Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1926 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Puzz and I have both mentioned the Northwestblock a couple of times: http://www.citizendia.org/Nordwestblock But here is a site I linked to earlier, and also deals with this Northwestblock: The Celtic Origin Revised: the Atlantic View and the Nordwestblock Blues http://rokus01.wordp...-origin-revise/ Some quotes: This feature tends to correlate the Nordwestblock substratum geographically to the group of languages in the North European Plain rather than the Atlantic, thus to the archeological horizon that also includes the northern Dutch group, referred to by Louwe Kooijmans. The emerging Atlantic view and the potential exclusion of the Celtic origin from the North European Plain is screaming for a new assessment that relates Celtic and Germanic from the perspective of a western contact zone. The Germanic vocabulary might owe more from the west than previously conceived. Visualized by some examples, the Cornish/Welsh word lann or llan occurs frequently in place-names. Originally meaning “land”, it gradually came to mean “churchyard” and then “church” and “parish”. But how strong this original meaning ‘land’ can be confirmed to be embedded in the Celtic language? It could have been a Belgic loan, closely related or equal to Germanic “land”. In the Atlantic view the reverse might be true. The Dutch river mouth mentioned by Pliny the Elder was called Helinium in accusitivus, what would probably indicate a Latin river name Helinius, consistent with the Latin ending -us that generally applies to rivers. Normally, -ius instead of simply -us would imply a derivation of a region called Helinus. In Frisia numerous toponyms feature the hel element, what Clerinx translates into “low lands, marsh” and subsequently connects to Brythonic “marsh” or “estuary”. Other Celtic etymologies have been proposed, like “salt” – probably inspired by now obsolete ideas that involve a Hallstatt origin of Celtic. The Friso-Brythonic etymology does a much better job in addressing reminiscent Celtic features in Frisian, or the Ingvaeonic hemisphere as a whole. The implication would be that the -lin suffix might as well have been Germanic, distorted by Latin transcription issues. This intertwining of ancestral Celtic heritage and west Germanic loans and culture could be extended to the puzzling etymology of local goddess Nehalennia (also transcribed as Neihalennia), that now from a mixed local heritage easily translates to water-ghost (nikker ~IE *neig, to wash) of a region called Halennia – not unlike the latinized form Helinus deduced above. Since the description of the region delimited by Pliny between Helinium ac Flevum neatly corresponds to the historic region of Holland, I wonder if this is mere coincidence or that Holland indeed represent the ultimate indication of a lost Celtic heritage. This mixture could be symptomatic for the almost intangible potpourri that is might be implicated by the Nordwestblock or “Belgae” denomination. This may have been nothing but emerging West Germanic from a shared heritage. = If we take Cunliffe and Koch seriously, the Celtic influence along the North Sea was a lot older than conventional wisdom that stems from migrational La Tène or Hallstatt theories and the Roman interpretation: Late Bronze Age at least, in a Bronze Age Atlantic context. In the Low Countries such an unequivocal Atlantic period is very likely to be of an even older date. Some Celts might have lingered in the swamps for a longer period, but increasing continental contacts from the North German Plain and returning native styles seriously challenge the survival of an unequivocal Celtic ethnicity up to Roman times. The change from Celtic to Germanic, and especially the Ingvaeonic part, could have been much more gradual. A Celtic world strongly suggests the feasibility of an adjacent non-Celtic world, and the Low Countries is where both worlds met. It would be silly to suggest a unified Celtic world that existed since Bronze Age, but deny any consistency of a non-Celtic world in the North German Plains that was attested largely contemporaneous. A shared development at the contact zone for over at least 1000 years opens up the possibility of thorough Celtic influences on Germanic vocabularity and linguistic features in the north that ultimately were be no means confined to the Ingvaeonic hemisphere. +++++++++++ The next is from a link at the bottom of the webpage I linked to, and it's about the (linguistic) influence of the Etruscans on the Celts: An Etruscan Solution to a Celtic Problem Martin Counihan University of Southampton 23 January 2009 Abstract: It is argued that what used to be called "P-Celtic" arose because Etruscans could not pronounce properly the Indo-European languages which they encountered in and around Italy. Etruscan influence can neatly explain not only the phenomenon of P-Celtic but also the corresponding phonological transition in Oscan and Umbrian. This scenario tends to support a relatively short timescale for the dissemination and diversification of the Western Indo-European languages. = In conclusion: the significance of the Etruscans in the development of European civilisation has probably been underestimated in the past. They brought the Iron Age to Italy and to the Celts, who in turn took it westwards into France and the British Isles. The Roman conquest of Gaul and Britain can even be regarded as a mere repetition of what Celtic surrogates of the Etruscans had already achieved some centuries earlier. The purpose of this paper has been to argue that the Etruscans also left a linguistic mark across Western Europe and to explain the previously-mysterious division between "P-Celtic" and "Q-Celtic". The most striking phonological difference between Irish and Welsh is a consequence of how proto-Celtic was pronounced by the influential Etruscans. http://eprints.soton.../1/etruscan.pdf . Edited November 13, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1927 Share Posted November 13, 2012 One of the ideas based on the OLB is that Fryan or, say, Proto Frisian, was the source language from which other Germanic languages developed. Well, either the believers in the OLB have link-phobia, lol, or they missed it, but read this (from the same Rokus site I linked to earlier) : Old Germanic in La Tène, Another Perspective On Germanic Ethnogenesis and Runes http://rokus01.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/old-germanic-in-la-tene/ Nordwestblock theorists made a case for a third option, neither Celtic nor Germanic, or maybe rather a language somewhere in between PIE and Germanic. Some traces of a language that didn’t evolve some of the most outstanding Germanic soundshifts may have been preserved in West Germanic irregularities with words like “path” next to “foot”, “key” (Dutch: kaag) next to “hedge” (Dutch: haag). This could tentatively suggest a process of gradual incorporation of pre-Germanic elements into the Germanic world, having a much longer history than generally considered. The convergence implied could have been completed already long before the Migration Period and stabilized even before the Roman conquest of Gaul, or may have remained an ongoing process well into the Migration Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1928 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Language Change and Language Structure: Older Germanic Languages in a Comparative Perspective. Toril Swan, Endre Mørck, Olaf Jansen Westvik (Editors) / 1994. http://books.google.nl/books?id=nfU5YglHXvgC&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=northwestblock+vennemann&source=bl&ots=UxFLQwGArP&sig=os3WNzc3431QYuyoq6GEGUGdHmc&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=_oOiUMHNLaSs0QWj-IC4Bg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false Theo Vennemann (born May 27, 1937) is a German linguist known best for his work on historical linguistics, especially for his disputed theories of a Vasconic substratum and an Atlantic superstratum of European languages. He also suggests that the High German consonant shift was already completed in the early 1st century BC, and not in the 9th century AD as most experts believe. Born in Oberhausen-Sterkrade, he is currently a professor emeritus in Germanic and Theoretical Linguistics at the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich. == * Punic, the Semitic language spoken in classical Carthage, is a superstratum of the Germanic languages. According to Vennemann, Carthaginians colonized the North Sea region between the 6th and 3rd centuries BC; this is evidenced by numerous Semitic loan words in the Germanic languages, as well as structural features such as strong verbs, and similarities between Norse religion and Semitic religion. This theory replaces his older theory of a superstratum of an unknown Semitic language called "Atlantic". * Semitic is a substratum of the Celtic languages, as shown by certain structural features of Celtic, especially their lack of external possessors. * The Runic alphabet is derived directly from the Phoenician alphabet used by the Carthaginians, without intervention by the Greek alphabet. * The Germanic sound shift is dated to the 6th to 3rd centuries BC, as evidenced by the fact that some presumed Punic loan words participated in it, while others did not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Vennemann Superstratum A superstratum or superstrate (plural: superstrata or superstrates) is the counterpart to a substratum. When one language succeeds another, the former is termed the superstratum and the latter the substratum. In the case of French, for example, the Frankish language is the superstrate and Gaulic the substrate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstratum#Superstratum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1929 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) I wonder... could't it not have been Minoans/Mycenaeans instead of Phoenicians? At least we now have some proof they visited Northern Europe and far earlier than the Phoenicians did Here some old posts of mine, about Minoan/Mycenaean artefacts found on NW Germany / the German Bight (and my excuses for the 'preaching' in those posts, lol): http://www.unexplain...35#entry3670892 http://www.unexplain...45#entry4408970 http://www.unexplain...45#entry4408433 I also posted about a Minoan/Mycenaean inscription found in Scandinavia, dating from around 1700 BC. Maybe it's hidden somewhere in the old posts I linked to. +++ EDIT: Ectocretan was a language or group of languages dominant in ancient Crete prior to Mycenaean Greek. During the Minoan civilization, it was recorded in administrative and religious hieroglyphic and Linear A inscriptions. Numerous attempts have been made to ascertain its linguistic affiliation, however it remains an unclassified language and its relationship with Greek is unknown. = Very little is known about Eteocretan language. Its analysis and study are severely limited by the fact that the Bronze Age Linear A syllabary, its only source of attestation, remains undecipherable. http://en.wikipedia....cretan_language The written language of the Minoans is called Linear A by archeologists, linguists and historians, and has not yet been deciphered. The Mycenaean language, Linear B, was not deciphered until the 1950s, and linguists hope one day to crack the code, as more writings are unearthed in excavations. One example is the Phaistos Disc, where the writing runs in a spiral from the outside to the center. LInguists now believe that Linear A and Linear B are very similar. Until recently it was believed that Linear A was not related to Linear B, an ancestor of the Greek language, and was not an Indo European language, a family that includes ancient Greek and Latin. However, this view has changed. Linguists have discovered a close relationship between Linear A and Sanskrit, the ancient language of India, with connections to Hittite and Armenian, making it clear that Linear A is an Indo European language. Dozens of researchers are working on the puzzle with the approximately 600 words in existence. http://www.historywi...nslinear-a.html Beginning our research with inscriptions in Linear A carved on offering tables found in the many peak sanctuaries on the mountains of Crete, we recognise a clear relationship between Linear A and Sanskrit, the ancient language of India. There is also a connection to Hittite and Armenian. This relationship allows us to place the Minoan language among the so-called Indo-European languages, a vast family that includes modern Greek and the Latin of Ancient Rome. The Minoan and Greek languages are considered to be different branches of Indo-European. The Minoans probably moved from Anatolia to the island of Crete about 10,000 years ago. There were similar population movements to Greece. The relative isolation of the population which settled in Crete resulted in the development of its own language, Minoan, which is considered different to Mycenaean. In the Minoan language (Linear A), there are no purely Greek words, as is the case in Mycenaean Linear B; it contains only words also found in Greek, Sanskrit and Latin, i.e. sharing the same Indo-European origin. http://www.cretegaze...an-language.php . Edited November 13, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 13, 2012 #1930 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Because of the crease in the paper, part of the letter -F- is hidden, but you can still see something extra: And it is not a dot/period separating the letters because that one is clearly visible on the right. How do you interpret that dot? Do you believe it is part of the letter? How would you reconstruct the letter? What was the relevance of that calligraphed letter you posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1931 Share Posted November 13, 2012 How do you interpret that dot? Do you believe it is part of the letter? How would you reconstruct the letter? What was the relevance of that calligraphed letter you posted? I think the dot is what remains of a little line connected to the main figure (letter). The calligraphed letter is just what I think it looks like (somewhat). And that extra line (that's what I think it is) made me think of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1932 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Linear A inscription discovered in 1987 on a rock panel in Kongsberg, Norway, approx. 1700 BC. The Linear A signs beneath were photocopied from “Inscribed Tablets and Pithos of Linear A System from Zakro”, by N. Platonos and W. Brice (1975). The cup form of the pi sign is characteristic also of the pi sign pecked into the rock, but this copy is from the Norwegian semitist, Ph.D. Kjell Aartun’s list in Die Minoische Schrift. Band I. The rock panel, with pictures of carvings, is described under chapter 5 Kongsberg. http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=9420#entry4171106 Rock panel with carvings (Helleristning) I Petroglyphs Near to this cup mark, there is a figure which may represent a boat. With the high, upright stern and prow, equally high as what could be the mast, it looks like a ship rendered on a Mycenean vase from late Minoan time ( Ernst Kjellberg og Gösta Säflund, Græsk og Romersk Kunst, 1962, p. 31). To the left is the Linear A inscription, with the signs tu yu pi ti. The ship figure is pecked into the rock with the same technique as used in the inscription and the cup mark. ...and so on... http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=9420#entry4171181 http://jarnaes.wordpress.com/kongsberg/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 13, 2012 #1933 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum.[you:] The Angelara were men heretofor called the Butafiskar* because they only fished with hooks or kol ** and never nets'. [sandbach:] The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets. You make it more complicated than it is. " Angelara, zo heette (noemde) men tevoren de buitenvissers, omdat ze alleen met angel en kol visten en nimmer met netten." "Angelara, so the 'seafishermen' (fishermen in the open water) were named in earlier times, because they only caught fish with angel (hook) or kol (lines), and never with nets." (http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...rn=buitenvisser) Edited November 13, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 13, 2012 #1934 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think the dot is what remains of a little line connected to the main figure (letter). Can you make a drawing of what you think it should be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1935 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Can you make a drawing of what you think it should be? I know it looks like sh1t, but either the one copying the MS had some problems with his quill, or this is how the letter should look. The crease in the paper was formed AFTER the MS was written, or else the ink would still be visible in the cracked parts. . Edited November 13, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1936 Share Posted November 13, 2012 You make it more complicated than it is. " Angelara, zo heette (noemde) men tevoren de buitenvissers, omdat ze alleen met angel en kol visten en nimmer met netten." "Angelara, so the 'seafishermen' (fishermen in the open water) were named in earlier times, because they only caught fish with angel (hook) or kol (lines), and never with nets." (http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...rn=buitenvisser) I make it more complicated?? I am the first one in 150 years who came up with this, lol, so excuse me if I doubt a bit. And the name appears to be a German surname. You have any idea what that surname might mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 13, 2012 #1937 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I am the first one in 150 years who came up with this, lol, so excuse me if I doubt a bit. Of course you are excused. And the name appears to be a German surname. You have any idea what that surname might mean? LOL you mean Ange-Lara? Angelara = hengelaren/ anglers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1938 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) LOL you mean Ange-Lara? Angelara = hengelaren/ anglers That is what I posted : Anglers. But that is not the name I asked about. It's "Bütefisch" And when I Google, I only see the face of or documents about some Nazi, Heinrich Bütefisch, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_B%C3%BCtefisch But his surname must mean something, right? . Edited November 13, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Gorp Posted November 13, 2012 #1939 Share Posted November 13, 2012 That is what I posted : Anglers. But that is not the name I asked about. It's "Bütefisch" And when I Google, I only see the face of or documents about some Nazi, Heinrich Bütefisch, http://en.wikipedia....rich_Bütefisch But his surname must mean something, right? . Let me guess: Buiten-Vis? :-) But about Angelaren all about, and Engelsen (Anglais) we have a clear view on where the name comes from: den (h)Ang-el: die hangt erbij (aan-ge-het), maakt een hoek (angle) en is de scherpe 'kant' (kent) van de zaak. Engelen hangen ook in de lucht. Romains/Greeks pronounced it quite well: Angelus/Angelos: Hangel-Is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 13, 2012 Author #1940 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 13, 2012 #1941 Share Posted November 13, 2012 either the one copying the MS had some problems with his quill, or this is how the letter should look The whole point about the RUN-script is that one can write fast and keep the pen on the paper as much as possible, so the ink can flow gently without making a mess. You will know if you have ever written with a dip-pen. So I think your first guess is the right one, as this makes most sense IMO: (in the last one I have exaggerated to make the direction visible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 13, 2012 #1942 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Engelen hangen ook in de lucht.Romains/Greeks pronounced it quite well: Angelus/Angelos: Hangel-Is. As not unusually, OLB made me a suggestion to an etymology, more plausible than all existing ones. [001/19] THAT IK NÉN MODER NÉSA NAVT NILDE THRVCHDAM IK APOL TO MIN ÉNGÁ JÉRDE => znw. letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft [009/05] AN STILNISE NE WÉNADON HJA NÉNEN ÉNGE TÁR => bnw. enige [033/02] IS THÉR ENG KWÁD DÉN [...] => bnw. enig [041/18] IS HWA FIF ÀND TVINTICH ÀND HETH ER NÉN ÉNGÁ SÁ ACH EK MAN HIM UT SIN HUS TO WÉRANE [...] NIMTH ER THÀN NACH NÉN ÉNGÁ [...] => znw. letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft [042/03] SAHWERSA ÀMMAN ENG GOD THETH (HETH) [...] => bnw. enig [051/22] THA PRESTERA SEND THA ENGOSTA HÉRA => bnw. enigste [096/20] ADELA IS THET ENGE BERN VSAR GRÉVET.MAN => bnw. enige [102/14] THERVMBE NE MÉI JRTHA SELVA NER ENG SKEPSLE NI SEDSA IK BEN => bnw. enig [199/03] SKÉPON THÉR HJA RÁVED HÀVE IS HJARA ÉNGE SKÀT => bnw. enige ~ ~ ~ http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...b=ONW&id=ID2315 Tho sprag sancta Maria zo themo eingele so geheren. nu woldik thaz the apostoli hir waren. That se min plégen. ande min ende gesâgen. Toen sprak de heilige Maria tot de zo voortreffelijke engel: "Nu zou ik willen dat de apostelen hier waren, opdat ze mij verzorgen en mijn levenseinde aanschouwen.". Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 455 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200. Tho her theses líues solde gewandelen, tho wart sin sîele unt fangen uan godes êngelen. Toen hij (t.w. Lazarus) moest sterven, werd zijn ziel ontvangen door Gods engelen. Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 685 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200. Edited November 13, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Gorp Posted November 13, 2012 #1943 Share Posted November 13, 2012 As not unusually, OLB made me a suggestion to an etymology, more plausible than all existing ones. [001/19] THAT IK NÉN MODER NÉSA NAVT NILDE THRVCHDAM IK APOL TO MIN ÉNGÁ JÉRDE => letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft [009/05] AN STILNISE NE WÉNADON HJA NÉNEN ÉNGE TÁR => enige [033/02] IS THÉR ENG KWÁD DÉN [...] => enig [041/18] IS HWA FIF ÀND TVINTICH ÀND HETH ER NÉN ÉNGÁ SÁ ACH EK MAN HIM UT SIN HUS TO WÉRANE [...] NIMTH ER THÀN NACH NÉN ÉNGÁ [...] => letterlijk: enige; betekenis: wederhelft [042/03] SAHWERSA ÀMMAN ENG GOD THETH (HETH) [...] => enig [051/22] THA PRESTERA SEND THA ENGOSTA HÉRA => enigste [096/20] ADELA IS THET ENGE BERN VSAR GRÉVET.MAN => enige [102/14] THERVMBE NE MÉI JRTHA SELVA NER ENG SKEPSLE NI SEDSA IK BEN => enig [199/03] SKÉPON THÉR HJA RÁVED HÀVE IS HJARA ÉNGE SKÀT => enige ~ ~ ~ http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...b=ONW&id=ID2315 Tho sprag sancta Maria zo themo eingele so geheren. nu woldik thaz the apostoli hir waren. That se min plégen. ande min ende gesâgen. Toen sprak de heilige Maria tot de zo voortreffelijke engel: "Nu zou ik willen dat de apostelen hier waren, opdat ze mij verzorgen en mijn levenseinde aanschouwen.". Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 455 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200. Tho her theses líues solde gewandelen, tho wart sin sîele unt fangen uan godes êngelen. Toen hij (t.w. Lazarus) moest sterven, werd zijn ziel ontvangen door Gods engelen. Mfr.Reimb. A, r. 685 Werden, Essen?, Noord-Oost Nederland, 1151-1200. Otharus, This is inspiring: do you mean you sea also a meaning in Eng-elen as the 'only ones' (a bit like the choosen ones?, not the whole lot but the particular, enige-n, the ap-pointed ones) When I look the the geography i can see Engeland is boarding to the 'Nauw of Calais', 'eng' also meaning 'nauw' -> like in being/having be-nauwd when you feel narrowed/enclosed/fixed? Engelsen than related to the Eng(nauw)-land? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 13, 2012 #1944 Share Posted November 13, 2012 do you mean you sea also a meaning in Eng-elen as the 'only ones' (a bit like the choosen ones?, not the whole lot but the particular, enige-n, the ap-pointed ones) Yes, something like that. 'eng' also meaning 'nauw' -> like in being/having be-nauwd when you feel narrowed/enclosed/fixed? I noticed that (in OLB) ENG / ÉNG in the meaning of "enig" (only) is consequently spelled with N+G (separate letters), while ENG in the meaning of "nauw" (narrow) is spelled with the special NG (single) letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 14, 2012 Author #1945 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Otharus, This is inspiring: do you mean you sea also a meaning in Eng-elen as the 'only ones' (a bit like the choosen ones?, not the whole lot but the particular, enige-n, the ap-pointed ones) When I look the the geography i can see Engeland is boarding to the 'Nauw of Calais', 'eng' also meaning 'nauw' -> like in being/having be-nauwd when you feel narrowed/enclosed/fixed? Engelsen than related to the Eng(nauw)-land? That is like what I have posted when making up a similar 'etymology': that 'eng' means 'narrow' (England = Narrow Land, because of its elongated shape). It's also what the old Frisians called the Strait of Gibraltar (see the post about Sylt in my blog). The reader of the writing was Freso, and he the wanderers chose to be their king, or visible Uald. But their troubles were by no means at an end, and they had many adventures before passing through the Pillars of Hercules, which the Frisians call "dit Nau." Then they entered the Atlantic, which they call "the Spanish sea." http://oeralinda.blo...he isle of Sylt . Edited November 14, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 14, 2012 Author #1946 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) But you guys have nothing to say about what I posted concerning the Phoenicians and the Minoans/Mycenaeans. Is all this just about Scrabble, or are you also interested in history, science and archeological finds? Let me give it on a plate... The Northwest Block theory, though disputed, offers some sort of support to the OLB. Whatever was happening in that area, linguistically speaking, is still an enigma. There are those who think that the language spoken was between PIE and Germanic, or that some still unknown language was spoken there, that the people living there moved to Italy, that the language was influenced (or even based on) Punic or maybe Minoan/Mycenaean, finds pointing to a Minoan/Mycenaean presence in that area, and so on. . . Edited November 14, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 14, 2012 Author #1947 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) The whole point about the RUN-script is that one can write fast and keep the pen on the paper as much as possible, so the ink can flow gently without making a mess. You will know if you have ever written with a dip-pen. So I think your first guess is the right one, as this makes most sense IMO: (in the last one I have exaggerated to make the direction visible) And that's also why I posted this example of 'run script' : And maybe you will remember my post about the Roman Tironian script: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=227240&st=525&p=4332107entry4332107 . . Edited November 14, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 14, 2012 Author #1948 Share Posted November 14, 2012 As not unusually, OLB made me a suggestion to an etymology, more plausible than all existing ones. e-n-g, afries., Pron.: Vw.: s. ê-n-ich* ê-n-ich* 50 und häufiger?, â-n-ich, ê-n-ig, a-n-g, e-n-g, afries., Pron.: nhd. ein (Pron.), irgendein; ne. a (Pron.), any; ÜG.: lat. quis AB (90, 28); Hw.: s. ê-n; vgl. an. einigr, ae. Únig, as. ênag, ahd. einÆg; Q.: R, W, E, H, B, AB (90, 28), AA 46; E.: s. ê-n, *-ich; W.: saterl. ejnig; L.: Hh 20a, Rh 707b, AA 46; R.: ê-n-ig-ra handa, ê-n-ig-ra hond-a, afries.: nhd. mancherlei; ne. something; http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-E.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 14, 2012 Author #1949 Share Posted November 14, 2012 To me this etymology of the name "Nehalennia" sounds a lot more sane and plausible than what the OLB had to offer, and at least it is based on history: <snip> The emerging Atlantic view and the potential exclusion of the Celtic origin from the North European Plain is screaming for a new assessment that relates Celtic and Germanic from the perspective of a western contact zone. The Germanic vocabulary might owe more from the west than previously conceived. Visualized by some examples, the Cornish/Welsh word lann or llan occurs frequently in place-names. Originally meaning “land”, it gradually came to mean “churchyard” and then “church” and “parish”. But how strong this original meaning ‘land’ can be confirmed to be embedded in the Celtic language? It could have been a Belgic loan, closely related or equal to Germanic “land”. In the Atlantic view the reverse might be true. The Dutch river mouth mentioned by Pliny the Elder was called Helinium in accusitivus, what would probably indicate a Latin river name Helinius, consistent with the Latin ending -us that generally applies to rivers. Normally, -ius instead of simply -us would imply a derivation of a region called Helinus. In Frisia numerous toponyms feature the hel element, what Clerinx translates into “low lands, marsh” and subsequently connects to Brythonic “marsh” or “estuary”. Other Celtic etymologies have been proposed, like “salt” – probably inspired by now obsolete ideas that involve a Hallstatt origin of Celtic. The Friso-Brythonic etymology does a much better job in addressing reminiscent Celtic features in Frisian, or the Ingvaeonic hemisphere as a whole. The implication would be that the -lin suffix might as well have been Germanic, distorted by Latin transcription issues. This intertwining of ancestral Celtic heritage and west Germanic loans and culture could be extended to the puzzling etymology of local goddess Nehalennia (also transcribed as Neihalennia), that now from a mixed local heritage easily translates to water-ghost (nikker ~IE *neig, to wash) of a region called Halennia – not unlike the latinized form Helinus deduced above. Since the description of the region delimited by Pliny between Helinium ac Flevum neatly corresponds to the historic region of Holland, I wonder if this is mere coincidence or that Holland indeed represent the ultimate indication of a lost Celtic heritage. This mixture could be symptomatic for the almost intangible potpourri that is might be implicated by the Nordwestblock or “Belgae” denomination. This may have been nothing but emerging West Germanic from a shared heritage. <snip> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 14, 2012 #1950 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) In Frisian mythology, 'Stavoren' is mentioned as the oldest and most important city of 'Friesland'. It would have been named after the god or idol Stavo. In Belgium there is a city Stavelot (German name: Stablo; Walon: Ståvleu). In the North-French Pas-de-Calais area there is a city Étaples (In Dutch a.k.a. Stapel). Portus Staliocanus from Ptolomeus' Geographica II-8? (Suggested by J. Vandemaele.) In Greek Stavros (Σταύρος) means pole or cross. It is a common name for people and places. (I can imagine the link between a tree or carved pole/ trunk and and the name for an idol.) Stable and staple are related words. ~ Once one accepts that Friesland/ Frisia from the myths does not equal the current Dutch province Friesland, that remains of old-Stavoren will not be found in nowaday Stavoren (same for Medemblik etc.), and that the Gyganten (giants), the dragon and mermaid may have been metaphors (or added to entertain the audience), the mythology offers many possible new views and starts to make much more sense. It is understandable why they were rejected as merely fiction between the 18th and 20th century. A revision will answer many questions. ~ New transcription of (part of) Okko Scarlensis here: fryskednis/okke-fon-skarl Edited November 14, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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