Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Van Gorp]

...

Well, show us those chronicles. This is the place to do it, I'd say.

I think it is quite obvious what texts and stories are involved. The ones a great deal of Hollands pretended history is based on.

Codex Eberhardi

Annales Fuldenses

Annales Bertiniani

Annales Xantenses

Cartularium van Radboud

…

For detailed studies on these, Ijpelaan and Delahaye have produced enough material to dive into.

[Abramelin]

OK, now let's hope there are online copies of these chronicles.

==

Something I found by coincidence:

Flanders and Flemish (Dutch: Vlaanderen, Vlaams) are likely derived from the Frisian *flāndra and *flāmisk (in Old Frisian flamsk), the roots of which are Germanic *flaumaz meaning "overflow, flooding". The coastal area of Flanders was flooded twice per day from the 3rd century to the 8th century by the North Sea at the time when the coast was frequently visited by Frisian (catle) traders and probably partly inhabited by Frisians.

The Flemish people are first mentioned in the biography of Saint Eligius (ca. 590-660), the Vita sancti Eligii. This work was written before 684, but only known since 725. This work mentions the "Flanderenses", who lived in "Flandris".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Flanders

[Abramelin]

Well, I found an online copy of he Codex Eberhardi (9th century):

http://www.keesn.nl/..._fulda_text.htm

And this link to a page on that same site that gives us place names and gives us the Dutch Frisian equivalents:

http://www.keesn.nl/...2_fulda_geo.htm

Province

FR = province Friesland

GR = province Groningen

LI = province Limburg

NH = province Noord-Holland

O-FR = Ost Friesland in North Germany

Frisia = the north and west of The Netherlands

So where does Belgium show up here?

.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

Well, I found an online copy of he Codex Eberhardi (9th century):

http://www.keesn.nl/..._fulda_text.htm

And this link to a page on that same site that gives us place names and gives us the Dutch Frisian equivalents:

http://www.keesn.nl/...2_fulda_geo.htm

Province

FR = province Friesland

GR = province Groningen

LI = province Limburg

NH = province Noord-Holland

O-FR = Ost Friesland in North Germany

Frisia = the north and west of The Netherlands

So where does Belgium show up here?

.

Examples of former dutch speaking areas in Northern France that are linked with the places mentionned in the codex are there for sure: Adinkerke/Duinkerke/Frethun/Ambleteuse ...

Some comments on Fulda and the codex Eberhardi by Ijpelaan: http://ijpelaan.nl/A...-Fulda.html#N10

Other comments of Delahaye: http://web.inter.nl....ponymischwb.htm

Het eerste is dat de vermeende eigendom door geen enkele oorspronkelijke oorkonde wordt gedekt :

«Geen enkele oorkonde, hetzij in origineel hetzij in afschrift, licht ons nog in omtrent de vorming van het uitgebreide goederenbezit van de abdij van Fulda in het gebied [

Fresia

] waar haar stichter [

Bonifatius

] in 754 de marteldood had gevonden.» (

8

).

De abdij van Fulda zou de originele bewijsstukken, als het op grond daarvan werkelijk rechten had kunnen laten gelden, nooit verloren hebben laten gaan om enkel een gedeeltelijk afschrift daarvan voor alle eeuwigheid zorgvuldig te bewaren.

Het tweede probleem is dat monnik Everhard bij het kopiëren van de vroeg-middeleeuwse documenten alle namen en de oorspronkelijke tekst zodanig verhaspelde dat er niet veel meer mee kan worden aangevangen :

«Everhard heeft deze arbeid niet op intelligente wijze uitgevoerd, en bovendien heeft hij vele namen verhoogduitst.» (

9

).

Datzelfde is ook sterker uitgedrukt, en wel in Fulda zélf, waar de Codex Eberhardi geldt als :

«een van de grootste vervalsingsoperaties die in de Middeleeuwen in één enkele werkplaats ooit werd ondernomen.»

(

10

).

«eine der größten Fälschungsaktionen, die im Mittelalter jemals in einer einzigen Werkstatt erfolgten.»

Thomas Vogtherr

one of the biggest falsification endeavors in the Middle Ages

Als enige verzachtende omstandigheid voor de valsheid in geschrifte plegende Eberhard is aangevoerd dat hij dit niet deed in zijn eigen belang, maar in dat van zijn abdij.

Het ging Eberhard om het opeisen van rechten in de twaalfde eeuw, en dus bevat zijn document al dan niet bestaande namen uit de twaalfde eeuw en geen namen uit de achtste eeuw. Hij verving namen die hij meende te herkennen door namen van plaatsen waar de abdij inkomsten dacht te kunnen verwerven en de overige namen verminkte hij zodanig dat de meeste onherkenbaar werden. Maar omdat er verder niets bekend is van het met goed gevolg opeisen van rechten door Fulda op grond van deze lijst is het zeer de vraag welke plaatsen Eberhard in gedachte had toen hij hem samenstelde en al everzeer of die daadwerkelijk overeenkomen met de plaatsnamen die eerst veel later op zijn tekst zijn geplakt.

Als het duidelijk is dat we met een vervalsing te maken hebben, dan is het probleem nog niet opgelost. Eberhard maakte ongetwijfeld gebruik van echte oude documenten. Waarop hadden die betrekking ? Het antwoord op die vraag is te vinden in Noordwest-Frankrijk.

Het namenbestand

Hoewel er ook in Frans-Vlaanderen als gevolg van de namenverminking met de lijst niet erg veel kan worden aangevangen – in tegenstelling tot lijsten uit andere kloosters en tot bijvoorbeeld de goederenlijst van het bisdom Traiectum – is een aantal namen herkenbaar uit andere documenten, met name enkele streeknamen die de weg wijzen :

• Fatruwerd / Feterwrde / Federfurt / Federwrt / Federgewe / Fetergewe / Federatgewe / Federetgewe (pago) is dezelfde plaats als Federitga, genoemd rond 805 en is volgens Albert Delahaye Vaudricourt (11).
  
• Ostrache en Westeriche zijn Ostrachia / Ostrevant / Osterbant / Osterga ten zuidwesten van Rijsel (Frans Lille) en Westrachia / Westerbant / Westergo ten oosten van Atrecht (Frans Arras); het zijn dus niet Oostergo en Westergo in Friesland (12).
  
• De pagus Wirense is niet Wieringen, dat onbewoond was en waarvan de naam nog niet bestond, maar het land van Wierre-Effroy, het gebied ingeklemd tussen de Slack en de Wimereux waar we Wierre-Effroy vinden ten noordwesten van Boulogne-sur-Mer, in 857 Wilere genaamd, in 1084 Wilra, in 1129 Wirla, in 1184 Wirra, in 1190 Wirre en in de veertiende eeuw Wierre-le-Hainfroy; ten zuidoosten van Boulogne en ten westen van Desvres is bovendien Wierre-aux-Bois te vinden en iets ten noorden daarvan Wirwignes (13).
  

Door de verbastering van het namenbestand zijn alle plaatsingen zeker speculatief; die voor de Pas-de-Calais echter zeker niet méér dan de traditionele.

In de lijst hieronder zijn de plaatsen die in de tweede kolom worden genoemd traditionalistische interpretaties. Tenzij anders vermeld liggen ze in de huidige Nederlandse provincie Friesland. Hoewel zelfs de dolste gissingen zijn opgenomen gelden van de 120 namen er niet minder dan 75 (ruim 60%) als Onbekend. Van iedere acht plaatsen worden er dus maar drie aangewezen. Daarvan worden ook een paar plaatsen in Zuid-Limburg neergezet, hoewel Zuid-Limburg in geen enkele opvatting ooit deel uitmaakte van Fresia. Hetzelfde geldt voor enkele genoemde plaatsen in Midden-Duitsland en zelfs Oost-Polen ! Van de 45 namen die wél zijn geplaatst is éénderde ronduit absurd, zodat het eindresultaat traditionalistisch bedroevend is. Voor de Pas-de-Calais zijn ter vergelijking een zestigtal mogelijke plaatsingen gegeven (de helft van het namenbestand), een aantal dat met gemak zou kunnen worden uitgebreid, maar dat door de verhaspeling van de namen verder van geen betekenis is.

Van de interpetaties zouden we mogen verwachten dat die controleerbaar in andere bronnen in ieder geval vóór 1200 hebben bestaan en dat de plaatselijke archeologie een ononderbroken bewoning sinds de achtste eeuw te zien geeft. Aangezien aan geen van beide criteria wordt voldaan zakken de bestaande interpretaties weg in de modder. De lijst uit Fulda bewijst dan ook niets voor de vroeg-middeleeuwse geschiedenis van Kennemerland, Holland of Friesland.

[Abramelin]

Great, so Delahaye acknowledged that the Codex Eberhardi is an ancient forgery, but did not hesitate to use it anyway.

And Delahaye needed a LOT of twisting and mangling to make these ancient place names similar to Belgium ones.

http://www.keesn.nl/...2_fulda_geo.htm

This is the best example you gave:

Fatruwerd / Feterwrde / Federfurt / Federwrt / Federgewe / Fetergewe / Federatgewe / Federetgewe (pago) is dezelfde plaats als Federitga, genoemd rond 805 en is volgens Albert Delahaye Vaudricourt

At the same time their are almost perfect matches in Friesland.

.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

I'm not relying on Mallory, I told you, I don't care where either the BB or CW cultures began, this TIMEFRAME, which is what the question you asked me was about in the first place, is when the people of the area would have been Fryans, simple.

The problem with this is that the OLB tends to suggest that the Fryans originated in this area, which runs counter to the more widely accepted ideas for the origins of either the BBK or CWC. So either the OLB is wrong as to place of origin or it has little to do with either culture.

Fair enough imo, either way, they align with the cultures there.

Then tell me, which of these cultures went back and forth between burying their dead and cremating them? Because the available evidence I've seen so far isn't showing that.

The language of the Nordwestblock of which the Fryans would have been part of has been presented as a possible area that PIE developed as the OLB says.

And as I've posted before, a recent study has stated that the Indo-European family originated in Anatolia. And since Frisian along with the other Germanic languages is Indo-European, then ultimately they descend linguistically from these early Anatolian immigrants. Which means that this too did not originate in the Netherlands.

How about the Ligurians, neither Celtic nor Germanic...

They're still considered Indo-European and the area they lived in is R1b, which also supports an original Anatolian origin thousands of years in their past.

Even IF the Frisians originated in the Netherlands, there's nothing to suggest their language group is any more important than others in the area and certainly not the origin of any other of the Germanic languages. Nor are they genetically the origin of any group in that area. In short, they're just another of many, MANY peoples of the area. No more or less important than anyone else.

cormac

[Otharus]

... the Frisians

... they're just another of many, MANY peoples of the area.

No more or less important than anyone else.

So that is your main concern and reason to stalk this threat.

[Abramelin]

So that is your main concern and reason to stalk this threat.

Don't rule out the Germans, lol:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=4200#entry3854495

According to Johannes Turmair (Bayerische Chronik & Deutsche Chronik) there was a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history. These rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures.

[Otharus]

Great, so Delahaye acknowledged that the Codex Eberhardi is an ancient forgery, but did not hesitate to use it anyway.

If you read carefully, you'll see that he used it in the only valid way: to show that our traditional history is based on forgeries like this.

Maybe some of you are now ready to read (again) some of what I posted in February 2011, old thread (underlinings added just now):

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In the last few weeks I have explored some of the 'Frisian' history of the early middle ages (before 1000), and came to the conclusion that at least some of alternative historian Albert Delahaye's theories must be right, which would have major consequences for Dutch traditional historiography.

In case the reader had not noticed yet, Dutch 'established history' (of the scholars) smells bad, so bad that I more-and-more understand how most people who find out some of the truth stay silent and maybe don't even want to think about it anymore, because it's so depressing.

I don't know where to start, so I'll just start with something that I consider to be an important clue to a better understanding (for whoever is interested and has a strong stomach).

The following is an improvised translation (by me, with some added notes in bold) from:

http://www.ijpelaan....Willibrord.html

"1. Willibrord's mission

The Benedictine Willibrord preached the Fresen from 690 till his death in 739." [etcetera]

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

More here:

http://fryskednis.blogspot.be/2011/03/um-posts

[Otharus]

Does anyone know if someone ever tried to write a text in a (reconstructed) PIE language?

[cormac mac airt]

So that is your main concern and reason to stalk this threat.

Just can't stand the fact that they're not more or less important than anyone else at the time, can you? That's sad really.

I base my understanding on what the evidence for the actual physical cultures of the area and time show as well as the genetics involved, NOT on what I want to be true.

cormac

Edited October 20, 2012 by cormac mac airt

[Abramelin]

Does anyone know if someone ever tried to write a text in a (reconstructed) PIE language?

Hamp's/Sen's version from the EIEC (1997:503), that differs from original Hamp's version in replacing Hamp's Lughus with Sen's Werunos:

To rḗḱs éh1est. So n̥putlos éh1est. So rēḱs súhnum éwel(e)t. Só tós(j)o ǵʰeutérm̥ (e)pr̥ḱsḱet: "Súhxnus moi ǵn̥h1jotām!" So ǵʰeutēr tom rḗǵm̥ éweukʷet: "Ihxgeswo deiwóm Wérunom". So rḗḱs deiwóm Werunom h4úpo-sesore nu deiwóm (é)ihxgeto. "ḱludʰí moi, phater Werune!" Deiwós Wérunos km̥ta diwós égʷehat. "Kʷíd welsi?" "Wélmi súxnum." "Tód h1éstu", wéukʷet loukós deiwos Werunos. Rēǵós pótniha súhnum gegonh1e.

Lehmann's version:

Pótis gʰe ʔest. Só-kʷe n̥gn̥ʔtós ʔest, sū́num-kʷe wl̥next. So ǵʰutérm̥ pr̥ket: "Sū́nus moi gn̥hjotām!" ǵʰutḗr nu pótim weukʷet: "Jégeswo gʰi déiwom Wérunom." úpo pro pótis-kʷe déiwom sesore déiwom-kʷe jegto. "Kludʰí moi, dejwe Werune!" Só nu km̥ta diwós gʷāt. "Kʷód wl̥nexsi?" "Wl̥néxmi sū́num." "Tód ʔestu", wéwkʷet lewkós déjwos. Pótnī gʰi sū́num gegonʔe.

English translation:

Once there was a king. He was childless. The king wanted a son. He asked his priest: "May a son be born to me!" The priest said to the king: "Pray to the god Werunos". The king approached the god Werunos to pray now to the god. "Hear me, father Werunos!" The god Werunos came down from heaven. "What do you want?" "I want a son." "Let this be so", said the bright god Werunos. The king's lady bore a son.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

[Abramelin]

Otharus, if the next is true:

Flanders and Flemish (Dutch: Vlaanderen, Vlaams) are likely derived from the Frisian *flāndra and *flāmisk (in Old Frisian flamsk), the roots of which are Germanic *flaumaz meaning "overflow, flooding". The coastal area of Flanders was flooded twice per day from the 3rd century to the 8th century by the North Sea at the time when the coast was frequently visited by Frisian (cattle) traders and probably partly inhabited by Frisians.

The Flemish people are first mentioned in the biography of Saint Eligius (ca. 590-660), the Vita sancti Eligii. This work was written before 684, but only known since 725. This work mentions the "Flanderenses", who lived in "Flandris".

http://en.wikipedia....nty_of_Flanders

... then could that not explain why Frisian(-ish) names ended up in Flanders?

++++

EDIT:

However, i still have some problems with the way Delahaye equated place names in ancient chronicles with modern Flemish/Flandrian place names.

.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I have another question for you, Otharus (and Van Gorp):

Assuming Delahaye was right all along, and that Dutch history of between around 200 and 1000 AD actually took place in Belgium and northern France, how would that explain or prove or whatever concerning the OLB?

[Van Gorp]

I have another question for you, Otharus (and Van Gorp):

Assuming Delahaye was right all along, and that Dutch history of between around 200 and 1000 AD actually took place in Belgium and northern France, how would that explain or prove or whatever concerning the OLB?

It would explain how 'certainties' in the history school books can be better examined once again, and not only for the Dutch history.

OLB forms some very interesting material for that, where it's names/places/background can then be regarded in some different view.

What it further explains/proves is maybe relative to the thoughts of the individual readers, but one is that Cornelis' family could have in a distant past some relatives in regarded families from that region.

A searchline ... and if so, It could expand the view on authenticity of the whole story by some new ways without neglecting the fact that the story was indeed in the hands of a Dutch Frisian family.

[The Puzzler]

The problem with this is that the OLB tends to suggest that the Fryans originated in this area, which runs counter to the more widely accepted ideas for the origins of either the BBK or CWC. So either the OLB is wrong as to place of origin or it has little to do with either culture.

Then tell me, which of these cultures went back and forth between burying their dead and cremating them? Because the available evidence I've seen so far isn't showing that.

And as I've posted before, a recent study has stated that the Indo-European family originated in Anatolia. And since Frisian along with the other Germanic languages is Indo-European, then ultimately they descend linguistically from these early Anatolian immigrants. Which means that this too did not originate in the Netherlands.

They're still considered Indo-European and the area they lived in is R1b, which also supports an original Anatolian origin thousands of years in their past.

Even IF the Frisians originated in the Netherlands, there's nothing to suggest their language group is any more important than others in the area and certainly not the origin of any other of the Germanic languages. Nor are they genetically the origin of any group in that area. In short, they're just another of many, MANY peoples of the area. No more or less important than anyone else.

cormac

It says here they went back and forth between cremation and burial...

In Europe, there are traces of cremation dating to the Early Bronze Age (c. 2000 B.C.) in the Pannonian Plain and along the middle Danube. The custom becomes dominant throughout Bronze Age Europe with the Urnfield culture (from ca. 1300 B.C.). In the Iron Age, inhumation becomes again more common, but cremation persisted in the Villanovan culture and elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation

The LATEST study say Anatolia, in no way is it the proven place of origin. Same as IE people, based on a lame theory that farming started there, so the IE words must have come from the same area. I think your debate is pretty lame too actually.

"Ploughman take my earth" - or the honourable and noble Aryans...

er-e

, afries., M.?: nhd. Pflügen; ne. ploughing (N.); Vw.: s. ov-er-; E.: s. er-a

êr-e

24, afries., st. F. (æ): nhd. Ehre, Verehrung; ne. honour

Edited October 21, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

It says here they went back and forth between cremation and burial...

In Europe, there are traces of cremation dating to the Early Bronze Age (c. 2000 B.C.) in the Pannonian Plain and along the middle Danube. The custom becomes dominant throughout Bronze Age Europe with the Urnfield culture (from ca. 1300 B.C.). In the Iron Age, inhumation becomes again more common, but cremation persisted in the Villanovan culture and elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation

The LATEST study say Anatolia, in no way is it the proven place of origin. Same as IE people, based on a lame theory that farming started there, so the IE words must have come from the same area. I think your debate is pretty lame too actually.

~SNIP~

The Pannonian Plain, the middle Danube and the Urnfield Culture are all Central European. The Villanovan is Italian. NONE of these have anything to do with the Netherlands. And I asked you which of the cultures you were talking about bounced between cremation and burying bodies. It's rather telling that you had to go to Central Europe to find something, since there's nothing to suggest it was the CWC or BBK in the Netherlands.

You haven't shown anything substantial to counter the argument of where IE originated.

It's not a lame theory. The earliest evidence of farming/crop domestication in Europe is found in Anatolia, c.7800/8800 BC, in the form of domesticated Einkorn and Emmer wheat. It's not going to go away because you don't like this fact.

cormac

[Otharus]

Assuming Delahaye was right all along, and that Dutch history of between around 200 and 1000 AD actually took place in Belgium and northern France, how would that explain or prove or whatever concerning the OLB?

In Februari 2011 (old thread), I tried to explain that:

Feb. 6

Demasking the Dutch 'Willibrord myth' is relevant because it shows how and why the history of 8th century Frisia in West Flandres/ North France was relocated to 12th century Westfriesland/ Holland/ Utrecht.

Feb. 8

Understanding this is vital for anyone who wants to explore and interpret the (reception of the) Oera Linda-book and/or old-Frisian (pseudo-) historiography.

Feb. 9

When one accepts that the "Friesland" of the second half of the first Millennium has to be placed in the North-West of France, the Frisian 'legends' of that time (that until today are considered to be purely fiction by established historic science) start to make much more sense.

[Otharus]

Otharus, if the next is true:

"The coastal area of Flanders was flooded twice per day from the 3rd century to the 8th century by the North Sea at the time when the coast was frequently visited by Frisian (cattle) traders and probably partly inhabited by Frisians."

... then could that not explain why Frisian(-ish) names ended up in Flanders?

Yes, and it is possible that Frisians lived there also before the 3rd century.

[Otharus]

Hamp's/Sen's version [...]:

To rḗḱs éh1est. [...]

Lehmann's version:

Pótis gʰe ʔest. [...]

Thanks for that.

Don't know what to think of it yet.

My understanding of evolution is that complexity increases through time, not the opposite, although it may not be a linear process and sudden shifts may occur.

[Abramelin]

Thanks for that.

Don't know what to think of it yet.

My understanding of evolution is that complexity increases through time, not the opposite, although it may not be a linear process and sudden shifts may occur.

It is only looking quite different from many Germanic languages, so you cannnot read it as 'easily' as you can read the OLB or a 12th century Frisian law text.

PIE evolved alright, but that has nothing to do with becoming more or less complex.

[Abramelin]

Yes, and it is possible that Frisians lived there also before the 3rd century.

They could have been the Frisiavones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisiavones

I know I mentioned the (Belgian) "Fresones" as being no one else but the Frisiavones (part -1- of this thread).

And that word, "Fresones" was mentioned in connection with Willibrord, not "Fresen". Fresen was how the Frisians in general were called, in Frankish and in Irish.

Btw, from that Wiki page:

"Elizabeth Wightman proposes that the north of Germania Inferior, near the Batavians, is the most likely place that the Frisiavones lived. She mentions that in one inscription, the Bulla Regia, the Tungri, Batavians and Frisiavones are grouped together. She suggests that the Marsaci and the Sturii could be "pagi" (smaller sub-populations) of either the Frisiavones or the Menapii,"

I don't remember ever reading that part of that page, but it would somewhat confirm what I said about the Menapii, that they were probably a Frisian tribe with a different name.

[Otharus]

And that word, "Fresones" was mentioned in connection with Willibrord, not "Fresen".

Fresones is just a Latin version.

Besides, writers will not have learnt to spell like we did at school (Latin at best).

They used a spelling they knew from other sources, or wrote things down fonetically.

There is no difference between Fresen, Friesen, Friezen, Vriezen.

What is the difference between De Haag en 's-Gravenhage?

Edited October 21, 2012 by Otharus

[The Puzzler]

The Pannonian Plain, the middle Danube and the Urnfield Culture are all Central European. The Villanovan is Italian. NONE of these have anything to do with the Netherlands. And I asked you which of the cultures you were talking about bounced between cremation and burying bodies. It's rather telling that you had to go to Central Europe to find something, since there's nothing to suggest it was the CWC or BBK in the Netherlands.

You haven't shown anything substantial to counter the argument of where IE originated.

It's not a lame theory. The earliest evidence of farming/crop domestication in Europe is found in Anatolia, c.7800/8800 BC, in the form of domesticated Einkorn and Emmer wheat. It's not going to go away because you don't like this fact.

cormac

I barely even get your point about burying and cremation really. The OLB says they cremated and scattered the ashes or buried them deep, they never put them in urns anyway. What are we supposed to find? I made no claim that cremations took place as anything else than to get rid of the whole body, they didn't keep them as keepsakes - so none will be found. They buried people under stones, megalithic stones no doubt.

I don't think anything you've mentioned says that Fryans were not living between Sweden and the Rhine or that they weren't part of the Corded Ware culture, I never said they even had to be BB at any point.

You could even throw in the LBK as being in the Netherlands too. (5200BC)

I place the Fryans as an I haplogroup anyway. I2a2 actually.(S33) (prev. I2b) A pre-Celtic-Germanic people who built the megaliths but don't doubt at all, considering the OLB tells us this over and over, that other cultures came into theirs and all but assimilated them, with a new language being dominant and the pure Fryan form now being lost - one that went out as Fryan, got twisted and came back in, with other cultures. Not to mention the mentions of the Magyars learning THEIR language - then spreading it around everywhere they went.

I don't care if the 'fact' is that other haplogroups, not I group, was farming in Anatolia - this has nothing to do with language, nor does it prove that some Neolithic farmers c. 8000BC began speaking PIE.

PIE Urheimat proposals include Northern Europe:

the 6th millennium BC or later in Northern Europe according to Lothar Kilian's and, especially, Marek Zvelebil's models of a broader homeland;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIE

Zvelebil's primary research interest was in the European Mesolithic and Mesolithic-Neolithic transition, particularly in the Baltic region. His PhD research was on the transition to farming in Finland and the eastern Baltic. Over the course of his career he wrote or edited more than a hundred scholarly works, including seminal papers such as Hunters in Transition (1986) and “Plant Use in the Mesolithic and its role in the transition to farming” (1994).

http://en.wikipedia..../Marek_Zvelebil

I also agree with Otharus, that language should go from basic forms to more advanced forms, not begin with advanced forms of words, like some *proto words, and develop back to basic words, that to me, is the most illogical thing of it all.

Edited October 21, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Fresones is just a Latin version.

Besides, writers will not have learnt to spell like we did at school (Latin at best).

They used a spelling they knew from other sources, or wrote things down fonetically.

There is no difference between Fresen, Friesen, Friezen, Vriezen.

What is the difference between De Haag en 's-Gravenhage?

It may have been the (or a) Latin version, but I have also read (I think in the Lex Frisiones (lol) the word "Fresenes" or in one of those Frisian codices.

OK, agreed, maybe just another way of spelling, but I still wonder who those Frisiavones/Frisabones were, and what their name meant.

And so I checked the online Old Frisian Dictionary: many Old Frisian words starting with 'bon-' can be read as starting with 'ban-' ...and it means 'murderer' and so on.

*bâ-n-e, however appears to be related with 'living in a house', as in Dutch 'wonen'.

And 'banna' has to do with 'to rule', 'to order', 'to summon', and with 'to bannish'.

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-B.pdf

I now think, based on what I found, the name should be "Frisiavones", and then it meant nothing but something like "Frisians who settled here" or "Frisian settlers" (in crooked Dutch: "Friese woners' or "Friese bewoners"). The -V- in Frisiavones could be nothing but a Latin -U-, resulting in : Frisiauones.

The etymology for the Dutch 'wonen' (to inhabit a place or area, to live in a house) goes back a long time:

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/wonen

The Frisiavones (also Frisævones or Frisiabones) were a Germanic tribe sometimes considered as a subdivision of the Frisii, who in turn are traditionally considered to be ancestors of modern Frisians. Pliny the Elder, however, appeared to distinguish them from the Frisii. They also appear in inscriptions found in Roman Britain (dated between 103-249 AD).[1] They appear to have lived in two different areas.

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In his Germania the Roman historian Tacitus mentions two different populations of Frisii, maioribus minoribusque frisii, the major and minor Frisians, both having settled downstream the Rhine. This division of the Frisii into two populations is sometimes thought to explain the Frisiavones.

The Byzantian historian Procopius († 562 AD) referred to "Phrissones" being one amongst three tribes dwelling in Brittia, a distinct name from his more usual Brettania, together with Angiloi and Brittones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisiavones

If those "Phrissones" were living in West Flanders, then it could have been them who eventually settled in Britain (and Ireland), because for them England would have been very near.

Btw, Otharus (or anyone): where did the idea the Frisii traded (cattle) with people in ancient West Flanders come from?