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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Ott

A minor mistranslation by Ottema (1872), copied by Sandbach (1876)

twice - english

tvisvar - icelandic

tweemaal - dutch

zweimal - german

två gånger - swedish

to ganger - norse

to gange - danish

[090/01]

TWÍJA THRITICH DÉGA NÉI MÀM HIRA DÁD

[O/S p.125]

Tweeëndertig dagen na moeders dood

Two-and-thirty days after my mother's death

Translated correctly by Jensma (2006):

"Tweemaal dertig dagen na mem haar dood" (twice thirty days)

[107/17]

TWIJA TWILIF VPP.EN ETMELDE

[O/S p.147]

tweemaal twaalf in een etmaal

twenty-four [twice twelve] go to a day

[209/32]

12 (TWILIF) MEL 100 (HVNDRED) ÀND TWIA.12 JÉR

[O/S p.165]

12 maal 100 en tweemaal 12 jaren

12 times 100 and twice 12 years

NOTE:

The Icelandic "tvisvar" (twice, two times) is interesting;

In OLB "WÁRA" is used many times in this way. Some examples:

[00b/03]

THVSAND WÁRA SÁ BIDD.IK TO JO

thousand times ...

[005/15]

NJVGUN WÁRA IS.ER TO HÉRTOGA [...] KÉREN

nine times ...

[006/02]

SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JÉR

seven times seven years

[011/27]

TÁNK TOWÍA. JÁ THRJU WARA

... yes, three times

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The Puzzler

A minor mistranslation by Ottema (1872), copied by Sandbach (1876)

twice - english

tvisvar - icelandic

tweemaal - dutch

zweimal - german

två gånger - swedish

to ganger - norse

to gange - danish

SNIP~

NOTE:

The Icelandic "tvisvar" (twice, two times) is interesting;

In OLB "WÁRA" is used many times in this way. Some examples:

[00b/03]

THVSAND WÁRA SÁ BIDD.IK TO JO

thousand times ...

[005/15]

NJVGUN WÁRA IS.ER TO HÉRTOGA [...] KÉREN

nine times ...

[006/02]

SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JÉR

seven times seven years

[011/27]

TÁNK TOWÍA. JÁ THRJU WARA

... yes, three times

Interesting, it appears to be in this WERA, from WARA: http://en.wiktionary...i/tveir#Faroese - tvær - like English 'very' also

wēr* 12, afries., Adj.: nhd. wahr, wahrheitsgetreu, wirklich, gültig; ne. true, truthful; Vw.: s. -haf-t-e-lik, -haf-t-ich, -haf-t-ic-hê-d, -hê-d, -lik, -līk-man-n; Hw.: vgl. got. *wēreis, an. værr (2), ae. wǣr (3), as. hwār*, wār* (1), ahd. wār* (1); Q.: R, H, W, E, B; E.: germ. *wēra-, *wēraz, *wǣra-, *wǣraz, *wērja-, *wērjaz, *wǣrja-, *wǣrjaz, Adj., zuverlässig, wahr, freundlich; idg. *u̯erōs-, Adj., freundlich, vertrauenswert, wahr, Pokorny 1165; s. idg. *u̯er- (11), *u̯erə-, Sb., Freundlichkeit, Pokorny 1165; W.: nfries. wier, Adj., wahr, wirklich; W.: saterl. wer, Adj., wahr, wirklich; W.: nnordfries. wer, Adj., wahr, wirklich; L.: Hh 127b, Rh 1135b; R.: at wēr-a, afries., Adv.: nhd. fürwahr; ne. indeed, truly; L.: Hh 151b

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ott

Puzzler, I don't see any connection to "waar" = true, or Faroese "tveir" = two

The Icelandic "tvisvar" (twice, two times) is interesting;

In OLB "WÁRA" is used many times in this way.

We may be onto something interesting here.

Jensma, in his 2006 translation, for many words gave what he thought would have been the source (i.e. mostly: Oldfrisian dictionary) that would allegedly have been used by the assumed forgers.

For "WÁRA" he did not know a source and could only translate it because of the context in which the word was used (see page 71 of his 2006 translation).

Now we see a link to Icelandic...

Will think more about this.

Edited by Othar Winis

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The Puzzler

Puzzler, I don't see any connection to "waar" = true, or Faroese "tveir" = two

We may be onto something interesting here.

Jensma, in his 2006 translation, for many words gave what he thought would have been the source (i.e. mostly: Oldfrisian dictionary) that would allegedly have been used by the assumed forgers.

For "WÁRA" he did no know a source and could only translate it because of the context in which the word was used (see page 71 of his 2006 translation).

Now we see a link to Icelandic...

Will think more about this.

tvis-var = twice 'to be'

Notice Scots etc under that - very - also Latin vera=true

http://en.wiktionary.../vera#Old_Norse

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/v%C3%A6re#Danish

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=very

Its hard to fit anything other than times it into the sentence context though...

seven times seven years for example - SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JÉR

depends I spose how the Icelandic word is really made up - tvis+var = twice+to be (to be two times/lots) seven+var=seven to be (to be seven times/lots)

Tis a tricky one.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ott
Where are there descriptions for round cities on a hill WITH a baked brick tower in the center and longhouses coming like the spokes of the Jol Wheel dating from either the Bronze or early Iron Age?

Do there have to be remains of those for OLB to be authentic?

So unless the Over de Linden family wrote a 'source' almanac at some point, this would imply the existence of manuscripts similar to the OLB up to the 19th century. Seems suspect we haven't found any of these.

The oldest known Frisian almanaks are from the 17th century. The date could also be based on oral tradition, but even it it was based on written sources, the fact that these are not publicly known does not prove a thing. Loads of important sources will be hiding in private collections.

So Egypt is named for Gypsies rather then vice versa, the Med is named after a sea which only came into being in the 12th century, and the Black Sea was named after the Baltic sea at some point, the pillars of Hercules are named for those in Frisia etc etc?

I don't get your point. OLB does not claim any of that and neither do I.

Helvetii wrote in a Greek script, NOT Jol script, which Caesar would not have been able to read. What else is there?

What is your point?

But this is attested to in exactly one source.

So, if a spelling variety is found in one source only, this means that the source is fake? Are you serious?

Only those excerpts of the first edition, though where I am in the old thread he has finished his second edition.

And he is one geologist against many.

That someone is one against many does not mean he is wrong.

OLB p.19/7 (Sandbach p.31):

TILTHJU THÀT MÁRA.DÉL ALSA BLÍD KÀN DWÁLA SA THÀT MINRA.DÉL

since the majority maybe wrong as well as the minority

If you want to claim he is wrong, you will have to come with real arguments.

I don't. I just dispute that the combination of the two into one word ever existed before the 1500s or whenever it was.

So you can't imagine that it existed. But we cannot be sure it didn't exist. That there is no other source (yet) is no proof.

]OKKE MY SON—[/b]

You must preserve these books with body and soul. They contain the history of all our people, as well as of our forefathers. Last year I saved them in the flood, as well as you and your mother; but they got wet

Pretty clear he is referring to an actual flood. But even if he's not, what recorded incursions were there circa 1243?

The year was 1256 and in that year the army of Holland invaded Westfriesland, trying to conquer it. They failed. Their king Willem II fell through the ice and died.

Also, like I said before, not all real floods were necessarily recorded.

Why did Tolkien write Lord of the Rings (I know you hate the comparison but it's legitimate)? Why would Geoffrey of Monmouth write tales of Brutus and Corineus the Trojans and Etrusco-Trojans? Why would someone go through the effort to construct Dothraki?

It don't hate that comparison, but it fails. Tolkien lived from 1892 till 1973. He will have known the OLB and he may have been inspired by the idea. He did not work in secret, got money and honour for his work. I could give more arguments, but I am getting bored.

Because the results were inconclusive?

Because the results were not what they wanted them to be. See my video about it:

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Van Gorp

tvis-var = twice 'to be'

Notice Scots etc under that - very - also Latin vera=true

http://en.wiktionary.../vera#Old_Norse

http://en.wiktionary...ki/være#Danish

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=very

Its hard to fit anything other than times it into the sentence context though...

seven times seven years for example - SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JÉR

depends I spose how the Icelandic word is really made up - tvis+var = twice+to be (to be two times/lots) seven+var=seven to be (to be seven times/lots)

Tis a tricky one.

Hey Puzz, you are becoming (if not always been) very good in connecting English and Dutch :-)

Het (It) Is -> drop the "H" when speaking and we write an apostrophe to tell we left something out -> 't Is ->Tis

An altered version become "deze" (these, this). So here you have the etymology of "these" in different Germanic forms as Dutch and English, meaning

This -> het (iT) IS (dees)

O. and Puzz, I think for the 'WARA' we can find the connection with the word "weer" (again, "keer op keer" -> weer-al, telkens weer, repeat!).

Repeat 12, and we have 24.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/weer6

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Van Gorp

And then we see that "THESIS" doesn't need any Greek/Latin/... or any other language to explain what it means:

A thesis is a position you take for something to consider as a thing that actually is: this-is,

Actually a pleonasme imo (or what is it that the learned fraction of us tend to call this style of double saying het-is-is.

't is is

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Van Gorp

Now we know why IS had to become IS-IS :-)

IS is real, you hear?

Yep, we hear in every bulletin or news story every day again and again and .... That IS the position we should take.

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Van Gorp

Do not fear, I'll stop here.

But this one is a nice one to:

Al Quaeda is said the be the data-boze.

I think it was used to point the all the evil (devil) we should take position against: al-kwade!

To end my spare time habbit: the devil is called like this because this is what he does: doe-val (do-fall). Duvel or Duivel.

He makes you fall.

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lilthor

Now we know why IS had to become IS-IS :-)

IS is real, you hear?

Yep, we hear in every bulletin or news story every day again and again and .... That IS the position we should take.

Hmmm...if one must be legit and the other a fraud, I'll pick OLB for the former and ISIS the latter.

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Van Gorp

Hmmm...if one must be legit and the other a fraud, I'll pick OLB for the former and ISIS the latter.

:-) Good one.

But I'm not sure how everybody connects fraud with how it came about or what is being told or what is written.

Even what is being told how it came about what has been written.

For me dates doesn't matter exactly in this question.

Because dates (same like data) point to a certain group (saying 'datte' when pointing to that).

Only relative meaning is here important for me. With exact timings there has been juggled with many times, and they are all relative.

Datum (i can't help it) points to a group of situations together in time, saying "dat-om".

Om meaning "proxi" in time -> Om en bij (At) -> Date = The At

Comes with that, that in some times one year could have meant one moon cycle. Easier to count imo.

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The Puzzler

Do not fear, I'll stop here.

But this one is a nice one to:

Al Quaeda is said the be the data-boze.

I think it was used to point the all the evil (devil) we should take position against: al-kwade!

To end my spare time habbit: the devil is called like this because this is what he does: doe-val (do-fall). Duvel or Duivel.

He makes you fall.

Nice one, he also fell, in 2 senses, as in the stories of Lucifer connected with Phaethon and the King of Babylon's fall, his fall from Heaven.

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Ott
OKKE MY SON [...] Last year I saved them in the flood...

Pretty clear he is referring to an actual flood [...]

Another example of a metaphorical flooding in similar context:

Early printing presses of 1600's flooding Europe with images of English Protestant missionaries and their families being ethnically cleansed by the native Irish. Images designed to bombard the psyche of the average European towards the popular mandate that 'something had to be done' about the barbaric Irish.

source (Thomas Sheridan Blog, this Oct. 6)

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The Puzzler

Another example of a metaphorical flooding in similar context:

Early printing presses of 1600's flooding Europe with images of English Protestant missionaries and their families being ethnically cleansed by the native Irish. Images designed to bombard the psyche of the average European towards the popular mandate that 'something had to be done' about the barbaric Irish.

source (Thomas Sheridan Blog, this Oct. 6)

Yes, but the OLB says the paper got wet and began to perish so one can only imagine he means a flood of water.

1255 is a famous year for the dike maintenance in the Netherlands, building dikes, flooding small areas by damming rivers, maybe some of these are unmentioned, being small and localised rather than big storms from the North Sea on record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoogheemraadschap_van_Rijnland

Count William II of Holland Granting Privileges in 1255 to the local Dike-wardens of Spaarndam by Caesar van Everdingen,

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Ott
... one can only imagine he means a flood of water.

Interesting...

Where it comes to etymologising words, your imagination runs out of control, but where it comes to interpretating the (original) text (e.g. dating of the BUDA story), you sometimes seem to have none at all.

As a born and raised Westfrisian, I am used to the use of extended metaphors and other tropes.

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The Puzzler

Interesting...

Where it comes to etymologising words, your imagination runs out of control, but where it comes to interpretating the (original) text (e.g. dating of the BUDA story), you sometimes seem to have none at all.

As a born and raised Westfrisian, I am used to the use of extended metaphors and other tropes.

I use context a lot and the context seems to say it got wet and perished from water but admittedly I haven't broken down the original text in that part to make definite.

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Ott
Yes, but the OLB says the paper got wet and began to perish so one can only imagine he means a flood of water.

It does not even have to be an extended metaphor:

Imagine they lived in Westfriesland (area near Enkhuizen), which was 'flooded' by Dutch (Holland) invasions.

Hidde takes his wife, son and the manuscripts and they escape to Friesland (Leeuwarden).

On their way the paper may have gotten wet, for example during heavy rain.

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The Puzzler

It does not even have to be an extended metaphor:

Imagine they lived in Westfriesland (area near Enkhuizen), which was 'flooded' by Dutch (Holland) invasions.

Hidde takes his wife, son and the manuscripts and they escape to Friesland (Leeuwarden).

On their way the paper may have gotten wet, for example during heavy rain.

Fair enough.

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Ott
Westfriesland (area near Enkhuizen), which was 'flooded' by Dutch (Holland) invasions.

This video is about the Dutch 'flooding' of Westfriesland and the significant year 1256 CE:

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flashman7870

Othar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Do there have to be remains of those for OLB to be authentic?

Either one other example of the Jol Script or a Citadel is probably what it would take for me to believe it. Though there are probably other things that could, just none I can think of ATM.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

The oldest known Frisian almanaks are from the 17th century. The date could also be based on oral tradition, but even it it was based on written sources, the fact that these are not publicly known does not prove a thing. Loads of important sources will be hiding in private collections.

Fair enough, but until others are found...(And it's Almanacs in English :whistle: )

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

I don't get your point. OLB does not claim any of that and neither do I.

I am convinced by Abramelin's 'Alternative Toponymy' of the OLB- Middle Sea is the Middelsee of Frisia (or possibly the Zuiter Sea, the Pillars or Hercules are the same as those depicted on a map that, coincidentally, was owned by Halbertsma, there was a King of Egyptland, a Gypsy King in Frisia, Massalia is Wessalia/ Wexalia/ Wassalia, Katjwik is Kaddik rather then Cadiz, Rome is the Rum in northern Germany, and so much more. Abramelin has posted them throughout the threads, though if he has a list of his alternate toponomys on notepad or something it would be cool if he could post that here.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

What is your point?

That no other examples of Jol script exist, and the Helvetii is one I see used a lot.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

So, if a spelling variety is found in one source only, this means that the source is fake? Are you serious?

No, just suspect.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

That someone is one against many does not mean he is wrong.

OLB p.19/7 (Sandbach p.31):

TILTHJU THÀT MÁRA.DÉL ALSA BLÍD KÀN DWÁLA SA THÀT MINRA.DÉL

since the majority maybe wrong as well as the minority

If you want to claim he is wrong, you will have to come with real arguments.

Well, firstly, there is no evidence of a dramatic axial tilt- not even Chixulculb or whatever did that, why would Umm al-Binni? And where is the evidence Northern Europe

"So you can't imagine that it existed. But we cannot be sure it didn't exist. That there is no other source (yet) is no proof."

Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence, and yet Absence of Evidence is not Evidence.

"The year was 1256 and in that year the army of Holland invaded Westfriesland, trying to conquer it. They failed. Their king Willem II fell through the ice and died.

Also, like I said before, not all real floods were necessarily recorded."

He clearly said it got wet. It was clearly intended to mean a watery flood.

See my above reply to your previous response.

"It don't hate that comparison, but it fails. Tolkien lived from 1892 till 1973. He will have known the OLB and he may have been inspired by the idea. He did not work in secret, got money and honour for his work. I could give more arguments, but I am getting bored."

Well, again with the absence of evidence, but nonetheless, it shows that a person with the help of nothing but an insatiable curiosity and a big enough library can convincingly create an entire world and language. Whether or not he was inspired by the OLB is irrelevant, it's not a cheap knock off.

"Because the results were not what they wanted them to be. See my video about it:"

Will watch the video, but what evidence is there aside from your suspicions?

Othar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Do there have to be remains of those for OLB to be authentic?

Either one other example of the Jol Script or a Citadel is probably what it would take for me to believe it. Though there are probably other things that could, just none I can think of ATM.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

The oldest known Frisian almanaks are from the 17th century. The date could also be based on oral tradition, but even it it was based on written sources, the fact that these are not publicly known does not prove a thing. Loads of important sources will be hiding in private collections.

Fair enough, but until others are found...(And it's Almanacs in English :whistle: )

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

I don't get your point. OLB does not claim any of that and neither do I.

I am convinced by Abramelin's 'Alternative Toponymy' of the OLB- Middle Sea is the Middelsee of Frisia (or possibly the Zuiter Sea, the Pillars or Hercules are the same as those depicted on a map that, coincidentally, was owned by Halbertsma, there was a King of Egyptland, a Gypsy King in Frisia, Massalia is Wessalia/ Wexalia/ Wassalia, Katjwik is Kaddik rather then Cadiz, Rome is the Rum in northern Germany, and so much more. Abramelin has posted them throughout the threads, though if he has a list of his alternate toponomys on notepad or something it would be cool if he could post that here.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

What is your point?

That no other examples of Jol script exist, and the Helvetii is one I see used a lot.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

So, if a spelling variety is found in one source only, this means that the source is fake? Are you serious?

No, just suspect.

snapback.pngOthar Winis, on 06 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

That someone is one against many does not mean he is wrong.

OLB p.19/7 (Sandbach p.31):

TILTHJU THÀT MÁRA.DÉL ALSA BLÍD KÀN DWÁLA SA THÀT MINRA.DÉL

since the majority maybe wrong as well as the minority

If you want to claim he is wrong, you will have to come with real arguments.

Well, firstly, there is no evidence of a dramatic axial tilt- not even Chixulculb or whatever did that, why would Umm al-Binni? And where is the evidence Northern Europe

"So you can't imagine that it existed. But we cannot be sure it didn't exist. That there is no other source (yet) is no proof."

Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence, and yet Absence of Evidence is not Evidence.

"The year was 1256 and in that year the army of Holland invaded Westfriesland, trying to conquer it. They failed. Their king Willem II fell through the ice and died.

Also, like I said before, not all real floods were necessarily recorded."

He clearly said it got wet. It was clearly intended to mean a watery flood.

See my above reply to your previous response.

"It don't hate that comparison, but it fails. Tolkien lived from 1892 till 1973. He will have known the OLB and he may have been inspired by the idea. He did not work in secret, got money and honour for his work. I could give more arguments, but I am getting bored."

Well, again with the absence of evidence, but nonetheless, it shows that a person with the help of nothing but an insatiable curiosity and a big enough library can convincingly create an entire world and language. Whether or not he was inspired by the OLB is irrelevant, it's not a cheap knock off.

"Because the results were not what they wanted them to be. See my video about it:"

Will watch the video, but what evidence is there aside from your suspicions?

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flashman7870

Interesting...

Where it comes to etymologising words, your imagination runs out of control, but where it comes to interpretating the (original) text (e.g. dating of the BUDA story), you sometimes seem to have none at all.

As a born and raised Westfrisian, I am used to the use of extended metaphors and other tropes.

Us uncultured non-Frisian swine obviously have no experience with metaphors :P Maybe if there had been a mass migration, or they had been trying to swamp the Frisians Red Army numbers style, then flood may make sense.

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flashman7870

Only 276 pages to go in the old thread!

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The Puzzler

Only 276 pages to go in the old thread!

Good one :tu:

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The Puzzler
I am convinced by Abramelin's 'Alternative Toponymy' of the OLB- Middle Sea is the Middelsee of Frisia (or possibly the Zuiter Sea, the Pillars or Hercules are the same as those depicted on a map that, coincidentally, was owned by Halbertsma, there was a King of Egyptland, a Gypsy King in Frisia, Massalia is Wessalia/ Wexalia/ Wassalia, Katjwik is Kaddik rather then Cadiz, Rome is the Rum in northern Germany, and so much more. Abramelin has posted them throughout the threads, though if he has a list of his alternate toponomys on notepad or something it would be cool if he could post that here.

It is quite convincing but the problem I find with it is this, if it is that these places are mentioned, there is still many unaccounted for but mostly, you would still have to accept the date that the events are occurring, so still accept that the Frisians had a thriving Bronze Age maritime culture that was doing the things it said in those places at those times, which seems to invalidate the whole need to have them in the localised places or is it more acceptable to think they still existed as said but didn't travel so far and wide?

Edited by The Puzzler

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