Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #651 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Surrounded by dykes, is probably why they are called waards. Provide an etymology for your Dutch word then. http://geerts.com/do...sabethflood.htm Note in that article it says waards are low lying areas WITH DYKES AROUND. That is the key you are missing. IT KEPT OUT THE SEA. Back to weren, to keep out. I know more than you give me credit for. You use some ordinary site that finally confirms what you think, I use an official etymology site: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...b=ONW&id=ID5039 Etymologie: Cognaten: Oudhoogduits warid, werid, Nieuwhoogduits wert, Oudengels warod, werod, Oudfries wārd ‘buitendijks land’. 1. Waard, door water omgeven stuk land, riviereiland The underlined part says: Old Frisian:wārd, land OUTSIDE a dike (= NOT protected by dikes). Then: 1. Waard, land surrounded by water, river island. . Edited June 29, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #652 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Otharus posted a couple of placenames: Britswerd - Britswert Burgwerd - Burgwert Cornwerd - Koarnwert Hartwerd - Hartwert Jorwerd - Jorwert Kimswerd - Kimswert Leeuwarden - Ljouwert Rewerd - Rewert Tjerkwerd - Tsjerkwert Wieuwerd - Wiuwert But the ending -wert has nothing to do with a 'waard', but with 'wierd' or ''terp', and artificial mound. And the word 'wierd' was once a very common word all over the Netherlands. All the places Otharus mentioned were build on wierds or terps. http://nl.wikipedia....ki/-werd_/-ward . Edited June 29, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #653 Share Posted June 29, 2012 You use some ordinary site that finally confirms what you think, I use an official etymology site: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...b=ONW&id=ID5039 Etymologie: Cognaten: Oudhoogduits warid, werid, Nieuwhoogduits wert, Oudengels warod, werod, Oudfries wārd ‘buitendijks land’. 1. Waard, door water omgeven stuk land, riviereiland The underlined part says: Old Frisian:wārd, land OUTSIDE a dike (= NOT protected by dikes). Then: 1. Waard, land surrounded by water, river island. . What the hell do you think I used in Post #648? I had to go further because you won't accept the OFFICIAL etymology. The land surrounded by water or the wall is the protected area. I'm over ward, yeah translate WRDE with quarter, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #654 Share Posted June 29, 2012 There is a place to the east of where I live and it's called "Woerden": 1 De naam Woerden is afgeleid van het oud-Germaanse woord wyrda, dat ‘verhoging in een rivierengebied’ betekent. 1 The name Woerden is derived from an old Germanic word 'wyrda' which means an elevated place in a river area. http://www.holandalatina.com/Activos/groene_hart.pdf The Wikipage about Woerden says: Liudger reports that Boniface preached in Wyrda, referring to Wierde, meaning that the place was on higher ground in the area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woerden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #655 Share Posted June 29, 2012 What the hell do you think I used in Post #648? I had to go further because you won't accept the OFFICIAL etymology. The land surrounded by water or the wall is the protected area. I'm over ward, yeah translate WRDE with quarter, whatever. It has nothing to do with protection or dikes, it is just an elevated area, above river level. It's either artificial or natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #656 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) There is a place to the east of where I live and it's called "Woerden": 1 De naam Woerden is afgeleid van het oud-Germaanse woord wyrda, dat ‘verhoging in een rivierengebied’ betekent. 1 The name Woerden is derived from an old Germanic word 'wyrda' which means an elevated place in a river area. http://www.holandala...groene_hart.pdf The Wikipage about Woerden says: Liudger reports that Boniface preached in Wyrda, referring to Wierde, meaning that the place was on higher ground in the area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woerden Yes, obviously. waard ? (plural waarden, diminutive waardje) A holm, holme, area surrounded by rivers A type of foreland, outside a local system of dikes A dwelling mound See Post #648 Edited June 29, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #657 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Yes, obviously. waard ? (plural waarden, diminutive waardje) A holm, holme, area surrounded by rivers A type of foreland, outside a local system of dikes A dwelling mound See Post #648 OUTSIDE a local system of dikes. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #658 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) So we have 'waard' which is an area that is just above river level during summer, an area lying next to a river or surrounded by rivers, and we have a 'wierde' which is an elevated area or a mound if you like. . Edited June 29, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #659 Share Posted June 29, 2012 So we have 'waard' which is an area that is just above river level during summer, an area lying next to a river or surrounded by rivers, and we have a 'wierde' which is an elevated area or a mound if you like. . OUTSIDE a local system of dikes. Thank you. Yes, inside, outside, no matter, whatever is protected by a wall of something, water, stones, rock, whatever - it's a concept more than a certain word. The root for the etymology is keeper. The mound, it's renown for being the place of the birth of nearly every myth, it's the area of protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #660 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) The reason I said you don't know what you are quoting is because you throw in lots of unrelated stuff. Look at this (from that same post): Waard is connected to ward and the areas were actually protected, a kind of protection area to live. waard m. (plural waarden, diminutive waardje) 1.An innkeeper, publican 2.A landlord, host 3.(obsolete) The master of the household; a husband 4.(obsolete) A protector, lord = weert Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary Jump to: navigation, search [edit] Dutch [edit] Pronunciation ■Rhymes: -eːrt [edit] Verb weert 1.second- and third-person singular present indicative of weren. 2.plural imperative of weren. In what way has a 'waard', a low lying area near a river that gets flooded when the river level rises, anything to do with 'protection'? . Edited June 29, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #661 Share Posted June 29, 2012 So we have 'waard' which is an area that is just above river level during summer, an area lying next to a river or surrounded by rivers, and we have a 'wierde' which is an elevated area or a mound if you like. . Do you have weirs there? weir O.E. wer "dam, fence, enclosure," especially one for catching fish (related to werian "dam up"), from P.Gmc. *warjanan (cf. O.N. ver, O.Fris., M.Du. were, Du. weer, O.H.G. wari, Ger. Wehr "defense, protection," Goth. warjan "to defend, protect"), from PIE *wer- "to cover, shut" (cf. Skt. vatah "enclosure," http://dictionary.reference.com/etymology/weir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #662 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Yes, inside, outside, no matter, whatever is protected by a wall of something, water, stones, rock, whatever - it's a concept more than a certain word. The root for the etymology is keeper. The mound, it's renown for being the place of the birth of nearly every myth, it's the area of protection. That is what I keep saying : it is a NON PROTECTED area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #663 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Do you have weirs there? weir O.E. wer "dam, fence, enclosure," especially one for catching fish (related to werian "dam up"), from P.Gmc. *warjanan (cf. O.N. ver, O.Fris., M.Du. were, Du. weer, O.H.G. wari, Ger. Wehr "defense, protection," Goth. warjan "to defend, protect"), from PIE *wer- "to cover, shut" (cf. Skt. vatah "enclosure," http://dictionary.re.../etymology/weir Yeah, but the word we are discussing is Linda-wrda. Wrd is singular So it's either 'waard' or 'wierd' or Ottema's 'oord'. . Edited June 29, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #664 Share Posted June 29, 2012 The reason I said you don't know what you are quoting is because you throw in lots of unrelated stuff. Look at this (from that same post): Waard is connected to ward and the areas were actually protected, a kind of protection area to live. waard m. (plural waarden, diminutive waardje) 1.An innkeeper, publican 2.A landlord, host 3.(obsolete) The master of the household; a husband 4.(obsolete) A protector, lord = weert Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary Jump to: navigation, search [edit] Dutch [edit] Pronunciation ■Rhymes: -eːrt [edit] Verb weert 1.second- and third-person singular present indicative of weren. 2.plural imperative of weren. In what way has a 'waard', a low lying area near a river that gets flooded when the river level rises, anything to do with 'protection'? . Show me the root word of your so-called different variation of waard and I might consider what you are saying. The root is weren-to keep - that has many connotations, not just one - the word has spread in meaning, like many other words, depending on whose using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #665 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Yeah, but the word we are discussing is Linda-wrda. So it's either 'waard' or 'wierd' or Ottema's 'oord'. . It's ward. Or in Frisian, wardia. war-d-ia 5, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. warten, wahrnehmen, beachten, sorgen, für; ne. care (V.), keep (V.), watch (V.); Hw.: vgl. got. *wardæn, an. varOEa (3), ae. weardian, ahd. *wartæn?; Q.: H, B, E; E.: germ. *wardæn, sw. V., warten, beachten; idg. *øer- (8), V., gewahren, achtgeben, Pokorny 1164; L.: Hh 124a, Hh 180, Rh 1125b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #666 Share Posted June 29, 2012 That is what I keep saying : it is a NON PROTECTED area. It's protected really, even if it seems unprotected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #667 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Show me the root word of your so-called different variation of waard and I might consider what you are saying. The root is weren-to keep - that has many connotations, not just one - the word has spread in meaning, like many other words, depending on whose using it. Ohd. warid, werid ‘eiland’ (nhd. Wert); oe. waroþ ‘kust, oever’; < pgm. *wariþa-, *waruþa-. Daarnaast de afleidingen mnd. weder en mhd. werder (nhd. Werder ‘eiland in een rivier; uiterwaard’). Herkomst onzeker. Gewoonlijk beschouwd als afleiding van een woord voor ‘water’, dat voorkomt als oe. wær ‘zee’ en on. vari ‘vocht, water’. Misschien < pie. *ueh1r- en verwant met Sanskrit vār ‘water’ enz Old High German warid, werid 'island' (New High German wert); Old English waroþ ‘coast, shore, bank’; < pgm. *wariþa-, *waruþa-. Also the derivations Middle Dutch weder and Middle High German werder (New High German 'island in a river; 'uiterwaard'=flood plain). Origin unsure. Commonly considered to be a derivation of a word for 'water', which shows up as Old English wær 'sea'and Old Norse vari 'moisture, water'. Maybe < pie. *ueh1r - and related to Sanskrit vār ‘water’ etc. http://www.etymologi...refwoord/waard2 http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...b=ONW&id=ID5039 . Edited June 29, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #668 Share Posted June 29, 2012 It's protected really, even if it seems unprotected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #669 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) OK, good, thanks. What do you think an island is? A protected mound. ei land will be weir land basically. Edited June 29, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #670 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Do walls keep ones in or keep ones out? It's a mute point imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #671 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Do walls keep ones in or keep ones out? It's a mute point imo. What walls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #672 Share Posted June 29, 2012 What walls? The wards (walls) of the castles. Elaborate concentric defences. Walls of anything really, walls in general are just wards. Like in a hospital ward, a sectioned off (by walls) area. In fortifications, a bailey or ward refers to a courtyard enclosed by a curtain wall. In particular, an early type of European castle was known as a Motte-and-bailey. Castles can have more than one ward. Their layout depends both on the local topography and the level of fortification technology employed, ranging from simple enclosures to elaborate concentric defences. In addition to the gradual evolution of more complex castle plans, there are also significant differences in regional traditions of military architecture regarding the subdivision into wards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_(fortification) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #673 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) OK, good, thanks. What do you think an island is? A protected mound. ei land will be weir land basically. As you can see, the root has very probably everything to do with 'water', which seems no surprise to me. An island is no protected mound, it's a place with a higher elavation relative to the water level. All of the 'waarden' and islands here are places flat as pancakes. You should have lived in my country, ages ago: many thousands have drowned on those 'protected mounds'. Later they build dikes to be actually protected against the water. If I reason like you do, than 'land' in general is word derived from something to do with protection. How about mountain? Or hill? . Edited June 29, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #674 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) As you can see, the root has very probably everything to do with 'water', which seems no surprise to me. An island is no protected mound. You should have lived in my country, ages ago: many thousands have drowned on those 'protected mounds'. Later they build dikes to be actually protected against the water. If I reason like you do, than 'land' in general is word derived from something to do with protection. How about mountain? Or hill? The Fryans expected the mound to provide eternal protection for the Tex. At least while the earth shall be the earth... Obedient children! When they came to themselves again, they made this high mound and built this citadel upon it, and on the walls they wrote the Tex, and that every one should be able to find it they called the land about it Texland. Therefore it shall remain as long as the earth shall be the earth. Edited June 29, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 29, 2012 Author #675 Share Posted June 29, 2012 OK, good, thanks. What do you think an island is? A protected mound. ei land will be weir land basically. No, ei land is basically 'ahwo land', or 'waterland' or land surrounded by water. http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/eiland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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