Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

Just ranting a bit more:

The Ingaevones or, as Pliny has it, apparently more accurately, Ingvaeones ("people of Yngvi"), as described in Tacitus's Germania, written c. 98 AD, were a West Germanic cultural group living along the North Sea coast in the areas of Jutland, Holstein, Frisia and the Danish islands, where they had by the 1st century BCE become further differentiated to a foreigner's eye into the Frisii, Saxons, Jutes and Angles. The postulated common group of closely related dialects of the Ingvaeones is called Ingvaeonic or North Sea Germanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingaevones

So the '-vones' part could mean either 'settlers', or 'people of'.

In either way it suggests the Frisiavones were Frisii who had settled elsewhere, 'people of Frisia'.

[Abramelin]

Lisbon's name was written Ulyssippo in Latin by the geographer Pomponius Mela, a native of Hispania. It was later referenced as "Olisippo" by Pliny the Elder, and to the Greeks as Olissipo (Ολισσιπών) and Olissipona (Ολισσιπόνα). According to legend, the location was named for Ulysses, who founded the settlement after he left Troy to escape the Greek coalition. Later, the Greek name appeared in Vulgar Latin in the form Olissipona.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon

I mentioned Lisbon in one of my more 'inspirational' posts, lol:

http://www.unexplain...80#entry3792877

And I can imagine Charles De Grave (1806) did what I did, and suggested Ulysses settled in Vlissingen (a city in the Dutch province Zeeland) :

from that post:

Ulyssippo/ Olissipona.... U=V (in Latin) >>> Vlyssipona >>> P>>B >>> Vlyssibona >>> V>>F >> Flyssibona >> L>> R >> Frisiibona.

(my present avatar is a part of the Lisbon coat of arms)

+++

EDIT:

Just in case someone reads this in the future, and has no idea what avatar I am talking about (I change it frequently):

.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Just ranting a bit more:

The Ingaevones or, as Pliny has it, apparently more accurately, Ingvaeones ("people of Yngvi"), as described in Tacitus's Germania, written c. 98 AD, were a West Germanic cultural group living along the North Sea coast in the areas of Jutland, Holstein, Frisia and the Danish islands, where they had by the 1st century BCE become further differentiated to a foreigner's eye into the Frisii, Saxons, Jutes and Angles. The postulated common group of closely related dialects of the Ingvaeones is called Ingvaeonic or North Sea Germanic.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ingaevones

So the '-vones' part could mean either 'settlers', or 'people of'.

In either way it suggests the Frisiavones were Frisii who had settled elsewhere, 'people of Frisia'.

The word Ingvaeones, if translated to people of Yngvi - seems to have the - vae in Ingvae- part attached to Yngvi, so vones could not be a separate word in that word imo (Plinys)

Ingaevones could be Ingae+vones, but I don't see how Pliny's word could be, if the Ingvae is Ingvi.

vone in Frisian is actually relating to feminine - fone=famne

But fon is 'of' - 'von'.

Ingaevones = of Ingae/of Yngi

I am unsure how the v pops in Yngvi considering vones should be a separate word, which is 'of'.

Edited October 21, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

ald - alda (frisian)

alt - alte (german)

oud - oude (dutch)

alda cannot be divided into al and da.

ald is old as in "he is old"

alda is old as in "the old man" or on itself in can mean "old one"

dutch:

hij is oud - he is old

de oude man - the old man

de oude viel - the old one fell

(same for frisian and german)

I think it could be broken up into al-da, which really means old - the all.

This is my point on why Frisian works as an original language, even small words can be made up of even smaller words.

[Abramelin]

The word Ingvaeones, if translated to people of Yngvi - seems to have the - vae in Ingvae- part attached to Yngvi, so vones could not be a separate word in that word imo (Plinys)

Ingaevones could be Ingae+vones, but I don't see how Pliny's word could be, if the Ingvae is Ingvi.

vone in Frisian is actually relating to feminine - fone=famne

But fon is 'of' - 'von'.

Ingaevones = of Ingae/of Yngi

I am unsure how the v pops in Yngvi considering vones should be a separate word, which is 'of'.

LOL, "vone in Frisian is actually relating to feminine - fone=famne

OK, so in Western Flanders there was a tribe of only Frisian women.

They must've been a popular tribe...

No, Puzz, check the Old Frisian Dictionary I linked to (and that I know you know of).

-vones meaning nothing but 'settlers' or 'people from' seems quite plausible to me.

.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I think it could be broken up into al-da, which really means old - the all.

This is my point on why Frisian works as an original language, even small words can be made up of even smaller words.

AL-Da, that would translate, according to me, into "All There".

Nothing to do with anything 'old'.

[The Puzzler]

LOL, "vone in Frisian is actually relating to feminine - fone=famne

OK, so in Western Flanders there was a tribe of only Frisian women.

They must've been a popular tribe...

No, Puzz, check the Old Frisian Dictionary I linked to (and that I know you know of).

-vones meaning nothing but 'settlers' or 'people from' seems quite plausible to me.

.

Because fon means of - then you change the context to 'people of' or people from. It's not fone/vones for women lol - it's FON for 'of'.

I checked, there is no v words in Frisian - you have to go to F.

It's the same thing, (people OF) I'm not disagreeing with you.

fon

40, fan, afries., Präp.: nhd. von; ne. of

Edited October 21, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

AL-Da, that would translate, according to me, into "All There".

Nothing to do with anything 'old'.

da in North frisian is 'the' not 'there'. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/da

'The all'.

I can even give you a Greek Gods name that is 'all' - that is Pan, a very, very OLD God, according to Herodotus.

You think the word old just popped up in language, no, it's made up of another meaning, to what old would have originally meant.

[cormac mac airt]

I barely even get your point about burying and cremation really.

I'm not the one who originally brought it up, Otharus did. And has since backed away from it. You, on the other hand, never showed where either the CWC or BBK bounced between the two although you did speculate as much. I asked for support for your assertion and you had none. Fine.

I don't think anything you've mentioned says that Fryans were not living between Sweden and the Rhine or that they weren't part of the Corded Ware culture, I never said they even had to be BB at any point.

You did speculate on a connection, at least peripherally, without ever showing evidence for same. I never said Fryans couldn't have lived there, what I have said is that there is nothing that you've presented that would connect them with either of the cultures you've mentioned.

I place the Fryans as an I haplogroup anyway.

Which is possible, but then Haplogroup I hasn't been found in any of the genetics studies associated with the cultures you're trying to make connections with. So far the only viable samples were R1a1, R1b, F* and G2a3. None of which are remotely related to Haplogroup I.

I don't care if the 'fact' is that other haplogroups, not I group, was farming in Anatolia - this has nothing to do with language, nor does it prove that some Neolithic farmers c. 8000BC began speaking PIE.

Which shows that you don't understand what the study is saying. The results of the study are much like the results of triangulating a cell phone signal when one doesn't know where the person is. In "triangulating" the earliest use and spread of words/root-words it can be determined approximately where the origin point actually rests. This isn't a claim of "Neolithic farmers began speaking IE" as much as it's a claim of "the Indo-European language has been determined to have originated in Anatolia, which interestingly enough is the same geographical area from where Neolithic farmers sprang". One is not dependant on the other, which seems to be the problem you're having understand this.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I'm not the one who originally brought it up, Otharus did. And has since backed away from it. You, on the other hand, never showed where either the CWC or BBK bounced between the two although you did speculate as much. I asked for support for your assertion and you had none. Fine.

OK fine, I think you are speculating that I was speculating. You asked for a time frame and I gave you one, I never asserted or speculated any of those cultures were Fryans, but that it was the time frame they existed in, surrounded and (edit to add: becoming) part of those various cultures yes, but not originating in any of them.

Which is possible, but then Haplogroup I hasn't been found in any of the genetics studies associated with the cultures you're trying to make connections with. So far the only viable samples were R1a1, R1b, F* and G2a3. None of which are remotely related to Haplogroup I.

Please cormac, understand I am not saying that the Fryans are any of those cultures, before you send me into complete hysterics.

Which shows that you don't understand what the study is saying. The results of the study are much like the results of triangulating a cell phone signal when one doesn't know where the person is. In "triangulating" the earliest use and spread of words/root-words it can be determined approximately where the origin point actually rests. This isn't a claim of "Neolithic farmers began speaking IE" as much as it's a claim of "the Indo-European language has been determined to have originated in Anatolia, which interestingly enough is the same geographical area from where Neolithic farmers sprang". One is not dependant on the other, which seems to be the problem you're having understand this.

Must have been that Marek Zvelebil didn't get it either, or not, but had a different take on this particular idea, like I have.

150 years and they can't even reconstruct a single well-formed PIE sentence.

As PIE was spoken by a prehistoric society, no genuine sample texts are available, but since the 19th century modern scholars have made various attempts to compose example texts for purposes of illustration. These texts are educated guesses at best; Calvert Watkins in 1969 observes that in spite of its 150 years' history, comparative linguistics is not in the position to reconstruct a single well-formed sentence in PIE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIE

Edited October 21, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Because fon means of - then you change the context to 'people of' or people from. It's not fone/vones for women lol - it's FON for 'of'.

I checked, there is no v words in Frisian - you have to go to F.

It's the same thing, (people OF) I'm not disagreeing with you.

fon

40, fan, afries., Präp.: nhd. von; ne. of

No, you should check BON or BAN in Old Frisian.

FON is Dutch VAN yes (or the German VON), But that is not the word here.

[cormac mac airt]

Please cormac, understand I am not saying that the Fryans are any of those cultures, before you send me into complete hysterics.

They didn't appear out of thin air. And if you're going to try to validate a 3rd/2nd millenium BC origin for them then they have to fit into the existing knowledgebase somewhere. The real question here IMO, is whether they are native to the Netherlands area or if they're immigrants like pretty much everyone else. So far there's not any evidence to substantiate the former, making the latter more likely.

Reconstructing PIE sentences was never the intent, explaining the origins of the oldest words/root-words as much as possible was. To add to this conundrum, no one in their right mind would believe that a language such as PIE would remain unchanged over a period of at least 4000 years. No other language on earth has done so. It's just as likely that as many languages, if not more, have gone extinct as remain today.

Must have been that Marek Zvelebil didn't get it either...

Too bad for him, it's not that hard to understand.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

No, you should check BON or BAN in Old Frisian.

FON is Dutch VAN yes (or the German VON), But that is not the word here.

How do you know? It says IngaeVONES.

Von/of is perfectly acceptable for vones. 'of Ingi', how do you think they get 'people of' if von is not of?

I gotta do bed, it's late and it's like I'm talking to brick walls here tonight. Goodnight.

[Van Gorp]

The word Ingvaeones, if translated to people of Yngvi - seems to have the - vae in Ingvae- part attached to Yngvi, so vones could not be a separate word in that word imo (Plinys)

Ingaevones could be Ingae+vones, but I don't see how Pliny's word could be, if the Ingvae is Ingvi.

vone in Frisian is actually relating to feminine - fone=famne

But fon is 'of' - 'von'.

Ingaevones = of Ingae/of Yngi

I am unsure how the v pops in Yngvi considering vones should be a separate word, which is 'of'.

Yes, PIE in action :-) From a Latin pen is looks that more exotic, but meaningfull in Dietsche spraak as always

(I wonder if Plinius knew what he was writing down, maybe he understood the local language :-).

Ingaeuones: In-Ga-Wonen: Living at the entrance (ingang)

Frisiabones: Vries-Af-Wonen: Vriezen who live seperated

[Abramelin]

How do you know? It says IngaeVONES.

Von/of is perfectly acceptable for vones. 'of Ingi', how do you think they get 'people of' if von is not of?

I gotta do bed, it's late and it's like I'm talking to brick walls here tonight. Goodnight.

If 'vones' is equal to 'von' or English 'of', then Ingaevones means nothing but 'of Ingae', like you said.

But 'vones' or 'bones' appears to mean a bit more than just 'of'.

[The Puzzler]

They didn't appear out of thin air. And if you're going to try to validate a 3rd/2nd millenium BC origin for them then they have to fit into the existing knowledgebase somewhere. The real question here IMO, is whether they are native to the Netherlands area or if they're immigrants like pretty much everyone else. So far there's not any evidence to substantiate the former, making the latter more likely.

Reconstructing PIE sentences was never the intent, explaining the origins of the oldest words/root-words as much as possible was. To add to this conundrum, no one in their right mind would believe that a language such as PIE would remain unchanged over a period of at least 4000 years. No other language on earth has done so. It's just as likely that as many languages, if not more, have gone extinct as remain today.

cormac

True and that's why the OLB language is different from Frisian today.

The real question is indeed, who were the people who were living in Frisia and the Netherlands and also Sweden, where they dominated the landscape (our Schoonland) in the Bronze Age - Iron Age, because current researches often place Frisia as being populated by Frisians around 700BC - who was living there prior to that, in Frisian coastal areas, where the North Sea has taken the land?

It's hard to find good info on this but I just dug this up - which I think is interesting for everyone here to read - it's a new continuing study into the coastal communities of Frisia in the Bronze Age, which I'll be checking out more thoroughly before I can tell you exactly who the Fryans were, because I do not have all the answers yet, this thread and my own research is a continuous study process to find out what these answers might be.

I'll add a couple of parts: (It's a bugger to cut and paste actually so go to the link) http://www.academia....rs_of_the_coast

Although there is ample evidence that in the Bronze Age (between

c.

2000 and 800 cal BC)coastal zones, estuaries and river areas along the North Sea coast were densely settled, agood understanding of coastal wetland communities in this period is lacking. For theMesolithic and Neolithic, habitation of wetlands is generally accepted since these economiesfocussed on hunting and gathering with additional farming (

e.g.

Louwe Kooijmans 2005).However, for the full farming communities of the Bronze Age this is much less evident,because - on first sight - brackish marshlands do not appear the best areas for farming.Therefore Bronze Age research and also its interpretative models have traditionally beenfocussed on dry-land archaeology.

These dry-land settlement models show a cultural landscape with dispersed farmsteads,burial mounds and urnfields and natural places used for deposition rituals. Approximatelyevery two generations farmsteads were abandoned and re-allocated at some distance of theoriginal farm (cf. Schinkel 1998; Roymans and Fokkens 1991). In the later part of the BronzeAge characteristic arable complexes developed (Celtic fields) that stayed in use until theRoman period (cf. Spek 2004). Burial mounds occur dispersed or were placed in groups, but did not seem to have been directly related to farmsteads (

e.g.

Bourgeois and Fontijn 2008).In the later Bronze Age urnfields dominated the burial ritual.

This model is widely used to describe the Bronze Age anywhere in north-western Europe.However, when we look at the evidence published so far from coastal wetlands and coastalcommunities in general, a different image emerges. Along the North Sea coast (Netherlands,NW-Germany, Denmark) clusters of houses, villages almost, developed with a long continuityof use (

e.g.

IJzereef 1988; Ethelberg 2000; Bech 1997). Arable plots were located directlynear the farms, incorporating also the scarce Middle Bronze Age burial mounds (cf. Bakker

et al.

1977; Bech 1997; Boas 1997; Buurman 1996; IJzereef 1988). Celtic fields were absentin the coastal areas, as well as urnfields and metal hoards. Moreover, from 1000 BConwards in West Frisia people started to raise

terp

mounds, a tradition that a few centenniallater would become a hallmark of habitation on the southern North Sea coast.

Edited October 22, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Seemingly, this Aldland sinking event takes place in 2193/2194BC.

But does it? All we really have is Hiddo's remark isn't it? How does Hiddo know by 1256 that Atland sunk 3,449 years ago? Could it be he is not actually precise because I'd like to know how he actually knows this.

Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256.

Hiddo, surnamed Over de Linda.—Watch.

[cormac mac airt]

True and that's why the OLB language is different from Frisian today.

The real question is indeed, who were the people who were living in Frisia and the Netherlands and also Sweden, where they dominated the landscape (our Schoonland) in the Bronze Age - Iron Age,because current researches often place Frisia as being populated by Frisians around 700BC - who was living there prior to that, in Frisian coastal areas, where the North Sea has taken the land?

~SNIP~

Perhaps, but that doesn't validate any claim to the origin of the Frisian language being c.4205 years old (c.2194 BC).

I would speculate that it was a combination of peoples of haplogroups R1a, R1b, I1 and I2a2 and not any one group that can be pidgeon-holed under the terms Frisian/Corded Ware Culture/Bell Beaker Culture/etcetra. In short, a melting pot of peoples who would predate any of the accepted cultures or ethnic names. Certainly nothing on which to hang the label of "Frisian" on.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Perhaps, but that doesn't validate any claim to the origin of the Frisian language being c.4205 years old (c.2194 BC).

I prefer to look at what could be rather what probably isn't. If there's a 1% chance, it's still a chance. Personally, despite everything I've read, which is actually alot, things you've said and all the rest of the 2 odd years here, I'm still not convinced that this area is not the PIE homeland.

I would speculate that it was a combination of peoples of haplogroups R1a, R1b, I1 and I2a2 and not any one group that can be pidgeon-holed under the terms Frisian/Corded Ware Culture/Bell Beaker Culture/etcetra. In short, a melting pot of peoples who would predate any of the accepted cultures or ethnic names.

cormac

I agree on this. Spose that's what I was trying to get across really, but as an origin type I'd have to go with I1 and/or I2a2 but also being mixed in over time with the other surrounding and incoming cultures and haplotypes.

The date given, 2193BC seems too early to me, so that's why I'm questioning it in an above post.

The article for farmers in Frisia, Bronze Age acknowledges these people seemed to have built the first terps, so I'd conclude they were most likely the Frisians who had been Fryans. Mentions are made of a pre-Celtic/pre-Germanic people, ie; Nordwestblock hypothesis, this is who I also think they are, so should be pigeonholed accordingly. Building up a picture of who it was that was inhabiting the coasts of Frisia up to Sweden also, to the end of the Baltic Sea toward Poland and all those who would have been part of their cultural beginnings, although many changed, as per the information in the OLB. We know of the Nordic Bronze Age in Scandinavia too, which I think shows something of the cultural time frame spoken of too.

Frya could have become Freya/Frigg, obviously a powerful female mother type, who has stuck within the Northern European culture, even to today - why couldn't she have been what it says in context of her being a wise mother type who gave her people laws and ethics to live by. Maybe it just seems all too real for me to flick it off as fiction.

[cormac mac airt]

I prefer to look at what could be rather what probably isn't. If there's a 1% chance, it's still a chance. Personally, despite everything I've read, which is actually alot, things you've said and all the rest of the 2 odd years here, I'm still not convinced that this area is not the PIE homeland.

I prefer speculating based on the evidence we do have, not on a "might have been". A 1% chance "for" still faces a 99% chance "against". You're free to believe what you want, but then you need to explain why the study effectively places the origin for same in Anatolia. These early Indo-European speakers didn't teleport to the Netherlands. Nor would this connect to the Frisians as a point/place of origin since they post-date Indo-European by several millenia.

The date given, 2193BC seems too early to me, so that's why I'm questioning it in an above post.

Considering that the four haplogroups I mentioned predate the OLB's date of c.2194 BC by millenia, then trying to find a specifically Frisian connection with any of them is much like finding a specific grain of sand at a local beach. By the time of the earliest actual Frisian evidence (1st millenium BC) these haplogroups would have given rise to many subgroups, so your single beach has already turned into multiple beaches.

The 2193 BC date is further called into question by this sentence part:

Five hundred and sixty-three years after the submersion of Atland—that is, 1600 years before Christ

So even in the same text the claim varies by 30 years. And still, there's not real support for either.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Seemingly, this Aldland sinking event takes place in 2193/2194BC.

But does it? All we really have is Hiddo's remark isn't it? How does Hiddo know by 1256 that Atland sunk 3,449 years ago? Could it be he is not actually precise because I'd like to know how he actually knows this.

Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256.

Hiddo, surnamed Over de Linda.—Watch.

Interesting thought......

If you doubt that date, then you must doubt the next too:

IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.

After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Italians in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.

On the largest of them was a king of the Jonischen Islands whose name was Ulysses, the fame of whose wisdom was great.To him a priestess had prophesied that he should become the king of all Krêkalands provided he could obtain a lamp that had been lighted at the lamp in Tex-land. For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troy, a town that the Krêkalandar had taken.

[Otharus]

I'll add a couple of parts: (It's a bugger to cut and paste actually so go to the link)

Wonderful, Puzzler. That made my day.

Here is the website of the ongoing research project:

http://www.westfrisia.com/

For copy/paste, I advise to paste into a TXT editor (like Notepad) first, then copy again into UM-post editor.

[Otharus]

http://www.westfrisia.com

from this site (my underlinings):

Archaeological research of coastal farming communities on the southern North Sea coast, 2000-800 BC

Farmers of the coast is a research project revolving around the thesis that Bronze Age coastal communities were thriving farming communities with their own cultural identity and with a central position in communication networks.

There is hardly a region thinkable that is better suited for studying prehistoric communities on the North Sea coast than the Netherlands. Not only was its location central in a traffic geographical sense, but also can the Netherlands boast of having one of the best preserved Bronze Age landscapes in north-western Europe: the fossil landscapes of West Frisia. Therefore the project focuses on these extensively excavated but poorly published archaeological sites as case study of coastal farming communities.

This research project is funded by the Dutch Science Foundation (NWO) and Leiden University. The project is based at Leiden University under direction of prof. Harry Fokkens.

[The Puzzler]

Interesting thought......

If you doubt that date, then you must doubt the next too:

IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.

After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Italians in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.

On the largest of them was a king of the Jonischen Islands whose name was Ulysses, the fame of whose wisdom was great.To him a priestess had prophesied that he should become the king of all Krêkalands provided he could obtain a lamp that had been lighted at the lamp in Tex-land. For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troy, a town that the Krêkalandar had taken.

Yes, I do actually, it's no secret on UM I think the Trojan War actually occurred around 900-800BC, I think I even started a topic on it once.

Edited October 22, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Wonderful, Puzzler. That made my day.

Here is the website of the ongoing research project:

http://www.westfrisia.com/

For copy/paste, I advise to paste into a TXT editor (like Notepad) first, then copy again into UM-post editor.