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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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flashman7870

Ingvi doesn't mean Lord, Freyr does.

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Ott
It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely.

Good, that one is settled then.

Any hard evidence against authenticity left?

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flashman7870

Good, that one is settled then.

Any hard evidence against authenticity left?

One cannot sail from Greece to Kashmyr in the Bronze Age, as the Sinai was not at that time water, as far as I know.

And I'm happy to see that I'm apparently no longer ignored :yes:

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The Puzzler

Ingvi doesn't mean Lord, Freyr does.

OK, I won't say that Ingvi means Lord as in Inca use, but more King as in one we pledge allegiance to - if the word has any connection at all.

Snorri says this: Frey was called by another name, Yngve; and this name Yngve was considered long after in his race as a name of honour, so that his descendants have since been called Ynglinger.

So he's actually saying the name Yngve was considered a name of honour too. Inge - Inke Inka

This name might mean 'to pledge' - en/in + gage - where gage can be wed through 'pledge'. http://www.etymonlin...php?term=engage

Root of wedding = to pledge = get engaged

The ing in kêning for example might not be a suffix as such but part of the meaning for king - ken+ing (kin pledge) ie; leader of your clan maybe

To pledge to something is often the way things were decided or leaders were denoted, you pledged your allegiance to them. Yngwe-Freyr could mean 'pledge to the honoured one/liberator' ie; one we pledge to

Ing actually sounds like King, so I'm going on that being correct.

In Scandinavian mythology, Yngvi, alternatively Yngve, was the progenitor of the Yngling lineage, a legendary dynasty of Swedish kings

Of course, king etymology won't tell you this, but they will say this: The sociological and ideological implications render this a topic of much debate. (king etymology)

So don't take much notice of me and my lego-linguistics.

I break Freyr's name down like this:

*Fraujaz or *Frauwaz (Old High German frô for earlier frôjo, frouwo, Old Saxon frao, frōio, Gothic frauja, Old English frēa, Old Norse freyr), feminine *Frawjō (OHG frouwâ, later also frû, Old Saxon frūa, Old English frōwe, Goth. *fraujô, Old Norse freyja) is a Common Germanic honorific meaning "lord", "lady", especially of deities

Its just an epithet or a nickname for what this word really means. So the etymology will not match. If we compare Frya's name or the name of the Goddess that is now Friday we see this:

frē 1, frō, afries., Adj.: nhd. froh; ne. glad; Hw.: vgl. got. *fraus, an. frār, as. frâ, frô*, ahd. frō (2); Q.: W, R; E.: germ. *frawa-, *frawaz, Adj., rasch, hurtig, froh, fröhlich; vgl. idg. *preu-, V., springen, hüpfen, Pokorny 845; W.: s. nfries. frolyck; L.: Hh 31a, Rh 767b?

frēdei, frē-dei, afries., st. M. (a): Vw.: s. frī-a-dei

frēdî, frē-dî, afries., st. M. (a): Vw.: s. frī-a-dei

This is the true etymology of Frya's name and Freyr's name. Note *frawaz PIE Freyr (sometimes anglicized Frey, from *frawjaz "lord"

We see this as free also and the word fry is used for the word free in the OLB.

Free really means love, Priam's name also means this. It's love and honour = to liberate = to (be) free

free (v.) Old English freogan "to free, liberate, manumit," also "to love, think of lovingly, honor," from freo (see free (adj.)). Compare Old Frisian fria "to make free;" Old Saxon friohan "to court, woo;" German befreien "to free," freien "to woo;" Old Norse frja "to love;" Gothic frijon "to love." Related: Freed; freeing

The Frisian version is glad, which equals 'happy, love, liberated, free'. That is Frya's Day.

For Old Norse, Snorri says that freyja is a tignarnafn (name of honour) derived from the goddess, that grand ladies, rîkiskonur, are freyjur.

Freyr is the male variant of same. The word Freyr means Lord only through it meaning 'honoured/loved/free'

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ott
One cannot sail from Greece to Kashmyr in the Bronze Age, as the Sinai was not at that time water, as far as I know.

Dr. Ottema already answered that, as translated by Sandbach (1876, p.xiii-xiv of Introduction):

The establishment of the colonists in the Punjab in 1551 before Christ, and their journey thither, we find fully described in Adela's book; and with the mention of one most remarkable circumstance, namely, that the Frisian mariners sailed through the strait which in those times still ran into the Red Sea.

In Strabo, book i. pages 38 and 50, it appears that Eratosthenes was acquainted with the existence of the strait, of which the later geographers make no mention. It existed still in the time of Moses (Exodus xiv. 2), for he encamped at Pi-ha-chiroht, the "mouth of the strait." Moreover, Strabo mentions that Sesostris made an attempt to cut through the isthmus, but that he was not able to accomplish it. That in very remote times the sea really did flow through is proved by the result of the geological investigations on the isthmus made by the Suez Canal Commission, of which M. Renaud presented a report to the Academy of Sciences on the 19th June 1856.

etc.

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Van Gorp

OK, I won't say that Ingvi means Lord as in Inca use, but more King as in one we pledge allegiance to - if the word has any connection at all.

Snorri says this: Frey was called by another name, Yngve; and this name Yngve was considered long after in his race as a name of honour, so that his descendants have since been called Ynglinger.

So he's actually saying the name Yngve was considered a name of honour too. Inge - Inke Inka

This name might mean 'to pledge' - en/in + gage - where gage can be wed through 'pledge'. http://www.etymonlin...php?term=engage

Root of wedding = to pledge = get engaged

The ing in kêning for example might not be a suffix as such but part of the meaning for king - ken+ing (kin pledge) ie; leader of your clan maybe

To pledge to something is often the way things were decided or leaders were denoted, you pledged your allegiance to them. Yngwe-Freyr could mean 'pledge to the honoured one/liberator' ie; one we pledge to

Ing actually sounds like King, so I'm going on that being correct.

In Scandinavian mythology, Yngvi, alternatively Yngve, was the progenitor of the Yngling lineage, a legendary dynasty of Swedish kings

Of course, king etymology won't tell you this, but they will say this: The sociological and ideological implications render this a topic of much debate. (king etymology)

So don't take much notice of me and my lego-linguistics.

I break Freyr's name down like this:

*Fraujaz or *Frauwaz (Old High German frô for earlier frôjo, frouwo, Old Saxon frao, frōio, Gothic frauja, Old English frēa, Old Norse freyr), feminine *Frawjō (OHG frouwâ, later also frû, Old Saxon frūa, Old English frōwe, Goth. *fraujô, Old Norse freyja) is a Common Germanic honorific meaning "lord", "lady", especially of deities

Its just an epithet or a nickname for what this word really means. So the etymology will not match. If we compare Frya's name or the name of the Goddess that is now Friday we see this:

frē 1, frō, afries., Adj.: nhd. froh; ne. glad; Hw.: vgl. got. *fraus, an. frār, as. frâ, frô*, ahd. frō (2); Q.: W, R; E.: germ. *frawa-, *frawaz, Adj., rasch, hurtig, froh, fröhlich; vgl. idg. *preu-, V., springen, hüpfen, Pokorny 845; W.: s. nfries. frolyck; L.: Hh 31a, Rh 767b?

frēdei, frē-dei, afries., st. M. (a): Vw.: s. frī-a-dei

frēdî, frē-dî, afries., st. M. (a): Vw.: s. frī-a-dei

This is the true etymology of Frya's name and Freyr's name. Note *frawaz PIE Freyr (sometimes anglicized Frey, from *frawjaz "lord"

We see this as free also and the word fry is used for the word free in the OLB.

Free really means love, Priam's name also means this. It's love and honour = to liberate = to (be) free

free (v.) Old English freogan "to free, liberate, manumit," also "to love, think of lovingly, honor," from freo (see free (adj.)). Compare Old Frisian fria "to make free;" Old Saxon friohan "to court, woo;" German befreien "to free," freien "to woo;" Old Norse frja "to love;" Gothic frijon "to love." Related: Freed; freeing

The Frisian version is glad, which equals 'happy, love, liberated, free'. That is Frya's Day.

For Old Norse, Snorri says that freyja is a tignarnafn (name of honour) derived from the goddess, that grand ladies, rîkiskonur, are freyjur.

Freyr is the male variant of same. The word Freyr means Lord only through it meaning 'honoured/loved/free'

Concerning the possible relation Inca Yngvi Freyr, i think the following:

"Innige", sincere, deep (like a promess)

http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/innig

or "Enige" (unique)

Freyer seems to me "Vrijer" (lover, vrij-en, friend)

King could come from kin-ing (kindsmen or offspring from ...)

Inca and Inuit are also related imo.

Edited by Van Gorp

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The Puzzler

Concerning the possible relation Inca Yngvi Freyr, i think the following:

"Innige", sincere, deep (like a promess)

http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/innig

or "Enige" (unique)

Freyer seems to me "Vrijer" (lover, vrij-en, friend)

King could come from kin-ing (kindsmen or offspring from ...)

Inca and Inuit are also related imo.

Freyr is to love, to think of, I agree. He may even represent love as in fertility since he's recorded as Frikko and his statue has an immense phallus.

Still not exactly sure what I think of Ingvi but it's a super interesting word.

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Ott
Freyer seems to me "Vrijer" (lover, vrij-en, friend)

... or frère (french for brother)?

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The Puzzler

Its interesting how with the Frisian dictionary entry I showed for GLAD (that was Frya because the same word went to Friday) that I also noticed FROLIC in there, so wanted to make sure the connection to FREE was actually still in GLAD.

It does, being happy, glad, frolicking around = being free, having freedom.

frolic (comparative more frolic, superlative most frolic)

  1. (now rare) Merry, joyous; later especially, frolicsome, sportive, full of playful mischief.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

Concerning the possible relation Inca Yngvi Freyr, i think the following:

"Innige", sincere, deep (like a promess)

http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/innig

or "Enige" (unique)

Freyer seems to me "Vrijer" (lover, vrij-en, friend)

King could come from kin-ing (kindsmen or offspring from ...)

Inca and Inuit are also related imo.

The first word actually sounds like the meaning of 'engage' I showed, getting engaged is a promise or being sincere.

Freyr would be a friend, a brother, a lover, one you loved, honoured and showed sincerity to, one who showed you generosity, bountifulness, love, honour, joy, gladness and happiness. "Lord".

Just as Frya was to the Fryans.

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The Puzzler

Yes, they not only have desired to rob Frya and the Eeremoeders of their honourable title (with whom they cannot put themselves upon an equality), but they do the same with the honourable titles of their fellow-creatures. There are women who allow themselves to be called ladies, although they know that that only belongs to the wives of princes.

Jae navt allêna thaet hja Frya aend tha êremodar fon bjara glor-rika nôma birâwa wille, hwêran bja navt nâka ne müge, hja dvath alên mitha glornôma fon hjara nêsta. Thêr send wiva thêr hjara selva lêtath frovva hêta, afsken hja wête thaet thjuse nôme allêna to forsta wiva hêreth.

hêreth

hēremann 1, hēremonn, hēr-e-man-n, hēr-e-mon-n, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Pächter; ne. tenant, leaseholder;

ie; Lord (of the estate) - not really prince.

This might be Hera's name too.

The 'ladies'/frovva were only really the wife of a Lord. Equal to a Lord, just like Frya/Freya and Freyr were equal honourables. The Lords were rich, respected, honourable people who looked after the common people.

Thêr send wiva thêr hjara selva lêtath frovva hêta,

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

nawet owers ni dva ne mêi, tha blyda fêrsta fyrja.

keep that day otherwise than as a joyful feast.

This threw me off, but JOYFUL FEAST would translate better to FIRST FEAST

Actually, seems to me the word FIESTA is related to FiERSTA (translated as joyful here) rather than FEAST. Is a fiesta really a feast or is it a joyful time...?

ferista, feresta, ferosta, fersta (3), fer-ist-a, fer-est-a, fer-ost-a, fer-st-a (3), afries., Adj. (Superl.): nhd. vorderste, erste; ne. first

fīre 9, fīr-e, afries., F.: nhd. Feiertag; ne. feast

And the feir is the fire that cooked the feast, so feast is appearing, not to me, as fiesta, but rather the joyful part is the fiesta. Interesting.

fīreldei 1 und häufiger, fīr-el-dei, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Feiertag; ne. feast (N.);

~~~~~~~

I'm always on the lookout for other words that may be the proper words in the text, rather than what has been translated. The fruit and nut thing always has bothered me. I have no answer yet but found these, which might help show the word nut is not coming from Latin, and froude might be it's own word, rather than 'fruit' meaning delight ie; fruit and nuts - fruche and nochte and Wraldas delight bit, will think about those some more and won't bog down in it here until I have something.

froude 1, frou-d-e, afries., F.: nhd. Freude; ne. delight

notma 1, not-m-a, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Frucht, Nutzen, Ertrag; ne. fruit (N.), yield (N.); Q.: AA 157; E.: s. not-ia;

Edited by The Puzzler
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Ott
blyda fêrsta fyrja.

blyda - dutch: blijde = blithe, joyful

fêrsta - dutch: feesten, german: Feste = feasts

fyrja - dutch: vieren, german: feiern = to celebrate

to celebrate blithe feasts

Edited by Othar Winis
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Van Gorp

Makes me think about the connection "Vieren" (to celebrate) and "Vrij zijn" (to be free).

Vieren also means to give free rein.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vieren2

When having a good feast: let the b(f)east go! :-)

Vyr and Vry, quite the same?

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The Puzzler

blyda - dutch: blijde = blithe, joyful

fêrsta - dutch: feesten, german: Feste = feasts

fyrja - dutch: vieren, german: feiern = to celebrate

to celebrate blithe feasts

The point there was in FRISIAN the word fersta is NOT feast, but FIRST and the word fyrja equates to FEAST. Don't forget the text is FRISIAN. fêrsta fyrja

ferista, feresta, ferosta, fersta (3), fer-ist-a, fer-est-a, fer-ost-a, fer-st-a (3), afries., Adj. (Superl.): nhd. vorderste, erste; ne. first

fīre 9, fīr-e, afries., F.: nhd. Feiertag; ne. feast

But blyda would be the joyful part - so imo it says 'joyful first feasts' in Frisian, same word order.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

Or 'blithe first feast' to be more precise.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ott
Or 'blithe first feast' to be more precise.

Read my study of the word for feast:

http://fryskednis.blogspot.de/2014/07/ferst-fest-feast.html

sample (numbers are fragment numbers, see link above):

singular:

FÉRST - 12

FÉRSTE - 1,8,13

FÉST - 6,11

FÉSTE - 10

plural:

FÉRSTA - 2,4,5,7,9

FÉSTUM - 3

specific feast:

JOL.FÉRSTE - 1,8,13

WÉR.FÉSTE - 10

combination with verb:

FÉRSTA FÍRJA - 2

FÉST FÍRJA - 6,11

FÉRST HALDEN - 12

with adjective:

BLÍDA FÉRSTA - 2

MÉNA, HUSLIKA, ALLE FÉRSTA - 4

WLA FÉRSTA - 5

WLA DROCTENLIKA FÉRSTA - 9

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Ott
fíre 9, fír-e, afries., F.: nhd. Feiertag; ne. feast

This word equates to german "Feier", dutch "viering" = celebration

Derived from verb "feiern" / "vieren" (to celebrate)

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The Puzzler

Read my study of the word for feast:

http://fryskednis.bl...fest-feast.html

sample (numbers are fragment numbers, see link above):

OK, I have changed the FERSTA part (where I had first) to FEST (as in festival but not feast)

Because you say that in German fersta can be feste, however Im going with feste not being feast in Frisian but meaning festival (fest) the original meaning of later feast, feast in Frisian and Fryan is fyrja.

You said: fêrsta - dutch: feesten, german: Feste = feasts

I stick with Frisian, not Dutch or German, so:

nawet owers ni dva ne mêi, tha blyda fêrsta fyrja.

keep that day otherwise than as a joyful festival feast.

= blithe festa (festival) feast.

In English we wouldn't say Julefeast - we'd say Julefest

With all due respect, I think you can translate all the fragments in your link to make sense as such is given below in Frisian with ferste/fersta as fest/festival. Only fyrja is feast.

festaēvend 3, festelēvend, festajound, festeljound, fest-a-ēvend, fest-el-ēvend, fest-a-jound, fest-el-jound, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Fastnacht; ne. carnival; - (festival)

fīre 9, fīr-e, afries., F.: nhd. Feiertag; ne. feast (N.); (this word is firja/fyrja)

TO MIDNE FONET FÉST.FÍRJA

in the midst of feast-celebrating

in the midst of fest feasting (mine)

AFSKÉN HJARA FÉRSTA ALGADUR DROV ÀND BLODICH SEND

although their feasts are all dreary and bloody

although their festivals are all dreary and bloody (mine)

Sandbach also has festival here.

ÀFTER.DAM WARTH FÉRST HALDEN

after that a feast was held

after that a festival was held (mine)

ALLERHÁNA WLA DROCTENLIKA FÉRSTA

various foul idolatrous feasts

various vile idolatrous (godlike) festivals (mine)

THAT WI.R JÉRLIKS ÉNIS FÉST VR FÍRJA

that we celebrate a feast once yearly over it

That we yearly once fest and feast (mine)

etc etc.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ott
THAT WI.R JÉRLIKS ÉNIS FÉST VR FÍRJA

that we celebrate a feast once yearly over it

That we yearly once fest and feast (mine)

How do you turn VR into "and"?

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The Puzzler

How do you turn VR into "and"?

A minor detail, it's 2.20am here so must bed it, possibly 'over' might be better word there - we yearly once fest over feasting, ie (modern); have conversation OVER dinner - (the rest are just festivals, with no feast, only the occasional one, like this) I will look into the many interpretations of ur for better word tomorrow.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ott
Highly recommended!

This was an under-statement.

I am in utter awe.

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flashman7870

Found something really interesting in the Doggerland Thread...

Amazingly, the assertion has been made that the area between

Heligoland and Eiderstedt has been under the sea for 6000 years; and

that consequently the island Abalus/Basileia/Farria/Fositesland could

never have lain there (Gripp 1953). This is contradicted by the

researches of all genuine experts in the geology and oceanography of

this area, whose results may now be summarized.

The Kiel geologist E. Wasmund placed the amber island 'off the coast

of Eiderstedt, where tertiary clays overlay amber- and carbon-bearing

sands' (1937, p. 36). The geologists W. Wolff .and H.C. Reck, also

from Kiel, wrote: 'One may well accept that somewhere between

Heligoland and Eiderstedt lies the ancient amber land ... so it is

also probable that in this area lies the island Abalus of the

ancients' (1922, p. 360). O. Pratje, one of the greatest experts on

the geology of Heligoland, wrote: 'But Heligoland remained joined on

the east side to the mainland, from which it projected as a peninsula.

Its submersion did not occur all at once, but piecemeal; this can be

seen from the series of underwater terraces, the remains of former

shorelines. . . The Stone Age and Bronze Age people, whose remains

have been found on Heligoland,must have reached here dryshod, without

having to cross any wide sea inlets. For at that time the island was

joined to the mainland'. (1953, p. 57f.) C. Delf, an outstanding

expert on the history of North Frisia, wrote that the island of

Abalus/Basileia lay 'east of Heligoland, but 15-20km west of St Peter'

(1936, p. 126).

R. Hennig looked for the island, on the evidence of the ancient

authors, 'halfway between Heligoland and the mainland' (1941, p. 955).

Finally, the prehistorian C. Ahrens has stated on the evidence of many

geological, oceanolographic and archaeological investigations: 'At all

events some particularly high-standing parts of the south ridge must

have remained as islands, whose traces can still be recognized on the

Steingrund, the 'Loreley bank', and near Oldenswort - today part of

the mainland of Eiderstedt.' He further stated that, 'This chain of

islands resisted the attacks'of the sea for a considerable time, in

places perhaps to the frontier of historic times' (1966, p. 38-9).

But there is more. There is reliable evidence to show that this island

was still inhabited up to medieval times. I have already described

how, after the catastrophic flooding of 1220 BC, the island

re-surfaced when the sea retreated during the Iron Age. It will be

shown below (page 250) that it was visited by Pytheas of Massilia in

about 350 BC and its position precisely described. I have also

described the reports of the early Christian missionaries, and of Adam

of Bremen.

In papal documents from the period 1065-1158, 'Farria' is mentioned as

a bishop's see (Carstens 1965, p. 52ff.). Eilbert, for example, is

described as 'Farriensis Episcopus'. In the year 1065, Pope Alexander

wrote to the bishops of Denmark, mentioning that Archbishop Adalbert

of Hamburg had complained of Bishop Eilbertus, 'Farriensis Episcopus',

who had failed to appear at synods for three years and had committed

various offences. At the same time Adalbert wrote to King Sweyn (or

Svein) II of Denmark, to a'sk him to break off all communication with

Eilbert of Farria and to take over the collection of church revenues

(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 5).

The island of Farria is also mentioned later. About 1193, a Bishop Orm

'Faroensis'1 is named next to Bishop Hermann of Schleswig

(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 77). The Emperor Frederick

Barbarossa declared in a deed of 1158 that the privileges which were

accorded to the bishop of Hamburg were to be extended and Hamburg was

to be the metropolitan see for Farria also. In the documents of the

time, 'Farria' and 'Frisia' alternate.

Laur has given it as his opinion that 'Farria' is to be understood as

the Faeroes (1951, p. 416ff.). But this is impossible. The Faeroes do

not lie 'in the mouth of the Elbe', 'across from Hadeln', as Adam of

Bremen described the site of Farria. They have never been inhabited by

Frisians, nor are they 'on the boundary between the Frisians and the

Danes', nor(as the scholiast stated) 'visible from an island at the

mouth of the Eider'. Besides, the history of the bishops of the

Faeroes is perfectly well known. The first one was called Gudemund; he

died in 1116; his successor Matthew in 1157. And the missionaries

Wulfram, Willibrord and Liudger were never on the Faeroes.

So we have evidence from Papal and Imperial documents from the

eleventh and twelfth centuries that the island of Farria/Heiligland

existed at that time and had by no means sunk into the sea 6000 years

previously.

It is most probable that Heimreich used older documents now lost for

his North Frisian Chronicle of 1666 when, in the passage I have

already quoted (page 47), he stated that on 'Siidstrand' or

'Heilig-land' (which he elsewhere calls 'Heiligland or Farria insula')

there were nine parishes 'anno 1030', but that after the great floods

of 1202 and 1216 'but two churches remained'. According to Heimreich

these last two churches finally disappeared after the 'great deluge'

of 1362. It appears from a letter of indulgence of the Council of

Basle in the year 1442, that during the preceding period on the west

coast of Schleswig no fewer than sixty churches had been flooded over

(Peters 1929, p. 542). At that time (1362) according to the Dithmarsch

chronicler Neocorus, who was preacher in Busum from 1590 to 1624,

'between flood and ebbtide 200,000 folk were drowned' (1.313).

On the oldest extant map of Heligoland, we find written to the east of

it, 'Here is a stone-work that stretches one and a half miles into the

sea, where in past time, they say, seven churches stood. They can

still be seen at low water.' The 'mile' here is the Danish mile of

7.42km. So in 1570 ruins could still be seen at low water 11-12 km

east of Heligoland. W. Stephe, who studied this map (1930, p. 96)

remarked that the tradition of the seven churches is found also' in

Rantzau and other sixteenth-century writers. Caspar Danckwerth, the

learned doctor and Burgomaster of Husum, whose work describing the

country was 'unequalled in its time for scope and accuracy' (Hedemann

1926, p. 878) confirmed these reports, and said that even at high

water one could walk eastwards from Heligoland 'for a mile [7.42km] on

the sand'.

In King Waldemar II's 'Earth Book' of 1231, we find: 'Eydersteth and

Lundebiarghaereth, whence the King is used to cross over to Utland'.

So Utland, or Siidstrand, between Eiderstedt and Heligoland, must have

been large enough in 1231 for King Waldemar to find accommodation

there for a whole army.

In the Eiderstedt Chronicle, which records many events from the period

between 1103 and 1547, we read under the year 1338: 'Here began Utland

first to break in two, and all the dykes to break up' (Peters 1929, p.

581). There is an old map which must have been drawn before 1634

because it shows the island of'Strand' which was destroyed in that

year.

On it is written:' Universa haec regio Frisica Septentrionalis

olimfuit terra . . . in tot partes disrupta? ('This whole region of

North Frisia was once land, but has been broken up into many parts').

Johannes Petrejus, 'whose notes are fully confirmed by documents in

the Royal Archives at Copenhagen' (Panten 1976), reported in the year

1597 that in an old missal of the church of St Peter, the island was

'called Siiderstrand', but that it had 'now disappeared'. These and

many other pieces of evidence show that in the early Middle Ages, an

island or a chain of islands still lay between Heligoland and

Eiderstedt, 'of which part was of old called Utland or Siiderstrand,

that once reached as far as Heligoland' (Heimrefch 166b, 80).

The last remains of these islands must, as Heimreich says, have sunk

in the 'great deluge' of 1362, which is mentioned not only by Neocorus

but by the Eiderstedt Chronicle: 'Anno 1362 at midnight there came the

greatest of floods; then were drowned most of the folk of Utland'

(Peters 1929, p. 581).

A fatal ignorance of these and many other historical and geological

researches is shown in Gripp's assertion that the 'Area around

Heligoland sank slowly into the sea about 5000 BC. The Neolithic

remains that have been found on Heligoland are simply the remains of

hunting expeditions, for it was only visited from time to time by

hunters. A Bronze Age settlement there is not indicated.' In answer I

refer him to the many Bronze Age finds, and the thirteen Bronze Age

grave-mounds, which 'show the existence of a considerable settlement

on Heligoland up to the period 1550-1300 BC' (Zylman 1952, p. 39;

Ahrens 1966, p. 244).

Equally imbecile - in the face of the many catastrophic floods of

which we have not only documentary evidence but traces in the shape of

finds from drowned woods and settlements - are Wetzel's assertion that

'our geological evidence indicates gradual, on the whole

disturbance-free, processes', and his talk of'Spanuth's outdated

catastrophe-theory'; and the appeals to 'special researches' whose

results are not available and which in spite of repeated invitations

he cannot produce.

These two gentlemen know nothing of the 'Steingrund', about which they

asked, and nothing about the undersea ridge between Heligoland and

Eiderstedt, which was formerly known as the 'Siiderstrand'. This

underwater ridge is still clearly visible on the isobath chart of the

sea between Heligoland and Eiderstedt.

Could 'Jutland' or 'Utland' be derived from Atland or Aldland?

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Ott
Found something really interesting in the Doggerland Thread...

Link, source?

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