Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[The Puzzler]

Good point.

Two possible explanations:

- Liko did not know the Atland year numbering system, but his descendant Hidde did, later (through other sources).

or:

- Liko did not mention the Atland system, because in his time it was still so common that he did not feel he needed to, but Hidde later added it because it became less used.

Here's my thought:

If they (Hidde) knew the date - because apparently the Frisian Almanak does give the same year for the 'flood' - genuine Frisian knowledge may have actually known this date as a date that such a calamity did occur, so yes, Hidde knew because it was possibly well-known or at least known enough (the year of the Atland flood) to warrant mention in the Almanak - even if people think the Almanak is circular reasoning and the OLB came after it - if you actually take it at face value - the year should be known, in Frisian history and to Hidde - Liko may have known it also but didn't mention it for no other reason than he just didn't as the context of his note is quite different from Hidde, who is quite desperate to keep the book alive, with he himself, copying it out.

[Abramelin]

"Boddhisatva" does not have to mean "false", for FO or FOT to mean "false" or "fout".

Can you prove FOT has nothing to do with Dutch "fout"?

Prove?

First: FOT is not used in the OLB. It's FO. And FO sounds like the French FAUX, which does indeed mean "false". FO doesn't mean anything in OLBish, Old Frisian or Old Dutch (as far as I know).

Second: FOT is how the Chinese/Tibetans called Buddha/Bodhissatva. It really doesn't sound likely that they called their spiritual leader "False".

No proof, of course, but have you anything better?

[Ott]

Prove? [...]

No proof, of course [...]

There you go. Thanks.

[The Puzzler]

This sounds like a name that could be compatible with the meaning of Buddha/BODHISAVTA...

Not that Ive really delved into it, but thought Id look for a compatible meaning in Frisian for a term NOT meaning false for Buddha.... since Abe wrote this: " It really doesn't sound likely that they called their spiritual leader "False" and Jan wrote this ""Boddhisatva" does not have to mean "false", for FO or FOT to mean "false" or "fout"."

It never ceases to amaze me how many times the words Im looking for are in it and have appropriate meanings to something Im looking for to match it...

fogid 34, foged, fogeth, foud, fog-id, fog-ed, fog-eth, fou-d, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Vogt, Stellvertreter des Königs, Stellvertreter des Grafen, Kirchenvogt, Kirchenältester, Kirchenvorsteher, Landschöffe, Vertreter des Priesters vor Gericht, Vormund, Vertreter; ne. bailiff, governor, churchwarden, guardian (M.); ÜG.: lat. advocātus

I agree with Jan, not through bias to the topic but because it seems possible - that Boddhisatva (FOT) does not mean false but FO does.

Edited March 4, 2015 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I need to fix this post up and Ill repost it.

Edited March 4, 2015 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

Another OLB word explained:

[004/04] (Adela's speech)

IK WÉT WEL THÀT J THÉRMITHA ANDA BRVD SITTE

Ottema (1872):

Ik weet wel dat gij daarmede aan den grond zit (aground, stuck)

Sandbach (1876):

I know that you are in a difficulty about it

Wirth (1933):

Ich weiß wohl, daß ihr damit in der Verlegenheit seid (embarrassment, perplexity, quandary, awkwardness)

Jensma (2006; added in footnote that source was unknown and that he translated it based on context):

Ik weet wel dat u daarmee in de penarie zit (perplexity, abashment, embarrassment)

Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal (WNT):

bruid ook BRUIT, en in verbogen vorm BRUITE, znw. vr. (?); mv. bruiten. Een woord dat reeds in de middeleeuwen, in Brabant, voorkomt (...), en dat zeker wel verwant is met Brui en een of meer der ald. genoemde woorden. Denkelijk zijn de onderstaande bett. ontstaan uit eene meer algemeene: draf, vuile vloeistof, poespas, wellicht: water waarin iets gekookt, waarmede iets klaargemaakt is; (...)

1. Draf, spoeling, varkensvoeder. (liquid pigfood of leavings)

2. Vloeibare beer, menschendrek (liquid muck, human dung)

3. In de haringvisscherij (...) vuile pekel (in herring fishery: dirty brine)

So, a translation closer to the original meaning would be, as we say:

"... you are in (deep) **** with that" (situation)

[Ott]

Most likely related dutch words:

brui, verbruien (mess, mess up, waste)

prut, verprutsen (mudd, mess up, waste)

(prithvi in sanskrit is earth, soil - possibly related)

Fragments with the verb and words derived from it:

THRVCH WAN.KÉTHINGA WISTON HJA ALLE TO WISA ÀND TO VRBRUDA

HWA FON VS FOLK THÉR.ET ALSA ÀRG VRBRUD HÉDE

THÀT VRBRÛDE ÀND VRBASTERDE SLACHT

HJA NILDE NAVT BIGRIPPA THAT HJARA SÉDE VRBRÛDE KOSTE

THJU TÁLE THÉRA ÁST.SKÉN.LANDAR IS THRVCH THA WLA MAGJARA VRBRÛD

VRBRÛDING VSRA RÉNE TÁLE

VSA VRBRUDA BROTHARUM ÀND HJARA SALT.ÁTHUM

THA JUTTAR WÉRON SUNT LÔNG VRBRUD

MITH HULPE FON THA VRBRÛDA FÁMNA

THA HÉMNISSA FON HJARA VRBRUDA LÉRE

Edited March 5, 2015 by Jan Ott

[Ott]

Also related the verb "brouwen": to make soup, beer or cook anything somehow liquid.

LOL official ('scientific') dutch etymologists have no clue.

They think the word "prut" is derived from the sound a porridge makes when it cooks or something falls into it... (I'm not kidding!).

Klanknabootsing van het geluid dat een weke massa of brij kan maken als die gist of kookt, als er iets in valt, enz.; de oorspr. betekenis is dus wrsch. ‘substantie die het geluid prut kan voortbrengen’.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/prut

=> "so the original meaning is probably a substance that can produce the sound prut"

...?!

[The Puzzler]

Also related the verb "brouwen": to make soup, beer or cook anything somehow liquid.

LOL official ('scientific') dutch etymologists have no clue.

They think the word "prut" is derived from the sound a porridge makes when it cooks or something falls into it... (I'm not kidding!).

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/prut

=> "so the original meaning is probably a substance that can produce the sound prut"

...?!

In the Frisian dictionary I use it's clear as "mud" --

broute 3, briouth, brou-t-e, briou-th, afries., Sb.: nhd. Brau, Gebräu, so viel Bier wie man auf einmal braut; ne. brewage; Hw.: s. briū-w-a*; Q.: Schw; E.: s. briū-w-a; L.: Hh 12b, Hh 154, Rh 672a

In deep **** lol because that's where it's all brewing, classic.

[The Puzzler]

I immediately thought of the first one here, when realising that 'bread' was most likely related there.

bread (n.) Old English bread "bit, crumb, morsel; bread," cognate with Old Norse brauð, Danish brød, Old Frisian brad, Middle Dutch brot, Dutch brood, German Brot. According to one theory [Watkins, etc.] from Proto-Germanic *brautham, which would be from the root of brew (v.) and refer to the leavening.

But OED argues at some length for the basic sense being not "cooked food" but "piece of food," and the Old English word deriving from a Proto-Germanic *braudsmon- "fragments, bits" (cognate with Old High German brosma "crumb," Old English breotan "to break in pieces") and being related to the root of break (v.). It cites Slovenian kruh "bread," literally "a piece." http://www.etymonlin....php?term=bread

Edited March 5, 2015 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

There you go. Thanks.

You're welcom.

But I aslo asked if you have anything better, like proving that FO means 'false', using any old language, as long as it isn't (modern) French, lol.

[Abramelin]

<chop>

I agree with Jan, not through bias to the topic but because it seems possible - that Boddhisatva (FOT) does not mean false but FO does.

I even know FO means false, because, like I posted many times, FAUX (pronounced FO) does indeed mean false. I can go on for ever like this.

[Abramelin]

Just for completeness: here the part in Volney's book about FOT/BOUDH :

https://books.google.nl/books?id=0YM-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=volney+ruins+%22fot%22&source=bl&ots=Eb8RNy6czT&sig=2VlPNgUp9byn7i0PM2MHRG4uYig&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=1mP4VLyoLs7JPaa3gbAP&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=volney%20ruins%20%22fot%22&f=false

[Van Gorp]

A lot of nice info.

Concerning 2 topics:

- one of the many interesting mentionnings of a word on which pondering, we can learn more about the words we use daily.

- FO/FOT and his meaning

Concerning VRBRUDA (verbrodden) and the first mentioning of Jan (see below):

[004/04] (Adela's speech)

IK WÉT WEL THÀT J THÉRMITHA ANDA BRVD SITTE

Ottema (1872):

Ik weet wel dat gij daarmede aan den grond zit (aground, stuck)

Sandbach (1876):

I know that you are in a difficulty about it

I can follow the links with brewing, breien, brouwen, mud, sht and more.

There is also this link:

http://mill.arts.kuleuven.be/rewo/Medwvd/wvd12/WVDco122broddelaar.htm

It's about "broddelaar", "nen prutser" as we say, some who has difficulties to get to results or finish something on a whole with succes.

"Voddenvent", and there we come with the connection of "rags" in English (piece of trash).

From the link:

"broddelen komt voor in het zuidoosten van West-Vlaanderen en aangrenzend Zuid-Oost-Vlaanderen in de betekenis 'slordig, waardeloos werk verrichten'. Het is een frequentatief van brodden, dat ook vervat zit in het Nederlandse werkwoord verbrodden, d.i. 'verknoeien, bederven, om zeep helpen'. Aan de oorsprong van brodden ligt waarschijnlijk een zelfstandig naamwoord brodde, dat zoveel betekent als 'lap, slons, vod', vandaar dat brodden in het oudere Nederlands gebruikt werd voor 'lappen, verstellen, een lap in of op een stuk stof zetten'. Maar daarnaast betekende brodden zelf al 'een werk door onhandigheid of slordigheid bederven of verknoeien'. Zowel broddelen als brodden staan in het Zuid-oost-Vlaandersch Idioticon van Teirlinck en in het Westvlaamsch Idioticon van De Bo."

In short, makes the connection with the verb "broddelen" (used also in West and East Flanders) in the meaning of doing sloppy work or even to ruin.

In origine the site is thinking about the word "brodde" (a rag). That's why the verb "brodden" is also used to repare (oplappen).

Now, concerned with the first quote "being in difficulties", I think about the Dutch/Flemish proverb "in de lappenmand zitten", being the same as being in the sht or deep trouble.

Concerning with "bruid" (bride) I was thinking about the little piece of paper (rag) one has to sign in order to get married.

"'t Is maar een vodje van papier" :-)

[Van Gorp]

This sounds like a name that could be compatible with the meaning of Buddha/BODHISAVTA...

Not that Ive really delved into it, but thought Id look for a compatible meaning in Frisian for a term NOT meaning false for Buddha.... since Abe wrote this: " It really doesn't sound likely that they called their spiritual leader "False" and Jan wrote this ""Boddhisatva" does not have to mean "false", for FO or FOT to mean "false" or "fout"."

It never ceases to amaze me how many times the words Im looking for are in it and have appropriate meanings to something Im looking for to match it...

fogid 34, foged, fogeth, foud, fog-id, fog-ed, fog-eth, fou-d, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Vogt, Stellvertreter des Königs, Stellvertreter des Grafen, Kirchenvogt, Kirchenältester, Kirchenvorsteher, Landschöffe, Vertreter des Priesters vor Gericht, Vormund, Vertreter; ne. bailiff, governor, churchwarden, guardian (M.); ÜG.: lat. advocātus

I agree with Jan, not through bias to the topic but because it seems possible - that Boddhisatva (FOT) does not mean false but FO does. (my underline)

I also agree with this view:

Boddhisatva is more likely to be linked with Buda (Buidel), and has his meaning coming from sympathy about the knowledge/treasures Budha carries with him.

If we follow OLB, it is clear that Budha was called Buda by his friends and Fo by the envious priests. It is plain logic in OLB these 2 names have a contractionary meaning.

The biggest step to take when one wants to relate OLB logic to the general knowledge, is one could derive that the meaning of FOT was known by the priests, but not by the common people afterwards who called the person FOT while paying tribute or feeling sympathy for him.

So that is what OLB says: the priests in Kashmir (later to China) talked a language where FO/FOT has the meaning "FALSE", but in time this meaning is lost in the contemporary languages there.

Why does it still has this meaning in French/Dutch/German/English?

[Ott]

... as long as it isn't (modern) French

Why would modern (spoken) French not be similar to the old 'French' of the 6th C. BCE?

And if it was, the Fryas may well have known much of that language.

What FO/FOT meant to the Fryas (perhaps mockingly), may not have been the same as what it meant to the 'Buddhists' of that time.

Also, the concept of reappropriation (geuzennaam in dutch: people using a name proudly, that was originally mocking) or the other way around (a proud name used mockingly by others) is desceribed at least twice in the OLB: with Kàlta and with the Druids.

I don't need to prove that it was possibly like I said, because I don't claim it was certainly so, and you can't prove it was impossible.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Jan Ott

[Ott]

In short, makes the connection with the verb "broddelen" (used also in West and East Flanders) in the meaning of doing sloppy work or even to ruin.

I saw a link to "brothel" (dutch bordeel, french bordel) here, but according to etymology, that comes from borde: farmeres house, wooden cabin

[Ott]

... that the meaning of FOT was known by the priests, but not by the common people afterwards who called the person FOT while paying tribute or feeling sympathy for him.

So that is what OLB says: the priests in Kashmir (later to China) talked a language where FO/FOT has the meaning "FALSE", but in time this meaning is lost in the contemporary languages there.

Why does it still has this meaning in French/Dutch/German/English?

Excellent VG, I totally agree.

Note: fou/ folle in French means mad, wild

OLB: TO, JO has in english become "to you" (same sound, in dutch "oe", german "u"), so FO may have sounded not like "faux", but more like "fou"?) ... Kung Fu?!

Edited March 6, 2015 by Jan Ott

[Ott]

The website of Tresoar, the archive that guards the OLB, www.oeralindaboek.nl, finally has a new functionality for browsing through copies of the original pages: http://images.tresoar.nl/OLB/

The resolution is not very good.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Jan Ott

[flashman7870]

Why would modern (spoken) French not be similar to the old 'French' of the 6th C. BCE?

And if it was, the Fryas may well have known much of that language.

What FO/FOT meant to the Fryas (perhaps mockingly), may not have been the same as what it meant to the 'Buddhists' of that time.

Also, the concept of reappropriation (geuzennaam in dutch: people using a name proudly, that was originally mocking) or the other way around (a proud name used mockingly by others) is desceribed at least twice in the OLB: with Kàlta and with the Druids.

I don't need to prove that it was possibly like I said, because I don't claim it was certainly so, and you can't prove it was impossible.

Because French didn't exist prior to the middle ages. Prior to Roman and Frankish occupation they spoke Gaullish. The word "Faux" which Abe believes Fot derives from itself derives from the Latin Fallaxis- which sounds or looks nothing like Fo. As with Kaddik I suppose it's possible but extremely unlikely that it started off as Fo, when Rome was founded it slowly morphed into Fallaxis, then into Faux, which is astoundingly pronounced the same as the original Fryan.

Also, I would just like to point out that it is impossible to disprove a negative.

[Ott]

Because French didn't exist prior to the middle ages. Prior to Roman and Frankish occupation they spoke Gaullish.

That's why I wrote 'French'.

There's no reason to assume that spoken 'Gaulish' is so much more different from modern French, than Oldfrisian differs from the Dutch-Frisian-Flemmish dialects.

... it is impossible to disprove a negative.

We can't prove each other wrong in this little exchange of thoughts, so I suggest we move on to something more interesting, Abramelin.

[Abramelin]

Because French didn't exist prior to the middle ages. Prior to Roman and Frankish occupation they spoke Gaullish. The word "Faux" which Abe believes Fot derives from itself derives from the Latin Fallaxis- which sounds or looks nothing like Fo. As with Kaddik I suppose it's possible but extremely unlikely that it started off as Fo, when Rome was founded it slowly morphed into Fallaxis, then into Faux, which is astoundingly pronounced the same as the original Fryan.

Also, I would just like to point out that it is impossible to disprove a negative.

I know it's all becoming a bit confusing, but I said that FO is nothing else then a sort of phonetic way of spelling FAUX.

FOT comes into the picture as the real alternative name of Buddha, and used in China/Tibet. And mentioned in Volney's "The Ruins", together with Chris-en and Yes-us (in OLB: Kris-en and Jes-us).

It's too much of a coincidence that C. over de Linden had that book in his possession, the original French edition and a translation into Dutch.

I also said that the creators of the OLB using FO instead of FOT was not a slip of the pen, but a hint. FO/FAUX does indeed mean 'false' in French, a language - like you already said - that didn't even exist around the time the OLB was supposedly put onto paper.

[Abramelin]

Excellent VG, I totally agree.

Note: fou/ folle in French means mad, wild

OLB: TO, JO has in english become "to you" (same sound, in dutch "oe", german "u"), so FO may have sounded not like "faux", but more like "fou"?) ... Kung Fu?!

I am not even going to post a link to a Wiki page about Kung Fu, jeesh. Look it up, and please explain what 'false' has to do with Fu in Kung Fu.

[Ott]

It's too much of a coincidence that C. over de Linden had that book in his possession...

Not at all. He was interested in anything that could confirm what was in his manuscript. How do you know he had it before Ottema made his translation?

I also said that the creators of the OLB using FO instead of FOT was not a slip of the pen, but a hint.

How could you possibly know?

FO/FAUX does indeed mean 'false' in French, a language - like you already said - that didn't even exist around the time the OLB was supposedly put onto paper.

The language did not exist under that name, but was not invented at the moment they started using that name.

I am not ...

We have a different sense of humor.

[flashman7870]

We can't prove each other wrong in this little exchange of thoughts, so I suggest we move on to something more interesting, Abramelin.

If you wish to adress Abramelin please quote his posts.

And we should assume the two languages are so different because they are in totally different Indo-European categories. One is Romance the other is Celtic. And we have surviving Gaulish inscriptions- it looks absolutely nothing like French. French is ultimately just vulgar latin like Italian and Spanish.

I know it's all becoming a bit confusing, but I said that FO is nothing else then a sort of phonetic way of spelling FAUX.

FOT comes into the picture as the real alternative name of Buddha, and used in China/Tibet. And mentioned in Volney's "The Ruins", together with Chris-en and Yes-us (in OLB: Kris-en and Jes-us).

It's too much of a coincidence that C. over de Linden had that book in his possession, the original French edition and a translation into Dutch.

I also said that the creators of the OLB using FO instead of FOT was not a slip of the pen, but a hint. FO/FAUX does indeed mean 'false' in French, a language - like you already said - that didn't even exist around the time the OLB was supposedly put onto paper.

I know. I speak French. I understood what you meant. Edited March 6, 2015 by flashman7870