Abramelin Posted November 12, 2013 Author #4676 Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) In the 10 commandments it already says do not make any carved images. (That will not have been the first time either.) Nothing new under the sun. You have an example of another, older religion that has the same command? . Edited November 12, 2013 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 12, 2013 #4677 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Of course you don't. But most others do. THÀT MÁRA.DÉL KÀN ALSA BLÍD DWÁLA SA HÀT MINRA.DÉL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 12, 2013 #4678 Share Posted November 12, 2013 "Egipteland" It was ONLY called that way in the Dutch Protestant Bible of the 17th century. Nowhere else. OLB (p.73): ÉGIPTALANDA Icelandic: Egyptaland or Egiptaland Did the Icelanders get this spelling from the Dutch bible? It is fact that "prester/priester" is derived from Old Church Latin "presbyter". Learn to read better: On 'etymologiebank' it says:"Ontleend, wrsch. via een vulgair-Latijnse vorm *prester ‘priester’..." => probably derived from ... etc. "Waarschijnlijk" (probably) means it is NOT "fact". In my Latin dictionary I see other possible related words: praeses = beschermer, verdediger, bestuurder, heerser, stadhouder, landvoogd (protector, ruler, etc) praetor = consul, krijgsoverste, stadhouder (thus similar to praeses) praetor maximus = dictator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 12, 2013 #4679 Share Posted November 12, 2013 The first -T- doesn't doesn't just disappear on command, as much as you'd want it to be. This name is in various sources related to Allah, the sun, light-god, fire-god, Osisris, Bacchus, Dionysos, supreme-god, creator-god, etc. All this long before Islam. The name has UR/ VR and ALT/ ALD. All coincidence? I think not. This was the spelling by Herod, Arabian sources may have many other spellings. In almost 150 years of OLB-study, no-one ever came with this clue, It begs for further investigation. Two more sources/ spellings I just found: pantheon.org/orotal arturjotaef-numancia.blogspot/osiris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 12, 2013 #4680 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Despite Gestur's/Otharus' love of conspiracies You are the one who believes OLB is the result of a conspiracy. I don't. There have been good reasons to ignore, ridicule, demonise or lie about the OLB: M. de Jong (1927, "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek") made clear that some saw the book as dangerous: "Some see the OLB as the deceptive masterpiece of dark powers, created with the apparent goal of undermining the foundations of church and society." Original text: "er zijn er ook, die in het Oera-Linda-Boek het bedrieglijk kunstwerk van machten der duisternis zien, vervaardigd met het blijkbare doel de grondslagen van Kerk en Maatschappij te ondermijnen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 12, 2013 #4681 Share Posted November 12, 2013 You have an example of another, older religion that has the same command? I don't need one. My post was a reply to Knul, who suggested that the aversion of idol-images in OLB referred to the iconoclastic fury of the reformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted November 12, 2013 #4682 Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) "Egipteland" In my Latin dictionary I see other possible related words: praeses = beschermer, verdediger, bestuurder, heerser, stadhouder, landvoogd (protector, ruler, etc) praetor = consul, krijgsoverste, stadhouder (thus similar to praeses) praetor maximus = dictator It is one of the big mistakes to relate OLB words to Latin, because Latin did not yet exist in pre-Roman Celtic times. The etymology cannot go further than Old-Frisian texts (13th century). Yet prester, -ar cannot be derived from praeses or praetor. A better derivation then presbuteros would be from praestare - stand in front (voorganger). Edited November 12, 2013 by Knul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 12, 2013 #4683 Share Posted November 12, 2013 It is one of the big mistakes to relate OLB words to Latin, because Latin did not yet exist in pre-Roman Celtic times. The etymology cannot go further than Old-Frisian texts (13th century). Yet prester, -ar cannot be derived from praeses or praetor. A better derivation then presbuteros would be from praestare - stand in front (voorganger). Interesting. From Middle English preist, preest, from Old English prēost (“priest”), from Late Latin presbyter, from Ancient Greek πρεσβύτερος (presbuteros), from πρέσβυς (presbus, “elder, older”), originally "one who leads cattle," from Proto-Indo-European *pres (“before”), extended form of *pre, + *gʷōus (“cattle”). http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 12, 2013 #4684 Share Posted November 12, 2013 (edited) You folks may have heard this before , but it was new to me .....From the history of Carausius..transcribed from a manuscript of Robert of Gloucester's Chronicle 1176 - 1204 or 1209 - 1358 ? ............says of Deae Nyhellenia the tutelar Goddess of the Zeelanders and Menapians that on the 5th January 1647 a violent easterly gale blew up , and drove back the sea ,exposing previously underwater buildings and items of some age , this was in Walkeren, between West Cappell and Domburg , amongst these ancient ruins the nearby inhabitants found Altars , Medals , Urns and a number of statues, several of which were of a Goddess who was previously unknown at that time,( i presume they mean she had been forgotten ) her name was disclosed on the inscriptions of one of her statues...... DEAE NEHALLENIA.......................................Trans as........Goddess Nehallenia SERVATUS...........................................................................Protectoress of THERONIS FILIUS.................................................................Son of Theron V.S.L.M.............................................Vitas,Solvit,Lubens,Merito or Who gladly equited his vows for favours shown.................... according to the author ny-hellene was originally a Phoenician/assyrian Goddess ( but adopted by the Greeks ) called Ny-Sellene or new moon , she was the seafarers Goddess as she was known to have control of the ebb and flow of the tides , and to be the Goddess that at certain times when a high tide occurred at the time of a new moon (ny-Sellene) that was the dangerous time for flooding. I wonder if Theron is the one who is in Pindars poem...? Not sure if I knew that she was called Ny-Sellene though, the OLB states she is Minerva, but maybe Athena and Minerva are not really the same. Stemming from an Italic moon goddess *Meneswā ('She who measures'), the Etruscans adopted the inherited Old Latin name, *Menerwā, thereby calling her Menrva. It is assumed that her Roman name, Minerva, is based on this Etruscan mythology, Minerva was the goddess of wisdom, war, art, schools and commerce. She was the Etruscan counterpart to Greek Athena. Like Athena, Minerva was born from the head of her father, Jupiter (Greek Zeus). By a process of folk etymology, the Romans could have linked her foreign name to the root men- in Latin words such as mens meaning "mind", perhaps because one of her aspects as goddess pertained to the intellectual. The word mens is built from the Proto-Indo-European root *men- 'mind' (linked with memory as in Greek Mnemosyne/μνημοσύνη and mnestis/μνῆστις: memory, remembrance, recollection, Manush in Sanskrit meaning mind ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva I like this image of her... I've heard men as measure from moon - if this was an old inherited Latin name, wouldn't it be IE anyway...? I'd rather think than being a separate PIE root, that mens as mind, also stemmed from 'measures' as this could be interpreted into many things. The OLB gives Min as my/mine, as does this - mīn 10, mī-n, afries., Poss.-Pron.: nhd. mein (Poss.-Pron.); ne. my, mine (Poss.-Pron.); so it's not geling with men as measure (men is think in Frisian dictionary) or men as mind - only as Minerva. How did Minerva transform into an Italic Moon Goddess I wonder. The references to the sea might connect her to Nyhellenia/Minerva. I always thought the Athena with Victory statue looked very much like the Nyhellenia statues they found, with her foot on the ship. The OLB also gives an idea of how Minerva even became a Goddess and how manipulating those in control were... Now, instead of purifying the people, you have invented foul festivals, in which they have so long revelled that they wallow like swine in the mire to atone for your evil passions. The people began to mock and to jeer, so that she did not dare to pursue the subject; and one would have thought that they would have called all the people together to drive us out of the land; but no, in place of abusing her they went all about from the heathenish Krekaland to the Alps, proclaiming that it had pleased the Almighty God to send his clever daughter Min-erva, surnamed Nyhellenia, over the sea in a cloud to give people good counsel, and that all who listened to her should become rich and happy, and in the end governors of all the kingdoms of the earth. They erected statues to her on all their altars, they announced and sold to the simple people advice that she had never given, and related miracles that she had never performed. They cunningly made themselves masters of our laws and customs, and by craft and subtlety were able to explain and spread them around. They appointed priestesses under their own care, who were apparently under the protection of Festa, our first Eeremoeder, to watch over the holy lamp; but that lamp they lit themselves, and instead of imbuing the priestesses with wisdom, and then sending them to watch the sick and educate the young, they made them stupid and ignorant, and never allowed them to come out. They were employed as advisers, but the advice which seemed to come from them was but the repetition of the behests of the priests. When Nyhellenia died, we wished to choose another mother, and some of us wished to go to Texland to look for her; but the priests, who were all-powerful among their own people, would not permit it, and accused us before the people of being unholy. Menrva is daughter of Tinia. The word tin is not found outside Germanic. Tinia holds 3 thunderbolts in Etruscan pantheon, one of 9 thunderbolt gods, the most powerful - maybe his name actually relates to the word tin, as we know it in Germanic - that of white metal, which thunderbolts could appear to look like. Even this one doesn't seem all that far-fetched: tiōna 1, tiūna, ti-ō-n-a, ti-ū-n-a, afries., sw. V.: nhd. beanspruchen, beschädigen; ne. use (V.), damage (V.); The Men in Menrva could be min, from mein, shortened and transformed into Men. Just thinking that Etruscan words might be able to be connected. Uni, sounds like one to me, the 1st. Edited November 12, 2013 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Gorp Posted November 12, 2013 #4685 Share Posted November 12, 2013 In Olb language Minerva can be read as 'min erva'. My Heritage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 12, 2013 #4686 Share Posted November 12, 2013 In Olb language Minerva can be read as 'min erva'. My Heritage Yes, that's what I mean by the OLB etymology doesn't match either mentioned etymologies, men as mind or measure. I just added an edit on my above post pondering this some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO-ID-EA Posted November 13, 2013 #4687 Share Posted November 13, 2013 (edited) Yes, that's what I mean by the OLB etymology doesn't match either mentioned etymologies, men as mind or measure. I just added an edit on my above post pondering this some more. Erva means herbs in a fair few languages , the moeders were supposed to be proficient in using herbs.... may be relevant huh ... while looking up erva .. note came up adding relevant words to your search .........maconha...which is another word for cannabis,hemp....on following that lead , it says erva is also another name used for cannabis coincidence ....gosa makonta Edited November 13, 2013 by NO-ID-EA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO-ID-EA Posted November 13, 2013 #4688 Share Posted November 13, 2013 (edited) More from the history of Carausius.........talking about Constantius Chlorus "the greatest virtue which Constantius possessed was his piety , not a false criminal devotion to idols, but true piety , that which consists in the soul, legitimate worship of the one God, the creator of the universe, even down to his clothes , the humility of which shamed the arrogance and impiousness of Diocletian and Maximian, this makes us so sure that Constantius was the first christian emperor . ( really or wishful thinking ??) Even Emenius pagan as he was , styled him DIVINA VIRTOTUM MIRACULA ,and with his fearless valour , he was feared not only by his enemies , but by diocletian and Maximian themselves." next , the bit that could be construed not as christianity that they were embracing but , if the All-Father is WR-ALDA ?? "Constantine followed his father , upon the base established by him of the ALL-FATHER whom the Saxons knew before him, and worshiped in untutored simplicity they cast off the embrace of a debased polytheism" the author is claiming Constantius as christian , but why would it state that the Saxons had been worshipping the christian God at this date ??? they were supposed to have been some of the last peoples to be forced into Roman Christianity as far as i know ?? Edited November 13, 2013 by NO-ID-EA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 13, 2013 #4689 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Erva means herbs in a fair few languages , the moeders were supposed to be proficient in using herbs.... may be relevant huh ... while looking up erva .. note came up adding relevant words to your search .........maconha...which is another word for cannabis,hemp....on following that lead , it says erva is also another name used for cannabis coincidence ....gosa makonta Interesting but I doubt that Minerva was carrying herbs in her bosom. The context really seems to point to 'my heritage' she carried in her bosom. erve in Frisian is heritage. The English translation uses the word 'possessions'. A word better might be 'inheritance', which is more relative to the true word ERVA - she carries her inheritance (through heir), ie; legacy of her forebears (freedom, justice) - in her bosom. erva 40 und häufiger, erv-a, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Erbe (M.); ne. heir; ÜG.: lat. hērēs L 8; Vw.: s. mi-th-i-; Hw.: s. erf-nam-a, erf-nem-a; vgl. got. arbja, an. arfi, ae. ierfa, anfrk. ervio, ahd. erbo; Q.: R, B, E, H, W, L 8; E.: germ. *arbō-, *arbōn, *arba-, *arban, *arbijō-, *arbijōn, *arbija-, *arbijan, sw. M. (n), Erbe (M.); s. idg. *orbʰo-, *h₂orbʰo-, Adj., Sb., verwaist, Waise, Pokorny 781; W.: nfries. eerwa, M., Erbe (M.); W.: nnordfries. erwe, M., Erbe (M.); L.: Hh 21b, Rh 714b erve 50 und häufiger, erv-e, afries., st. N. (ja): nhd. Erbe (N.), Erbgut, Grundeigentum, Grund und Boden; ne. heritage, estate (N.); ÜG.: lat. hērēditās L 21, possessio http://www.koeblergerhard.de/afries/afries_e.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO-ID-EA Posted November 13, 2013 #4690 Share Posted November 13, 2013 VVR.ALDA => Vrotalt, Urotalt, Ourotalt Read and weep. De Diis Germanis, Elias Schedivs (1728), p.157 "Arabes alias, teste Herodot. in Clio, Solem dixerunt Vrotalt, id est, Lucis Deum, itemque Dusarem, vel Daisarem, id est, perlustrantem Deum." source Geographie der Griechen und Römer aus ihren Schriften dargestellt, Konrad Mannert (1831), p.24-25 "... nennen den Dionysus Urotalt (Ουροταλτ)... Urotal erklärt er für Erat-allah, Gott des Feuers... Ob der Gott Urotalt, welchen Herodot so wie die Allita blos dey den nördlichern Arabern hatte kennen lernen, einerley mit der Hauptgottheit der südlichern Länder ist, weiss ich nicht zu sagen. ... ... Sonne und Mond (welches immer noch Urotalt und die Alitta bezeichnen kann), ... Zuverlässig aber wurde Bacchus, welchen Herodot Urotalt nennt, in der Legend von Mecca auch unter dem Namen Dusares oder Dysares verehrt; ..." source Draft chapters of a treatise on the origin of religion and its corruption, Isaac Newton (c. 1690) "Bacchus was the proper god of the Arabians & therefore their common father. ffor Herodotus (lib 3 initio) tells us Arabes Dionysium quem Vrotalt & Vraniam quam Alilat appellant [id est Bacchum et Venerem] solos Deorum esse arbitrantur: ..." source Buch des Kabus oder Lehren des persischen Königs Kjekjawus für seinen Sohn Ghilan Schach, Kaika'us Ibn-Iskanda, translated by Heinrich F. von Diez (1811) p.211 "Zu Zeiten Hiobs aus Esaus Geschlecht nemlich haben die Araber, wie obgedacht, Gott in der Wahrheit erkannt, und wenn wir die Abfassung dieses Buchs ins Jahr der Welt 2300 oder, wie einige wollen, noch etwas weiter zurück näher an die Zeiten Jacobs setzen, der im Jahre der Welt 2255 starb: so müssen wir urtheilen, dass sie zwölf Jahrhunderte vor Herodot noch im Besitz der unverfälschten Offenbarung gewesen. Wir müssen ferner annehmen, dass sie vom rechten Wege noch nicht abgewichen waren im Jahre der Welt 2952, als die Königin von Saba nach Jerusalem kam, welches 548 Jahre vor Herodot geschehen. Allein zur Zeit des letztem waren die Araber schon Götzendiener geworden, denn dieser Geschichtschreiber, welcher seine Geschichte ums Jahr der Welt 3500 schrieb, folglich 1112 Jahre zuvor, ehe Muhammed zu lehren angefangen, meldet, dass die Araber den Bacchus und die Urania verehrten. Den erstem nennt er mit einem verdorbenen arabischen Worte Urotalt und die letztere heisst er Alitta und Alilat. Urotalt soll wahrscheinlich Utarid (...) seyn, welches sonst Mercurius bedeutet, der vom Stamme Asad verehrt ward ." source Maandelyksche berichten uit de andere waereld of de sprekende dooden (February 1769), p.122 "Zo is door den geleerden Calmet aangetoond, dat de Arabiers en Ismaëliten, eertyd Bacchus en Urama of Venus in dien tempel dienden; zo verhaalt ook Herodotus, dat ze geene anderen Godheden dan deeze hebben aangebede, de eerste van welke zy Urotalt, en de laatste Alilat noemden; hoe wel Strabo, een later schryver, verzekerd, dat ze, in vervolg van tyd Jupiter, de Zon, Maan en Demons aanbaden; doch hoe ze aan het verdichtsel zyn gekomen, dat Abraham dien tempel heeft gebouwd, weet mogelyk niemand te zeggen." source Bijbel der natuur - Twaalfde deel, Johann Jacob Scheuchzer, vertaling L. Meijer (1792), p.623 Register: "Uranus Urotalt, de Zon. III.1109. IX.657" source Algemeene histori van het begin der wereld af tot den tegenwoordigen tyd toe, Volume 2, translated from English by Kornelis Westerbaen (1741) p.423 "Een hedensdaegsch Schrijver (1) meent, dat d'Arabiërs en Ismaëliten eertijds Bacchus en Urania of Venus in dien tempel dienden: want Herodotus verhaelt, datze geene andere godheden, dan deeze hebben aengebeden, d'eerste van welke zij Urotalt, en de laetste Alilat noemen (2); hoewel andere laeter Schrijvers zeggen, datze ook Jupiter, de zon, maen, en de demons aenbaden (3). Hoe het hiermede gelegen zij, of niet, het is allerwaerschijnlijkst, dat d'altaer en het bosch, van Abraham te Berseba opgerecht (4), d'eerste gelegenheid tot deeze verziering heeft gegeeven, dat die tempel door hem gebouwd is." source Das orakelwesen im Alterthume, Franziska Hoffmann (1880) p.20 "Das Bakidische Orakel auf Creta. Wenn man den Zusammenhang zwischen dem Orient und Griechenland, zwischen dem Mysterien- und dem Orakelwesen festhalten will, so ist es nöthig die Verknüpfung zu kennen, in welcher der orientalische Bakis oder Bacchos zu dem griechischen Apollo stand. Im Anfange hatten die Griechen nur ausländische Götter, welche sie nationalisirten, später durch einheimische ersetzten und deren verschiedene Mythen mit einander verschmolzen. So auch gab es zwei Bacchosgötter. Der zweite Bacchos war Dionysos, Sohn der Semele; der erste war nach Herodot der arabische Gott Ourotalt, dessen Dienst von den Syriern und Phöniziern angenommen worden war, ehe er durch Melampus und Cadmos den Griechen bekannt wurde. Er ist der eigentlich mystische Bacchos, Mittelpunkt der Zagreusmythe, Mittelpunkt der Sabaziusfabel, die mit dem Dienst von Samothrake verknüpft war; von ihm stammen die Eleusinischen Mysterien mit der Jacchosmythe; von ihm stammen die bacchischen Orgien, wobei die Bacchantinnen bekanntlich ein Rehkalb zerrissen und das rohe Fleisch davon assen." source The Archaeology of the District - The Finds at the Great Zimbabwe Ruins, J.T.Bent (1892) p.189-191 "... the creative powers of mankind. A curious confirmation of this is found in the pages of Herodotus (Herod.Bk.III.par.8), who tells us:'The Arabians of all the gods only worshipped Dionysus, whom they called Ourotalt, and Urania;' that is to say, they worshipped the two deities which, in the mind of the father of history, represented in themselves all that was known of the mysteries of creation, pointing to the very earliest period of Arabian cult, prior ro the more refined religious development of the Sabaeo-Himyaritic dynasty, when Sun-worship, veneration for the great luminary which regenerated all animal and vegetable life, superseded the grosser forms of nature-worship, to be itself somewhat superseded or rather incorporated in a worship of all the heavenly luminaries, which developed as a knowledge of astronomy was aquired." source1 source2 Curieuse Aenmerckingen der bysonderste Oost en West-Indische Verwonderens-waerdige Dingen, IV Deel, Simon de Vries (1682) p.1023 "By d'Arabiers salfden de Bond-verwanten seven Stenen met haer eygen Bloed; roepende daer by den Urotalt en Alilat: Welcke eenige voor Dionysius en Urania houden" source Having just read your link ......draft of the origins of religion by isaac newton ........... ver anciently meant over and we could see wer of wr Alda. as being over the Alda............but interestingly later on he says , vr meant fire ( specifically the sacred fire ) and alda ? could it just be Alta® ....what they all worship is the sacred fire on the sacred fire altar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 15, 2013 #4691 Share Posted November 15, 2013 This was the spelling by Herod... That should have been Herodotus (c. 484 - 425 BCE). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 15, 2013 #4692 Share Posted November 15, 2013 VVR.ALDA => Vrotalt, Urotalt, Ourotalt More found. First, the original fragment by Herodotus and some translations. Inquiries III-8 (Thalia), written 440 BCE (George Rawlinson, 1860) Bacchus they call in their language Orotal, and Urania, Alilat. (George Campbell Macaulay, 1890) Now they call Dionysos Orotalt and Urania they call Alilat. (Shlomo Felberbaum, 2003) And they name Dionysus Orotalt and Urania Alilat. ~ wikipedia/Orotalt "According to the 5th century BCE Greek historian Herodotus, Orotalt was a god of Pre-Islamic Arabia whom he identified with Dionysus [...] Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions states that Orotalt is a phonetic transcription of the name of the sun god Ruda." wikipedia/Ruda (deity) "Ruda is a deity that was of paramount importance in the Arab pantheon of gods worshipped by the North Arabian tribes of pre-Islamic Arabia. [...] The oldest reference to Ruda is found in the annals of Esarhaddon who ruled over the Assyrian empire from 681 to 669 BC. The name is transliterated into English from the original Akkadian as Ru-ul-da-a-a-ú and he is mentioned among the gods of the Arabs." wikipedia/Ruldaiu "Ruldaiu was a god featured in Arab mythology according to the Annals of Sennacherib (eighth century BC). Arabic inscriptions mention a god called Ruda. Herodotus calls him Ortalt." ~ http://nabataea.net/kedar.html (Dan Gibson) Regarding their religion, Assyrian inscriptions tell us that Sennacherib captured of several Arabian deities in the Kedarite city of Dumah. The chief deity was Atarsamain, or the morning star of heaven. (the counterpart of Mesopotamian Ishtar). The tribal league led by the Kedarites was known as "the confederation of Atarsamain, and their cult was led by a series of queen-priestesses in Dumah. The rest of their pantheon of gods consisted of Dai, Nuhai (Nuhay), Ruldai (Ruda), Abirillu, and Atarquruma. Rock graffiti in the Thamudic language reveals that Ruda was known as the evening star, and Nuhay was the sun-god, and they were worshiped in addition to Atarsamain 'the morning star.' Herodotus, in the fifth century BC identified two deities worshiped among the Arabs, as a fertility god called Orotalt (perhaps Ruda, as identified by Macdonald in North Arabian in the First Millennium BC, 1360), and a sky goddess know as Allat. (Herodotus III,3.) Later Allat became referred to in the masculine form as Allah) ~ RuLDai => RLD => (?) uRaLDa (wRaLDa) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted November 15, 2013 #4693 Share Posted November 15, 2013 RuLDai => RLD => (?) uRaLDa (wRaLDa) All these etymological efforts are not needed. OLB differs between Wralda and Jirtha, between world and earth, which is the biblical connotation of Hemel en Aarde, Heavens and Earth. The meaning over-alda < <vr-alda < wr-alda has been fancied and is not sustained in the OLB. In the OLB the age of Wralda has not been a topic at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted November 16, 2013 #4694 Share Posted November 16, 2013 To be translated: Overledene: Jan Gerhardus Ottema Geslacht: Man Leeftijd: 74 Burgerlijke staat: other:weduwnaar Vader: Nicolaas Ottema Geslacht: Man Moeder: Mincke Dirks - Geslacht: Vrouw Relatie: Sara van Heukelom Relatiesoort: Partner Gebeurtenis: Overlijden Datum: woensdag 19 maart 1879 Gebeurtenisplaats: Leeuwarden Documenttype: BS Overlijden Erfgoedinstelling: Historisch Centrum Leeuwarden Plaats instelling: Leeuwarden Collectiegebied: Friesland Archief: 30-22 Registratienummer: 3068 Aktenummer: A 147 Registratiedatum: 20 maart 1879 Akteplaats: Leeuwarden Aktesoort: Overlijdensakte Opmerking: Geboren te Doetinchem Leeftijd: 74 jaar. Begraven op de oude Stadsbegraafplaats aan de Spanjaardslaan te Leeuwarden (Afd. I, 18-29). Jammer, dat de heer Ottema deze hernieuwde benoeming niet lang heeft kunnen waarnemen. Sinds 1832 lid van ons Genootschap, van af 1843 lid van het bestuur, eerst als Secretaris, daarna van af 1856 als medebestuurder, is hij ons den 19 Maart jl. ontvallen. Bood het langdurig lidmaatschap gelegenheid veel voor het Genootschap te doen, de heer Ottema is daarin niet te kort geschoten. Steeds was en bleef hij een zeer ijverig lid van het bestuur, die op de wekelijksche vergaderingen bijna nooit werd gemist , terwijl niet alleen de verschillende deelen van „de vrije Fries" maar ook afzonderlijk door het Genootschap uitgegeven werken (zooals voornamelijk de 5 boeken Chronyken van Worp Tyaerda van Rinsumageest) van zijne groote werkzaamheid de onwraakbare getuigen zijn. De herdenking aan hem wekke ons op het door hem ingeslagen pad verder te betreden.* Bron: een-en- vijftigste v e r s l a g der handelingen van het Fr i e s c h Genootschap van geschied-, oudheid- en taalkunde te Leeuwarden, over het jaar 1878 1879, uitgebracht in de vergadering van 18 September 1879. * Opmerkelijk is, dat in deze necrologie op geen enkele manier verwezen wordt naar de werkzaamheden van Ottema betreffende het Oera Linda Boek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted November 16, 2013 #4695 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Erva means herbs in a fair few languages , the moeders were supposed to be proficient in using herbs.... may be relevant huh ... while looking up erva .. note came up adding relevant words to your search .........maconha...which is another word for cannabis,hemp....on following that lead , it says erva is also another name used for cannabis coincidence ....gosa makonta A better possibility is maybe to relate makonta to Greek maxein - struggle i.c. warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 16, 2013 #4696 Share Posted November 16, 2013 All these etymological efforts are not needed. I suppose you mean that they are undesirable, as they undermine your pet theory. OLB differs between Wralda and Jirtha, between world and earth, which is the biblical connotation of Hemel en Aarde, Heavens and Earth. Are you serious? Wralda was seen as the eternal and perfect beginning and end of all. Earth was 'wrought' by time, that had 'commenced' after the beginning, that was made by Wralda. Sandbach page 13: "Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth." The meaning over-alda < <vr-alda < wr-alda has been fancied and is not sustained in the OLB. What on earth do you mean? In the OLB the age of Wralda has not been a topic at all. Sandbach, p.137: "Wr-alda is the ancient of ancients, for he created all things. Wr-alda is all in all, for he is eternal and everlasting. Wr-alda is omnipresent but invisible, and therefore is called a spirit. All that we can see of him are the created beings who come to life through him and go again, because from Wr-alda all things proceed and return to him. Wr-alda is the beginning and the end. Wr-alda is the only almighty being, because from him all other strength comes, and returns to him. Therefore he alone is the creator, and nothing exists without him. Wr-alda established eternal principles, upon which the laws of creation were founded, and no good laws could stand on any other foundation. But although everything is derived from Wr-alda, the wickedness of men does not come from him. Wickedness comes from heaviness, carelessness, and stupidity..." (etc.) What is the age of something that is eternal? Get real. If Urotalt, Orotalt, Ruldai etc. (containing UR & ALD, resp. RLD) was a primal god of some early Arabs (8th c. BCE), this can be most relevant. Vowels are more interchangeable in etymology then consonants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted November 16, 2013 #4697 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) I suppose you mean that they are undesirable, as they undermine your pet theory. Exactly, Full reference to the Protestant Bible (Statenbijbel), projected onto pre-Christian times. This pet theory of mine explains more of the OLB than any pet etymology of yours. Edited November 16, 2013 by Knul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ott Posted November 16, 2013 #4698 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Full reference to the Protestant Bible (Statenbijbel), projected onto pre-Christian times. Name one example that cannot be the other way around: That what is in the Bible is reference to tradition as described in OLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted November 17, 2013 #4699 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Name one example that cannot be the other way around: That what is in the Bible is reference to tradition as described in OLB. To start with the year, when Atland has been sunken, derived from the Frisian and Groningen Almanak, in turn derived from the Protestant Bible (Statenbijbel) and ending with a line from the Our Lord prayer and in between the reference to cogito ergo sum by Descartes (student at Franeker Academy) and the Greek panta rhei philosophy by Heraclitus. We have discussed all this before. Ottema knew about the Almanak, but tried to escape that reference (see below), similary the identity of Jessos and similarly the runskript, because that would proof the 19th century hoax. If the Bible would reference the OLB tradition, why can't you find Frya, Finda and Lyda in the Bible ? Ottema 23.5.1874 in hhis letter to L.F. over de Linden: Ik heb een belangrijke ontdekking gedaan. Die tijdrekening of jaartelling nei Atland sunken is, heeft niet alleen bestaan, maar is altijd blijven bestaan en bestaat nog. Zij komt nog (althans tot voor weinige jaren) voor in de Almanakken. Neem b.v. een almanak van 1840, daar zult gij op de 1e bladzijde o.a. lezen het 5798 jaar der Schepping, 5601 jaar der Joden, 4033 jaar na de Zondvloed. Wat beteekent dat laatste ? Wel: 4033-1840 - 2193 v.Chr. Dat is het jaar waarin Atland sunken is. Men heeft nooit dat woord zond-vloed kunnen verklaren. Het is eenvoudig verbasterd uit sinkflod, zinkvloed. Het heeft geen betrekking op den Noachitischen vloed, want dien kunnen de tijdrekenaars niet later stellen als 2329 voor Chr. 't welk geven zoude 2329 plus 1840 is 4169 n. d. z.* Zoo hebben wij thans 1874 is 4067 na den zinkvloed, (niet 4203 na Noachs vloed). Edited November 17, 2013 by Knul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted November 17, 2013 #4700 Share Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Nice example of the inverted proof by Ottema (and Gestur) to show that our Arabian numerals have been derived from the OLB. Again a big mistake by Ottema. Brief van J.G. Ottema aan L.F. over de Linden d.d. 4 maart 1875 Trefwoorden: schrift, echtheid. WelEd. Heer ! In langen tijd heb ik geene bijzondere aanleiding gehad om aan u te schrijven, doch nu biedt zich die aan en maak ik er gebruik van. Hiernevens zend ik u een ruw geteekend schetsje (ik kan het niet beter), waarin gij dadelijk de sijfers in het Juul zult herkennen, alleen daarin verschillende, dat de hoekige vormen wat zijn afgerond. Waar komen die weg ? vraagt ge. Uit Spanje en wel uit de beroemde Alhambra; onder het lof en krulwerk waarmede dat prachtstuk van Moorsche Bouwkunst versierd is, komen als architectonische ornamenten ook de nevengaande figuren voor. Zij zijn beschreven en afgebeeld (in het fraaie werk getiteld The Arabian antiquities of Spain, by James Cavarian Murphy, London 1813 gr. folio op plaat LXXXVII. Miscellaneous parts and ornaments in the Alhambra. De beschrijving luidt zoo: These are copied from various parts of this noble palace and will convey to the eye a better idea of the minute and diversified elegance which characterizes its almost innumerable ornaments. The line of Arabian ciphers is particularly interesting as exhibiting the primitive forms of those figures, for which we are indebted to the Spanish Arabs. Dit laatste is meer schijn dan waarheid: wij zijn onze cijfers net verschuldigd aan de Arabieren, om de eenvoudige reden, dat deze nooit zulke figuren als cijfers gebruikt hebben en wij die dus ook niet van hen hebben kunnen overnemen. De Arabische cijfers hebben deze gedaante [getallenreeks hier niet weergegeven]. Die Arabische cijfers hebben niets gemeen met de onze. De figuren van de Alhambra staan daar ook niet als getalmerken, maar alleen als architectonische ornamenten. En vanwaar hebben de Spaansche Arabieren die vormen ontleend ? Van het Fryas schrift in het juul geteekend, zoo als het Oera Linda Boek dat bewaard heeft. Sterker bewijs voor de oorspronkelijkheid echtheid en oudheid van het Fryas schrift en daarmede van het Boek zelf kan er niet gewenscht worden. Deze belangrijke bijzonderheid heb ik te danken aan den Heer Dr. Campbell, Directeur der Koninklijke Bibliotheek te 's Gravenhage. Teeken gij nu de gebrekkige schets. die ik hier insluit eens netjes over en laat het zien aan elk die het waard is. Wees daarbij vriendelijk gegroet, en breng mijne groete aan uwe familie. Vaarwel. Edited November 17, 2013 by Knul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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