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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Passing Time

People surely it is not a time waster to discuss these potential translations......there are going to be plenty of words

in the Frisian language that have more than one meaning.

that section from page 73 of the original ... an Egiptalanda ther were en over-prester , hel from agnum , klar from bryn ,

and licht from gast , sin nam were Sekrops .....i would hazard a guess.....

an Egyptian there was lord over the priests , he had healthy eyes, a clear brain , and a light spirit ......both of you may

translate it differently.......what does it matter if en over-prester really means an arch-priest , or hel from agnum means

whole/healthy/clear/light/conceal ????

we are making headway in understanding , and making sense of the book , which hopefully will eventually help us find

outside references to some of the events described , and possibly justify it as a true record , or as a fake ...

unfortunately we dont hear much from Abe recently , VG , and others seem to be on a long sabbatical , or have given up,

if you two fall out , and leave the thread then it will die .....i personally hope that does not happen.....but the constant

bickering and dis-respect between those of you who have spent a lot of time and energy on this thread is so sad seeing

as those of us left ... seem to be of the same opinion that it could be real , and so are working to the same ends .....

please calm down , and help each other guys and gals , or the end of a great thread is approaching fast.

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The Puzzler

I also gave the German fragments to demonstrate how clueless you are.

But I suppose I'd have to translate them too for you, wasting ever more time.

So what, a translator came up with the same as English translation... Does that make it right? Isn't that what you've been questioning the whole way through? I have. I'm always wondering just which side you're actually on.

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The Puzzler

People surely it is not a time waster to discuss these potential translations......there are going to be plenty of words

in the Frisian language that have more than one meaning.

that section from page 73 of the original ... an Egiptalanda ther were en over-prester , hel from agnum , klar from bryn ,

and licht from gast , sin nam were Sekrops .....i would hazard a guess.....

an Egyptian there was lord over the priests , he had healthy eyes, a clear brain , and a light spirit ......both of you may

translate it differently.......what does it matter if en over-prester really means an arch-priest , or hel from agnum means

whole/healthy/clear/light/conceal ????

we are making headway in understanding , and making sense of the book , which hopefully will eventually help us find

outside references to some of the events described , and possibly justify it as a true record , or as a fake ...

unfortunately we dont hear much from Abe recently , VG , and others seem to be on a long sabbatical , or have given up,

if you two fall out , and leave the thread then it will die .....i personally hope that does not happen.....but the constant

bickering and dis-respect between those of you who have spent a lot of time and energy on this thread is so sad seeing

as those of us left ... seem to be of the same opinion that it could be real , and so are working to the same ends .....

please calm down , and help each other guys and gals , or the end of a great thread is approaching fast.

Hello PT,

:tu: I am calm.

That's what I agree it should be, what you said:

hel from agnum , klar from bryn ,

and licht from gast , sin nam were Sekrops .....i would hazard a guess.....

he had healthy eyes, a clear brain , and a light spirit ...

healthy, a word related etymologically to whole

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

It would almost be funny, if it was not such mindwaste for the other readers of this thread (making this topic ever more impopular).

Vppen helle nacht kêmon hja alla.

hela* 3, hel-a*, afries., st. V. (4): nhd. „hehlen“, verhehlen; ne. conceal; Vw.: s. bi-, und-, ur-; Hw.: s. heler, un-hel-a-nde, un-for-hel-en; vgl. ae. helan, anfrk. *helan, as. helan, ahd. helan*; Q.: E, W; E.: germ. *helan, st. V., hehlen, verbergen, verstecken; idg. *k̑el- (4), V., bergen, verhüllen, Pokorny 553; W.: saterl. hela, V., hehlen, verhehlen; L.: Hh 41b, Rh 804a

helle 23, hille, hel-l-e, hil-l-e, afries., st. F. (ō): nhd. Hölle; ne. hell; Hw.: s. hel-isk*; vgl. got. halja, an. hel, ae. hėll, anfrk. hella, as. hėllia*, hėl*, ahd. hella; Q.: E, H, W, R, Jur; E.: germ. *haljō, st. F. (ō), Hölle?; s. idg. *k̑el- (4), V., bergen, verhüllen, Pokorny 553; W.: nfries. helle; W.: saterl. hille; W.: nnordfries. hille, helle, hel; L.: Hh 41b, Rh 814a

http://www.koeblerge...s/afries_h.html

Interpreted as coming under the concealment of night. I don't really see a huge problem with it.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Passing Time

Hello PT,

:tu:

That's what I agree it should be, what you said:

hel from agnum , klar from bryn ,

and licht from gast , sin nam were Sekrops .....i would hazard a guess.....

he had healthy eyes, a clear brain , and a light spirit ...

healthy, a word related etymologically to whole

See the trouble is i dont necessarily agree Puz .....i think hel... can be used for whole/healthy/clear/light/conceal , in the

context hel agnum, klar bryn , licht gast ...he could just as easily have said hel agnum , hel bryn and hel gast , as in the

masonic saying i gave previously in an oath "you should ever hele , conceal and never reveal the secrets of freemasonry"

the OLB author has just used different words ,same as the mason , but could just as easily have just used the one...

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Passing Time

what does the second part of the name mean ?......HEL-lenia , is it a form of lernia ? but even then it could be clear learning/teaching , or concealed learning/teaching , hidden teaching etc.

Edited by Passing Time

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The Puzzler

See the trouble is i dont necessarily agree Puz .....i think hel... can be used for whole/healthy/clear/light/conceal , in the

context hel agnum, klar bryn , licht gast ...he could just as easily have said hel agnum , hel bryn and hel gast , as in the

masonic saying i gave previously in an oath "you should ever hele , conceal and never reveal the secrets of freemasonry"

the OLB author has just used different words ,same as the mason , but could just as easily have just used the one...

You have to define the words roots used by ancient OLB Fryan and Frisian - this is the whole problem with the translation, people adding in Dutch and other languages imo.

He could have but find hel as clear or light in a Frisian dictionary. It's a borrowed word, therefore that decides how I think the usage is in a book such as the OLB.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

what does the second part of the name mean ?......HEL-lenia , is it a form of lernia ? but even then it could be clear learning/teaching , or concealed learning/teaching , hidden teaching etc.

Her name means NY= new HEL = whole (healthy, good) LENJA = lend/lent imo.

learn words invariable have the 'r' in them in variations.

This tonôma was god kêren, hwand tha rêd, thêr hju lênade, was ny aend hel bvppa alle ôtherum.

her name was good because the readings/counsels she lent were new and whole above all others is basically how I'd interpret this

loan (n.) mid-13c., from Old Norse lan, related to lja "to lend," from Proto-Germanic *laikhwniz (cognates: Old Frisian len "thing lent," Middle Dutch lene, Dutch leen "loan, fief," Old High German lehan, German Lehn "fief, feudal tenure"), originally "to let have, to leave (to someone)," from PIE *leikw- "to leave" (see relinquish).

The Norse word also is cognate with Old English læn "gift," which did not survive into Middle English, but its derived verb lænan is the source of lend. As a verb, loan is attested from 1540s, perhaps earlier, and formerly was current, but has now been supplanted in England by lend, though it survives in American English. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=lend&searchmode=none lêna 16, lên-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. leihen, borgen, übertragen (V.), zu Lehen geben; ne. lend, give

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Ott
Vppen helle nacht kêmon hja alla.

hela* 3, hel-a*, afries., st. V. (4): nhd. „hehlen“, verhehlen; ne. conceal; ...

OLB has FORHÉLEN for conceal (verhelen in Dutch):

WÉRIN VSA TO KVMSTE FORHÉLEN HLÉIT

INTWISKA WAS.T IM NAVT FORHÉLAD NE WRDEN

Following your logic, they would have used this word.

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The Puzzler

BI HELLE DÉI

is translated "in broad daylight"

therefore the helle means the same as what I showed helle to mean, above - that is; hela* 3, hel-a*, afries., st. V. (4): nhd. „hehlen“, verhehlen; ne. conceal; Vw.: s. bi-, und-, ur-; Hw.: s. heler, un-hel-a-nde, un-for-hel-en; vgl. ae. helan, anfrk. *helan, as. helan, ahd. helan*; Q.: E, W; E.: germ. *helan, st. V., hehlen, verbergen, verstecken; idg. *k̑el- (4), V., bergen, verhüllen, Pokorny 553; W.: saterl. hela, V., hehlen, verhehlen; L.: Hh 41b, Rh 804a

helle

so looking in Frisian we have an interpretation : hella 1 und häufiger, hel-l-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. hüllen; ne. wrap (V.); Vw.: s. bi-; Hw.: vgl. got. huljan, an. hylja (1), ae. hyllan, as. *hullian?, ahd. hullen*; E.: germ. *huljan, sw. V., hüllen, verhüllen; s. idg. *k̑el- (4), V., bergen, verhüllen, Pokorny 553; L.: Hh 41b, Rh 805b

So, actually it appears to me the term BROAD day is based in daylight engulfing/wrapping the whole sky - it's the word broad that's been used in English so it's not 'bright day' or 'clear day' - so what do you think it is Jan?

BI HELLE DEI = by cover of day - been translated as in broad day - that's the concept I see there.

Gothic hulistr "covering," Old English heolstor "lurking-hole, cave, covering," Gothic huljan "cover over," from cell

Meaning originally, in English, "the daylight hours;" from day

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Ott
i think hel... can be used for whole/healthy/clear/light/conceal , in the

context hel agnum, ...

The expression "helder van ogen" (of clear/ bright eyes) has been and still is common in Dutch (but "healthy" might be acceptable as a liberal, valid intertpretation):

2013 "Ze zag hem geschoren, aangekleed, helder van ogen en klaar voor de nieuwe dag" source

1805 "fiks van leden, zuiver van kleur, en helder van ogen;" source

1726 "ront van ribben, helder van ogen, Fyn en ..." source

1750 "rondt en plat van Aangezigt ,bruinachtig van Vel, zwart en helder van Ogen, plat van Neus" source

etc.

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The Puzzler

OLB has FORHÉLEN for conceal (verhelen in Dutch):

WÉRIN VSA TO KVMSTE FORHÉLEN HLÉIT

INTWISKA WAS.T IM NAVT FORHÉLAD NE WRDEN

Following your logic, they would have used this word.

Both are just variations on the same word imo.

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Passing Time

Her name means NY= new HEL = whole (healthy, good) LENJA = lend/lent imo.

learn words invariable have the 'r' in them in variations.

This tonôma was god kêren, hwand tha rêd, thêr hju lênade, was ny aend hel bvppa alle ôtherum.

her name was good because the readings/counsels she lent were new and whole above all others is basically how I'd interpret this

loan (n.) mid-13c., from Old Norse lan, related to lja "to lend," from Proto-Germanic *laikhwniz (cognates: Old Frisian len "thing lent," Middle Dutch lene, Dutch leen "loan, fief," Old High German lehan, German Lehn "fief, feudal tenure"), originally "to let have, to leave (to someone)," from PIE *leikw- "to leave" (see relinquish).

The Norse word also is cognate with Old English læn "gift," which did not survive into Middle English, but its derived verb lænan is the source of lend. As a verb, loan is attested from 1540s, perhaps earlier, and formerly was current, but has now been supplanted in England by lend, though it survives in American English. http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none lêna 16, lên-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. leihen, borgen, übertragen (V.), zu Lehen geben; ne. lend, give

see new light giver or new clarity giver still make sense in the way the sailors saw her to give her this nickname......i dont think it has to be whole or healthy or concealed but will be one meaning in context of each sentence/statement

Edited by Passing Time

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The Puzzler

see new light giver or new clarity giver still make sense in the way the sailors saw her to give her this nickname......i dont think it has to be whole or healthy or concealed but will be one meaning in context of each sentence/statement

Its not that it doesn't make sense PT - the word hell/helle for light and clarity is not Frisian. That's what no-one seems to be getting. Find it in the Frisian dictionary.

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Ott
Its not that it doesn't make sense PT - the word hell/helle for light and clarity is not Frisian. That's what no-one seems to be getting. Find it in the Frisian dictionary.

When interpreting the OLB, one cannot rely on Oldfrisian dictionaries exclusively.

Sometimes Oldgerman, Oldnorse, Olddutch etc. (which are not all that different anyway) come to help to make more sense of it.

Sometimes one can only translate by considering the context.

Whe have had dozens of other examples of this.

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The Puzzler

When interpreting the OLB, one cannot rely on Oldfrisian dictionaries exclusively.

Sometimes Oldgerman, Oldnorse, Olddutch etc. (which are not all that different anyway) come to help to make more sense of it.

Sometimes one can only translate by considering the context.

Whe have had dozens of other examples of this.

Not exclusively, however if the word is in it, Id use it. Some words aren't in it and I can go OK and consider other alternatives.

Back a few posts in #6085 I asked you what your translation of BI HELLE DEI was after I gave mine, which you asked for. Its interpreted BY BROAD DAYLIGHT not by bright daylight or by bright of day or clear day but broad daylight. So, why not put bright or clear? imo it's because the words are actually the same ilk as HELLE NACHT and neither mean bright dei or bright night or clear day or clear night but they do mean a covered (Frisian HELLE/wrap-conceal) sky of night or day respectively - meaning full day - broad daylight and same with night ie; the cover of night, complete night

It's not all that hard to get to FULL from HELLE and also that it means WHOLE once in a full context - but that's out of the whole PIE language rules so I won't go there...

I have all the way through attempted to use words in Frisian against given words here, but you and Abe and others are seemingly insistent on using Dutch or French borrowed words in many instances, such as this example for one - when they could actually be a more Fryan/Frisian word if looked at differently or in another context, which is the reason I'm here, to show that the language of the OLB is what it says it is.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Ott
... I asked you what your translation of BI HELLE DEI was ... HELLE NACHT

Sandbach is a translation of Ottema's translation, not of the original text.

Like Ottema, I would translate as "heldere dag" en "heldere nacht", still common expressions in Dutch, meaning clear in the sense of cloudless.

you and Abe and others are seemingly insistent on using Dutch or French borrowed words in many instances, such as this example for one...

I didn't use any French borrowed word.

And Dutch is just a variety of 'new Fryan', like German, Norse, Frisian, etc.

No coincidence that it is spoken in the same area as where the OLB describes as being the Fryan main homelands (Texland, West-Flyland etc.)

Edited by Jan Ott
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Passing Time

This from the Historia Trium Regum ..P96.

aptirward hit happed ther was a schepherde in that contrey that kept schepe , the wich had so grete infirmite , and so grete dissese that ther myzt no leche hele hym, and alle the goode that he hade he gaf to divers lechys to be hole, but thys myzt not be.

afterwards it happened there was a shepherd in that country that kept sheep, he had such an infirmity, and so great a disease that there might be no leech that could heal him , and all the goods he had ,

he gave to diverse leechers to be whole , but it was not to be .

to be healed , and to be whole seem to have the same meaning.

then makes you think....to be whole ,to be hele, to be hole ,to be healed and to be holy all the same ?

Edited by Passing Time

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The Puzzler

This from the Historia Trium Regum ..P96.

aptirward hit happed ther was a schepherde in that contrey that kept schepe , the wich had so grete infirmite , and so grete dissese that ther myzt no leche hele hym, and alle the goode that he hade he gaf to divers lechys to be hole, but thys myzt not be.

afterwards it happened there was a shepherd in that country that kept sheep, he had such an infirmity, and so great a disease that there might be no leech that could heal him , and all the goods he had ,

he gave to diverse leechers to be whole , but it was not to be .

to be healed , and to be whole seem to have the same meaning.

then makes you think....to be whole ,to be hele, to be hole ,to be healed and to be holy all the same ?

All these words are the same root:

whole (adj.) Old English hal "entire, whole; unhurt, uninjured, safe; healthy, sound; genuine, straightforward," from Proto-Germanic *haila- "undamaged" (cognates: Old Saxon hel, Old Norse heill, Old Frisian hal, Middle Dutch hiel, Dutch heel, Old High German, German heil "salvation, welfare"), from PIE *kailo- "whole, uninjured, of good omen" (cognates: Old Church Slavonic celu "whole, complete;" see health).

heal (v.) Old English hælan "cure; save; make whole, sound and well," from Proto-Germanic *hailjan (cognates: Old Saxon helian, Old Norse heila, Old Frisian hela, Dutch helen, German heilen, Gothic ga-hailjan "to heal, cure"), literally "to make whole" (see health). Related: Healed; healing.

healer (n.) late Old English, "one who heals," especially "savior, Jesus," agent noun from heal (v.). As "a curative medicine" from late 14c.

healing (n.) "restoration to health," Old English hæling; see heal. Figurative sense of "restoration of wholeness" is from early 13c.; meaning "touch that cures" is from 1670s.

health (n.) Old English hælþ "wholeness, a being whole, sound or well," from Proto-Germanic *hailitho, from PIE *kailo- "whole, uninjured, of good omen" (cognates: Old English hal "hale, whole;" Old Norse heill "healthy;" Old English halig, Old Norse helge "holy, sacred;" Old English hælan "to heal"). With Proto-Germanic abstract noun suffix *-itho (see -th (2)). Of physical health in Middle English, but also "prosperity, happiness, welfare; preservation, safety."

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

PIE *kailo

hole is from PIE *kel (cover/conceal)

However, that's not to say I think the PIE system is totally correct but one has to stick to some sort of paradigm throughout this.

Edited by The Puzzler

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SSilhouette

People surely it is not a time waster to discuss these potential translations......there are going to be plenty of words

in the Frisian language that have more than one meaning.

that section from page 73 of the original ... an Egiptalanda ther were en over-prester , hel from agnum , klar from bryn ,

and licht from gast , sin nam were Sekrops .....i would hazard a guess.....

an Egyptian there was lord over the priests , he had healthy eyes, a clear brain , and a light spirit ......both of you may

translate it differently.......what does it matter if en over-prester really means an arch-priest , or hel from agnum means

whole/healthy/clear/light/conceal ????

we are making headway in understanding , and making sense of the book , which hopefully will eventually help us find

outside references to some of the events described , and possibly justify it as a true record , or as a fake ...

unfortunately we dont hear much from Abe recently , VG , and others seem to be on a long sabbatical , or have given up,

if you two fall out , and leave the thread then it will die .....i personally hope that does not happen.....but the constant

bickering and dis-respect between those of you who have spent a lot of time and energy on this thread is so sad seeing

as those of us left ... seem to be of the same opinion that it could be real , and so are working to the same ends .....

please calm down , and help each other guys and gals , or the end of a great thread is approaching fast.

Maybe a new topic of interest for all would be good. You can always start a new thread later. I'm sure Abe would approve of that.

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Ott

The focus has been much on the language of the OLB in general and on individual words and their etymologies.

Also, we have explored archaeological material and other sources about the same area.

And I have translated texts about the OLB from Dutch and German into English.

Now I would like to discuss more the acual content and philosophy of the OLB.

Recently I made a fresh start on my blog:

Much rather than the concept of race (
), the question of right and wrong, just and unjust plays a main role in the OLB, in my opinion. This post is a first exploration in that direction.

[...]

justitiacrop.jpeg

This morning I thought of the first two pages, the copyist letters by (1) Hidde and (2) Liko 'Oera Linda' (Over de Linden).

They both describe a problem and a solution.

1. the information carrier does not last (paper decays in wet climate) ==> keep making copies

2. the information is sensitive and agents of a conflicting, dominant belief system will want to destroy it (Christian monks) ==> hide and protect it carefully

This is an example of how the various texts can be analysed.

The part that follows, with Adela's plea, contains some interesting themes, leading to the conclusion to collect various texts into what became the OLB.

What are these themes and how do they relate to our times?

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The Puzzler

Sorry Mr Ott, the dog ate my homework.

I'm more interested in the new archaeological discoveries being found that might help verify some of the seemingly unknown contacts all throughout Europe, from the North West, linking cultures such as Rhine Bell Beaker and Hilversum, with Atlantic contacts to Britain, from Spain, all up the Portugese and Brittany coasts, it all makes more and more sense as these discoveries are being made, which is interesting to keep abreast of. I started this thread and it highlights much of the huge trade network that existed prior to 1550BC.

Europe Bronze Age Hall and Royal Burial Found Bronze Age Spain

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=280633

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Ott
the dog ate my homework.

didn't expect much from you

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The Puzzler

didn't expect much from you

Good, it's not such a disappointment then.

Don't worry, the philosophy of it all is not lost on me...

Edited by The Puzzler

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Saru

Once again due to the size this thread has reached we're experiencing some forum performance issues so this one will be closed and a continuation of the discussion has been created here - Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood (Part 3).

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