Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[cormac mac airt]

Where is your archaeological evidence for this language? Do you have proof it existed?

Do you understand what being a "proto" language means?

1) it's "reconstructed" from what are believed to be the earliest words/root-words of a given language group, meaning that it's an educated guess on the part of professional linguists.

2) It predates all languages under it.

Give me a good answer to either of these questions and I might take your post more seriously cormac.

Give me a good reason to believe that you are more knowledgeable than a professional linguist, so as to be able to put a descendant language or any part thereof before it's own parent and I might take you seriously. You're not talking about two contemporary languages here, even if you disavow proto-Germanic and have to go to the next in line - Germanic - as it still predates Frisian.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I don't find it that ridiculous and the more I look the less ridiculous it seems...

The Nordwestblock (English: "North-West Block"), is a hypothetical cultural region, that several 20th century scholars propose as a prehistoric culture, thought to be roughly bounded by the rivers Meuse, Elbe, Somme and Oise (the present-day Netherlands, Belgium, northern France and western Germany) and possibly the eastern part of England during the Bronze and Iron Ages (3rd to 1st millennia BC, up to the gradual onset of historical sources from the 1st century).

The term itself Nordwestblock was coined by the German linguist, Hans Kuhn,^[3] who considered the inhabitants of this area neither Germanic nor Celtic, thus attributing to the people a distinct ethnicity or culture. According to Kuhn and his followers, the region was Germanised from the beginning of the Common Era, at the latest.

Kuhn noted that since Proto-Indo-European (PIE) /b/ was very rare, and since this PIE /b/, via Grimm's law, is the only source of regularly inherited /p/'s in words in Germanic languages, the many words with /p/'s which do occur must have some other language as source. Similarly, in Celtic, PIE /p/ disappeared and in regularly inherited words only reappeared in p-Celtic languages as a result of the rule that PIE *kʷ became proto-Celtic *p. All this taken together means that any word in p- in a Germanic language which is not evidently borrowed from either Latin or a p-Celtic language must be a loan from another language, and these words Kuhn ascribes to the Nordwestblock language.

Linguist Peter Schrijver speculates on the reminiscent lexical and typological features of the region, from an unknown substrate whose linguistic influences may have influenced the historical development of the (Romance and Germanic) languages of the region. He assumes the pre-existence of pre-Indo-European languages linked to the archeological Linear Pottery culture and to a family of languages featuring complex verbs, of which the Northwest Caucasian languages might have been the sole survivors. Although assumed to have left traces within all other Indo-European languages as well, its influence would have been especially strong on Celtic languages originating north of the Alps and on the region including Belgium and the Rhineland.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Nordwestblock

I admit I don't know the right answers yet, which language came first etc, and am not stating facts or claiming my knowledge on the subject is better than professionals, nor are my posts my own views sometimes, but I'm putting out there a case for a language, like a lawyer, not because I have a personal attachment or opinion all the time, a language as said in the OLB, as being a possibility, on factors such as the above theories and recognition of meanings and changes in the words, comparing different etymologies and learning what word is related to what, I have more knowledge on the subject than 6 months ago I can tell you that though. It's all part of investigating the possibilities, if this can be totally disproven, then case is closed, but for the moment, I think it's definitely still open.

Edited October 18, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Do you understand what being a "proto" language means?

1) it's "reconstructed" from what are believed to be the earliest words/root-words of a given language group, meaning that it's an educated guess on the part of professional linguists.

2) It predates all languages under it.

Give me a good reason to believe that you are more knowledgeable than a professional linguist, so as to be able to put a descendant language or any part thereof before it's own parent and I might take you seriously. You're not talking about two contemporary languages here, even if you disavow proto-Germanic and have to go to the next in line - Germanic - as it still predates Frisian.

cormac

I gave you my answer just now but I must say, without archaeological evidence for this reconstructed proto language they call PIE, imo, it's like Atlantis, which I can reconstruct pretty well too, it 'might' have existed, maybe Fryan/OLB 'might' have existed.

You are the first one to jump onto the "where's the archaeological evidence for it?" bandwagon, so where is it? Oh, it doesn't exist, OK.

I don't want to banter on all day about it though, how much I don't know, it gets on my nerves.

[cormac mac airt]

So you're ignoring a hypothetical language (proto-Germanic) in favor of a hypothetical culture (Nordwestblock) that's left no evidence of an actual language, and all well after Indo-European had started to enter Europe. That's kind of a razor-thin argument IMO.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

I gave you my answer just now but I must say, without archaeological evidence for this reconstructed proto language they call PIE, imo, it's like Atlantis, which I can reconstruct pretty well too, it 'might' have existed, maybe Fryan/OLB 'might' have existed.

You are the first one to jump onto the "where's the archaeological evidence for it?" bandwagon, so where is it? Oh, it doesn't exist, OK.

I don't want to banter on all day about it though, how much I don't know, it gets on my nerves.

It doesn't matter whether or not proto-Germanic actually exists as you're still being anachronistic with the available linguistic evidence.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

So you're ignoring a hypothetical language (proto-Germanic) in favor of a hypothetical culture (Nordwestblock) that's left no evidence of an actual language, and all well after Indo-European had started to enter Europe. That's kind of a razor-thin argument IMO.

cormac

Because that area is exactly where Fryans were, the area they describe as the core of this unknown language is exactly where Fryans were, the OLB tells us all the story about these people and the language is right there in the book, to see that the people who did live here, could have had this OLB Fryan language that is now unknown, but holds the clues to words that spread to other languages.

So, to me, this seems a valid case to check out as a possible predecessor of Germanic languages. I'd elaborate more but I'm out of time here for now.

[cormac mac airt]

Because that area is exactly where Fryans were, the area they describe as the core of this unknown language is exactly where Fryans were, the OLB tells us all the story about these people and the language is right there in the book, to see that the people who did live here, could have had this OLB Fryan language that is now unknown, but holds the clues to words that spread to other languages.

So, to me, this seems a valid case to check out as a possible predecessor of Germanic languages. I'd elaborate more but I'm out of time here for now.

You can't use a book (the OLB) to validate a language that is unknown, which is what it sounds like you're attempting to do. And the Fryans/Frisians were there at what timeframe? Because there's no evidence of the original point from the first OLB thread, namely c.2200 BC.

cormac

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 17 October 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

What are your "almost literal quotes"?

The ones I posted.

Your google-method does not help here.

I am most sure that you never posted any OLB-quote that is an almost literal translation from any source.

It would have been an important argument, we would have discussed it, we would be able to easily find it back.

You are losing the debate, mate.

[Otharus]

The 7th or 8th century language was a lot different from the 12th century language.

We only have a few written sources and they are not consistent.

The oral language will have had many varieties, as it still has.

But there is no reason to believed that it changed much in a few centuries, as common people tend to raise families with partners that speak the same language/ dialect.

There is a difference of 4/5 centuries.

Conclusion?

[Otharus]

People - the regulars - think they can rekindle old discussions, just for the heck of it.

No, we were asked to summarize - a good question.

That is what I try to do.

Before you leave, just give us your three best arguments for your conclusion that OLB must be a 19th century hoax.

Or finally admit that there are reasons to have doubts.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

From Proto-Germanic *aldran, whence also Old English ealdor, Old Norse aldr.

...

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/altar

On Wiktionary:

Etymology

From Latin altare (“altar”), probably related to adolere (“burn”); thus "burning place", influenced by a false connection with altus (“high”).

"Probably" means there is space for doubt.

äldre - Swedish (senior, older)

alt - German

ald - Frisian

old - English

oud - Dutch

That "altar" would have an etymological connection to "alt" / "ald" (old) is not a strange idea at all, IMO.

Thanks for re-posting the link about the NW-block, Puzzler.

Much homework to do...

Edited October 18, 2012 by Otharus

[The Puzzler]

You can't use a book (the OLB) to validate a language that is unknown, which is what it sounds like you're attempting to do. And the Fryans/Frisians were there at what timeframe? Because there's no evidence of the original point from the first OLB thread, namely c.2200 BC.

cormac

This timeframe: The archeological case for the Nordwestgroup hypothesis makes reference to a time depth of up to 3000 BC. The following prehistoric cultures have been attributed to the region, compatible with but not necessarily proving the Nordwestblock hypothesis: the Bell Beaker culture is thought to originate from the same geographic area, as early stages of this culture apparently derived from early Corded Ware culture elements, with the Netherlands/Rhineland region as probably the most widely accepted site of origin (J. P. Mallory, EIEC p. 53).

The Bell Beaker cultures (2700–2100) locally developed into the Bronze Age Barbed Wire Beakers culture (2100-1800). In the second millennium BC, the region is at the boundary between the Atlantic and Nordic horizons, split up in a northern and a southern region, roughly divided by the course of the Rhine. To the north emerged the Elp culture (1800-800), featuring an initial tumulus phase showing a close relationship to other Northern European tumulus groups (sharing pottery of low quality: "Kummerkeramik"), and a subsequent smooth local transformation to the Urnfield culture (1200-800). The southern region became dominated by the Hilversum culture (1800-800), which apparently inherited the previous Barbed Wire Beakers cultural ties with Britain. From 800 BC onwards, the area was influenced by the Hallstatt culture. The current view in the Netherlands holds that subsequent Iron Age innovations did not involve substantial Celtic intrusions and featured a local development from Bronze Age culture.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Nordwestblock

-----------------------------------

I'm feeling lazy tonight so I'm just going to cut and paste some more, for interest's sake, because it aligns to who would have been Fryans of the time frame c. 2000BC - unfortunately Barbed Wire Culture has no Wiki page, neither does the Hoogkarspel culture, so I'll have to look elsewhere for info on them, but they as West Frieslanders would have certainly been Fryans.

Part of the "Nordwestblock", it is situated to the north and east of the Rhine and the IJssel (named after the village of Elp at

52°53′N 6°39′E), bordering the Hilversum culture to the south and the Hoogkarspel culture in West Friesland that, together with Elp, all derive from the Barbed Wire Beakers culture (2100 BC - 1800 BC) and, forming a culture complex at the boundary between the Atlantic and the Nordic horizons.

First the dead were buried in shallow pits and covered by a low barrow. At the end of the Bronze Age they were cremated and the urns were gathered in low barrows. Family burials occurred only in the later stages.

The culture is known for featuring the longhouse, housing people and animals in one and the same building. This construction shows an exceptional local continuity until the twentieth century, still being the normal type of farm in the lowlands of north-western Europe and the Netherlands. The local tradition of concentrating on raising cattle was persisted by the Saxons and the Frisians, whose houses were perched on the natural hillocks in the moist planes, while all other Germanic people practiced sedentary agriculture.[2] Going back to the roots of this tradition, it is generally assumed that its origins lay somewhere in the Bronze Age, between 1800 and 1500 BC. Probably this change was contemporary to a transition from the two-aisled to the three-aisled farm as early as 1800 BC. This development bears comparison with what we know from Scandinavia, where the three-aisled house also develops at the same time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elp_culture

Edited October 18, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

alda

North Frisian

Article

da

1. the (plural)
   

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/da

[The Puzzler]

^{From the North Frisian languages, these 3 seem to have the same/similar words used in the OLB for father and mother... tâta and mam}

^{Wiedingharder Frisian täätemäämbroorKarrharde Frisian mämbrauderBökingharde Frisian taatjemam}

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Frisian_language}

[cormac mac airt]

This timeframe: The archeological case for the Nordwestgroup hypothesis makes reference to a time depth of up to 3000 BC. The following prehistoric cultures have been attributed to the region, compatible with but not necessarily proving the Nordwestblock hypothesis: the Bell Beaker culture is thought to originate from the same geographic area, as early stages of this culture apparently derived from early Corded Ware culture elements, with the Netherlands/Rhineland region as probably the most widely accepted site of origin (J. P. Mallory, EIEC p. 53).

~SNIP~

Then you're going to have a hell of a time rationalizing this against the fact that the Y Chromosome genetic tests on 2 skeletal remains found in Kromsdorf, Germany from the Bell Beaker period were Haplogroup R1b which we know migrated into the northern Mediterranean and Central Europe after c.7000 BC and can, in no way, be shown to validate the OLB's story of peoples invading Frisia/coming from India/etc. These remains dated to c.2600 - 2500 BC.

Source for informaiton on Kromsdorf finds: Emerging Genetic Patterns of the European Neolithic: Perspectives From a Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Burial Site in Germany (2012)

cormac

[Otharus]

... genetic tests on 2 skeletal remains found in Kromsdorf, Germany.

[...]

These remains dated to c.2600 - 2500 BC.

Kromsdorf is here:

Rhineland is here:

A sample of 2!

How representative is that?

According to the OLB, the Frya's burned their corpses and buried the ashes.

And OLB hardly says anything substantial about the time before the big flood (supposedly ca. 2200 BCE).

[cormac mac airt]

Kromsdorf is here:

Rhineland is here:

A sample of 2!

How representative is that?

According to the OLB, the Frya's burned their corpses and buried the ashes.

And OLB hardly says anything substantial about the time before the big flood (supposedly ca. 2200 BCE).

It's the only representative Y Chromosome DNA evidence related to the Bell Beaker Culture.

Which effectively nullifies Puzzlers speculation that the Fryans can be associated with the Bell Beaker culture, as they don't appear to have burned their corpses and buried their ashes.

cormac

[Otharus]

It's the only representative Y Chromosome DNA evidence related to the Bell Beaker Culture.

Related how?

Because found in the same area?

Does that mean they were BB users?

Which effectively nullifies Puzzlers speculation...

Why? The whole Bell Beaker model must be speculation.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 17 October 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

What are your "almost literal quotes"?

Your google-method does not help here.

I am most sure that you never posted any OLB-quote that is an almost literal translation from any source.

It would have been an important argument, we would have discussed it, we would be able to easily find it back.

You are losing the debate, mate.

OK, I meant those names in Volney's book: Chris-en (OLB 'Kris-en'), Yes-us (OLB Jes-us), and Fot.

I haven't seen these names in one single paragraph together in any other book then the OLB and Volney's 'The Ruines'.

And I am not losing anything, I am just getting tired of it all. No, not because of you, or Puzz, or Van Gorp, or Cormac, or whoever here on UM.

I have had a great time discussing with you all, here, or in any thread on UM.

In fact it was a great way for me to avoid dealing with the really important issues in my life. If I had been as fanatic with dealing with these issues as I have been discussing the OLB, I would probably not have sunk this deep into the quagmire I call my life. If you were able to read my mind for the last couple of weeks, I think you'd be scared or at least somewhat worried...

So if you think I have backed out because I 'lost' the discussion, fine with me.

For me this whole thing will be finally settled by archeology or some old document, like some letter from Halbertsma where he confesses he was one of the people who created the OLB, or an archeological discovery of an OLB citadel or another MS using OLB script and radiocarbon dated at let's say 300 AD.

.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

Related how?

Because found in the same area?

Does that mean they were BB users?

Why? The whole Bell Beaker model must be speculation.

Remains were found in the same area, same timeframe as the Bell Beaker Culture and with the same pottery representative of the Bell Beaker Culture.

While we know that the Bell Beaker Culture existed the only thing that's really up for debate is their point of origin. One argument is that they originated in northern Spain while there is a counter argument that they actually originated in Central Europe. Supporting arguments have been made for both. In neither case is there any real argument in favor of the BBK originating in northwestern Europe.

cormac

[Otharus]

OK, I meant those names in Volney's book: Chris-en (OLB 'Kris-en'), Yes-us (OLB Jes-us), and Fot.

I haven't seen these names in one single paragraph together in any other book then the OLB and Volney's 'The Ruines'.

Fair enough, Abe.

We can at least agree that it is a noteworthy co-incidence, but various explanations are possible.

I respect your situation and take back my speculation about the reason for why you didn't answer my questions.

This is a good moment too for me to do as I said earlier and take a serious break from this forum.

It seems to be all or nothing for me, typical for addictions.

I want to thank you again for having 'played this game' here with me for so long and wish you the very best in sorting things out.

[Otharus]

I will just give the fragment from "De Gemaskerde God" (Jensma, 2004) about this (sorry English readers, no translation this time).

Before I take the intended break, here is the translation that I made and posted 11 April 2011 in the old thread.

~ ~ ~

In 1876 a schoolteacher from Den Helder, Cornelis Wijs, remembered an incident that happened in 1831. He was working on a ship called Nehalennia, on which the father of Cornelis, Jan Over de Linden was also working. The latter had in joyous moods often taken pride in the fact that he descended from the oldest family of the world, and in the same context he would also ridicule nobility [dutch: “adel“].

Another two teachers that went to school with Over de Linden’s oldest son Cornelis [around 1848], remembered a similar incident. As a 14 year old schoolboy, this Cornelis II (1833-1868) would sometimes have fights with a fellow student from a noble family, a certain ‘baron’ Eichstorff, who took pride in his high descent. Cornelis would have said: “Your German noble descent means nothing to me; we are of much older nobility than you, and Frisian.” And: “Father says it [that we are of noble descent], and he knows it from a book with such strange letters, that we can‘t even read it; Father can only read bits of it.” The two fellow students who remembered this incident, as well as two other people from Den Helder made an official ‘sealed‘ statement [at a notary?], declaring that between 1848 and 1850, they had known of the existence of the manuscript (without having seen it themselves). (free translation, DGG, p.241-243)

A similar statement by a sea-officer named W.M. Visser who had made a note in his diary on 23 December 1854. On that day Cornelis Over de Linden had told him about the book, that “not only was written in a strange language, but also with such strange letters, that he could not read it.” (DGG, p.243 and footnote)

[The Puzzler]

It's the only representative Y Chromosome DNA evidence related to the Bell Beaker Culture.

Which effectively nullifies Puzzlers speculation that the Fryans can be associated with the Bell Beaker culture, as they don't appear to have burned their corpses and buried their ashes.

cormac

Nothing nullifies anything there imo.

Come, friend, and you shall hear her wisdom. By the gravestone of which mention has already been made her body is buried. Upon the stone the following words are inscribed:—

TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA.

[The Puzzler]

Remains were found in the same area, same timeframe as the Bell Beaker Culture and with the same pottery representative of the Bell Beaker Culture.

While we know that the Bell Beaker Culture existed the only thing that's really up for debate is their point of origin. One argument is that they originated in northern Spain while there is a counter argument that they actually originated in Central Europe. Supporting arguments have been made for both. In neither case is there any real argument in favor of the BBK originating in northwestern Europe.

cormac

Just to clarify:

The following prehistoric cultures have been attributed to the region, compatible with but not necessarily proving the Nordwestblock hypothesis: the Bell Beaker culture is thought to originate from the same geographic area, as early stages of this culture apparently derived from early Corded Ware culture elements, with the Netherlands/Rhineland region as probably the most widely accepted site of origin (J. P. Mallory, EIEC p. 53).

I understand this as saying the Corded Ware origin is in the Netherlands/Rhineland region. This area encompasses, eventually, the whole Fryan said area from Netherlands to Poland.

The Bell Beaker has derived from these early Corded Ware elements, moving south from the Corded Ware core, possibly having it's cultural origin in the Portugal area, but it's elemental origin is with the Corded Ware, more North, and the Bell Beaker may have been a new offshoot of them.

So, the Bell Beaker people may not been the Fryans in Friesland, but a Fryan people who moved south into Spain and created their own distinct culture.

I'm more looking into the Friesland area of continuing cultures.

[cormac mac airt]

Nothing nullifies anything there imo.

Come, friend, and you shall hear her wisdom. By the gravestone of which mention has already been made her body is buried. Upon the stone the following words are inscribed:—

TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA.

Except that the OLB, as Otharus mentioned, says the Frya's burned their corpses and buried the ashes. Which, if we take the bit about Adela's body being buried as an exception still means everyone else had no body in which to be found in modern times and DNA tested. So again, it doesn't support a Fryan/Bell Beaker Culture connection.

cormac