Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[The Puzzler]

Considering the Batavians lived on what Caesar and Tacitus both called an island, it is well possible.

But as far as I know, the Batavians were not known to be seafarers (sea raiders) like the Chaucians, the eastern neighbours of the Frisii at the NW coast of present-day Germany (Eastfriesland).

Well, I guess we all - Van Gorp, Otharus, you and me - have our preferred translations.

I wouldn't be surprized that the Batavians may even have gotten their name from the Romans, and that their name derives from Latin battuere, "to beat, to strike".

They were once respected allies of the Romans.

Fair enough, I don't think they have to be sea farers - just the area they lived in was a boat haven.

We have places in Australia, very common to have haven at the end of it as a kind of protection harbour area, the Shoalhaven area is a well known one. It depends I guess, who actually named them as to what language the name might derive from.

[The Puzzler]

am enjoying the chronicles of Eri ..Abe , i understand why you mentioned it could have been the sort of book that may have been used to compose oera linda .......the law

to treat others as you would have them treat you , and never to be the ones to invade others territory , but always to come together to defend your own , rings some bells ,

among other things.

the tribe named the agyges , described as an auxiliary force of horsemen affiliated to the og-eag-eis , i wonder if this is where the childish name for horse comes from

here they are called gee-gee's when talking to young kids

Also if this history is true and these people came in a horde from Spain well before the Romans , they could have been the ones to bring back the Coneys (Rabbits)

Yeah, gee-gee's. Interesting connection.

[cormac mac airt]

Is it correct that all the dates of the tales mentionned are derived from the date Atland was sunken (being 2193 BC, mentionned once by Hidde in 1256 AD)?

Liko does not mention it i see.

That's pretty much the case. All other dates depend on it.

cormac

[Otharus]

First attempt in trying to figure out the pronunciation of vowels in OLB.

[Otharus]

Some more notes on the OLB sound-system.

[Otharus]

Vuur-Phur: brandschoon, pure (see burning ritual for cleansing), zuiver, sauber, super pure.

Along with the swastika (symbol of the sun, and the sun burns -> see burning wheel) we can see in that symbol 4 times 4. The 4 pure elements.

If we see that purusha is the unlimited conscience of the burning flame within, it is clear for me that vier-vuur-phuur (four-fire-pure) are related.

Pyro-maan, vuure-man.

On top, if we take pride-> zijn we fier -> we glimmen -> and vieren (celebrating) was done around the fire

Hi VG, sorry for the delay.

Yes to me the fire - pure (πυρά ~ πυρ) connection is obvious too.

It is shocking that official etymologists don't seem to acknowledge this.

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/puur

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pure

Edited November 5, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

I did not just use etymology, but also ancient history and paleobiology.

Abe, did you find a study claiming that bones of other small animals (no rabbits or hares) were found in the Netherlands from pre-Roman times?

[Otharus]

About Dutch/Flemish: indeed a pitty that the 'Algemeen Bijgeschaafd Nederlands' was inforced to diminish the local dialects, but they still exists and some sound pretty much as OLB.

Exactly!

Latin has been a lingua 'franca', later Frankish/ French and now it's English.

The good thing is, that after the empires collapse, people will not like to speak that language any more and use their own dialects again, although some new words may stay as souvenirs, while some old words will have been lost.

[Otharus]

For the replacements: that doesn't explain for example the deplaced/double story of Willebrord and the veneration of him in North of France.

Either he entered in Holland or in North of France.

And boarding in Holland to go lateron to the south (where the crossing of the channel was much easier) does not make any sense.

Exactly!

At the other hand, the Dutch rivers go very deep inland...

The low lands are a river delta.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

A possibility concerning the Caninefates which comes into my mind, and connection to KANINA and 'konijnen' could be as follows.

Root "Kan" (like in Latin "canna", Spanish "cañón", kano, kanaal, Can-yon, think 'kenien' in our dialect :-) is just pointing to a long hollow tube.

This is prety obvious i think, hence also the name for animals doing just that.

Btw canis: idem dito, hondje in zijn rieten mandje (kanneke) :-)

That totally makes sense!

Small dogs were used to enter fox- and rabbit- holes etc.

Latin: caninus and Old-German: kaninisk = doggish, dog-like

[Otharus]

Back to the Batavians: could their name not mean something like 'warriors'?

Here's why:

... Baduhenna appears to be a goddess of war

...Germanic *badwa-, battle

... O.E. beatan "inflict blows on, thrash"

... battle (n.) c.1300, from O.Fr. bataille

... batter (v.) "strike repeatedly, beat violently and rapidly,"

... bat (n.1) "a stick, a club,"

...Batavi as the bravest of the tribes of the area, hardened in the Germanic wars

First of all, the best names are ambiguous ones, ones that have several meanings.

But this one indeed makes much sense too me, and I was also thinking about Boudicca, a queen who lead a war against the Romans.

When at war, the fighters need a strong name to scream, something that gives them power.

Similar is why Wodin, Wotan is a good name for war; it has "wut" (dutch woede; rage anger) in it.

[Otharus]

Is it correct that all the dates of the tales mentionned are derived from the date Atland was sunken (being 2193 BC, mentionned once by Hidde in 1256 AD)?

Yes it is the only time two counting systems are combined.

That it will at least roughly be right, can be seen from other stories, for example Buda/Yes-us (6th C. BCE), Alexander (ca. 300 BCE).

[Otharus]

At second thought I think the sound here is more like Dutch "ruzie" en "juni".

For vowel chart with audio, go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio

[Otharus]

THV will probably be like the German "du" and the English "you".

This is an example of 'Fryan' being sometimes less similar to Dutch (je, jij) or Frisian (do), than to other NW-European languages.

[Abramelin]

Abe, did you find a study claiming that bones of other small animals (no rabbits or hares) were found in the Netherlands from pre-Roman times?

I remembered I had once read a Dutch newspaper article referring to an archeological dig nearby where I live. It was some interview with archeologists, names and all. That I remembered, but no, I still haven't found it. I know it must exist, though.

[Abramelin]

Damn, here it is:

(sorry folks, it's in Dutch)

De onder meer door BAAC in 2005 in Voorburg teruggevonden botten bevestigen dat de beer niet of

nauwelijks in het gebied leefde, terwijl de oeros eveneens zeldzaam of afwezig geweest lijkt te zijn. Er zijn

in Voorburg botten gevonden van wild zwijn. Verder waren er kleinere dieren voor zoals de in Voorburg

aangetoonde bunzing, wezel en verschillende soorten muizen, ratten en kikkers. De beperkte aantallen

van het grote wild maken duidelijk dat de jacht geen belangrijke bijdrage kon leveren aan de voeding. Dat

past bij het geringe aandeel van jachtwild in de botvondsten elders. Dat ook in Voorburg jachtscènes met

onder meer jachthonden een geliefd onderwerp zijn op versierd vaatwerk, zegt niet dat veel werd

gejaagd. Het lijkt vooral een tijdverdrijf van de elite geweest te zijn, waaronder ook officieren.405 Illustratief

is wat dat betreft het in Voorburg opgegraven altaar voor de jachtgodin Diana dat is opgericht door een

priester van de keizercultus, een lid van de elite (afb. 1.2).406 Bij het elitaire karakter van de jacht past ook

dat het fraaiste en wellicht kostbaarste bronzen beeldje uit Voorburg een jachthond voorstelt (afb. 12.8).

Een welkome aanvulling uit het wild vormde de visvangst. In een kustplaats als Herculaneum heeft

analyse van botten zelfs uitgewezen dat men daar veel vis at en vrij weinig rood vlees.407 Er kwamen in

onder meer Voorburg resten tevoorschijn van zeevissen waaronder de schelvis, en zoetwatervissen zoals

de snoek, blei en karperachtigen. Verder waren er de trekkende vissen die zowel in de zee als de rivieren

leefden. De veel gevangen steur, maar ook de zalm, leefden in zee om met paaitijd de rivier op te

zwemmen. De paling deed dat net andersom. Langs de Cananefaatse kust vond men mosselen, kokkels

en de wulk. Oesters kwamen waarschijnlijk van iets verder weg. Dat geldt in ieder geval voor een aantal

opvallend grote exemplaren uit Voorburg en verder een aantal op herkomst onderzochte oesters uit

Valkenburg. Oesters die leefden in periodiek droogvallende getijdengebieden konden tot drie weken

levend worden gehouden en zodoende over grotere afstand vervoerd worden. Omdat de schelpen zelden

sporen van het openbreken vertonen, lijkt het erop dat de oesters anders dan tegenwoordig zelden rauw

werden gegeten en eerst werden gekookt waardoor de schelp zich opende.408 Ook zijn in Voorburg volop

resten gevonden van vogels zoals de wilde eend, winter- of zomertaling, grauwe gans, kolgans,

kraanvogel, raaf, huismus en goudplevier of snip.

Op het Cananefaatse platteland was blijkens het onderzoek in Rijswijk rundvlees

eveneens nummer één.1700 Vlees van wild als hert, ree, zwijn en haas speelden voor de grote massa

nauwelijks een rol.1701

Click on the second pdf:

https://www.google.nl/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&q=%5BPDF%5D+++Forum+Hadriani+De+vergeten+stad+van+Hadrianus+-+VU-DARE+Home

Or the first:

http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/handle/1871/16369

[Abramelin]

OK, I translated the most important part of my former post: the animals they found and were being eaten bythe Cananefates:

Dutch:

wild zwijn, bunzing, wezel, vershillende soorten vissen, ratten,kikkers

schelvis, snoek, blei, karper, steur, zalm, paling

mosselen, kokkels, wulk, oesters

wilde eend, winter-of zomertaling, grauwe gans, kolgans, kraanvogel, raaf, huismus, goudplevier, snip

"Op het Cananefaatse platteland was blijkens het onderzoek in Rijswijk rundvlees

eveneens nummer één.1700 Vlees van wild als hert, ree, zwijn en haas speelden voor de grote massa

nauwelijks een rol."

English:

wild boar, polecat, weasel, different types of fish, rats, frogs

haddock, pike, bream carp, sturgeon, salmon, eel

mussels, cockles, whelks, oysters

wild duck, winter or summer teal, greylag goose, white-fronted goose, crane, raven, sparrow, golden plover, snipe

"In the Cananefatian countryside, according to the research in Rijswijk, beef (cow meat)

was also number one. Meat of game like roe deer, boar and hare played hardly any role for the masses"

==

Most of their food consisted of what they could catch from sea and river plus beef.

Only the Roman elite hunted with dogs for sport, not the Cananefates. The C. didn't eat them, they didn't use them.

So whatever their tribal name may have meant, it had nothing to do with rabbits or dogs.

And as you all can see: they found bones of lots of animals, but none of rabbits. Like you can read on about every Dutch history site: rabbits were really introduced here in the middle ages, although the Romans did spread them around Europe, but they kept them in pens.

.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

OK, you convinced me that the CF were no rabbit or hare hunters.

VG pointed out that CAN* can be related to channel (Dutch: kanaal, gracht, sloot).

The low lands were swampy and in order to make the land dry, channels were dug out, which was also very helpful for transportation.

The Netherlands are well known for their waterworks.

Combined with the French verb "faire" (to do, make), I can imagine a word like CAN..FAT.. meaning something channel-diggers.

An peculiar activity of the area.

As for the KANINA-skins in the JON story (plm. 1600 BCE); this may refer to polecats, weasels, hares, or ...?

The article does not say there were no hares, just that not much was found of them.

Since even in Roman times there seems to have been confusion about dogs and rabbits, because of the similar terms (agreeably having to do with the ability to go in holes), the name may not have been used for rabbits alone in JON's time. The furs of all those rodents tend to be soft.

[Abramelin]

It were the Romans who started digging channels in the territory of the Cananefates.

=

There were hares, but they are not rabbits, and the CF didn't eat them much. And there aren't many hares living at the coast or the dunes here.

If hares are those CANINs, why would the CF be called after them when there were hardly any hares living on the dunes?

=

If you want to explain the name Cananefates with the name for some 'furry little animal', then you can now chose which one.

[Otharus]

There is something strange about the first line of page 1.

Why have I never noticed before?

The copyist made an effort to write neatly, the letters are more clear than on many later pages and also the two letters.

But the title "THET BOK THÉRA A.DEL.A.FOLSTAR" is not centered.

It is as if he started in the middle, not knowing what the title was going to be, or not realising that there would not be enough space on one line, when starting in the middle.

Still wondering what possible explanations might be.

[Otharus]

It were the Romans who started digging channels in the territory of the Cananefates.

How do you know?

Edited November 5, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

How do you know?

If the Cananefates dug their own channels. the Romans would not have needed to dig their own:

http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/corbulonis.html

We are talking about channels, not ditches, and about the land of the Cananefates, not the whole of the Netherlands.

[Abramelin]

There is something strange about the first line of page 1.

Why have I never noticed before?

The copyist made an effort to write neatly, the letters are more clear than on many later pages and also the two letters.

But the title "THET BOK THÉRA A.DEL.A.FOLSTAR" is not centered.

It is as if he started in the middle, not knowing what the title was going to be, or not realising that there would not be enough space on one line, when starting in the middle.

Still wondering what possible explanations might be.

You'd think that someone copying an existing text would know how much space he would need to write the lines down on new paper.

It does indeed look like "FOLSTAR" was initially omitted, and then added later.

[Abramelin]

Maybe we all are focusing a bit too much on the Batavii amd the Cananefates.

The reason the OLB doesn't mention them is maybe because these tribes were rather late arrivals (the MS stops at around the time these tribes started settling here):

Dutch:

Caesar noemde enkele 'Belgische' stammen, waaronder de Menapii als bewoners van het kustgebied van het huidige Vlaanderen en Zeeland en het deltagebied van de grote rivieren. Ten oosten van hen woonden de Eburones, door hem gerekend tot de Germani cisrhenani. Hoewel de eersten aanvankelijk een succesvolle guerrillastrijd voerden, moesten zij zich uiteindelijk overgeven. De Eburones werden verslagen en vrijwel volledig uitgeroeid. Met de oorlog die de Rijn tot noordgrens van het Romeinse Rijk maakte, kwam een einde aan de eigen ontwikkeling van deze volken. In een periode van relatieve rust vestigden de Batavi zich daarna in onder andere de Betuwe, terwijl de Cananefates naar het huidige Zuid-Holland trokken. Ten noorden daarvan woonden de Frisii. Het gebied van de Eburones werd vanuit het noorden opnieuw bevolkt door de Frisiavones.

English:

Caesar mentioned some 'Belgian' tribes, including the Menapii as inhabitants of the coastal region of present-day Flanders and Zeeland and the delta of the rivers. East of them lived the Eburones who were members of the Germani cisrhenani according to him. Although the Eburones first waged a successful guerrilla war, they finally had to finally surrender. The Eburones were defeated and almost completely exterminated. This war, that made the Rhine the northern border of the Roman Empire, brought an end to the personal development of these peoples. Thereafter, in a period of relative calm, the Batavi settled in areas such as the Betuwe, while the Cananefates marched to what's now the Dutch province of South Holland. To the north lived the Frisii. The area of the Eburones was repopulated from the north by the Frisiavones.

http://nl.wikipedia....d#Romeinse_tijd

http://en.wikipedia....the_Netherlands

http://en.wikipedia....Germanic_groups

.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Remember the long talks we all had about Friso/India-Punjab/Hamconius/OLB:

Eerder onderzoek van het RMO wees uit dat granaten in de fibulae uit Rhenen afkomstig zijn uit India en Pakistan.

Previous research by the RMO showed that the garnets in the fibulae from Rhenen came from India and Pakistan.

http://www.friesmuse...oek-naar-parijs

But this is about jewelry from the early middle ages...not from a millenium of more BC.

De edelsmid die in de zevende eeuw de beroemde mantelspeld van Wijnaldum maakte, haalde zijn edelstenen uit India. Dat ontdekte een onderzoeksteam deze week in Parijs.

The seventh century goldsmith who made the famous cloak pin of Wijnaldum​​, took his precious stones from India. That's what a research team discovered this week in Paris.

http://www.nd.nl/art...komen-uit-india

Scientific analysis of the gold disc-on-bow brooch (from a decade earlier, 1999)

A.J. NIJBOER & J.E. VAN REEKUM

adapted from:

The Excavations at Wijnaldum

Reports on Frisia in Roman and Medieval times

J.C. Besteman, J.M. Bos, D.A. Gerrets, H.A. Heidinga & J. de Koning;

volume 1;

A.A. Balkema, Rotterdam/Brookfield, 1999

http://www.lcm.rug.n...w_brooch_uk.htm

Not my 'discovery' btw, but by someone posting on this site:

http://www.nifterlac...3,8723#msg-8723

+++

EDIT:

I think this is another connection between Viking and Frisian history. Little Buddha figurines have been found in Viking hoards in Scandinavia, and most probably ended up there by trade and not by direct contact with India/Pakistan.

It is a known fact that the Frisian lands were not only raided by the Vikings, but also that many Frisians hooked up with the Vikings on their raids... and very likely these Vikings learned the 'art' from the ancient Frisii and/or the neighbours of the Frisii, the Chauci

The Vikings raided, settled in and traded with many lands that show up in the OLB....

It's just that according to the OLB the events it describes happened more than a millenium before the Vikngs.

Well, as many know, I think the adventures of the Vikings were a great source of inspiration for the creators of the OLB.

.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Abramelin