TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3426 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Science doesn't claim to find "the truth". The scientific method proposes and tests hypotheses. There's full awareness that future evidence may cause refinement/revision/rejection of any hypothesis (even theories). Basically, the scientific method offers us a manner in which to look critically at things, to subject our ideas to falsification, to search for viable evidence, to examine and question before coming to any conclusions. This is summed up nicely by Carl Sagan in what he called a method for "baloney detection" http://www.planetfor...fl/baloney.html What if I were to say that Carl Sagan knew a lot more about ETs and UFOs than he "shared" with the public and most of his colleagues? He wasn't the only one. LOL Edited October 13, 2012 by TheMacGuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted October 13, 2012 #3427 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What if I were to say that Carl Sagan knew a lot more about ETs and UFOs than he "shared" with the public and most of his colleagues? He wasn't the only one. LOL What if you were? It would carry just about as much weight as any other unsubstantiated claim, which is to say; none at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3428 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What if you were? It would carry just about as much weight as any other unsubstantiated claim, which is to say; none at all. How sure are you about that? Are you 100% sure that I am wrong about what I'm saying? Do you think I'm just 100% wrong about everything I've said on here? How sure are you, Boon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted October 13, 2012 #3429 Share Posted October 13, 2012 How sure are you about that? Are you 100% sure that I am wrong about what I'm saying? Do you think I'm just 100% wrong about everything I've said on here? How sure are you, Boon? Did I say even one thing about you being wrong McG? Please read it again. I didn't say anything about you being wrong. What I implied is that by making such a statement, you would be making an unsubstantiated claim. That is all. If you made the statement and included verifiable evidence in support of the statement, it would be a different story. Do you see the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synchronomy Posted October 13, 2012 #3430 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What if I were to say that Carl Sagan knew a lot more about ETs and UFOs than he "shared" with the public and most of his colleagues? He wasn't the only one. LOL Yes Sagan new a lot more. I had a friend years ago who spent some time working with him and he claimed that Sagan's personal belief and knowledge was different from what he portrayed publicly because he was funded heavily by acedemia...that's the case for many scientists. That is Universities and private/government research groups etc. Since his views were widely accepted by the public, he had to be damn careful what he said or he could lose his funding by losing his credibility. To be on the safe side he took the firm stance of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". Some have claimed over the years that this made him a paid disinformationist. Not at all true. He was a scientist trying to earn a living and had to protect his income. By saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", he was indirectly inferring ...."go get the proof, it's out there somewhere". His great novel "Contact" details a scenerio in which we make contact via interdimensional means. Although it was published as fiction, it wasn't far off from Sagan's beliefs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3431 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Did I say even one thing about you being wrong McG? Please read it again. I didn't say anything about you being wrong. What I implied is that by making such a statement, you would be making an unsubstantiated claim. That is all. If you made the statement and included verifiable evidence in support of the statement, it would be a different story. Do you see the difference? Long ago, in a 1965 newspaper article, Carl Sagan was referred to as "an adviser on ET life for the Armed Services", which comes a lot closer to the truth than most people realize. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CCUQFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fkenny.anomalyresponse.org%2Fsagan.html&ei=-oh5UKnbIYbc9AS58IHQAg&usg=AFQjCNExxAvwQyzes6tVQCel8x04iqfEXQ&sig2=aoGIexP2ME-YpuBYYtfi3g Now he did introduce a great deal of information to the public about this subject, but by no means everything he knew. Do you see what I'm saying, Boon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3432 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Yes Sagan new a lot more. I had a friend years ago who spent some time working with him and he claimed that Sagan's personal belief and knowledge was different from what he portrayed publicly because he was funded heavily by acedemia...that's the case for many scientists. That is Universities and private/government research groups etc. Since his views were widely accepted by the public, he had to be damn careful what he said or he could lose his funding by losing his credibility. To be on the safe side he took the firm stance of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". I would say that Sagan was involved in the classified UFO and ET investigation going back to the time when he was a young scientists, just starting out, as that 1965 newspaper article indicates. He did share some information with the public and his colleagues, but not everything. I mean, was he going to say that SETI itself started out as a military program long before the public was aware of it, and that as usual in these things that classified program was much larger and older than the public version? Hell, they knew that UFOs were coming in from space as soon as radar was invented that could detect things that high--way back in the 1940s. Edited October 13, 2012 by TheMacGuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3433 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Yes Sagan new a lot more. Some have claimed over the years that this made him a paid disinformationist. Not at all true. He was a scientist trying to earn a living and had to protect his income. By saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", he was indirectly inferring ...."go get the proof, it's out there somewhere". His great novel "Contact" details a scenerio in which we make contact via interdimensional means. Although it was published as fiction, it wasn't far off from Sagan's beliefs. Maybe he meant to say "get the proof declassified because I've already seen some of it", as an adviser on ET life to the military. One of many such "advisers" I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synchronomy Posted October 13, 2012 #3434 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Maybe he meant to say "get the proof declassified because I've already seen some of it", as an adviser on ET life to the military. One of many such "advisers" I'm sure. I agree. I could get more specific about what I heard about Sagan, but I'm not going to because it's the old "a guy told me that new him once" stories. I believe what I heard to be true. It's one of those technology/knowledge claims that are "indistinguishable from magic" as they say. I'm not going to post details simply because I don't have proof and the debunkers here will pounce on me like "buzzards on a gutwagon"...lol. I've probably said enough anyway...I better go and put on my flamesuit! Edited October 13, 2012 by synchronomy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3435 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I agree. I could get more specific about what I heard about Sagan, but I'm not going to because it's the old "a guy told me that new him once" stories. I believe what I heard to be true. It's one of those technology/knowledge claims that are "indistinguishable from magic" as they say. I'm not going to post details simply because I don't have proof and the debunkers here will pounce on me like "buzzards on a gutwagon"...lol. I've probably said enough anyway...I better go and put on my flamesuit! They always pounce on me, saying I never have any evidence, but I have proved them wrong a couple thousand times. I can do so any time I choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted October 13, 2012 #3436 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Long ago, in a 1965 newspaper article, Carl Sagan was referred to as "an adviser on ET life for the Armed Services", which comes a lot closer to the truth than most people realize. http://www.google.co...2ME-YpuBYYtfi3g Now he did introduce a great deal of information to the public about this subject, but by no means everything he knew. Do you see what I'm saying, Boon? I do see what you are saying, just as I saw what you were saying when you brought up this speculative article in the past. What did Sagan purportedly say exactly? "But Dr. Carl Sagan, adviser on Extra-Terrestrial life for the Armed Services, said we must assume that they have bases on the other said of the Moon," said Pierce. What we have here is someone telling us that someone else told them that Sagan supposedly said this. I'm sure you've played the game "telephone" before, or at the very least heard of it. As such it is easy to understand how and why this cannot be considered a reliable quotation of what Sagan originally said. Even if it were reliable, what could we extract from such a comment? That he suggested the military should assume ET has bases on the far side of the moon? Okay, so what? From a defense standpoint, it would only be prudent to prepare for the possibility of such a case, especially in those early days when the UFO phenomena was such a high defense concern at the start of the Cold War. To make an honest assessment of this narrative, we should compare it with things that we know for a fact were said by Carl Sagan. We know for a fact that he was a firm believer in the likelihood of extra terrestrial life. We know for a fact that such study was of great interest to him. We also know for a fact that he was highly skeptical of the claims made by UFOlogy. It seems to me that it would follow from this that the quote of a quote of a quote in that article could easily have been taken out of context and/or slightly mis-worded in the retelling. Do you see what I'm saying? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted October 13, 2012 #3437 Share Posted October 13, 2012 They always pounce on me, saying I never have any evidence, but I have proved them wrong a couple thousand times. I can do so any time I choose. A couple thousand times eh? Wow, what an impressive resume you have. I wonder what would happen if someone were to check your references for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synchronomy Posted October 13, 2012 #3438 Share Posted October 13, 2012 They always pounce on me, saying I never have any evidence, but I have proved them wrong a couple thousand times. I can do so any time I choose. You're in a fortunate position in that you can provide proof. Most of the information I have was provided verbally and "off the record". Much akin to "cafeteria talk" Not just relating to Sagan, but to ET contact and current on-going research. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3439 Share Posted October 13, 2012 A couple thousand times eh? Wow, what an impressive resume you have. I wonder what would happen if someone were to check your references for this. Oh, at least that many, but I will give you credit for being a good spin meister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3440 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) I do see what you are saying, just as I saw what you were saying when you brought up this speculative article in the past. What did Sagan purportedly say exactly? "But Dr. Carl Sagan, adviser on Extra-Terrestrial life for the Armed Services, said we must assume that they have bases on the other said of the Moon," said Pierce. Do you see what I'm saying? I was very curious about that part where he was an adviser on ETs for the military, which is not found on his resume. You already know about his 1962 lecture to astronomers where he mentions alien civilizations sending out expeditions to earth "every few thousand years", or maybe more frequently when they found life, and that they might have bases on the moon and other places on the solar system. None of this is made up. http://www.google.co...QDF9QjaQJoLlK2Q Edited October 13, 2012 by TheMacGuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3441 Share Posted October 13, 2012 You're in a fortunate position in that you can provide proof. Most of the information I have was provided verbally and "off the record". Much akin to "cafeteria talk" Not just relating to Sagan, but to ET contact and current on-going research. I heard plenty of that too over the years, but I rarely mention it, at least not directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badeskov Posted October 13, 2012 #3442 Share Posted October 13, 2012 A couple thousand times eh? Wow, what an impressive resume you have. Indeed, rather impressive if that was the case. Alas not. I wonder what would happen if someone were to check your references for this. An exercise in futility? Cheers, Badeskov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3443 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Indeed, rather impressive if that was the case. Alas not. An exercise in futility? Another county heard from. That's nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3444 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Of course it was Frank Edwards who said that SETI originally started out as a military-funded program in the 1950s, and that the classified version was far larger and better-financed than the public version we know about. Maybe that was also part of the general job description of the ET "advisers" to the military. Some people have even said that the original (classified) version of SETI was called Project Plato, but I have no way of knowing if that's true.' http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEMQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agoracosmopolitan.com%2Fnews%2Fufo_extraterrestrials%2F2011%2F07%2F24%2F262.html&ei=0aJ5UKaEI5Ok8ASu5ICIBg&usg=AFQjCNGnXqP_thKXS0BO_h5kcwJWyh-DuA&sig2=KlqnvBhC1Zff1Cn4MleKLw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3445 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Here are some other interesting tidbits about Carl Sagan, which are the 'tip of the iceberg' as they say. "Sagan was able to conduct a secret study for the U.S. Air Force–related Armour Research Foundation on the possibility and effects of detonating nuclear weapons in the Moon. After his death, a biographer accused Sagan of violating security rules by confiding the existence of the secret study to a limited number of people in order to boost his chances of winning a fellowship in California." He was a technical adviser for 2001: A Space Odyssey, thought that Mars was inhabited, and so on. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.encyclopedia.com%2Ftopic%2FCarl_Edward_Sagan.aspx&ei=0aJ5UKaEI5Ok8ASu5ICIBg&usg=AFQjCNHXCAoenCBifIxVhlo0TR-f1TNTIw&sig2=MeXfkA01zXoInhYrQWrThA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted October 13, 2012 #3446 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I was very curious about that part where he was an adviser on ETs for the military, which is not found on his resume. You already know about his 1962 lecture to astronomers where he mentions alien civilizations sending out expeditions to earth "every few thousand years", or maybe more frequently when they found life, and that they might have bases on the moon and other places on the solar system. None of this is made up. http://www.google.co...QDF9QjaQJoLlK2Q And your point is? This is all common knowledge. We know that he speculated about such possibilities, many people have. He also realizes that the conclusions hinge on the accuracy of the formula he used and the data which was input. He's speaking in terms of probability, not in terms of actuality. For that matter, I don't disagree in the same possibility that the earth has been visited, could be visited, or is being visited. I find the idea completely plausible as I'm sure Sagan did. There just isn't any verifiable evidence with which to draw any firm conclusions about the actuality of this plausible scenario; no matter how much you may think otherwise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3447 Share Posted October 13, 2012 And your point is? This is all common knowledge. We know that he speculated about such possibilities, many people have. He also realizes that the conclusions hinge on the accuracy of the formula he used and the data which was input. He's speaking in terms of probability, not in terms of actuality. Since it's all "common knowledge" I'm surprised you didn't post any of it since I do regard you as an expert on all things common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted October 13, 2012 #3448 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Since it's all "common knowledge" I'm surprised you didn't post any of it since I do regard you as an expert on all things common. Here you go with your imaginary p***ing contest again. Why would you expect me to post random facts about Carl Sagan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMacGuffin Posted October 13, 2012 #3449 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Here you go with your imaginary p***ing contest again. Why would you expect me to post random facts about Carl Sagan? You're the one who's been going today, like a firecracker on speed. Is it Miller Time wherever you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booNyzarC Posted October 13, 2012 #3450 Share Posted October 13, 2012 You're the one who's been going today, like a firecracker on speed. I've been posting more over the last few days, not just today. Is it Miller Time wherever you are? If you're asking whether I'm drinking right now I'd like to point out that it is none of your business. That being said, coffee and water are the only beverages I've had today. Would you like to know what I had for lunch too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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