Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Mario Dantas]

Hello,

In spite of the speed with which this particular thread is constantly growing, whether by Abramelin’s prolific commentaries or someone else, i could not help to comment “en passant”, what i believe was Ior’s view about this specific term “ash tree”, or “askr tread”, supposedly, in an ancient “root” language.

Old Norse askr means "ash tree"

“The generally accepted meaning of Old Norse Yggdrasill is "Odin's horse", even with both the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda defining "Odin's Horse" to actually be Sleipnir instead. This conclusion is drawn on the basis that drasill means "horse" and Ygg® is one of Odin's many names. The Poetic Edda poem Hávamál describes how Odin sacrificed himself by hanging from a tree, making this tree Odin's gallows. This tree may have been Yggdrasil. Gallows can be called "the horse of the hanged" and therefore Odin's gallows may have developed into the expression "Odin's horse", which then became the name of the tree.[1]

Nevertheless, scholarly opinions regarding the precise meaning of the name Yggdrasill vary, particularly on the issue of whether Yggdrasill is the name of the tree itself. In the Prose Edda the tree is usually not just called Yggdrasil but askr Yggdrasils. Old Norse askr means "ash tree" and according to the inflectional system of Icelandic language askr Yggdrasils means "Yggdrasill's ash". Icelandic has the best preserved inflectional system of the Norse languages and the Prose Edda was also written in old Icelandic. These etymologies do though rely on a presumed but unattested *Yggsdrasill.[1]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

An interesting concept (among many) referred by him states that the word “ash tray” came from the term “ash tree” (a very long time ago). Trees, according to him, would be taken care of by a family during their whole lives and after the death of each member, a funeral pyre would then produce the “ash” for the “tree” so that the deceased could be absorbed by the roots and travel through the stem and finally, after reaching the branches and leaves, became one with the sun. It is also said that the Christians fiercely fought these “family trees” cultural heritage during the Crusades, in the north of Europe. According to Ior’s “root” sound system logic, letters had different meanings, thus, the letter Y stand for Yggdrasill, or ash tree (askr tread) and does look like a gallow or tree...

Having not read neither the entirety of this thread, nor the part(s) related with the OLB and the BS, i do not know exactly whether you have reached a conclusion regarding the importance and/or legitimacy of its (BS) role concerning language as a whole. In my opinion, most of the issues discussed here, only reach the surface of the real problem. The fact that the OLB refers to a great catastrophe, in which Atlantis sank, is probably the most important factor in this whole story, IMO.

We do not know that probably, once upon a time, the first humans gave meanings to letters, and that every modern language is really a reminiscence of this “root” language, a very logic sound system that was replicated orally for generations.

Sorry for being this off topic...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited October 25, 2012 by Mario Dantas

[Van Gorp]

...

Having not read neither the entirety of this thread, nor the part(s) related with the OLB and the BS, i do not know exactly whether you have reached a conclusion regarding the importance and/or legitimacy of its (BS) role concerning language as a whole. In my opinion, most of the issues discussed here, only reach the surface of the real problem. The fact that the OLB refers to a great catastrophe, in which Atlantis sank, is probably the most important factor in this whole story, IMO.

We do not know that probably, once upon a time, the first humans gave meanings to letters, and that every modern language is really a reminiscence of this “root” language, a very logic sound system that was replicated orally for generations.

Thnx for your input Mario.

My idea on this: 2 important factors indeed: the story and the language, both not in line with what is believed to be accepted. I for me find them evenso interesting.

One of the other important points in the story is the fact that a kind of original language is corrupted on purpose. Then what could that be? Because it would have had huge impact.

In this, OLB is not alone.

For the language: if OLB is a authentic narration of previous times: we should acknowledge that Latin/Greek are the true falsifications. Chicken or egg?

I came to that conclusion even without OLB or wordplay or accepted evidence :-)

Not sure if that can be achieved in general :-) Cuz the whole lot of classic etymology/worldview/mythology can be flushed too. And that can't be real.

So, little chance for acception by the lot but of no interest for my conclusions.

Concerning the story: Alewyn at least concluded for himself the legitimacy.

I think there can/will not be a definitive conclusion in this thread or anywhere else.

Cuz IMO it doesn't happen like this, even in 'general' accepted views as the Atlantis account of Plato I think everybody has still a different view.

Was that real? Is Plato real? Did it happen or myth? Where did it happen?

EDIT

There is 3rd important aspect of OLB (besides is the story real, is the language real)

-> in se, both can be real even if the manuscript is not authentic. But what is then THE most important, maybe different for anyone pondering on this.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Van Gorp

[The Puzzler]

I wonder if this is some mention of Frya, Finda and Lyda but unrecognisable...

In stanza 20, the völva says that from the lake under the tree come three "maidens deep in knowledge" named Urðr, Verðandi, and Skuld. The maidens "incised the slip of wood," "laid down laws" and "chose lives" for the children of mankind and the destinies (ørlǫg) of men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

[Otharus]

More about LOGA (flame), the probable origin of both LUX (the light) and LOGOS (the word).

~

Etymologisch dialectenwoordenboek (1996), A.A. Weijnen

TNZN - Taalatlas van Noord- en Zuid-Nederland

~

Westfries woordenboek (1984) Jan Pannekeet

(Dictionary of Westfrisian dialect)

loef, znw. de/'t

1. Loefzijde

2. Zwarte walm of aanslag van o.a. een petroleumlamp of -stel.

Zegsw. teugen de loef in strouke, tegen de haren in strijken.

- Teugen de loef in weze, tegen de draad in zijn, dwars zijn.

loeg, znw. 't. Verouderde variatie van loef 2.

loege, w.w. Verouderde variatie van loeve, zie aldaar.

loeve, w.w. Ook: walmen, loef afgeven. Vgl. loef. / 't Lichie loeft.

~

In OLB (original page/ line nrs.)

[010/25]

THJU LOFT WÀRT SWART ÀND NÍLOF FON TÁRA TO STIRTANE

[010/29]

BLIXEN SKRÉF AN.THÀT LOFT.RVM.. WÁK.

[012/11]

FJUWER THINGA SEND TO JVWE NOT JÉVEN.

MITH NÁMA. LOFT. WÉTER. LÁND ÀND FJUR.

[026/06]

SEND THÉR SVM THRVCH THENE FYAND FAT

ÀND KVMATH HJA TO BÀK

SA MOT MÀN HJAM FÉR FON THÀT KÀMP OF FORA.

HWAND HJA MACHTON FRY LÉTEN WÉSA BY ÀRGE LOFTUM

ÀND THAN NE MÜGON HJA HJARA LOFTA NAVT NI HALDA

ÀND TACH ÉRLIK BILÍWA.

[049/16]

LOFT WÀRTH ALTHUS DROV ÀND DIMME.

[068/30]

MIN.ERVA SÉIDE

HALD OF HWAND HIR IS THJU LOFT ÔLANGNE VRPEST

THRVCH THA PRESTERA.

[119/06]

THES NACHTES SKÁTON HJA BARN.PILA ANDA LOFT.

[201/19]

THÀT FOLK WÉRMITH HI WITH THA SALT.ÁTHUM THERA GOLUM KÀMPED HÉDE

HÉD.ER UT.A SAXANA.MARKUM LVKTH

MITH LOFTE FON GRÁTE HÉRA.RÁVE ÀND BUT.

Also: LOV / LOVE as used in OLB can be related.

~

(Sorry, no time for translations now, I have to go.)

[Abramelin]

I wonder if this is some mention of Frya, Finda and Lyda but unrecognisable...

In stanza 20, the völva says that from the lake under the tree come three "maidens deep in knowledge" named Urðr, Verðandi, and Skuld. The maidens "incised the slip of wood," "laid down laws" and "chose lives" for the children of mankind and the destinies (ørlǫg) of men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

According to the old Germanic belief there were three goddesses (or whatever they were) responsible for creating the web of our lives: the Norns.

Ever heard of Web of Wyrd?

[Van Gorp]

Maybe we can add Locus (location, space, open ruimte) besides Lux, Logos:

De loef afsteken is de wind uit de zeilen halen (wind).

De lof toezwaaien (wind).

Liefde en de be-lofte.

Het loof van de bomen (in de wind).

De lochting is de moestuin.

The loft is the open space. No fire without air.

http://taaldacht.nl/vergeten-woorden/

I can see now why the locker (open space or barrier) and the lock are linked in this opposite meaning (the loh, open space, lochting, het loof -> where the wind blows, no flame without wind, and the keyhole).

A luik locks the lok.

lock (n.1) "means of fastening," O.E. loc "bolt, fastening; barrier, enclosure," from P.Gmc. *lukan (cf. O.N. lok "fastening, lock," Goth. usluks "opening," O.H.G. loh "dungeon," Ger. Loch "opening, hole," Du. luik "shutter, trapdoor"). "The great diversity of meaning in the Teut. words seems to indicate two or more independent but formally identical substantival formations from the root."

Quite a connection you are bringing forth ...

[Abramelin]

An interesting concept (among many) referred by him states that the word “ash tray” came from the term “ash tree” (a very long time ago). Trees, according to him, would be taken care of by a family during their whole lives and after the death of each member, a funeral pyre would then produce the “ash” for the “tree” so that the deceased could be absorbed by the roots and travel through the stem and finally, after reaching the branches and leaves, became one with the sun. It is also said that the Christians fiercely fought these “family trees” cultural heritage during the Crusades, in the north of Europe. According to Ior’s “root” sound system logic, letters had different meanings, thus, the letter Y stand for Yggdrasill, or ash tree (askr tread) and does look like a gallow or tree...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

I posted about the Web of Wyrd, ruled by the three Norns in a reply to Puzzler.

The next is a way of depicting that web:

[Van Gorp]

According to the old Germanic belief there were three goddesses (or whatever they were) responsible for creating the web of our lives: the Norns.

Ever heard of Web of Wyrd?

Nice info.

That sounds like the karma of the east.

Vers van Boeddha over karma

Ik ben de eigenaar van mijn daden,

De erfgenaam van mijn daden,

Geboren door mijn daden,

Gerelateerd aan mijn daden.

En leef ondersteund door mijn daden.

Van elke daad die ik verricht,

Goed of slecht,

Daar ben ik erfgenaam van.

Zo zou een monnik steeds weer moeten reflecteren.

Boeddha (Anguttara Nikaya,I.87f)

I am the owner of my actions,

The heir to my actions,

Born by my actions,

Related to my actions.

And live supported by my actions.

Of every act I performed,

Good or bad,

I'm heir.

Thus a monk should always reflect.

[Van Gorp]

And if we let some literal (letter-lijk) feeling on 'wyrd' and worden (weer-doen)' as our faith (ge-lofte or ge-logte -> lot (loat ma gebeuren, weer-keer-lijk), we come the to the word 'logos' (lug-is).

Al keert weer, zelfs uw eigen woorden worden dan weer-heid. That's why it is called logical. All is logged with the logos. Alles staat vast dan. Locked.

War-boel (boiling, ga-ho's, gauw), War, Guerre, Gaar-bol, Weer boel -> Weer-leggen (war-log) en niets ligt vast. Geen logica hierin.

Garen spinnen, een Gordiaanse knoop -> ont-warren daarmee. Keert maar were.

[Otharus]

"Kelten En De Nederlanden Van Prehistorie Tot Heden", door Lauran Toorians.

Published by Peeters, Bondgenoten Laan 153, Leuven.

I bought it and am reading it. Very interesting!

Maybe we can add Locus (location, space, open ruimte) besides Lux, Logos [...]

From LOGA / LOGHA (flame/ fire) to LOGE (lodge, location, camp, place to live)

[048/15]

BUTA ÀND BIHALVA HÉDON VSA STJURAR ÀND KÁPLJVD MÉNI LOGE

ANDA HÉIND KRÉKELANDA ÀND TO LYDJA.

[Ottema/ Sandbach p.69]

Bovendien hadden onze zeelieden en kooplieden menige loods (factorij)

in de heinde Krekalanden (Italie) en in Lydia.

Moreover, our sailors and merchants had many factories

among the distant Krekalanders and in Lydia.

[059/30]

HI WROCHTE THAT TÜNIS BI THÉRE MVDE FON.T.FLÍ.MAR EN LOGE BVWA MACHTE.

[Ottema/ Sandbach p.85]

hij bewerkte dat Teunis bij de mond van het Flymeer een pakhuis bouwen mocht.

he induced Teunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymeer.

Ottema and Sandbach translated loods/ pakhuis and factory/ warehouse, but camp or lodge would have been correct too.

French: loger = to make a camp

English: lodge

Middle English: logge

A home, a place to stay (if only for a while) is a place with a fire, to stay warm and have light during the night.

Home is where the hearth is.

That is how LOGA (fire) became LOGE (camp, lodge).

Edited October 26, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

... Ior’s view ... an ancient “root” language.

...

Trees, according to him, would be taken care of by a family during their whole lives and after the death of each member, a funeral pyre would then produce the “ash” for the “tree” so that the deceased could be absorbed by the roots and travel through the stem and finally, after reaching the branches and leaves, became one with the sun. It is also said that the Christians fiercely fought these “family trees” cultural heritage during the Crusades, in the north of Europe. According to Ior’s “root” sound system logic, letters had different meanings, thus, the letter Y stand for Yggdrasill, or ash tree (askr tread) and does look like a gallow or tree...

Thanks for that, Mario.

Before I discovered the OLB, I learnt some basics of Ior's Bock Saga and this helped me much to understand and appreciate the OLB.

The topic would indeed deserve a seperate thread.

Whether one believes it's true or not, it inspires a whole new way of thinking about language.

Before I knew OLB and BS (I know only little bit about the latter), language and history did not make much sense to me. So I was more into the 'exact' sciences (mathematics, statistics, Dutch: WIS-KUNDE). But now I keep finding missing pieces of the puzzle and it has become a serial Aha-experience. The ultimate cognitive challenge.

[Abramelin]

Having not read neither the entirety of this thread, nor the part(s) related with the OLB and the BS, i do not know exactly whether you have reached a conclusion regarding the importance and/or legitimacy of its (BS) role concerning language as a whole. In my opinion, most of the issues discussed here, only reach the surface of the real problem. The fact that the OLB refers to a great catastrophe, in which Atlantis sank, is probably the most important factor in this whole story, IMO.

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Mario, we have discussed the sinking of Aldland, many times, but this thread is 900 pages long, so you may have nmissed it.

Another thing: this is not about Plato's Atlantis, and if you read the OLB, Aldland/Atland may not even be located in the Atlantic.

[Otharus]

Trees, according to him, would be taken care of by a family during their whole lives and after the death of each member, a funeral pyre would then produce the “ash” for the “tree” so that the deceased could be absorbed by the roots and travel through the stem and finally, after reaching the branches and leaves, became one with the sun.

... the letter Y stand for Yggdrasill, or ash tree (askr tread) and does look like a gallow or tree...

Such a (family) tree would have been the place to go with difficult questions, hence to ask.

[Otharus]

Home is where the hearth is.

What the hearth is for a house (the warming center), the heart is (or was thought to be) for the body.

heart - english

hjärta - swedish

hjarta - icelandic

hjerte - danish, norwegian

herz - german

hart - dutch

hert - frisian

HIRTA / HIRTE / HIRT- OLB

hearth - english

herd - german

haard - dutch

hurd - frisian

HÉRD - OLB

[The Puzzler]

Having not read neither the entirety of this thread, nor the part(s) related with the OLB and the BS, i do not know exactly whether you have reached a conclusion regarding the importance and/or legitimacy of its (BS) role concerning language as a whole. In my opinion, most of the issues discussed here, only reach the surface of the real problem. The fact that the OLB refers to a great catastrophe, in which Atlantis sank, is probably the most important factor in this whole story, IMO.

Regards,

Mario Dantas

It is important imo - Abe says we've discussed it endlessly but we still have no conclusion or evidence of where it was, so it's still open to discussion in my opinion, even if we have discussed it.

It could very well be Atlantis, even though the similarities seem to have no connection on the surface, except for a sinking of a land.

Just touched the surface is probably correct, even after all this time.

[Van Gorp]

Small intermezzo: i was just looking at the pictures of the original manuscript. Maybe allready mentionned but couldn't find so ...

Is it just me being puzzled about nothing at this late hour, but this looks rather strange. By a way a-typical when normally scrolling through sequential pages.

Anybody an idea (looks like page 73/74 is lying beneath page 47/48, twice)?

Otharus, has this somehow to do with your plans changing the sequence like you have said some weeks ago?

I couldn't get that fully i think.

[Abramelin]

It is important imo - Abe says we've discussed it endlessly but we still have no conclusion or evidence of where it was, so it's still open to discussion in my opinion, even if we have discussed it.

It could very well be Atlantis, even though the similarities seem to have no connection on the surface, except for a sinking of a land.

Just touched the surface is probably correct, even after all this time.

One of the main problems is that Atlantis sank 7000 years before Aldland/Atland did.

As you know - but Mario probably doesn't - is that the Finda, the original inhabitants of Aldland, claimed to have originated near the Himalaya (according to the OLB or the Friso/India/Punjab story.).

And they lived far away from the European Fryans, so it also could not have been Doggerland or Dogger Island, a stretch of land that was once connected with Europe (the later North Sea).

Plus the fact that Plato's Atlantian civilization was far more sophisticated than anything found on the bottom of the present North Sea rules out Doggerland.

[The Puzzler]

One of the main problems is that Atlantis sank 7000 years before Aldland/Atland did.

As you know - but Mario probably doesn't - is that the Finda, the original inhabitants of Aldland, claimed to have originated near the Himalaya (according to the OLB or the Friso/India/Punjab story.).

And they lived far away from the European Fryans, so it also could not have been Doggerland or Dogger Island, a stretch of land that was once connected with Europe (the later North Sea).

Plus the fact that Plato's Atlantian civilization was far more sophisticated than anything found on the bottom of the present North Sea rules out Doggerland.

Without bogging down in Atlantis, it would seem that the Egyptian priests exaggerated the time frame, or between Solon and Plato the time frame got bigger than it really was. Plato thought like this philosophically, that cultures had restarted after cataclysms, Atlantis should be a combination of both his philosophical ideas and the story he knew from Egypt.

You can say but Plato said that - but he also mentions many things that could only be in the Bronze Age. Should we choose one over the other that is more correct?

If anything, I'd go for his description, over the time frame, which has been shown to be impossible for the events described in Atlantis to have occurred.

As for the position of Aldland according to the OLB, again, seems odd to have it where it says, unless we imagine that Inka thought he'd arrive in Asia, also he knew where it was too, so the Fryans seem to have been there, which seems odd if it's in Asia, but I do understand what we have been over before in relation to it.

[Van Gorp]

Small intermezzo: i was just looking at the pictures of the original manuscript. Maybe allready mentionned but couldn't find so ...

Is it just me being puzzled about nothing at this late hour, but this looks rather strange. By a way a-typical when normally scrolling through sequential pages.

Knul, have you noticed this?

Knul, have you noticed this?

Dozens of pages about the alledged history and falsifications, now wat is your opinion about this aspect of the manuscript?

Anybody an idea (looks like page 73/74 is lying beneath page 47/48, twice)?

Otharus, has this somehow to do with your plans changing the sequence like you have said some weeks ago?

I couldn't get that fully i think.

[The Puzzler]

Maybe the Uyghurs of the Tarim basin then are the Magyars. I noticed in a You Tube video they build their tents exactly the same as Sami tents and have that same kinda look.

Also this is the area they place Noah's Flood in that map you showed as well as Google being full of reference to it, so it appears that this is where Aldland should be...

Uyghur even sounds abit like Magyar.

The flood might have occurred at the same time as the Great Flood of China as well, flooding both areas. http://en.wikipedia....at_Flood_(China)

BUT were the Uyghur in the Tarim basin back in 2193BC? Maybe not.... Finally it was expanded to an ethnicity, whose ancestry originates with the fall of the Uyghur Khaganate in the year 842 AD, which caused Uyghur migration from Mongolia into the Tarim Basin. http://en.wikipedia....i/Uyghur_people

An interesting this that happened though is this: This migration assimilated and replaced the Indo-Europeans of the region to create a distinct identity,^[17] as the language and culture of the Turkic migrants eventually supplanted the original Indo-European influences.

The whole things seems very political though: Uyghur activists identify with the Tarim mummies, but research into the genetics of ancient Tarim mummies and their links with modern Uyghurs remain controversial, both to Chinese government officials concerned with ethnic separatism, and to Uyghur activists concerned that research could affect their claims of being indigenous to the region.^[18][19] Victor Mair has stated that the Uyghur peoples arrived at the Tarim Basin after the Orkon Uighur Kingdom (present-day Mongolia) fell around 842 AD

Edited October 28, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland. The Western-looking academic elite have done all that they can to suppress it and academics that still contend that Finns have ‘Mongoloid origins’ are cast into the wilderness in a ferocious dispute.

Until very recently, Finns were encouraged to see themselves either as ‘eastern’ or at least ‘between east and west.’ It was in the 1790, when Sweden ruled Finland, that German anthropologist J. F. Blumenbach compared Finnish, Sami (the Arctic reindeer herders) and Mongolian skulls and concluded that the Finns were ‘mongoloid’ and not ‘white’ like the Swedes or Finland’s Swedish-speaking aristocracy. This was widely accepted and led to the Turanian theory – that both the Finns and Sami had originally come from the East – as well as strengthening the view, according to Finland-Swede sociologist Nina af Enehjelm, that Finns were somehow ‘other’ and even ‘inferior.’ The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and, there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic and Finnish behaviour patterns to those of the Japanese.

Finland-Swede linguist M. A. Castren added to this in 1840s when he investigated the Finnish language and tried to understand which languages were related to the seemingly isolated tongue. He found that Sami, Estonian and Hungarian were from the same family but so were a series of languages across Siberia such as Komi and Mari. And even languages like Mongolian and Greenlandic seemed to have a similar grammatical structure. This led to the ‘Migration Theory,’ arguing the Finns arrived in Europe from Mongolia around three thousand years ago and finally got to Finland 2000 years ago. The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim. Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’ Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes, more than any other European nation. Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/29132-are-the-finns-the-mongolians-of-europe/

[cormac mac airt]

Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland. The Western-looking academic elite have done all that they can to suppress it and academics that still contend that Finns have ‘Mongoloid origins’ are cast into the wilderness in a ferocious dispute.

Until very recently, Finns were encouraged to see themselves either as ‘eastern’ or at least ‘between east and west.’ It was in the 1790, when Sweden ruled Finland, that German anthropologist J. F. Blumenbach compared Finnish, Sami (the Arctic reindeer herders) and Mongolian skulls and concluded that the Finns were ‘mongoloid’ and not ‘white’ like the Swedes or Finland’s Swedish-speaking aristocracy. This was widely accepted and led to the Turanian theory – that both the Finns and Sami had originally come from the East – as well as strengthening the view, according to Finland-Swede sociologist Nina af Enehjelm, that Finns were somehow ‘other’ and even ‘inferior.’ The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and, there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic and Finnish behaviour patterns to those of the Japanese.

Finland-Swede linguist M. A. Castren added to this in 1840s when he investigated the Finnish language and tried to understand which languages were related to the seemingly isolated tongue. He found that Sami, Estonian and Hungarian were from the same family but so were a series of languages across Siberia such as Komi and Mari. And even languages like Mongolian and Greenlandic seemed to have a similar grammatical structure. This led to the ‘Migration Theory,’ arguing the Finns arrived in Europe from Mongolia around three thousand years ago and finally got to Finland 2000 years ago. The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim. Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’ Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes, more than any other European nation. Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.

http://www.chinahist...ians-of-europe/

The bold portion above is a complete fabrication on the part of whomever wrote it. Kittles, et al. actually say the following:

Although it is difficult to determine the level of variation that existed within the two founding lineages at the time of settlement, the two groups were unlikely to be homogeneous for their Y chromosomes. Estimates of the time of expansion for the two haplogroups reveal that haplotype A/49 predates haplotype B/49 in Finland. This is concordant with the high frequency and wide geographic distribution of haplotype A/49. The estimated expansion time for haplogroup A predates that for haplogroup B by almost 2,000 years. Although a mutation rate has recently been estimated for Y chromosome microsatellites (Heyer et al. 1997), the mutational variance has not been formally established. If we include this uncertainty along with others, such as the size, level of variation, and rate of growth of the founding populations, the 95% CIs for the time estimates are expanded further. Nevertheless, the expansion times are informative and provide clear support for separate foundings of the population. This is important because the founding of Finland about 2,000 years ago is the defining characteristic of the single-origin model. Our results argue against the single-origin model. Specifically, we find evidence that the initial group of settlers provided a substantial contribution (55%) to the present Finnish Y chromosome gene pool. These settlers were of Asian ancestry and were followed by a second, genetically distinct wave of settlers. This second group, possessing haplography B, may have arrived in Finland with the wave of agriculturists who shaped much of the genetic landscape of Europe (Sajantila and Paabo 1995). These estimates are consistent with archeological data that suggest that the first settlers were Uralic speakers who arrived ~4,000 years ago (Fodor and Czeizel 1991) and that a later group settled along the southern shores about 2,000 years ago (Luho 1976).

http://ac.els-cdn.com/S0002929707615390/1-s2.0-S0002929707615390-main.pdf?_tid=88cb7420-20a9-11e2-a34b-00000aab0f26&acdnat=1351392509_ae5c898884d5dac583317b8070a8d335

Nowhere in the above can it be misconstrued as saying the Finns are partially of Mongoloid origin. Even more recent genetic studies also invalidate such a claim.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Small intermezzo: i was just looking at the pictures of the original manuscript. Maybe allready mentionned but couldn't find so ...

Is it just me being puzzled about nothing at this late hour, but this looks rather strange. By a way a-typical when normally scrolling through sequential pages.

Anybody an idea (looks like page 73/74 is lying beneath page 47/48, twice)?

Otharus, has this somehow to do with your plans changing the sequence like you have said some weeks ago?

I couldn't get that fully i think.

Yes, we have noticed that several pages were lying on top of each other when they were photocopied.

But that is because of the one(s) doing the copying for their website, the one you yourself copied from.

[Abramelin]

Without bogging down in Atlantis, it would seem that the Egyptian priests exaggerated the time frame, or between Solon and Plato the time frame got bigger than it really was. Plato thought like this philosophically, that cultures had restarted after cataclysms, Atlantis should be a combination of both his philosophical ideas and the story he knew from Egypt.

You can say but Plato said that - but he also mentions many things that could only be in the Bronze Age. Should we choose one over the other that is more correct?

If anything, I'd go for his description, over the time frame, which has been shown to be impossible for the events described in Atlantis to have occurred.

As for the position of Aldland according to the OLB, again, seems odd to have it where it says, unless we imagine that Inka thought he'd arrive in Asia, also he knew where it was too, so the Fryans seem to have been there, which seems odd if it's in Asia, but I do understand what we have been over before in relation to it.

As has already been said, Aldland could mean nothing but the Old Land. It could be anywhere.

I just added what it is not, like Doggerland as you read about everywhere on the internet. It was Overwijn who started it in 1941. But Overwijn did suggest that the date of 2194 BC was a mythologial one, and he suggested the true date for the destruction of Aldland should havebeen 6250 BC, the date Doggerland got flushed down the drain. One of the problems with that is that Doggerland was close (and connected with) mainland Europe (and thus not equal to Aldland which was very far away from the Fryans in Europe), plus the fact that there are no mountains or volcanoes in Doggerland. The closest and most dangerous European volcanoes are the Laacher See volcano in Germany which last erupted in 12,900 BP or the ones in Iceland which did not erupt in either 2194 BC or 6250 BC.

And yes, the suggestion that Inka was a kind of Columbus who went west to find the Old Land in Asia had also been said. I know I even posted about Columbus actually thinking that Eden (the Old Land) was somewhere in Asia, but I'd have to look up that post again to be sure.

What kind of bugs me is that absolutely nothing is said about Aldland in the OLB. Only that it went down in 2194 BC, that it was the homeland of the Finda, and that the sailors called it "Atland".

After the destruction of Aldland the Finda came from the east to the Fryans through Twiskland (Germany), so wherever we are supposed to believe Aldland was once located, it could not have been in the Atlantic or the North Sea.

[The Puzzler]

The bold portion above is a complete fabrication on the part of whomever wrote it. Kittles, et al. actually say the following:

http://ac.els-cdn.co...3317b8070a8d335

Nowhere in the above can it be misconstrued as saying the Finns are partially of Mongoloid origin. Even more recent genetic studies also invalidate such a claim.

cormac

These settlers were of Asian ancestry - ok, not Mongoloid, but Asiatic ancestry, which I think Mongoloid used to be a common term for.

These estimates are consistent with archeological data that suggest that the first settlers were Uralic speakers who arrived ~4,000 years ago

It would be this group who are the incoming Magyar and Finns imo, going by the time frame of 4000 years ago.

The first mention of a Uralic people is in Tacitus's Germania,^[4] mentioning the Fenni (usually interpreted as referring to the Sami) and two other possibly Uralic tribes living in the farthest reaches of Scandinavia.

Uralic Urheimat: P. Hajdu has suggested a homeland in western and northwestern Siberia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages