Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Otharus]

That is because they found stones with that name inscribed on it, and with THAT spelling.

So you are a spelling fetishist.

Words have many spelling varieties in NW Europe, and they may sound different, but it's the (logical) meaning that counts.

Specially vowels are very variable.

So there is no difference between cananefates, canenefates or caninefates.

"bones of rats, squirrels, beavers, sparrows and so on"

As long as I have not seen a good study about those bones of other small animals, I will not simply accept it.

And I know why: because it contradicts what you prefer to believe.

I am more skeptical then you are.

[Abramelin]

Good.

Then I will look for that paper and post it here.

[Otharus]

I assumed it was general knowledge the Romans introduced rabbits in NW Europe.

We make a distinction between rabbits and hares, but many people will not know the difference.

What if KANINA referred to what we call hares (Dutch: haas, plur. hazen)?

(I don't think so, but it would be possible.)

European hare range (wiki/European_hare)

Brown: native

Red: introduced

Rabbit:

Hare:

Edited November 2, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

This is not a complete list, but it provides a good idea of varieties of the word for rabbit:

kinnen - scottish

kanínur - icelandic

kaniner - swedish

kanin - german, norwegian, danish

kniende - nethersaxon

knoin - westfrisian

konijn - dutch

k(e)nyn - frisian

keun - westflemmish

coniglio - italian

cuniculus - latin

kounéli - greek

conill - catalan

conejo - spanish

coelho - portuguese

The map makes it more visual:

That the English introduced the rabbit into Australia makes sense, but that the Romans would have done that in NW-Europe does not.

There is less variety of the word in N-Europe, than there is in the south.

So it is more likely that the south got the word (the concept) from the North, not the other way around.

(Why do the French, a Latin country, say "lapin"?)

[Van Gorp]

This is not a complete list, but it provides a good idea of varieties of the word for rabbit:

kinnen - scottish

kanínur - icelandic

kaniner - swedish

kanin - german, norwegian, danish

kniende - nethersaxon

knoin - westfrisian

konijn - dutch

k(e)nyn - frisian

keun - westflemmish

coniglio - italian

cuniculus - latin

kounéli - greek

conill - catalan

conejo - spanish

coelho - portuguese

The map makes it more visual:

That the English introduced the rabbit into Australia makes sense, but that the Romans would have done that in NW-Europe does not.

There is less variety of the word in N-Europe, than there is in the south.

So it is more likely that the south got the word (the concept) from the North, not the other way around.

(Why do the French, a Latin country, say "lapin"?)

Thnx for clearifying Otharus.

I must think at "bugs bunny" (the bun) and our beun-haas :-)

Lapin, possibility is again loop-in

(as with gaen-in, kan-in, also kan as kind of bowl, hole)

-> kan (gaat) dat er in? ja, kan(gaat) in :-) -> kanin, konijn

[Otharus]

Lapin, possibility is again loop-in

... as with gaen-in, kan-in -> kanin, konijn

Yes, I agree, that makes sense.

Thanks VG.

(maar voor kan-in zou ik de tussenstap gaan weglaten; hij kan erin, loopt erin)

Do you have any associations to the Fire-Four (Fjur - Fjuwer: tetrahedron) connection?

Edited November 2, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

SICAMBRI

seak - english

sykje - frisian

Why can Sicambri not simply mean 'seak-amber' ~ amberseakers?

BAT-HAVA

KANINE-FATA

SIK(A)-AMBER

=> always a verb and a noun.

[Abramelin]

Rabbits:

Range Description:

Original distribution after last ice age included Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) to western France and northern Africa, and the introduction throughout western Europe is thought to have occurred as early as the Roman period (Gibb 1990, Mitchell-Jones et al. 1999).

http://www.iucnredli...details/41291/0

We make a distinction between rabbits and hares, but many people will not know the difference.

What if KANINA referred to what we call hares (Dutch: haas, plur. hazen)?

(I don't think so, but it would be possible.)

Domestication of the European rabbit rose slowly from a combination of game-keeping and animal husbandry. Among the numerous foodstuffs imported by sea to Rome during her domination of the Mediterranean were shipments of rabbits from Spain.[2] Romans also imported ferrets for rabbit hunting, and the Romans then distributed rabbits and the habit of rabbit keeping to the rest of Italy, to France, and then across the Roman Empire, including the British Isles.[3] Rabbits were kept in both walled areas as well as more extensively in game-preserves. In the British Isles, these preserves were known as warrens or garths, and rabbits were known as coneys, to differentiate them from the similar hares (a separate species).

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Cuniculture

The domestication of the major livestock species (cattle, sheep, pigs) and the small species (poultry) is lost in the dawn of prehistory. But rabbit domestication dates back no further than the present millenium.

Indeed, the wild rabbit Oryctolagus cuniculus of southern Europe and North Africa is thought to have been discovered by Phoenicians when they reached the shores of Spain about 1000 BC. In Roman times the rabbit was still emblematic of Spain. The Romans apparently spread the rabbit throughout the Roman Empire as a game animal. Like the Spaniards of that time, they ate foetuses or newborn rabbits, which they called laurices.

http://www.fao.org/d...0E/t1690e03.htm

Rabbit meat consumption is a secular custom in the Mediterranean area. It goes back to 1000 BC when Phoenicians are said to have discovered wild rabbits in North Africa and Spain and the Romans spread them throughout their empire.

http://users.tamuk.e...dl00/role1.html

Rabbits not being native to northern Europe, there was no Germanic or Celtic word for them.

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

SICAMBRI

seak - english

sykje - frisian

Why can Sicambri not simply mean 'seak-amber' ~ amberseakers?

BAT-HAVA

KANINE-FATA

SIK(A)-AMBER

=> always a verb and a noun.

Who knows, but the OLB uses this word: SEKÆMPAR

And the OLB doesn't use the word AMBER at all:

Thêra tham saton biâsten tha Dênemarka wrdon Juttar hêton, uthâvede hja tomet navt owers ne dêdon as barn-stên juta.

Those who were settled to the east of Denmark were called Jutten, because often they did nothing else than look for amber on the shore.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

voor kan-in zou ik de tussenstap gaan weglaten; hij kan erin, loopt erin

At second thought, there might be an etymological relation to NYN-DISK/ -DASK (see below); KA-NYN or KAN-NYN.

In that case only the Dutch, German and Scandinavian versions of the word have remained 'pure'.

(Abe well done, I'm still examining your links.)

[008/26]

SACH HJU EN NYNDASK EN SPINNE VRSLYNNA

[O+S p.15]

Zag zij een hagedis eene spin verslinden

If she saw a lizard swallow a spider

[166/30]

FORTH SIND THÉR ÔLLERLÉJA SLACHT FON HÁCH-DISKA. NYN-DISKA ÀND Á-DISKA

[O+S p.225]

Voorts zijn daar allerlei soort van hagedissen, schildpadden en krokodillen

There are, besides, all sorts of lizards, tortoises, and crocodiles

~~

The words HÁCH-DISK, NYN-DISK and Á-DISK are not known from Oldfrisian texts and dictionaries (as far as I know).

The term "nijdas" is known from oldschool Dutch in use for someone with a nasty character, and the word was associated with "hagedis" (lizard).

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...emmodern=nijdas

http://www.etymologi...refwoord/nijdas

Edited November 3, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

Who knows, but the OLB uses this word: SEKÆMPAR

And the OLB doesn't use the word AMBER at all

Good points.

I had not thought of that.

[Van Gorp]

Yes, I agree, that makes sense.

Thanks VG.

(maar voor kan-in zou ik de tussenstap gaan weglaten; hij kan erin, loopt erin)

Do you have any associations to the Fire-Four (Fjur - Fjuwer: tetrahedron) connection?

Hi Otharus,

Platonic solids are a bit too platonic for me to get a grip on at the moment.

But concerning Fire-Four and the 4 phUr-Elements, I wondered about the fact that the fourth (and highest element) is the ever extending fire.

Vuur-Phur: brandschoon, pure (see burning ritual for cleansing), zuiver, sauber, super pure.

Along with the swastika (symbol of the sun, and the sun burns -> see burning wheel) we can see in that symbol 4 times 4. The 4 pure elements.

If we see that purusha is the unlimited conscience of the burning flame within, it is clear for me that vier-vuur-phuur (four-fire-pure) are related.

Pyro-maan, vuure-man.

On top, if we take pride-> zijn we fier -> we glimmen -> and vieren (celebrating) was done around the fire

[Abramelin]

They knew hares:

hare (N.), *has-a

http://www.koeblerge...h/ne-afries.pdf

I have read on several sites that the rabbit was introduced in the Netherlands and Belgium during the middle ages, so that's even centuries after Roman times:

http://www.iselinge....en/konijnen.htm

http://www.kustgids....onijn/index.htm

http://www.schoolbie...nderwijsniveaus)/natuur_en_techniek/dieren/het_konijn_ov_46_

http://www.natuurinf...nl/i000201.html

http://www.dierenfor...d=19&web_id=682

Apparently the Romans did take them along as food source and pets, but did not set them free.

=

And it's interesting that there is no Old Frisian (= middle ages) word for rabbit, a word with KNN as stem.

The oldest attested form of the word, "CONIN" is from Old French (1160) which is derived from Latin (or Franconian)

The earliest form in Middle Dutch is from 1240: cunin or conijn.

And many suggest it is a non_IE word, probably from the Basque (Iberian) language.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/konijn

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

If indeed there would not have been any rabbits at all in NW Europe, then OLB's story in which Jon left with rabbit-skins as trading good, ca. 1600 BCE, would be suspicious.

But I am not convinced yet. I will reply to Abe's arguments and explain in a separate post.

First here's something I found.

From: A Dictionary of English Etymology by Hensleigh Wedgwood (1872)

abbreviations:

Boh. - Bohemian or Czech.

Dief. - Diefenbach (Gothischen Sprache 1851)

Du. - Dutch

G. - German

It. - Italian

Kil. - Kiliaan (Teutonic-Latin dictionary 1599)

Lat. Latin

N. - Norwegian or Norse

ON. - Old Norse, Icelandic

W. - Welsh

[Abramelin]

If indeed there would not have been any rabbits at all in NW Europe, then OLB's story in which Jon left with rabbit-skins as trading good, ca. 1600 BCE, would be suspicious.

But I am not convinced yet. I will reply to Abe's arguments and explain in a separate post.

First here's something I found.

From: A Dictionary of English Etymology by Hensleigh Wedgwood (1872)

abbreviations:

Boh. - Bohemian or Czech.

Dief. - Diefenbach (Gothischen Sprache 1851)

Du. - Dutch

G. - German

It. - Italian

Kil. - Kiliaan (Teutonic-Latin dictionary 1599)

Lat. Latin

N. - Norwegian or Norse

ON. - Old Norse, Icelandic

W. - Welsh

Your screenshot mentions Pliny saying the word is Spanish, meaning: Iberian.

[Otharus]

Browsing through the Dictionary of English Etymology (Hensleigh Wedgwood, 1872), I found something noteworthy, possibly related to the notorious two-letter-word (OD).

... a point... sticking up?!

I can see how that will have made the three primal mothers pregnant. LOL

[Otharus]

Your screenshot mentions Pliny saying the word is Spanish, meaning: Iberian.

Yes:

"The name is said by Pliny and other writers..."

But Wedgwood added that "... through the Latin it seems to have spread to the Germanic and Celtic stocks."

He does not say he agrees with Pliny. In fact, he leaves room for doubt.

(I will be back later.)

[Abramelin]

Yes:

"The name is said by Pliny and other writers..."

But Wedgwood added that "... through the Latin it seems to have spread to the Germanic and Celtic stocks."

He does not say he agrees with Pliny. In fact, he leaves room for doubt.

(I will be back later.)

As you have read, I did not just use etymology, but also ancient history and paleobiology.

About every paleobiologist agrees with rabbits spreading from Iberia to all over Northern Europe, most often with the help of the Romans.

I lost the link, but before the last ice age rabbits were all over Europe, and when the ice sheets started moving south, they ended up in Iberia and Northern Africa.

[Abramelin]

The idea that the name "Caninefaten" was connected with rabbits ("konijnen") was apparently well established in the 19th century:

Onze voorouders in verschillende taferelen geschetst. Deel 1

(Our ancestors sketched in different scenes. Part 1)

Jacob van Lennep, 1838.

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/lenn006onze01_01/lenn006onze01_01.pdf

Van Lennep portrays them as wearing rabbit skins. and that their tribal name was derived from these rabbits.

(Enter "konijn" as keyword in the pdf).

And of course all based on nothing but the name "Caninefaten".

[Van Gorp]

As you have read, I did not just use etymology, but also ancient history and paleobiology.

About every paleobiologist agrees with rabbits spreading from Iberia to all over Northern Europe, most often with the help of the Romans.

I lost the link, but before the last ice age rabbits were all over Europe, and when the ice sheets started moving south, they ended up in Iberia and Northern Africa.

But no ancient history/paleobiology was then used correctly to term Hispania by the name of rock badgers when they saw rabbits :-).

So when tracing the origin of names, you can take into account that names are used accross the fixed meaning as we give them now.

Rabbit(rapide), Haas (hurry), Konijn (cunny), Bun, Das (d'haas), Badger, Hare, Lapin (loop-in) it's all alike and given similar names.

If a das goes underground then they could call it also a kan-in. And when taking the pels, you have a nice and soft 'das' around your neck.

[Abramelin]

But no ancient history/paleobiology was then used correctly to term Hispania by the name of rock badgers when they saw rabbits :-).

So when tracing the origin of names, you can take into account that names are used accross the fixed meaning as we give them now.

Rabbit(rapide), Haas (hurry), Konijn (cunny), Bun, Das (d'haas), Badger, Hare, Lapin (loop-in) it's all alike and given similar names.

If a das goes underground then they could call it also a kan-in. And when taking the pels, you have a nice and soft 'das' around your neck.

Paleobiology has shown no rabbits were around in Northern Europe after the end of the last ice age and before the middle ages. Even the stem KNN is said to be of non-IE origin. And that may be because of what Pliny said or the Phoenicians, but it has been confirmed by modern paleobiologists.

Of course the first rabbit skeleton found in Northern Europe of 2, 3 or more millenia old will discredit that theory.

[Van Gorp]

Paleobiology has shown no rabbits were around in Northern Europe after the end of the last ice age and before the middle ages. Even the stem KNN is said to be of non-IE origin. And that may be because of what Pliny said or the Phoenicians, but it has been confirmed by modern paleobiologists.

Of course the first rabbit skeleton found in Northern Europe of 2, 3 or more millenia old will discredit that theory.

Yes, let's assume that to be true: no rabbits (the little animals) as we call them now were found in Northern Europe before middle ages.

But other animals dugging holes and pipes can be called also kan-in (as rabbits were called badgers in Spain).

But the term 'Kan' http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/kan1, is used for pipewise recipient in Dutch.

"...dus uit het Germaans in het Laatlatijn" ... "Een aannemelijke Germaanse etymologie is echter op geen enkele manier te geven en aanknopingspunten buiten het Germaans ontbreken eveneens."

So: difficult origin for 'Kan' for the specialists, but let us help them with a possible Germanic meaning: Ga-In.

As we see more 'g', 'ch', 'c' and 'k' are often alike in different pronounciations during time (bv like in chaos, Caesar, guest, chat&kat)

In short: what if a KAN-IN was anything that dug holes/pipes in the ground?

For me a possibilty (besides the history of the particular animals as we we call them now konijn).

[Abramelin]

So a badger, a mouse, a rat, a vole, a mole, and a rabbit would all get the same name? Or at least similar sounding names?

They are all burrowing animals.

[Van Gorp]

So a badger, a mouse, a rat, a vole, a mole, and a rabbit would all get the same name? Or at least similar sounding names?

They are all burrowing animals.

Mouse and rats are smaller but among them you can see also a link arround to nibble/fret/mouth. Muso (It) ->muil, nibble.

Mole lives more underground but digs with his moel, mullen (omwoelen), mollen (in de grand begraven).

Rat/mouse in sanskrit is also pointing to steal, to nibble.

Muizenissen hebben -> zich opfretten -> dat knaagt aan u

[Abramelin]

Mouse and rats are smaller but among them you can see also a link arround to nibble/fret/mouth. Muso (It) ->muil, nibble.

Mole lives more underground but digs with his moel, mullen (omwoelen), mollen (in de grand begraven).

Rat/mouse in sanskrit is also pointing to steal, to nibble.

Muizenissen hebben -> zich opfretten -> dat knaagt aan u

So why does the rabbit, another burrower, get a general name which, according to you, means something like 'to go in', while all the others get more specific names?

Btw, a mole doesn't dig with it's head or mouth, but with its claws.

Like I said, this play with words can be fun, but for proof of anything you will need other sciences. Remnants of voles, moles, beavers, badgers. rats and mice of 3500 years old - Jon's story in the OLB - have been found, but not of rabbits.