OLB. The highest One being Wralda and all mythological gods and goddesses explained as having been heroic mortals who were deified by priesthoods (Wodin, Neptune, Minerva, Buda, etc.).

A general comment about the whole book:

In the first few centuries of christianity, there was a fierce and bloody fight between two varieties of the Christian religion. The Germanic tribes had easily accepted a belief in One God and the teachings of the wise mortal Christ, but they could not accept the (later Roman Catholic) idea of the holy Trinity (a.o. Jesus being son of god and/or equal to god) and initial sin. They were so-called Arianists (named after Arius (ca. 250–336 CE)). Many of these tribes later adopted Islam, which also has just one god (of All, not one chosen people) and the messengers (prophets) as mortals.

This is very much like the philosophy of the OLB, in which priesthoods that deify mortals (drochtne, idols) are fiercly rejected and stressed that there is only one supreme creator (beginning and end of all): VVR-ALDA.

I will try to explain this better later, I think it is highly relevant.

[Abramelin]

The biblical flood, which destroyed Aldland covered the whole known world. It happened in 2193 BC. The OLB refers to this big flood as is shown on the pages of the Frisian Almanak. It is a waste of time to look for a historical, archeological or geological evidence for this. You won't find.

It's only a suggestion that the 2914 event was the Biblical Flood, but, yes, the creators of the OLB must have used the date of the Biblical Flood according to their Frisian Almanac.

Doggerland - Overwijn's idea of Aldland - submerged 6150 BCE after a catastrophic flood/tsunami that must have lasted for days. There is more than enough geological and archeological evidence for this event. It only happened 4000 years earlier than the OLB suggested. And most importantly: it wasn't about Aldland.

But it was known in the 18th and 19th century (read Willem van Haren's epic poem about Friso, of which I posted and translated part of) that Brittain was once attached to Europe. But that connection disappeared thousands of years earlier than Van Haren thought it did.

[Ott]

Quote 3, page 149 - about "Etymologiae" by Isidore of Seville (c. 560 – 636)

Some explanations are still valid (...) But others will shock modern etymologists will, like the one for avis (bird): 'Doves, partridges, swallows (...) are called aves (birds), because they don't follow a fixed road (via), but use places without roads (avia) to move back and forth.'

Original text:

Sommige verklaringen gelden tot vandaag (...) Maar op vele andere zullen moderne etymologen onthutst reageren, zoals op die van avis (vogel): 'Duiven, patrijzen, zwaluwen (...) worden aves (vogels) genoemd, omdat ze geen vaste weg (via) volgen, maar plaatsen zonder wegen (avia) gebruiken om zich heen en weer te bewegen.'

Comment:

This is for anyone who still thinks that OLB can not be authentic, because it has some etymologies that seem silly.

Is Isidore's "Etymologiae" fake, because some of his etymologies are beyond weird?

Edited November 9, 2013 by gestur

[Abramelin]

Why is Egypt called "Egipteland" in the OLB?

Because that was the way it was called - some times - in the Dutch Protestant Bible dating from the 17th century (of which I have a copy).

I don't have a link to that Dutch edition right now, but if you have, check Isaiah 19:18-20.

---

Something else:

101 years after the submergence of Aldland, a people came from the east of Fryan territory, a people the Fryans called "Finnar", with their priest caste called the "Magiar".

The OLB talks about "prester" or priest in English. In Dutch that would be "priester".

But "prester" or "priester" or "priest" is derived from Latin "presbyter", which in its turn is derived from the Greek "presbuteros" meaning "the elder".

It's a word borrowed from church latin.

In short: another anachronism.

[Abramelin]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Anno_Mundi

That doesn't explain the 2194 BCE date either.

[Abramelin]

It's nothing compared to the disaster described in the OLB.

At least it's REAL, lol.

[Abramelin]

Just like OLB has much spelling variety, there is also variety in the use of W: sometimes as one letter (e.g. around that wheel), sometimes as clearly seperate V's (and why it does not show up in the alfabet sheet).

I don't see the significance of this.

Do you think it somehow supports your claim of OLB being a hoax?

I don't know if it supports my claim, but there is certainly something not ok.

The -W- is a real letter in the OLB alfabet (see the Yule wheel with WRALDA written around it), but it doesn't show up in the letter sheet of the original MS.

Like the -GS-, which Ottema added in his version of the letter sheet, and forgetting to add the -W-.

What is the significance of this? That it shows the MS is certainly NOT dating from around 600 BCE :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W#History

.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Abramelin

[Knul]

Some relevant quotes from "De Germanen en het christendom. Een bewogen ontmoeting (5de – 7de eeuw)", author Pierre Trouillez.

("The Germanic Tribes and Christianity. A fierce encounter, 5th - 7th century")

quote 1 - page 133 (my underlining)

In 455 things didn't go more meek in Braga. After the Visigoth king Theoderik II had taken the Sueban capital, 'the sacred basilica was broken in, the altars were knocked down and shattered, the devoted virgins were taken away, but respectfully treated, and the clerics were disrobed to the limits of the appropriate.' (Hydatius of Chaves, Chronicle, 174)

Original text:

In 455 ging het er in Braga niet zachtzinniger aan toe. Nadat de Visigothische koning Theoderik II de Suevische hoofdstad ingenomen had, 'werd in de basilieken van de heiligen binnengebroken, werden de altaren omvergegooid en verbrijzeld, de gewijde maagden weggevoerd, maar met respect behandeld, en de clerici ontkleed tot aan de grenzen van het welvoeglijke.' (Hydatius van Chaves, Kroniek, 174)

My comments:

Most interesting is that these 'barbarians' treated the devoted virgins with respect. This would be expected if they were from a tradition that had FÁMNA as described in OLB.

Also interesting are the names of the Germanic kings and queens, as their meaning can almost always be explained with the OLB-language: Theoderik = THJUD - RIK = folk/ people - rich

So you think Diederik (Dirk, Theoderik) comes from Thjud-rik ?

[Knul]

This is very much like the philosophy of the OLB, in which priesthoods that deify mortals (drochtne, idols) are fiercly rejected and stressed that there is only one supreme creator (beginning and end of all): VVR-ALDA.

I would say it is very much like 19th century protestantism projected on Keltic times. You remember the beeldenstorm to remove pictures and statues from Roman Catholic churches.

[Knul]

Interesting footnote (43) from Jensma (2004), chaper 6, page 395.

There seems to be significant agreement between Rudbecks Atlantica and the OLB. In one paragraph of Atlantica for example, four corresponding elements are found: Rudbeck's Yol is connected to Kronos, the 'Julfather', who is the same as OLB's 'allfather'. (...) Moreover, this 'Julfather' holds a wheel (of time) in his left hand, which is connected to the rune-script, just like in the OLB; Rudbeck, Atlantica I, 698-699: 'Idcirco Cronum Julfader sive Atinum cum rota in sinistra manu, teste Vossio, pinxerunt veteres, & initium anni, quo cum solis conversione conjunctum erat, in fastis suis Runicis nonnunquam rota apposita signaverunt.'; compare Eriksson, Atlantic Vision, 72. Also, central concepts are mentioned like the 'folksmother' (e.g. Rudbeck, Atlantica II, 438, 'folkesmoder') and Atlantis, named 'Atlant' here, just like in the OLB (e.g. Rudbeck, Atlantica I, 212 and further).

Original text:

Er lijkt een aanzienlijke overeenkomst tussen Rudbecks Atlantica en het Oera Linda-boek te bestaan. Zo komt men hier in één enkele alinea tenminste vier overeenkomstige elementen tegen: het 'jol' wordt door Rudbeck in verband gebracht met Kronos de 'Julfader', die ook bij Rudbeck dezelfde is als de in het Oera Linda-boek opduikende 'alvader'. (...) Bovendien houdt deze 'Julvader' in zijn linkerhand een wiel (van de tijd), waarmee precies als in het Oera Linda-boek het runenschrift in verband wordt gebracht; Rudbeck, Atlantica I, 698-699: 'Idcirco Cronum Julfader sive Atinum cum rota in sinistra manu, teste Vossio, pinxerunt veteres, & initium anni, quo cum solis conversione conjunctum erat, in fastis suis Runicis nonnunquam rota apposita signaverunt.'; vgl. Eriksson, Atlantic Vision, 72. Ook centrale begrippen als de 'volksmoeder' (b.v. Rudbeck, Atlantica II, 438, 'folkesmoder') en Atlantis, dat hier net als in het Oera Linda-boek 'Atlant' wordt genoemd (b.v. Rudbeck, Atlantica I, 212 e.v.) komen voor.

Does anyone have acces to Rudbeck's Atlantica?

Ofcourse, Jensma assumes that Atlantica will have been a source of inspiration for OLB, but what was Rudbeck's source? His information may have had roots in real history, as may OLB. In other words, both may be seperate traces of real ancient traditions.

The objects are astronomical instruments.

[Abramelin]

There has been a recent investigation of the paper. It has been discussed here before. Abramelin will remember.

I do:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.nl/search/label/4-%20The%20Oera%20Linda%20Boek%20-%20A%20literary%20forgery%20and%20its%20paper

[Abramelin]

Where did the Greeks get it from?

From the Phoenicians.

And then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script

.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Hi Abe,

God to see you posting again I hope all is well with you.

jmccr8

I am ok, and thanks J.

[Knul]

I do:

http://oeralinda.blo...y and its paper

Thanks a lot. I just wonder if there has been written a follow up article as had been promised.

[Ott]

... "Egipteland" in the OLB?

... that was the way it was called - some times - in the Dutch Protestant Bible dating from the 17th century

Why was it called that in the 17th C. bible?

Because that was how people called it long before that bible was printed.

The OLB talks about "prester" or priest in English. (...)

It's a word borrowed from church latin.

On 'etymologiebank' it says:

"Ontleend, wrsch. via een vulgair-Latijnse vorm *prester ‘priester’..."

=> probably derived from ... etc.

I think the words may be related, but not that prester is derived from presbyter or presbuteros.

Edited November 10, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

What is the significance of this? That it shows the MS is certainly NOT dating from around 600 BCE : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W#History

I don't see any "certainty" there.

So you think Diederik (Dirk, Theoderik) comes from Thjud-rik ?

yes

[Ott]

I would say it is very much like 19th century protestantism projected on Keltic times. You remember the beeldenstorm to remove pictures and statues from Roman Catholic churches.

In the 10 commandments it already says do not make any carved images.

(That will not have been the first time either.)

Nothing new under the sun.

[NO-ID-EA]

You folks may have heard this before , but it was new to me .....From the history of Carausius..transcribed from a manuscript of Robert of Gloucester's Chronicle

1176 - 1204 or 1209 - 1358 ?

............says of Deae Nyhellenia the tutelar Goddess of the Zeelanders and Menapians that on the 5th January 1647 a violent easterly gale blew up , and drove back the sea ,exposing previously underwater buildings and items of some age , this was in Walkeren, between West Cappell and Domburg , amongst these ancient ruins the nearby inhabitants found Altars , Medals , Urns and a number of statues, several of which were of a Goddess who was previously unknown at that time,( i presume they mean she had been forgotten ) her name was disclosed on the inscriptions of one of her statues......

DEAE NEHALLENIA.......................................Trans as........Goddess Nehallenia

SERVATUS...........................................................................Protectoress of

THERONIS FILIUS.................................................................Son of Theron

V.S.L.M.............................................Vitas,Solvit,Lubens,Merito or Who gladly equited his vows for favours shown....................

according to the author ny-hellene was originally a Phoenician/assyrian Goddess ( but adopted by the Greeks ) called Ny-Sellene or new moon , she was the seafarers Goddess as she was known to have control of the ebb and flow of the tides , and to be the Goddess that at certain times when a high tide occurred at the time of a new moon (ny-Sellene) that was the dangerous time for flooding.

Edited November 10, 2013 by NO-ID-EA

[Ott]

VVR.ALDA => Vrotalt, Urotalt, Ourotalt

Read and weep.

De Diis Germanis, Elias Schedivs (1728), p.157

"Arabes alias, teste Herodot. in Clio, Solem dixerunt Vrotalt, id est, Lucis Deum, itemque Dusarem, vel Daisarem, id est, perlustrantem Deum."

source

Geographie der Griechen und Römer aus ihren Schriften dargestellt, Konrad Mannert (1831), p.24-25

"... nennen den Dionysus Urotalt (Ουροταλτ)...

Urotal erklärt er für Erat-allah, Gott des Feuers...

Ob der Gott Urotalt, welchen Herodot so wie die Allita blos dey den nördlichern Arabern hatte kennen lernen, einerley mit der Hauptgottheit der südlichern Länder ist, weiss ich nicht zu sagen. ...

... Sonne und Mond (welches immer noch Urotalt und die Alitta bezeichnen kann), ...

Zuverlässig aber wurde Bacchus, welchen Herodot Urotalt nennt, in der Legend von Mecca auch unter dem Namen Dusares oder Dysares verehrt; ..."

source

Draft chapters of a treatise on the origin of religion and its corruption, Isaac Newton (c. 1690)

"Bacchus was the proper god of the Arabians & therefore their common father. ffor Herodotus (lib 3 initio) tells us Arabes Dionysium quem Vrotalt & Vraniam quam Alilat appellant [id est Bacchum et Venerem] solos Deorum esse arbitrantur: ..."

source

Buch des Kabus oder Lehren des persischen Königs Kjekjawus für seinen Sohn Ghilan Schach, Kaika'us Ibn-Iskanda, translated by Heinrich F. von Diez (1811) p.211

"Zu Zeiten Hiobs aus Esaus Geschlecht nemlich haben die Araber, wie obgedacht, Gott in der Wahrheit erkannt, und wenn wir die Abfassung dieses Buchs ins Jahr der Welt 2300 oder, wie einige wollen, noch etwas weiter zurück näher an die Zeiten Jacobs setzen, der im Jahre der Welt 2255 starb: so müssen wir urtheilen, dass sie zwölf Jahrhunderte vor Herodot noch im Besitz der unverfälschten Offenbarung gewesen. Wir müssen ferner annehmen, dass sie vom rechten Wege noch nicht abgewichen waren im Jahre der Welt 2952, als die Königin von Saba nach Jerusalem kam, welches 548 Jahre vor Herodot geschehen. Allein zur Zeit des letztem waren die Araber schon Götzendiener geworden, denn dieser Geschichtschreiber, welcher seine Geschichte ums Jahr der Welt 3500 schrieb, folglich 1112 Jahre zuvor, ehe Muhammed zu lehren angefangen, meldet, dass die Araber den Bacchus und die Urania verehrten. Den erstem nennt er mit einem verdorbenen arabischen Worte Urotalt und die letztere heisst er Alitta und Alilat. Urotalt soll wahrscheinlich Utarid (...) seyn, welches sonst Mercurius bedeutet, der vom Stamme Asad verehrt ward ."

source

Maandelyksche berichten uit de andere waereld of de sprekende dooden (February 1769), p.122

"Zo is door den geleerden Calmet aangetoond, dat de Arabiers en Ismaëliten, eertyd Bacchus en Urama of Venus in dien tempel dienden; zo verhaalt ook Herodotus, dat ze geene anderen Godheden dan deeze hebben aangebede, de eerste van welke zy Urotalt, en de laatste Alilat noemden; hoe wel Strabo, een later schryver, verzekerd, dat ze, in vervolg van tyd Jupiter, de Zon, Maan en Demons aanbaden; doch hoe ze aan het verdichtsel zyn gekomen, dat Abraham dien tempel heeft gebouwd, weet mogelyk niemand te zeggen."

source

Bijbel der natuur - Twaalfde deel, Johann Jacob Scheuchzer, vertaling L. Meijer (1792), p.623

Register: "Uranus Urotalt, de Zon. III.1109. IX.657"

source

Algemeene histori van het begin der wereld af tot den tegenwoordigen tyd toe, Volume 2, translated from English by Kornelis Westerbaen (1741) p.423

"Een hedensdaegsch Schrijver (1) meent, dat d'Arabiërs en Ismaëliten eertijds Bacchus en Urania of Venus in dien tempel dienden: want Herodotus verhaelt, datze geene andere godheden, dan deeze hebben aengebeden, d'eerste van welke zij Urotalt, en de laetste Alilat noemen (2); hoewel andere laeter Schrijvers zeggen, datze ook Jupiter, de zon, maen, en de demons aenbaden (3). Hoe het hiermede gelegen zij, of niet, het is allerwaerschijnlijkst, dat d'altaer en het bosch, van Abraham te Berseba opgerecht (4), d'eerste gelegenheid tot deeze verziering heeft gegeeven, dat die tempel door hem gebouwd is."

source

Das orakelwesen im Alterthume, Franziska Hoffmann (1880) p.20

"Das Bakidische Orakel auf Creta.

Wenn man den Zusammenhang zwischen dem Orient und Griechenland, zwischen dem Mysterien- und dem Orakelwesen festhalten will, so ist es nöthig die Verknüpfung zu kennen, in welcher der orientalische Bakis oder Bacchos zu dem griechischen Apollo stand. Im Anfange hatten die Griechen nur ausländische Götter, welche sie nationalisirten, später durch einheimische ersetzten und deren verschiedene Mythen mit einander verschmolzen. So auch gab es zwei Bacchosgötter. Der zweite Bacchos war Dionysos, Sohn der Semele; der erste war nach Herodot der arabische Gott Ourotalt, dessen Dienst von den Syriern und Phöniziern angenommen worden war, ehe er durch Melampus und Cadmos den Griechen bekannt wurde. Er ist der eigentlich mystische Bacchos, Mittelpunkt der Zagreusmythe, Mittelpunkt der Sabaziusfabel, die mit dem Dienst von Samothrake verknüpft war; von ihm stammen die Eleusinischen Mysterien mit der Jacchosmythe; von ihm stammen die bacchischen Orgien, wobei die Bacchantinnen bekanntlich ein Rehkalb zerrissen und das rohe Fleisch davon assen."

source

The Archaeology of the District - The Finds at the Great Zimbabwe Ruins, J.T.Bent (1892) p.189-191

"... the creative powers of mankind.

A curious confirmation of this is found in the pages of Herodotus (Herod.Bk.III.par.8), who tells us:'The Arabians of all the gods only worshipped Dionysus, whom they called Ourotalt, and Urania;' that is to say, they worshipped the two deities which, in the mind of the father of history, represented in themselves all that was known of the mysteries of creation, pointing to the very earliest period of Arabian cult, prior ro the more refined religious development of the Sabaeo-Himyaritic dynasty, when Sun-worship, veneration for the great luminary which regenerated all animal and vegetable life, superseded the grosser forms of nature-worship, to be itself somewhat superseded or rather incorporated in a worship of all the heavenly luminaries, which developed as a knowledge of astronomy was aquired."

source1

source2

Curieuse Aenmerckingen der bysonderste Oost en West-Indische Verwonderens-waerdige Dingen, IV Deel, Simon de Vries (1682) p.1023

"By d'Arabiers salfden de Bond-verwanten seven Stenen met haer eygen Bloed; roepende daer by den Urotalt en Alilat: Welcke eenige voor Dionysius en Urania houden"

source

Edited November 11, 2013 by gestur

[Abramelin]

[/size]

I don't see any "certainty" there.

Of course you don't. But most others do.

[Abramelin]

Why was it called that in the 17th C. bible?

Because that was how people called it long before that bible was printed.

[/size]

On 'etymologiebank' it says:

"Ontleend, wrsch. via een vulgair-Latijnse vorm *prester ‘priester’..."

=> probably derived from ... etc.

I think the words may be related, but not that prester is derived from presbyter or presbuteros.

It was ONLY called that way in the Dutch Protestant Bible of the 17th century. Nowhere else.

Think about that one. Or are you again suggesting that they may have had access to some unknown ancient manuscript?

=

It is fact that "prester/priester" is derived from Old Church Latin "presbyter". If you have another, alternative and older source, please post it.

Btw: I have a copy of Dr. J. de Vries' "Etymologisch Woordenboek - Waar komen onze woorden vandaan?" ("Etymological Dictionary - Where do our words come from?", from 1973, 10th edition). His introduction to his book is quite interesting too.

.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

VVR.ALDA => Vrotalt, Urotalt, Ourotalt

Read and weep.

The first -T- doesn't doesn't just disappear on command, as much as you'd want it to be.

[Abramelin]

Thanks a lot. I just wonder if there has been written a follow up article as had been promised.

Despite Gestur's/Otharus' love of conspiracies, I think it's nothing but a money and time problem.

[Abramelin]

You folks may have heard this before , but it was new to me .....From the history of Carausius..transcribed from a manuscript of Robert of Gloucester's Chronicle

1176 - 1204 or 1209 - 1358 ?

............says of Deae Nyhellenia the tutelar Goddess of the Zeelanders and Menapians that on the 5th January 1647 a violent easterly gale blew up , and drove back the sea ,exposing previously underwater buildings and items of some age , this was in Walkeren, between West Cappell and Domburg , amongst these ancient ruins the nearby inhabitants found Altars , Medals , Urns and a number of statues, several of which were of a Goddess who was previously unknown at that time,( i presume they mean she had been forgotten ) her name was disclosed on the inscriptions of one of her statues......

DEAE NEHALLENIA.......................................Trans as........Goddess Nehallenia

SERVATUS...........................................................................Protectoress of

THERONIS FILIUS.................................................................Son of Theron

V.S.L.M.............................................Vitas,Solvit,Lubens,Merito or Who gladly equited his vows for favours shown....................

according to the author ny-hellene was originally a Phoenician/assyrian Goddess ( but adopted by the Greeks ) called Ny-Sellene or new moon , she was the seafarers Goddess as she was known to have control of the ebb and flow of the tides , and to be the Goddess that at certain times when a high tide occurred at the time of a new moon (ny-Sellene) that was the dangerous time for flooding.

Yes, itsn't new to me. I have posted about this a year or more ago.