Israel - UFO or Missile?

[bmk1245]

This is a TERRIFIC find, and it is critically important exactly as you have recognized.

Bolshoye bolshoye spasibo, no BS.

My pleasure.

More vids (sorry if were posted already, too lazy scroll back):

,

,

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[lost_shaman]

But what is more important is this... is the missile begins to drop over the horizon, HOW BIG IS IT OT THE NAKED EYE?

Do you know how many times I have asked that in here? Nobody wants to seem to answer it.

How about you, Sakari, HOW BIG IS IT as it fades over the horizon?? a MICRODOT - barely visible?

And think about this too, the maps show where the missile is over the horizon. for a variety of reasons that

does not mean you can see it. If you have a clear sky and perhaps some binoculars, maybe

Not true at all Earl! I've answered this for you twice in the last few days, the last just last night! The missile itself will appear as a point source, typically between 1 arc minute and about 20 arc seconds. See I've answered your question again for a third time.

[JimOberg]

Well, I'm just trying to get him to admit that I had the proof and was telling the truth. After that, he can talk about missiles to his heart's content. I could care less about that. I think I have made my point, though.

Fair enough. Being in the documentary means somebody on the project was in contact with Coleman. But doesn't Coleman's 1988 letter [that I linked to] suggest that other claims that Emenegger made about what Coleman is supposed to have said to him privately [not on film], may be in dispute, according to Coleman himself?

As I recall I wrote, "What proof, aside from his own claim, is there that he did, or is reporting the events accurately?" And Coleman's letter, at least in my mind, raised the question again, that Coleman HIMSELF is saying that statements attributed to him were never actually made.

Coleman [1988]: "...: evidence we possessed from the thousands of investigations did not in any way support the thesis. We had a warehouse full of stuff, but non of it, not one iota, would support the ETIH"..

Edited July 18, 2012 by JimOberg

[DONTEATUS]

It is funny or sad if you can look at it this way that so many people look without the actual evidence ,proof ect.

But then again I saw something and I know it was not of this earth. But I dont try to tell others to Believe.

I leave that to Tom Curise ! What a bunch of "@#$%%$".

See how easy it is to have ones own belief system.

[TheMacGuffin]

Fair enough. Being in the documentary means somebody on the project was in contact with Coleman.

That's as close to an admission of error as I'm ever likely to get from this guy, and I guess it will have to do. I'm not going to discuss it any further so feel free to talk about missiles all you want.

[TheMacGuffin]

It is funny or sad if you can look at it this way that so many people look without the actual evidence ,proof ect.

But then again I saw something and I know it was not of this earth. But I dont try to tell others to Believe.

I leave that to Tom Curise ! What a bunch of "@#$%%$".

See how easy it is to have ones own belief system.

Unless you're me, and you have evidence coming out the ying-yang!

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Hey BoonY, I did your vetting for you - or at least some of it. Here's his response:

"All of those images were taken with a regular (non-telescopic) 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera. The same lens that came with most 35mm film cameras back in the day.

Regards,

BW"

It appears you made a point. I am not here to dictate, I am here to find the truth.

I know nothing of cameras and I don't know what to make of a 50 mm lens, or how much it can magnify but clearly it can magnify, and that - plus the size stretching by leaving the lens open (time lapsed photography) has to make it *somewhat* moot. and he was at altitude. NOT THE SAME AS NAKED EYE at sea level, which Israel is. The missile in his pic was CLEARLY not on the horizon, which it should have been near. It wasn't. that bothers me. what about that distance? Is he wrong?

Perhaps you will agree that at 1500 miles away and several hundred miles high leaves the object at the horizon.

Maybe his altitude had a lot to do with it. It would be nice to know that to put it into the formula and see but then again, we'd have to know the height of the missile to get angle of inclination so.....!?

Anyway, I have no idea what he would have seen with the naked eye but should have asked. maybe a microdot.

In the interim, I'll keep it in mind, I do not know if the guy is on the up-and-up nor do I know for sure about the distance, all I can say is, it CERTAINLY contradicts the data that was shown in the maps of missile viewing radii by Sakori

I also know this, I KNOW I cannot see a missile over Dallas Texas. Ok? I KNOW this. I think you do, too.

so you may have won a battle here but you have not won the war. far from it.

I'm out for a while, I know I have a lot of mail to catch up on.

ciao

[booNyzarC]

I respect your honesty in reporting the response that you received. Cya when you get back.

[TheMacGuffin]

Speaking of Col. William Coleman, he had one episode in which the son of an important US official in France was taken on board a UFO, and the White House sent the Air Force guys over there to investigate. All of his shows were supposedly based on true incidents, but for the life of me I can't think of any case like this one--not in the public record anyway. I wonder if Coleman was trying to tell us something?

[booNyzarC]

Hey BoonY, I did your vetting for you - or at least some of it. Here's his response:

"All of those images were taken with a regular (non-telescopic) 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera. The same lens that came with most 35mm film cameras back in the day.

Regards,

BW"

It appears you made a point. I am not here to dictate, I am here to find the truth.

Again, I appreciate your honestly in reporting this. I didn't have much time to respond last night, and really don't have a lot of time this morning either, but I wanted to address at least a couple of things.

I know nothing of cameras and I don't know what to make of a 50 mm lens, or how much it can magnify but clearly it can magnify, and that - plus the size stretching by leaving the lens open (time lapsed photography) has to make it *somewhat* moot. and he was at altitude. NOT THE SAME AS NAKED EYE at sea level, which Israel is. The missile in his pic was CLEARLY not on the horizon, which it should have been near. It wasn't. that bothers me. what about that distance? Is he wrong?

As for focal length, you may find this and this to be worth reading. In particular, look at the photo comparisons here to give you an idea of a 50mm lens. There are many UM members who could probably go into excruciating detail about this if you are really curious and want to learn about it.

As for the elevation in Israel compared to Ventura County, you might want to look at these two topographic maps.

Ventura County

Israel

Depending on exactly where the witnesses were in Israel, they may not have literally been at sea level.

Perhaps you will agree that at 1500 miles away and several hundred miles high leaves the object at the horizon.

Maybe his altitude had a lot to do with it. It would be nice to know that to put it into the formula and see but then again, we'd have to know the height of the missile to get angle of inclination so.....!?

Anyway, I have no idea what he would have seen with the naked eye but should have asked. maybe a microdot.

After looking at the links above regarding focal length, hopefully you'll realize that he would have seen significantly more than a microdot with the naked eye.

In the interim, I'll keep it in mind, I do not know if the guy is on the up-and-up nor do I know for sure about the distance, all I can say is, it CERTAINLY contradicts the data that was shown in the maps of missile viewing radii by Sakori

I'm not sure why you think the examples pointed out by Sakari contradict the data. There were 4 examples provided of different launches and various stages. Perhaps you focused solely on the first two?

The fourth image depicts a stage 4 radius of about 1700 miles, and the third image depicts a stage 3 radius of not much less. None of the graphics depict the visibility of the Topol rocket that was tested in Russia.

I also know this, I KNOW I cannot see a missile over Dallas Texas. Ok? I KNOW this. I think you do, too.

This right here might represent the cause of your hangup on this issue. You are personally convinced that you can't see a missile at that distance, regardless of whether it is actually true. You are so convinced that you describe it as a knowing.

I would suggest that you open yourself to the possibility that you may be mistaken about this. If the conditions were right, and the missile was at a significant enough altitude, you most definitely could see a missile plume at that distance; provided you were looking up.

so you may have won a battle here but you have not won the war. far from it.

I'm out for a while, I know I have a lot of mail to catch up on.

ciao

Cheers Earl.

[JimOberg]

Well said, <--> Crazy Noob <--->

As Will rfogers long ago advised, only half in jest:

It ain't what you don't know

what makes you look like a fool.

It's what you DO know

what ain't so.

[mcrom901]

hi jim... i'm guessing the pa(?) guy is up with the logs for sts-75?

Edited July 19, 2012 by mcrom901

[mcrom901]

so you may have won a battle here but you have not won the war. far from it.

I'm out for a while, I know I have a lot of mail to catch up on.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Hey BoonY, I did your vetting for you - or at least some of it. Here's his response:

"All of those images were taken with a regular (non-telescopic) 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera. The same lens that came with most 35mm film cameras back in the day.

Regards,

BW"

It appears you made a point. I am not here to dictate, I am here to find the truth.

SNIP

so you may have won a battle here but you have not won the war. far from it.

I'm out for a while, I know I have a lot of mail to catch up on.

ciao

BoonY,, so sorry, I have had time to think it over. there are several things that have to be mitigated here.

1. How far did the photog ZOOM in? you don't need a telescopic lens to do that. MY BAD

If the user zoomed in to just 2:1 mag, that means the image we see is exactly what you would see

at 1:1 mag from about 375 miles. The photog climbed a mountain to film an expected missile launch.

He knew he was going to use an open shudder (time lapsed) and surely he knew the missile was 1500 miles away.

something tells me he zoomed in to MAX. But, we don't know for sure. I never asked because I never thought of it.

2. Open shudder issue. for how long? If he had the shudder open for say, two minutes, then you can think about

shrinking the length of said object in the pic by a factor of 600. But who knows ho long? I did not ask.

3. What is photog's altitude? I don't know, neither do you but it counts.

BoonY, these are issues that YOU should have vetted. you did not. Yet it is me that you claim had no credibility

shame, shame, bud, I don't talk like that about you. like I said before, I am looking for truth and I gave this one a try.

FAIL. it don't pass the test.

in the meantime, you have presented to me a piece of evidence to "DEFEAT ME" like Sakari and his maps,

and all you ever did, in the end (so far) is firm up my point. at BEST you will ever see of a missile from 1500

miles away, at sea level, with the naked eye is a MICRODOT.

Or... try again.

I am looking for truth, you are looking to uphold an idiom

the more I show you you are wrong, the harder you try to show I am wrong. try being objective.I did and I am.

NOBODY has established that a missile was shot over Russia, let alone, that is what caused a panic in Israel.

Ciao

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

TO: the Russian Missile Conspiracy Theorists

If we argued about the car that just passed us being a toyota or a kia, neither of us would care who was right in the end.

No big deal.

this issue in here..? you fight like your life depends on you being right. But.... WHY?? Why is it so damm important?

the evidences are clear. you Russian missile conspiracy theorists SPAM me with worthless theoretical JUNK that

you have NO way to prove even applies to THIS particular missile shot and thinking all the while that "you got me".

I mention about REAL things such as eyewitness testimony, like the Syrian videoer that says the apparition was over Israel

and all I get is crickets or some worthless spin. meanwhile, if he was telling the truth, you realize that facing Israel from Syria, he could never see any parsect of sky over Russia/Kazakhstan. But why let the facts get in the way with the TRUTH!

Whoa, what investigative powers! What intellectual integrity!

another point. Did any of you "IMPARTIAL" debaters in here ever think to check for weather conditions in any of the countries north of say - Turkey? Noooooooooooooooooooooo. Why do that, it cannot help the cause. you may find out the truth. Right?

Besides Russia/Kazakhstan, you have - all on the southern border of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan that never had witnesses that claimed to have seen the apparition at ALL, let alone see it over Russia. The exception is Russia, which has vids at RuTube.Ru and you know long before those vids were made known to me, I felt Russia was lying anyway. So how come none of these very close nations had populaces that went into a panic, meanwhile, Israelis 1500 miles away panicked. WHY? doesn't that bug you?

It should. Investigate it, don't just SPIN it off in your imagination.

Now, come on... be OBJECTIVE. be HONEST. Look at BOTH sides. If it looks fishy, don't ignore it, look for TRUTH

[TheMacGuffin]

TO: the Russian Missile Conspiracy Theorists

Now, come on... be OBJECTIVE. be HONEST. Look at BOTH sides. If it looks fishy, don't ignore it, look for TRUTH

I actually worked in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan for a couple of years, and I can only say that I never saw anything that looked like that, although I can't claim that I was looking up at the night sky all the time. I can't say that I ever heard of anything like it either, for what it's worth. I never even heard any UFO reports there, although those were highly authoritarian countries where anything could be kept secret.

[booNyzarC]

I actually worked in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan for a couple of years, and I can only say that I never saw anything that looked like that, although I can't claim that I was looking up at the night sky all the time. I can't say that I ever heard of anything like it either, for what it's worth. I never even heard any UFO reports there, although those were highly authoritarian countries where anything could be kept secret.

And yet you agree that this was a missile if I'm not mistaken.

[TheMacGuffin]

And yet you agree that this was a missile if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, the pictures certainly look like a missile to me.

[booNyzarC]

I mention about REAL things such as eyewitness testimony, like the Syrian videoer that says the apparition was over Israel

and all I get is crickets or some worthless spin. meanwhile, if he was telling the truth, you realize that facing Israel from Syria, he could never see any parsect of sky over Russia/Kazakhstan. But why let the facts get in the way with the TRUTH!

Whoa, what investigative powers! What intellectual integrity!

Can you direct me to this particular video and where the person who shot it claims to have been filming from Syria and in the direction of Israel?

Please also point me to your original post in this thread where you say that you mentioned it.

Thanks Earl, much appreciated.

[psyche101]

TO: the Russian Missile Conspiracy Theorists

If we argued about the car that just passed us being a toyota or a kia, neither of us would care who was right in the end.

No big deal.

this issue in here..? you fight like your life depends on you being right. But.... WHY?? Why is it so damm important?

the evidences are clear. you Russian missile conspiracy theorists SPAM me with worthless theoretical JUNK that

you have NO way to prove even applies to THIS particular missile shot and thinking all the while that "you got me".

I mention about REAL things such as eyewitness testimony, like the Syrian videoer that says the apparition was over Israel

and all I get is crickets or some worthless spin. meanwhile, if he was telling the truth, you realize that facing Israel from Syria, he could never see any parsect of sky over Russia/Kazakhstan. But why let the facts get in the way with the TRUTH!

Whoa, what investigative powers! What intellectual integrity!

another point. Did any of you "IMPARTIAL" debaters in here ever think to check for weather conditions in any of the countries north of say - Turkey? Noooooooooooooooooooooo. Why do that, it cannot help the cause. you may find out the truth. Right?

Besides Russia/Kazakhstan, you have - all on the southern border of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan that never had witnesses that claimed to have seen the apparition at ALL, let alone see it over Russia. The exception is Russia, which has vids at RuTube.Ru and you know long before those vids were made known to me, I felt Russia was lying anyway. So how come none of these very close nations had populaces that went into a panic, meanwhile, Israelis 1500 miles away panicked. WHY? doesn't that bug you?

It should. Investigate it, don't just SPIN it off in your imagination.

Now, come on... be OBJECTIVE. be HONEST. Look at BOTH sides. If it looks fishy, don't ignore it, look for TRUTH

Hi EOT

Being honest, my confusion still stems from that you do not seem to have an argument any longer, to be fair I have asked you several times what your remaining argument is.

1 - Ceiling Height of an ICBM. - You were wrong. 456kms is not an ICBM ceiling. You have been shown that 1000 kms is a minimal ceiling for that journey. What is your remaining argument?

2 - You said Yigal Pat-El claimed the apparition was over Israel. He did not, he keeps revising his guesstimate, and the origin is creeping back toward Russia by his own estimates. I even illustrated this with a map for you. What is your remaining argument?

3 - You say the light should be a tiny dot. Well that too has been proven incorrect, Lost Shaman did the math on the resolution of the human eye and what he said is exactly what the witnesses say. A distant point of light, I have given at least three testimonies that say this, and two photos. What is your remaining argument?

4 - You said that a space shuttle launch could not be seen over 100kms. That was refuted with testimony accompanied with photographic proof. What is your remaining argument?

Earl, do not try to answer every post. We have no idea what you have left that makes you stick to your claim. Well, let me speak for myself, I have no idea what your remaining argument is. Every reason that you had for thinking the apparition was directly over Israel has been soundly refuted in the above points. Can you please place out your remaining argument as you see it, perhaps in bullet point as above so that we can see what your claim is. As far as I can tell, you just have a problem with Jim Oberg, and think the Russians are lying to support him. I just cannot fathom how that is the case Earl, can you expand please?

Cheers.

[JimOberg]

I mention about REAL things such as eyewitness testimony, like the Syrian videoer that says the apparition was over Israel

and all I get is crickets or some worthless spin. meanwhile, if he was telling the truth, you realize that facing Israel from Syria, he could never see any parsect of sky over Russia/Kazakhstan. But why let the facts get in the way with the TRUTH!

This sure could be an important datum, but I can't find the link you attribute it to. Please repeat the link.

[JimOberg]

Let's see, the missile launch was at 1839 GMT [and announced within half an hour, a fact that Earl has yet to acknowledge], and that was late evening in Israel, Syria, Caucasus... lots of people awake and outside.

In countries farther east, such as Kazakhstan, it was after midnight, GMT + 6 hours.

So I, for one, would expect a lot fewer people awake and outside -- and as much poorer countries, a lot fewer of them with pocketcams.

But Earl asks, why don't we have the same torrent of videos from THOSE countries?

Doesn't seem all that mysterious to me why not.

[booNyzarC]

This sure could be an important datum, but I can't find the link you attribute it to. Please repeat the link.

I think I found what he's talking about. Unfortunately, it doesn't say what he claims it says.

I believe he is referring to his post #128. Sadly though, he has grossly misunderstood the article which he quotes from.

Earl's version...

Here are just two links. On source is a blog on NY Times but there are many. EMPHASIS ADDED

----------------------------------------

http://thelede.blogs...missile-launch/

One video, said to have been recorded in the Syrian town of Deir ez-Zor, showed the phenomenon clearly:

“Suddenly, coming from the north, we saw a giant cone of light open up in the sky in what look to be the sky above Mt. Hermon and Har Dov,” said one witness in Israel who snapped a photo and described what he saw to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. “It was crazy, and after 15 seconds it began spinning light a florescent spiral, which dispersed into a giant plume of smoke blanketing the entire mountain.”

... conveniently leaves out the video itself that is referred to in the article.

And he assumes that the quote following the video in the article is a reference from the person who filmed the video, when in reality it is an unrelated quote from an observer in Israel.

--

I'm guessing about this by the way, and I admit that I could be mistaken. Perhaps he was talking about something else? But so far it appears as though this is what he was referring to. I do look forward to hearing it directly from him though, and I will genuinely apologize for my error if I'm mistaken.

[JimOberg]

Besides Russia/Kazakhstan, you have - all on the southern border of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan that never had witnesses that claimed to have seen the apparition at ALL, let alone see it over Russia. The exception is Russia, which has vids at RuTube.Ru and you know long before those vids were made known to me, I felt Russia was lying anyway. So how come none of these very close nations had populaces that went into a panic, meanwhile, Israelis 1500 miles away panicked. WHY? doesn't that bug you? It should. Investigate it, don't just SPIN it off in your imagination.

Ask, and it shall be given unto you:

[pop into into a translator yourself -- don't take my word

for what it says, I might be a Russian-paid liar]

http://www.12.uz/#ru...how/peace/9809/

В Каракалпакстане засняли фото и видео неизвестного летающего объекта

12.uz - Редакция информационного портала 12.uz получила письмо от своего читателя из Каракалпакстана Арстанбека Абдуллаева, который наблюдал неизвестный летающий объект.

По его словам, 7 июня в 22.40 по местному времени появляется объект, которое светилось ярко некоторое время.

«Но потом или взорвалось или… не знаю как в фильме «Полет навигатора» переместилось в другое пространство. Оно исчезло, оставив после себя яркий дым, который постепенно увеличился и потом испарился. Форма дыма была такое же как и в начале его появления», - отмечает Арстанбек Абдуллаев.

Он также сообщил, что он проживает в городе Беруни, однако в ночь на 7 июня он был в Нукусе.

«В Нукусе в 23 микрорайоне (ул. Калинина) напротив кафе «Туран» я был в интернет-кафе и я своими глазами видел все что снято, но не только я но и сотни людей рядом стоящие, а также же мои родственники и занкомые в Беруни тоже наблюдали происходившее. На видео снято начало появления объекта, на фото уже после его исчезновения медленно увеличивающийся дым. Это снимали многие», - уточнил очевидец события.

Here's the link to the photo

http://www.12.uz/img...0000009809.jpg/

and to the video:

http://www.12.uz/#ru/news/show/peace/9809/

Edited July 20, 2012 by JimOberg

[bmk1245]

[...]

Besides Russia/Kazakhstan, you have - all on the southern border of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan that never had witnesses that claimed to have seen the apparition at ALL, let alone see it over Russia. The exception is Russia, which has vids at RuTube.Ru and you know long before those vids were made known to me, I felt Russia was lying anyway. So how come none of these very close nations had populaces that went into a panic, meanwhile, Israelis 1500 miles away panicked. WHY? doesn't that bug you?

[...]

Sigh... ALL videos/stills taken from the south of the "flightpath" show direction left->right, while ALL videos/stills taken from the north of the "flightpath" (

,

,

,

, etc) show opposite direction right->left. If you have any source (videos/stills taken from Israel, Turkey, Caucasus, etc) that would indicate right->left, bring it here.

Anyway, you are trying to inflate balloon which was bursted long time ago...