Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

which is only 11 years off the time frame the people actually entered Fryas lands.

I find that odd too, the submersion of Aldland takes place 101 years before the migration into Fryas land, what took them so long I wonder. No one who arrived in Findas land could have been in the actual flood which submerged Aldland.

That would also mean these Finda did not come from the North Sea (Doggerland) or the Atlantic. Those that managed to stay alive had to sail to Europe if Aldland had been located in the North Sea or the Atlantic. I doubt it would have taken them more than a century. And it would have been a weird journey if they are supposed to have ended up to the east of Twiskland.

So even the long time it took the Finda to arrive east of Twiskland hints at them coming from the east by travelling on land, not the sea.

[cormac mac airt]

which is only 11 years off the time frame the people actually entered Fryas lands.

I find that odd too, the submersion of Aldland takes place 101 years before the migration into Fryas land, what took them so long I wonder. No one who arrived in Findas land could have been in the actual flood which submerged Aldland.

Only according to the OLB. There's no actual evidence of any "Great Flood" that would be relevant to a peoples who, genetically, had already been there for millenia.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Only according to the OLB. There's no actual evidence of any "Great Flood" that would be relevant to a peoples who, genetically, had already been there for millenia.

cormac

I don't really get your point in this post.

[The Puzzler]

That would also mean these Finda did not come from the North Sea (Doggerland) or the Atlantic. Those that managed to stay alive had to sail to Europe if Aldland had been located in the North Sea or the Atlantic. I doubt it would have taken them more than a century. And it would have been a weird journey if they are supposed to have ended up to the east of Twiskland.

So even the long time it took the Finda to arrive east of Twiskland hints at them coming from the east by travelling on land, not the sea.

Yes, I agree that Aldland is not Doggerland or in the Atlantic but east of Germany somewhere (start of Findas land) and it must have taken them 101 years to travel from Aldland, maybe stopping on the way and the people who arrived finally could not have been in the actual Flood.

[The Puzzler]

Does anyone think Fryans had been to Aldland or knew of it's existance prior to the submersion of the land?

Inka goes off to find if any high areas are still there and the sailors called it Atland, not Aldland, these references seem to indicate that the Fryans had been there or knew where it was.

[cormac mac airt]

I don't really get your point in this post.

Second millenium BC, there's no "Great Flood" in the North Sea nor the Black Sea nor the Caspian Sea nor the Persian Gulf nor has any evidence been shown of any kind of sea in the Tarim Basin. Yet we can see via genetics that the peoples involved in the story, both per the OLB as well as your speculation on the origin of the Finns, had been in the area for several thousand years before any such story would even take place. This speaks rather poorly to the OLB's validity at the earliest claimed times.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I'll concede that it seems Twiskland is probably Germany area, maybe larger in those days.

From there she went to the Lithauers (Face-hewers), so called because they always strike at their enemy’s face. The Lithauers are fugitives and banished people of our own race, who wander about in the Twisklanden. Their wives have been mostly stolen from the Tartars. The Tartars are a branch of Finda’s race, and are thus named by the Twisklanders because they never will be at peace, but provoke people to fight. She proceeded on beyond the Saxsenmarken, crossing through the other Twisklanders in order always to repeat the same thing. After two years had passed, she came along the Rhine home. Among the Twisklanders she gave herself out for a mother, and said that they might return as free and true people; but then they must go over the Rhine and drive the Gauls out of Frya’s south lands. If they did that, then her King Askar would go over the Scheldt and win back the land. Among the Twisklanders many bad customs of the Tartars and Magyars have crept in, but likewise many of our laws have remained. Therefore they still have Maagden, who teach the children and advise the old. In the beginning they were opposed to Reintja, but at last she was followed, obeyed, and praised by them where it was useful or necessary.

Among the Twisklanders there were two tribes who did not call themselves Twisklanders. One came from the far south-east, and called themselves Allemannen. They had given themselves this name when they had no women among them, and were wandering as exiles in the forests. Later on they stole women from the slave people like the Lithauers, but they kept their name. The other tribe, that wandered about in the neighbourhood, called themselves Franks, not because they were free, but the name of their first king was Frank, who, by the help of the degenerate maidens, had had himself made hereditary king over his people. The people nearest to him called themselves Thioth-his sons—that is, sons of the people. They had remained free, because they never would acknowledge any king, or prince, or master except those chosen by general consent in a general assembly. Askar had already learned from Reintja that the Twisklander princes were almost always at war with each other.

Just on this again, the Lithuaers - if this is the area of Lithuania they speak and these people wandered about in the Twiskland, again, one wonders how this could be Germany, unless Twiskland included Poland or Lithuaers were not actually in Lithuania at this time - and Alewyn has Twiskland in that area, near Lithuania.

Mention of the Juttar who collected amber on the Baltic shores, also seems to indicate the area of Fryans went at least to Poland.

Also Fryas land is said to go to the far end of the Baltic, if we say that is the East Sea.

Edited October 28, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Second millenium BC, there's no "Great Flood" in the North Sea nor the Black Sea nor the Caspian Sea nor the Persian Gulf nor has any evidence been shown of any kind of sea in the Tarim Basin. Yet we can see via genetics that the peoples involved in the story, both per the OLB as well as your speculation on the origin of the Finns, had been in the area for several thousand years before any such story would even take place. This speaks rather poorly to the OLB's validity at the earliest claimed times.

cormac

The link you gave said this: 4000 years ago, circa 2000BC that Uralic speakers arrived in Scandinavia.

These estimates are consistent with archeological data that suggest that the first settlers were Uralic speakers who arrived ~4,000 years ago (Fodor and Czeizel 1991) and that a later group settled along the southern shores about 2,000 years ago.

Edited October 28, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Just on this again, the Lithuaers - if this is the area of Lithuania they speak and these people wandered about in the Twiskland, again, one wonders how this could be Germany, unless Twiskland included Poland or Lithuaers were not actually in Lithuania at this time - and Alewyn has Twiskland in that area, near Lithuania.

Mention of the Juttar who collected amber on the Baltic shores, also seems to indicate the area of Fryans went at least to Poland.

Also Fryas land is said to go to the far end of the Baltic, if we say that is the East Sea.

This is how I saw the Fryan territory (and it could be extended along the east coast of the Baltic):

Yellow is Twiskland (and that area could also be extended somewhat eastward):

And this is how Alewyn saw it:

According to Alewyn the Fryans occupied all of Europe and northern Africa (his first map), but in Spain they only had Kadik (and you know where I think Kadik was located) and a colony in Crete, Greece and Tunisia and Lebanon. So I think he created a too large an area for the Fryans.

And he forgets that Scandinavians still call Germany by the name of Tuiskland.

North Frisian:

http://frr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tj%C3%BCschl%C3%B6nj

Norse:

http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyskland

Danish:

http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyskland

Swedish:

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyskland

.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Ok Abe, I see. So maybe the land that was in central Europe wasn't Fryan but along the edge of the Baltic was Fryan.

I found this name:

trans isalaniae domini

on this map: http://en.wikipedia....tfalen_1710.jpg

trans means in between, across or the opposite side.

This appears to me to be a Latin form of the word twiskland, as in 'in-between land'.

It's closer to Frisia than I'd imagine but seems to actually correlate with being 'hedged in' by the broad Twiskland.

Edited October 28, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Ok Abe, I see. So maybe the land that was in central Europe wasn't Fryan but along the edge of the Baltic was Fryan.

I found this name:

trans isalaniae domini

on this map: http://en.wikipedia....tfalen_1710.jpg

trans means in between, across or the opposite side.

This appears to me to be a Latin form of the word twiskland, as in 'in-between land'.

It's closer to Frisia than I'd imagine but seems to actually correlate with being 'hedged in' by the broad Twiskland.

Trans Isalanae is the Latin name for the Dutch province of Overijssel and it means 'on the other side (trans) of the river IJssel (Isala)'.

So it means anything but 'in between'.

'This side of the river IJssel' would be Cis Isalanae.

The area 'in between' would be called 'Inter-' and so on.

[The Puzzler]

Trans Isalanae is the Latin name for the Dutch province of Overijssel and it means 'on the other side (trans) of the river IJssel (Isala)'.

So it means anything but 'in between'.

'This side of the river IJssel' would be Cis Isalanae.

The area 'in between' would be called 'Inter-' and so on.

trans means in between, across or the opposite side. Therefore twisk which means in between should also mean across or opposite side too.

So twisk could really mean that too - in between is just one form of this word meaning - in between, opposite or across imo is what trans and twisk means.

Obviously the Dutch name for trans is OVER as in OverIJssel.

So, you don't think this area could be the start of Twiskland?

Interesting the Franks were wandering around in this Twiskland too.

[Abramelin]

trans means in between, across or the opposite side. Therefore twisk which means in between should also mean across or opposite side too.

So twisk could really mean that too - in between is just one form of this word meaning - in between, opposite or across imo is what trans and twisk means.

Obviously the Dutch name for trans is OVER as in OverIJssel.

So, you don't think this area could be the start of Twiskland?

Interesting the Franks were wandering around in this Twiskland too.

I don't know where you get that from, that Latin 'trans' could mean 'in between'.

The contrary of 'trans' is 'cis' (this side) so how could 'trans' mean in between?? Latin for in between is 'inter'.

A modern situation: Trans Jordan (= Jordan) and Cis Jordan (= West Bank area). On the other side (trans) of the Jordan river, and on this (cis) side of the Jordan river.

=

The Franks did wander around in Germany, for the simple reason they are the descendents of Frisians and Saxons who - when they moved to Gaul - again mixed with the Gauls.

.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I don't know where you get that from, that Latin 'trans' could mean 'in between'.

The contrary of 'trans' is 'cis' (this side) so how could 'trans' mean in between?? Latin for in between is 'inter'.

=

The Franks did wander around in Germany, for the simple reason they are the descendents of Frisians and Saxons who - when they moved to Gaul - again mixed with the Gauls.

.

Hmm, I sure I saw a reference to in-between lol, maybe I didn't. across, beyond, through. - Maybe I saw through as between, if you go through something, you generally go in between 2 things.

From Latin trns-, from trns, across, beyond, through; see ter-² in Indo-European roots.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trans-

To clarify also TWISK is 'between' not 'in-between'. twiskia is also separate or BURN - which is odd because Twiskland is said to have burned. http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-T.pdf - and it separated them from the Finda people.

twi-s-k-ia

3, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. brennen, scheiden, auseinandergehen; ne.

burn (V.), separate (V.);

Twiskland could have been named because it burned through there....?

It was not only in Finda’s land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes.

[cormac mac airt]

The link you gave said this: 4000 years ago, circa 2000BC that Uralic speakers arrived in Scandinavia.

These estimates are consistent with archeological data that suggest that the first settlers were Uralic speakers who arrived ~4,000 years ago (Fodor and Czeizel 1991) and that a later group settled along the southern shores about 2,000 years ago.

It also says the following:

The geographic distribution of haplotypes depicts separate and distinct routes into Finland for the two groups of settlers. Haplotype A/49 may have entered Finland from the Lake Ladoga region, whereas settlers possessing haplotype B/69 traveled across the Gulf of Finland and the Swedish border.

As you can see both points of origin are within the local geographical area (Northern Europe) and nothing suggests a remote origin point from anywhere far to the southeast.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Hmm, I sure I saw a reference to in-between lol, maybe I didn't. across, beyond, through. - Maybe I saw through as between, if you go through something, you generally go in between 2 things.

From Latin trns-, from trns, across, beyond, through; see ter-² in Indo-European roots.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trans-

To clarify also TWISK is 'between' not 'in-between'. twiskia is also separate or BURN - which is odd because Twiskland is said to have burned. http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-T.pdf - and it separated them from the Finda people.

twi-s-k-ia

3, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. brennen, scheiden, auseinandergehen; ne.

burn (V.), separate (V.);

Twiskland could have been named because it burned through there....?

It was not only in Finda’s land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes.

Actually...... a great find, Puzz !

You know, I checked the link to the Old Frisian dictionary, and thought that they sure must have made a spelling error, and that they printed "brennen" (burn) instead of "trennen" (separate).

So I checked the English-OldFrisian wordlist on that same site (because I did not expect them to make the same error twice):

burn (V.), bar-n-a 50 und häufiger, twi-s-k-ia 3, ur-bar-n-a 8

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

But how could a word -twiskia - that means "between" also mean "burn"??

Then I wanted to find a similar word in English, and I had to think of "dusk".

The 'etymologyonline' site didn't give much hope:

dusk (n.)

c.1200, dosk "obscure, to become dark," perhaps from O.E. dox "dark-haired, dark from the absence of light" (cognate with Swed. duska "be misty," L. fuscus "dark," Skt. dhusarah "dust-colored;" also cf. O.E. dosan "chestnut-brown," O.H.G. tusin "pale yellow") with transposition of -k- and -s-, perhaps via a Northumbrian variant (cf. colloquial ax for ask). But OED notes that "few of our words in -sk are of OE origin." A color word originally; the sense of "twilight" is recorded from 1620s.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=dusk&searchmode=none

Now the question is: which site to believe?

Because this is what the Wiktionary site gives:

From Middle English dosk, duske (adj., “dusky”), from Old English dox (“dark, swarthy”), from Proto-Germanic *duskaz (“dark, smoky”), from Proto-Indo-European *dhūs (cf. Old Irish donn 'dark', Latin fuscus 'dark, dusky', Sanskrit dhūsaras 'dust-colored'), from *dhū, dheu- 'to smoke, dust'.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dusk

Well, I can imagine that the "In-between" lands became somewhat "swarthy and smoky and dark" after it burned to sinders.

Dusk - Twisk - Tuisc - Tysk

I didn't find the Old Frisian word for 'dusk' yet.

[Abramelin]

No Old Frisian equivalent for the English word "dusk".

==

Let's try something else:

Old Frisian: thiustere (New Frisian: tsjuster)

http://www.etymologi...efwoord/duister

In Dutch 'duister'. In English 'darkness'

The site says that the -er is a later suffix, so the word would originally have been something like thiust (or Dutch 'duist')

Dang, and people thought that Tacitus 'Tuisto' was maybe a typo.

Tuisco = Tuisto

Between = Dark, swarthy, smokey

I know many will think 'dusk' is the period BETWEEN sunset and total darkness, but it's the moment total darkness sets in:

Twilight is the time between dawn and sunrise or between sunset and dusk, during which sunlight scattering in the upper atmosphere illuminates the lower atmosphere, and the surface of the earth is neither completely lit nor completely dark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight

Dusk is the beginning of darkness in the evening, and occurs after twilight, (during which the sky generally remains somewhat bright and blue). Civil dusk is when the earth has rotated enough that the center of the sun is at 6° below the local horizon. This marks the end of the evening civil twilight, the point where artificial illumination is required to read outside.[1] It can be confused with sunset, which is the point at which the earth has rotated enough that the sun is no longer visible from the local horizon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusk

It's interesting to note that 'duist-er' , Old Frisian 'thiust-er' is possibly related with the Russian word 'tusk' (= darkness, gloom).

For the Russians Germany, or 'Twiskland', is to the west, where the sun sets...

So we get something like this:

tusk (Russian) / dusk (English) / thiust (Old Frisian) / duist (Dutch) / twisk (Old Frisian) / tysk (Scandinavian) / Tuisco -Tuisto (Germanic supreme being).

+++

EDIT:

Btw, the Dutch etymology site suggests it - thiust/duist - might be a non-Indo-European substrate word.

And no, it's not found in either Finnish or Uralic.

.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Btw, the Dutch etymology site suggests it - thiust/duist - might be a non-Indo-European substrate word.

And no, it's not found in either Finnish or Uralic.

The Germanic substrate hypothesis is an attempt to explain the distinctive nature of the Germanic languages within the context of the Indo-European language family. It postulates that the elements of the common Germanic vocabulary and syntactical forms that do not seem to have an Indo-European origin show Proto-Germanic to be a creole language: a contact language synthesis between Indo-European speakers and a non-Indo-European substrate language used by the ancestors of the speakers of the Proto-Germanic language. The theory was first proposed by Sigmund Feist in 1932, who estimated that roughly a third of Proto-Germanic lexical items came from a non-Indo-European substrate and that the supposed reduction of the Proto-Germanic inflectional system was the result of pidginization with that substrate. The culture and tribes from which the substrate material originated continues to be a subject of academic debate and study. Notable candidates for possible substrate culture(s) are the Ertebølle culture, Funnelbeaker culture, Pitted Ware culture and the Corded Ware culture, but also the oldest cultures of northern Europe like the Hamburgian, the first distinct culture identified of this region.

http://en.wikipedia....rate_hypothesis

Hamburgian culture:

http://en.wikipedia....Hamburg_culture

A substratum or substrate (plural: substrata or substrates) is a language that influences an intrusive language that supplants it.

http://en.wikipedia....ics)#Substratum

.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Just for fun I reckon this word goes through to toast. (Also noting that twiskia meant burn)

thiust (Old Frisian)

thið-st-ere

4, afries., Adj.: nhd. düster, dunkel, unklar, zweifelhaft; ne. dark

(Adj.), unclear, doubtful; Vw

So, Abe - you think twisk and thiust are the same, meaning burn and dark? Tuisco/Tuisto's name then would not be misspelt, both are variants of twisk and thiust?

Could be, considering I always burn toast.

[The Puzzler]

The bold portion above is a complete fabrication on the part of whomever wrote it. Kittles, et al. actually say the following:

http://ac.els-cdn.co...3317b8070a8d335

Nowhere in the above can it be misconstrued as saying the Finns are partially of Mongoloid origin. Even more recent genetic studies also invalidate such a claim.

cormac

OK, I hear ya.

In fact, reminding myself of these enigmatic people reminded me how old they have been in Northern Europe - apparently in anatomical measurements, they are closest to Cro-Magnon.

Old Northern Europeans, Uralic language speakers, fair, tall and strong, all through the Baltic.

And Indo-Europeans are the incomers - so, what gives then I ask myself?

Who exactly are the Fryans and who are the Finns?

Going off to ponder for a while...

Edited October 29, 2012 by The Puzzler

[NO-ID-EA]

........just a question folks ?.............On Puzzlers map quite a few of the names start "Com" is this telling us that these people were incomers.....people that have "come"

here , or is it an abreviated comte,,,,,,,,,as i also see a couple starting "duc" .....presumably for "Dutchy " ?

also a few have the letters "sis " and " is " in the name ....a reference to " isis " or something else ??.......from over seas maybe .

[NO-ID-EA]

I was reading some General Charles Vallancey the other day ..... he seems to think that Magi could be an abreviation of Magogi......ie Gog..Magog.

Japhet.....Gomer.......Magog

Also some of the first coracle type boats ...ie wooden frames covered with skins were called scuth's in celtic, he seems to be intimating people who used these boats were eventualy called Scothi , he also thinks the same word scuths had the letter u changed to y , and these people became Scyths

Edited October 29, 2012 by NO-ID-EA

[The Puzzler]

I was reading some General Charles Vallancey the other day ..... he seems to think that Magi could be an abreviation of Magogi......ie Gog..Magog.

Japhet.....Gomer.......Magog

Also some of the first coracle type boats ...ie wooden frames covered with skins were called scuth's in celtic, he seems to be intimating people who used these boats were eventualy called Scothi , he also thinks the same word scuths had the letter u changed to y , and these people became Scyths

I've heard that much on Magog connections I tend to disregard them, but there could be something in it. The Scyths though, were not really boat users, as far as I know, being horsemen, so would be unsure why the words Scyths would come from such a description.

This is interesting though: Johannes Magnus (1488–1544) stated that Magog migrated to Scandinavia (via Finland) 88 years after the flood, and that his five sons were Suenno (ancestor of the Swedes), Gethar (or Gog, ancestor of the Goths), Ubbo (who later ruled the Swedes and built Uppsala), Thor, and German

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magog_(Bible)

The Magyar migrated to Scandinavia via Finland 101 years after the OLB Flood and proceeded to embed themselves as kingly priests.....somewhat similar.

There is also a medieval Hungarian legend that says the Huns, as well as the Magyars, are descended from twin brothers named Hunor and Magor respectively, who lived by the sea of Azov in the years after the flood, and took wives from the Alans.

Josephus identified the offspring of Magog as the Scythians, a name used in antiquity for peoples north of the Black Sea.^[1] According to him, the Greeks called Scythia Magogia

Magog, one of the 7 sons of Japeth, son of Noah.

[Abramelin]

If you people like that stuff, then read what I posted long ago:

Chronicles of Eri : being the history of the Gaal Sciot Iber: or, the Irish people (1822)

Author: O'Connor, Roger, 1762-1834

http://archive.org/stream/chroniclesoferib01ocon#page/n9/mode/2up

And read about Magh Og and Og-eig-eis, among many others.

[Abramelin]

So, Abe - you think twisk and thiust are the same, meaning burn and dark? Tuisco/Tuisto's name then would not be misspelt, both are variants of twisk and thiust?

Could be, considering I always burn toast.

Yep, that was what I thought: burn, dark, swarthy, smokey.... and between.

===

Now 'all' the archeologist will have to do is find the remnants - like thick layers of charred wood - of large burnt forests all over Germany.

And, of course, of the same age: ca. 4200 years old.

.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Abramelin