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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


Abramelin

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I asked Frya for support: we have to play against those "Saxmannar" this evening.

I 'sacrified' a typical Magyar thing: palinka (and I hope that drinking it is as of much value as burning that godly drink).

:P

You see, Frya's cart is being pulled by a couple of Dutch lions, and she's holding a football in her hands:

Fryascart.jpg

This should work.

.

It doesn't: Germany scored a goal.

Man, I am sick.

Edited by Abramelin
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It doesn't: Germany scored a goal.

Man, I am sick.

WE lost.against the Gerries.

We are out of the tournament.

Bye.

Goddamn

++

EDIT:

You know what? Some German friends called me on the phone just now, and asked me 'how i felt'...

Edited by Abramelin
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Some German friends called me on the phone just now, and asked me 'how i felt'...

When I heard that the orange suckers were 2 points behind, I actually got interested and watched the rest of the game, to see them humiliate themselves, again. One of those rare moments I can enjoy a game of foot-ball. The measure in which this boys-game and fest of nationalism is worshipped, is one of the most severe symptoms of our utterly sick culture.

Going offline for at least a week now, to celebrate midsummer.

Cheerio.

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Fest of nationalism, lol.

Maybe you forgot your Westfrisian 'nationalism' that oozes from every word you post here??

Anyway, have a good time.

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I meant

How much do WE know of what happened here (in NW Europe) 1600 years ago?

That is a rhethorical question.

We hardly know anything.

To be more precise:

Read the works from Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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To give an idea what has been found and can be found in the North Sea, here a post of mine from the Doggerland thread (and notice how the writer of the article mentions "Aldland"...) :

The low population is of course based on a low number of finds (tools, bones, settlements, and so on), but it is said that because Doggerland disappeared under water, much more may have been preserved because of everything being covered by sediment.

Its is also said that most of the areas you mentioned were the hunting grounds of the people living on Doggerland: they only went to these places to hunt during the summer months, when conditions were much more favorable. For the rest of the year these areas would be covered in ice and snow, while Doggerland would have been relatively free of all that, and so they would have retreated to that area, and lived there for the rest of the year. I think it would be really interesting to know what the influence of the Gulf Stream was on the climate in Doggerland, a large stretch of low lying lands.

Neverthelesss, you have a point here.

===

EDIT :

About that Gulf Stream and the population density of Doggerland, I remembered I had posted earlier in this thread about it, but instead of looking it up again for an hour or two (lol), I will re-post it again:

On more scientific grounds based entirely on the latest and proven research, some facts. The Scotsman had an article addressing this. It should be noted this was not opinion or speculation. (As some articles are.) It was based entirely on scientific findings of archeological research. Moreover, it was not what they expected to find. "The first people in Scotland after the Ice Age were Scandinavian." We know this fact because they were of the identical culture as found in Denmark, the lower Rhineland and were in Norway by 10,000 BC. They also arrived in Scotland before 12,000 BC.

They, the above people, had arrived from Doggerland at the end of the Ice Age. A vast and populated plain of what is now the shallow North Sea. It became submerged at the end of the Ice Age when the glaciers melted and the sea level rose. Graham Clark, the excavator of the Mesolithic site at Star Carr in Yorkshire, referring to the North Sea: "the submerged land had been the heartland of an early Mesolithic culture."

"Herds of reindeer and horses migrated across its vast plains." "Huge forests covered much of the countryside and men and women made their homes by rivers and lakes." It was, contrary to an earlier theory washed by the warm Gulf Stream. What are now most of Britain as well as most of Ireland, was, it is true, covered by glaciers. At the same time, the sea level was about 200 meters lower than today. As said the Gulf Stream hugged the coast of Doggerland. Because of this, the climate of northern and especially northwestern Europe was completely different than presumed. A short section will be devoted to The History of the Gulf Stream later, to answer any questions. Even a part of what is now western Denmark remained ice-free. Another area on the edge containing the same culture was a part of what in now Belgium. That area was inhabited throughout the last glacial maxim. Those areas mentioned would have been the (then) hills on the edge of this area, with the vast majority living on the plane below. It was cool but was no Antarctica. Because of the before mentioned Gulf Stream. When the glaciers melted and the sea level rose the people moved upland into Denmark, the Low Countries and Britain. This ignored reality destroys made-up academic theories, now proven wrong.

We now know this, from recent underwater surveys, showing remains of vast forests that this was no land of frozen tundra. At least, in the last glacial maxim. In addition, thousands of years before that. The model assuming it was an ice desert has been proven wrong. This is important; the area was far larger than the entire island of Britain today. This, Doggerland or Aldland (old land) of legend, was also the home of the people later called Germani; they are one and the same as the Ice Age survivors.

This is an exact quote, pay attention, please. This is in reference to Doggerland in the last glacial maxim. That is the last Ice Age. "This landscape is unique in that it was extensively populated by humans but was rapidly inundated during the Mesolithic as a consequence of rising sea levels as a result of rapid climate change." Another said, "the region now submerged below the North Sea had a coastline of lagoons, marshes, mudflats, and beaches. It was probably the richest hunting, fowling and fishing ground in all of Europe." We have another quote concerning this area. "Thousands of specimens, hundreds of tons of bones, have been recovered from the bottom of the North Sea, termed "Doggerland," and continue to be recovered."

This is based on a review by The International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. For those still insisting on disproven models, this can not be gotten around. That book is "Nautical Archaeology of Submarine Prehistoric Archaeology of the North Sea." This is not theory. It is proven fact. It is the result of 28 contributors from the United Kingdom, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, and Norway. "Particularly startling is Fischer's update on roughly 2300 submerged prehistoric sites now recorded on the Danish sea-floor." He suggested this might represent just a small percentage of the total number. (In that area alone.) There are other areas off the coast of England and Scotland also. These sites show that Paleolithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic people created settlements on the coastlines. Moreover, in all probability they were settled in the hinterlands of the central North Sea as well. (Shifting sand cause problems in surveying this area. But artifacts have been found there as well.) People lived there throughout the Ice Age. They did not arrive later. From Iberia, or elsewhere. This is the area known as Doggerland. Insisting as some do that the area was not suitable for habitation is disproven. In light of proven science, such statements show ignorance. Of a subject, they pretend to know about.

http://mickhartley.t...celtic_mor.html

Edited by Abramelin
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Like I have said before, despite Overwijn (the 2nd or 3d translator of the OLB) going nuts in his book (he quoted/used Blavatsky's books and also Velikovsky's), Overwijn said that that date, 2194 BC, was nothing but a mythical date, and that it should have been 6250 BC instead, when Doggerland got flooded.

Like the Jews used a mythical date for the Creation as the starting point of their calendar.

Alewyn has posted here and published in his book this thread started with about droughts and wars and (Middle Eastern) empires tumbling, and all that happening around 2200 BC.

But he could never prove all these volcanoes erupting, lands/mountains rising and lands/mountains going down, years long fires destroying the huge forests in Germany (Twiskland) that protected the Fryans from the Finda, massive floods (in Europe), rivers diverting, new islands arising, and so on and so on.

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Interesting post #481 Abe, he says Aldland, I see. But also that many sites are on the sea floor, I recently watched a DVD about Star Carr and other places, these have very developed houses and structures, it really made me think about these ancient people living there, very early it seems. Interesting that these people are probably early Fryans but nothing really to do with the OLB I guess.

Star Carr would have been on the southern end of Doggerland imo, the people were probably the same as those who had lived on Doggerland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr

Evidence of Structures

Post holes, a sunken area and concentrations of flints, burning and other artefacts indicate the presence of a structure approximately 3.5 metres (11 ft) wide. The posts were almost certainly made of wood and roughly 20 centimetres (7.9 in) in diameter there may have been as many as 18 of them and the holes indicated that several may have been replaced over the course of the structure's use. It is impossible to know the form or materials from which the walls and/or roof would have been made. They may have used hides, thatch, turf or bark on a conical (teepee-like) or rounded (wigwam-like) frame. There is no reason to suppose that the same materials and form would have been used for the structure's entire life-span. There was evidence that the floor was covered with a layer of moss, reeds and other soft plant materials 20 centimetres (7.9 in)–30 centimetres (12 in) deep. Radiocarbon dates indicated a use-life of between 200 and 500 years. The structure has been compared to the Mesolithic structure found at Howick, Northumberland and British Iron Age roundhouses.

A large wooden platform has been discovered nearby on the shore of the former lake – the earliest known example of carpentry in Europe, though its purpose is as yet unknown. Timbers of Aspen and Willow were split along the grain using wedges (probably made of wood and antler) these were then laid in the boggy areas at the lake shore, presumably to provide firm footing. The extent of the wooden platform is not known but it may be a significantly larger and more complex undertaking than the house-like structure.

Chronology

Current radiocarbon dates from the site itself indicate occupation from around 8770 BC until about 8460 BC, with a possible period of abandonment between 8680 BC and 8580 BC.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Finda's people lived on the other side of Twiskland. The heart of Findasland was around the area of India where the Ganges began - the Finda's people had once lived in Aldland.

The Finns as called by the Fryans are the people who are not Magyar, the Magyar are Magyar, the Finns are with them but different.

The Magy priests do not appear to come from the heart of Findasland, 'they came from a different country' when they did injury to the ones who believed they were pure Findas children (in India).

Alewyn has the Magyar pegged as Altai types, he's probably correct, they also became Medians, and were the Magi of the Persian empire, who were always a threat to the Persians themselves, Chaldeans were old Medeans, who were known as Magi.

It's hard to know who he thinks might be the original Findas people who became known to the Fryans as Finns.

So, should we assume that Aldland was in the heart of Finda's Land because the Finns, as named by the Fryans were Finda's people, when Aldland could have been on the other side of Twiskland, because Finda's people were also there, Findas people were in Egypt too.

How do we really know Aldland is in the heart of Findasland (India).

I know it's been gone over but it's just not working for me, the explanation that is.

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Interesting post #481 Abe, he says Aldland, I see. But also that many sites are on the sea floor, I recently watched a DVD about Star Carr and other places, these have very developed houses and structures, it really made me think about these ancient people living there, very early it seems. Interesting that these people are probably early Fryans but nothing really to do with the OLB I guess.

Star Carr would have been on the southern end of Doggerland imo, the people were probably the same as those who had lived on Doggerland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr

Evidence of Structures

Post holes, a sunken area and concentrations of flints, burning and other artefacts indicate the presence of a structure approximately 3.5 metres (11 ft) wide. The posts were almost certainly made of wood and roughly 20 centimetres (7.9 in) in diameter there may have been as many as 18 of them and the holes indicated that several may have been replaced over the course of the structure's use. It is impossible to know the form or materials from which the walls and/or roof would have been made. They may have used hides, thatch, turf or bark on a conical (teepee-like) or rounded (wigwam-like) frame. There is no reason to suppose that the same materials and form would have been used for the structure's entire life-span. There was evidence that the floor was covered with a layer of moss, reeds and other soft plant materials 20 centimetres (7.9 in)–30 centimetres (12 in) deep. Radiocarbon dates indicated a use-life of between 200 and 500 years. The structure has been compared to the Mesolithic structure found at Howick, Northumberland and British Iron Age roundhouses.

A large wooden platform has been discovered nearby on the shore of the former lake – the earliest known example of carpentry in Europe, though its purpose is as yet unknown. Timbers of Aspen and Willow were split along the grain using wedges (probably made of wood and antler) these were then laid in the boggy areas at the lake shore, presumably to provide firm footing. The extent of the wooden platform is not known but it may be a significantly larger and more complex undertaking than the house-like structure.

Chronology

Current radiocarbon dates from the site itself indicate occupation from around 8770 BC until about 8460 BC, with a possible period of abandonment between 8680 BC and 8580 BC.

How would Star Carr have been on the southern end of Doggerland when it's located on the east central coast of Great Britain almost due west of the Dogger Bank?

cormac

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How would Star Carr have been on the southern end of Doggerland when it's located on the east central coast of Great Britain almost due west of the Dogger Bank?

cormac

Yes, I see, I was seeing it slightly different, the western end of Doggerland, I was thinking it was south but you are correct.

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Yes, I see, I was seeing it slightly different, the western end of Doggerland, I was thinking it was south but you are correct.

No problem, I knew I was getting tired but was hoping my eyes weren't getting that crossed. :lol:

cormac

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No problem, I knew I was getting tired but was hoping my eyes weren't getting that crossed. :lol:

cormac

My eyes are often in a confused state in this thread...

:wacko:

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Who thinks the people the Fryans terms Finns are actually the Finns, of Finland? Swedish finnar. Where the Fryans would be the ancestors of the Swedish (IE) speaking population of Finland mentioned below.

The terms Finns and Finnish people (Finnish: suomalaiset, Swedish: finnar (ethnic Finns), finländare (citizens of Finland)) are used in English to mean "a native or inhabitant of Finland". They are also used to refer to the ethnic group historically associated with Finland or Fennoscandia, and they are only used in that sense here.[15][16]

As with most ethnic groups, the definition of Finns may vary. In every definition, the term includes the Finnish-speaking population of Finland. The group can also be seen to include the Finnish-speaking population of Sweden and the traditionally Swedish-speaking population of Finland, although the inclusion of the latter into the Finnish ethnicity is a subject of discussion. Smaller populations that may or may not be seen to fall under the term Finns include the Kvens in Norway, the Tornedalians of Sweden and the Ingrian Finns of Russia. Finns can be divided according to dialect into subgroups sometimes called heimo (lit. tribe), but such divisions have become less important with internal migration.

Linguistically, Finnish, spoken by most Finns, is part of the Uralic language family and is most closely related to other Finnic languages such as Karelian and Estonian, while Swedish, spoken by Swedish-speaking Finns, is unrelated to the Finnish language and a member of the Indo-European language family. Finnish has loanwords from Swedish, other Germanic and broader Indo-European languages in different chronological layers while Swedish has few loan words from the Finnic languages. Some scholars have argued that, genetically, Finns "have been shown to differ strikingly from other European populations".[17] However, they have a close genetic affinity to other Europeans; their idiosyncratic findings being attributable to low population density in prehistory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

The Finns, as Suomi, are most likely (imo) part of the Sami. I have read alot on this and the 2 are quite indistinguishable in ancient writings and the name can be connected. These words also seem to reference FINDA (and variations) in the names.

Historical references to Northern Europe are scarce, and the names given to its peoples and geographic regions are obscure. Therefore, the etymologies of the names remain equally sketchy. Such names as Fenni, Phinnoi, Finnum, and Skrithfinni / Scridefinnum appear in a few written texts starting from about two millennia ago in association with peoples located in a northern part of Europe, but the real meaning of these terms is debatable. The earliest mentions of this kind are usually interpreted to have meant Fennoscandian hunter-gatherers whose closest successors in modern terms would be the Sami people.[28] It has been suggested that this non-Uralic ethnonym is of Germanic language origin and related to such words as finthan (Old High German) 'find', 'notice'; fanthian (Old High German) 'check', 'try'; and fendo (Old High German) and vende (Old Middle German) 'pedestrian', 'wanderer'.[29] Another etymological interpretation associates this ethnonym with fen in a more toponymical approach. Yet another theory postulates that the words finn and kven are cognates. The Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries), some of the oldest written sources probably originating from the closest proximity, use words like finnr and finnas inconsistently. However, most of the time they seem to mean northern dwellers with a mobile life style.

An etymological link between the Sami and the Finns exists in modern Uralic languages as well. It has been proposed that e.g. the toponyms Sapmi (Sami for Lapland), Suomi (Finnish for Finland), and Häme (Finnish for Tavastia) are of the same origin,[29] the source of which might be related to the proto-Baltic word *žeme / Slavic земля (zemlja) meaning 'land'.[29] It has been proposed that these designations started to mean specifically people in Southwestern Finland (Finland Proper, Varsinais-Suomi) and later the whole area of modern Finland. But it is not known how, why, and when this occurred.

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Interesting post #481 Abe, he says Aldland, I see. But also that many sites are on the sea floor, I recently watched a DVD about Star Carr and other places, these have very developed houses and structures, it really made me think about these ancient people living there, very early it seems. Interesting that these people are probably early Fryans but nothing really to do with the OLB I guess.

Star Carr would have been on the southern end of Doggerland imo, the people were probably the same as those who had lived on Doggerland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr

There were 2 reasons I reposted it:

-1- As an example how people already somewhat accept that Aldland = Doggerland. It simply cannot be;

-2- That much can be found and have been found in and around the North Sea dating from many thousands of years before 2194 BC.

Even though the tsunami of 6150 BC destroyed Doggerland and later tsunamis (by the same Storegga Slides) again nibbled at the North Sea coasts, still much can be found, and that's contrary to what can be found concerning any remnants of some ancient OLB civilization that got destroyed by the fictive catastrophic event of 2194 BC.

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Finda's people lived on the other side of Twiskland. The heart of Findasland was around the area of India where the Ganges began - the Finda's people had once lived in Aldland.

The Finns as called by the Fryans are the people who are not Magyar, the Magyar are Magyar, the Finns are with them but different.

The Magy priests do not appear to come from the heart of Findasland, 'they came from a different country' when they did injury to the ones who believed they were pure Findas children (in India).

Alewyn has the Magyar pegged as Altai types, he's probably correct, they also became Medians, and were the Magi of the Persian empire, who were always a threat to the Persians themselves, Chaldeans were old Medeans, who were known as Magi.

It's hard to know who he thinks might be the original Findas people who became known to the Fryans as Finns.

So, should we assume that Aldland was in the heart of Finda's Land because the Finns, as named by the Fryans were Finda's people, when Aldland could have been on the other side of Twiskland, because Finda's people were also there, Findas people were in Egypt too.

How do we really know Aldland is in the heart of Findasland (India).

I know it's been gone over but it's just not working for me, the explanation that is.

It's hard to find out who exactly are the Magyar and the Magy and how they appear to have been mixed up to make one people in the OLB..

The original Magyar were a shamanic and nomadic people. They didn't build 'churches', and they didn't have golden statues.

==

"How do we really know Aldland is in the heart of Findasland (India)."

No, Aldland should have been the heart of Finda's land, and was the Pamir plateau, that, according to legends and some Bible scholars, got flooded around 2345 BC when the Tarim Basin - according to what people thought in the 19th century was a former inland sea, but never actually was - tilted and emptied itself as a bath tub over the Pamir. And it's near enough to Alewyn's Altai area. Btw, the Pamir was once considered to be a most possible location of Eden or the Paradise (and also often referred to as the Old Land).

And you will remember this map which is from a Bible site:

tarim.gif

Edited by Abramelin
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And the Theosophians concocted a map which also shows an inland sea north of the Himalaya, but more covering the present Gobi desert:

map_4.jpg

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The first map is from this site:

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/deluge.html

OK, so inland sea in that area where apparently this wouldn't be unusual with alot of flooding. Its close to China and thinking harder, yellow man is generally Chinese, Indians (India) are often sooty brown or black - Chinese also have the ancient word Magi, the symbol is similar to a Christian Cross...2200BC is given as the Great Flood in China timeframe - so maybe 2345BC is just a guess and the true Flood there did occur around 2200BC. This timeframe also gives massive drought and heat so melting of the glaciers in the Himalaya's could easily have caused flooding. (OK, so the 2200BC date is sketchy in Europe for volcanoes but one thing at a time)

also:

It was a large area, about 600 miles by 250 miles, quite large enough to support the population that would grow from Adam and Eve in a period of about 1,650 years. The floor of the basin was raised in the centre, sloping to the sides, and was ringed by high hills which provided a natural barrier to the world outside. One of the great rivers of Eden watered it. Today, the Takla Makan suffers from progressive dessication. It is the only place known on earth where no form of life exists in a desert. If this is the site of the Adamic world then, truly, the land as well as the people was destroyed. Many Chinese legends still current in Chinese Turkestan, speak of the many cities buried there as a divine judgement on the inhabitants for their sins.

David Davidson in Early Egypt, Babylonia and Central Asia, states that the same earth movement that produced the collapse of the earth's crust in Turkestan, converting the whole basin into an inland sea of fresh water, produced a slow settling of the land surface from East Turkestan towards the Yellow Sea. In Chinese tradition, there was a golden age in China between 2,357 B.C. and 2,205 B.C. during which period the Emperor Yao reigned. During his reign he instructed his minister, Yu, to cope with the floods which were devastating the country.

-------------------------

What sort of statement is this?

The original Magyar were a shamanic and nomadic people. They didn't build 'churches', and they didn't have golden statues.

What original Magyar would this be?

------------------------

1. Do you think the Finns and Magyar priests are different people?

2. (If so) Do you think they came from different areas that both got flooded and met up in the back of Twiskland becoming a merged people as they entered Fryan land?

That's how it seems to me.

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In Chinese sources

200px-%E5%B7%AB-bronze.svg.png

magnify-clip.pngChinese Bronzeware script for wu 巫 "shaman".

200px-Cross-Potent-Heraldry.svg.png

magnify-clip.pngCross potent.

Victor H. Mair provides archaeological and linguistic evidence suggesting that Chinese (巫 "shaman; witch, wizard; magician", Old Chinese *myag) was a loanword from Old Persian *maguš "magician; magi".[6] He describes: The recent discovery at an early Chou site of two figurines with unmistakably Caucasoid or Europoid feature is startling prima facie evidence of East-West interaction during the first half of the first millennium Before the Current Era. It is especially interesting that one of the figurines bears on the top of his head the clearly incised graph which identifies him as a wu (< *myag).[6]

These figurines, which are dated circa 8th century BC, were discovered during a 1980 excavation of a Zhou Dynasty palace in Fufeng County (Shaanxi Province).

Mair connects the ancient Bronzeware script for wu 巫 "shaman" (a cross with potents) with a Western heraldic symbol of magicians, the cross potent , which "can hardly be attributable to sheer coincidence or chance independent origination."

Compared with the linguistic reconstructions of many Indo-European languages, the current reconstruction of Old (or "Archaic") Chinese is more provisional. This velar final -g in Mair's *myag (巫) is evident in several Old Chinese reconstructions (Dong Tonghe's *mywag, Zhou Fagao's *mjwaγ, and Li Fanggui's *mjag), but not all (Bernhard Karlgren's *mywo and Axel Schuessler's *ma).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

Alewyn touches on the subject that it seems there is 2 kind of Magi, as it hints below...

In Greek sources

The perhaps oldest surviving reference to the magi – from Greek μάγος (mágos, plural: magoi) – is from 6th century BC Heraclitus (apud Clemens Protrepticus 12), who curses the magi for their "impious" rites and rituals. A description of the rituals that Heraclitus refers to has not survived, and there is nothing to suggest that Heraclitus was referring to foreigners.

Better preserved are the descriptions of the mid-5th century BC Herodotus, who in his portrayal of the Iranian expatriates living in Asia minor uses the term "magi" in two different senses. In the first sense (Histories 1.101), Herodotus speaks of the magi as one of the tribes/peoples (ethnous) of the Medes. In another sense (1.132), Herodotus uses the term "magi" to generically refer to a "sacerdotal caste", but "whose ethnic origin is never again so much as mentioned."[1] According to Robert Charles Zaehner, in other accounts, "we hear of Magi not only in Persia, Parthia, Bactria, Chorasmia, Aria, Media, and among the Sakas, but also in non-Iranian lands like Samaria, Ethiopia, and Egypt. Their influence was also widespread throughout Asia Minor. It is, therefore, quite likely that the sacerdotal caste of the Magi was distinct from the Median tribe of the same name."[1]

Other Greek sources from before the Hellenistic period include the gentleman-soldier Xenophon, who had first-hand experience at the Persian Achaemenid court. In his early 4th century BC Cyropaedia, the Athenian depicts the magians as authorities for all religious matters (8.3.11), and imagines the magians to be responsible for the education of the emperor-to-be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

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I am not going to quote from your post, lol, or else I get miscroscopic letters too.

With the original Magyar I mean those we all know of and invaded Europe a 1000 years ago. The present Magyar are a European people who adopted the language from these Asian tribes.

The creators of the OLB mixed up two peoples: the Asian Magyar and the Middle Eastern Magi, and thus suddenly the shamanic and nomadic Magyar become a people with 'churches' and 'priests and a love for golden statues.

You should know by now how I view the OLB: as a concoction.

+++

EDIT:

I just see your latest post:

It is known that the ancient Chinese and Persians were in contact via the Silk Road.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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N haplogroup could possibly show the key that from China spread a people into Finland circa 2200BC, where they are now N1c1. The Sami and Finns that look rather Asiatic look Chinese more than anything imo.

Haplogroup N1c1 (N-M178)

See also: List of haplogroups of historical and famous figures#N (Y-DNA)

The subclade N-M178 is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. (It was previously known as N3a.) N-M178* has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians, Lithuanians & 35% among Estonians.[21][17]

Miroslava Derenko and her colleagues noted that there are two subclusters within this haplogroup, both present in Siberia and Northern Europe, with different histories. The one that they labelled N3a1 first expanded in south Siberia (approximately 10,000 years ago on their calculated by the Zhivotovsky method) and spread into Northern Europe where its age they calculated as around 8,000 years ago. Meanwhile, the younger subcluster, which they labelled N3a2, originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region) approximately 4,000 years ago

PRIOR to that, this is the list of haplogroups that lead to the above N1c1. I could see Lake Baikal as being an area they left as well.

Y-chromosomes that display the M231 and LLY22g mutations that define Haplogroup N and Haplogroup N1 but do not display any of the downstream mutations that define the subclades N1a (M128), N1b (P43), and N1c (TAT) are said to belong to Haplogroup N1*.

Haplogroup N1* reaches a frequency of up to 30% (13/43) among the Yizu of Butuo County, Sichuan Province in southwestern China.[10][11][12] Haplogroup N1* also has been found in samples of Han Chinese, but with widely varying frequency: 15.0% (6/40) Guangdong Han[10][11], 6.8% (3/44) Shaanxi Han[10][11], 3.6% (3/84) Taiwanese Han[10], 3.0% (5/166) Han[13]. Other populations in which representatives of haplogroup N1* have been found include Hani (4/34 = 11.8%)[13], Sibe (4/41 = 9.8%)[13], Tujia (2/49 = 4.1%)[10], Manchu (2/52 = 3.8%[10] - 2/35 = 5.7%[13]), Uyghur (2/70 = 2.9%[13] - 2/67 = 3.0%)[10], Tibetan (3/105 = 2.9%[10] - 3/35 = 8.6%[13]), Koreans (0/106 = 0.0% - 2/25 = 8%[4][13][14]), Vietnamese (2/70 = 2.9%)[10], Japanese (0/70 Tokushima - 2/26 = 7.7% Aomori),[10] Manchurian Evenk (0/26 = 0.0%[13] - 1/41 = 2.4%[10]), Altaians (0/50 Northern to 5/96 = 5.2% Southern, or 0/43 Beshpeltir to 5/46 = 10.9% Kulada)[10][15], Shorians (2/23 = 8.7%),[4] Khakas (5/181 = 2.8%),[4] Tuvinians (5/311 = 1.6%),[4] southern Borneo (1/40 = 2.5%),[4] Forest Nenets (1/89 = 1.1%),[4] Fiji (1/107 = 0.9%),[4] Yakuts (0/215 - 1/121 = 0.8%),[4] and Turks (1/523 = 0.2%).[4] In Turkey, the total of subclades of haplogroup N amounts to 4% of the male population. One individual who belongs either to N1*-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat) or to N*-M231(xN1-LLY22g) has been found in a sample of 77 males from Kathmandu, Nepal (1/77 = 1.3% N-M231(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat)).[16]

Haplogroup N1a (N-M128)

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker M128. It is found with low frequency among Manchu, Sibe, Manchurian Evenks, Koreans, northern Han Chinese, Buyei, and some Turkic peoples of Central Asia.

Haplogroup N1b (N-P43)

Haplogroup N1b is defined by the presence of the marker P43. It is a significantly younger subclade, perhaps only 6,000 to 8,000 years old, with a probable origin in Siberia.[17] It is found frequently among Northern Samoyedic peoples; also found at low to moderate frequency among some other Uralic peoples, Turkic peoples, Mongolic peoples, Tungusic peoples, and Siberian Yupiks.

Haplogroup N1b forms two distinctive subclusters of STR haplotypes, Asian and European, the latter now mostly distributed in Uralic-speakers and related populations.[4]

Haplogroup N1c (N-M46)

The mutations that define the subclade N-M46 (old name N3) are M46/Tat and P105. This is the most frequent subclade of N. It arose probably in the region of present day China, and subsequently experienced serial bottlenecks in Siberia and secondary expansions in eastern Europe.[4] Haplogroup N-M46 is approximately 14,000 years old.

In Siberia, haplogroup N-M46 reaches a maximum frequency of approximately 90% among the Yakuts, a Turkic people who live mainly in the Sakha (Yakutia) Republic. However, it is practically non-existent among many of the Yakuts' neighboring ethnic groups, such as Tungusic speakers. It also has been detected in 2.4% (2/85) of a sample from Seoul, South Korea[18] and in 1.4% (1/70) of a sample from Tokushima, Japan[10].

The haplogroup N-M46 has a low diversity among Yakuts suggestive of a population bottleneck or founder effect.[19] This was confirmed by a study of ancient DNA which traced the origins of the male Yakut lineages to a small group of horse-riders from the Cis-Baïkal area.

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It was also common knowledge in the 19th century that the Fins and Magyar were (at least linguistically) related, hence the term "Finno-Ugric".

Also that long ago they split up somewhere in the east and went their own ways.

The creators didn't have to know anything of genetics to still be able to use this theory for their story.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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I am not going to quote from your post, lol, or else I get miscroscopic letters too.

With the original Magyar I mean those we all know of and invaded Europe a 1000 years ago. The present Magyar are a European people who adopted the language from these Asian tribes.

The creators of the OLB mixed up two peoples: the Asian Magyar and the Middle Eastern Magi, and thus suddenly the shamanic and nomadic Magyar become a people with 'churches' and 'priests and a love for golden statues.

You should know by now how I view the OLB: as a concoction.

+++

EDIT:

I just see your latest post:

It is known that the ancient Chinese and Persians were in contact via the Silk Road.

.

Yes, I know you do but you can hardly use a Biblical idea of an area or the idea that the OLB 'mixed' up 2 people as proof against it's authenticity.

The idea the Magyar of the OLB were Chinese and there was a great Flood in China c. 2200BC is a certain possibilty - the Magyar of the OLB certainly do not have to be the Magyar who invaded Europe 1000 years ago. The worship of Serapis is a type of Christianity and many of them practised sorcery and magic...the 3 wise men (Magi) who announced Jesus birth were certainly astrologers and annointers, Christianity is founded in the Magi, Christianity has churches and statues, this is what the Magyar would have practised, in whatever might translate to an early type of church, as Serapis for example, was worshipped in, these are the churches imo referred to, I'm pretty sure they would have had idols in them too.

The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

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It was also common knowledge in the 19th century that the Fins and Magyar were (at least linguistically) related, hence the term "Finno-Ugric".

Also that long ago they split up somewhere in the east and went their own ways.

The creators didn't have to know anything of genetics to still be able to use this theory for their story.

.

It's probably true. The OLB hasn't mixed the Magyar up. They are both.

The most widely accepted theory of the Magyar's origin is the Finno-Ugrian concept. Advocates of this theory believe the linguistic and ethnic kinship between the Hungarians and the Finns, Esthonians, Ostyaks and Voguls provide evidence for the origin of the Magyars. This relation of the Magyars with the Finns places the ancient homeland of the Finno-Ugrians on both sides of the southern Ural Mountains. The advocates of this theory insist that Magyars came from this group in the Urals, and as the theory explains, it was about 2000 B.C. that the Finnish branch broke away to settle in the Baltic area. The Magyars remained on the West Siberian steppes with the other Ugrian peoples until 500 B.C. It was then that the Magyars crossed the Urals westward to settle in what is present day Soviet Bashkiria, north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus. The Magyars remained here for centuries with the various Ural-Altaic peoples such as the Huns, Turkic Bulgars, Alans and Onogurs. The Magyars soon adopted many cultural traits and customs of these people and it was from the region of Soviet Bashkiria that the Magyars started their migration westward toward the Carpathians.

http://hungarianhist...om/magyars.html

The Urals maybe, possibly further East - maybe the language was picked up in the Urals at the point they were there, c. 2000BC, when a branch broke off to the Baltic.

Edited by The Puzzler
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N haplogroup could possibly show the key that from China spread a people into Finland circa 2200BC, where they are now N1c1. The Sami and Finns that look rather Asiatic look Chinese more than anything imo.

~SNIP~

Except that evidence suggests that N1c1 expanded into Europe c.6200 BC, 4000 years before anything remotely relevant to the OLB.

Importantly, the subcluster N3a1 appears to be older in south Siberia

than in Europe (10 ky and 8.2 ky ago, respectively), allowing the

suggestion that the first expansion of N3a1 occurred in the

south Siberian region, and then this subcluster spread to the

West, into the Urals and Eastern Europe.

Source: Y-chromosome haplogroup N dispersals from south Siberia to Europe

cormac

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