The RB-47 UFO Incident

[psyche101]

I didn't find it confusing. The two men are using different instruments. What I found interesting is what McDonald say's here...

Gidday Mate!

What I find confusing os that McDonald presents both in his report, yet only one answer could possibly be correct if any. He is saying "they picked up a signal on the planes radar, but they did not."

i.e.

The upscope- downscope sweep of his #2 monitor lobe implied that this source, presuming it to be the same one now also being seen on ground radar at Carswell GCI, had flown a circle around the RB-47 at 30-35,000 ft

then

The unknown gave a GCI return that suggested a cross-section comparable to an ordinary aircraft, Chase told me, which is consistent with Hanley's non-detection of the object. The Condon Report gives the impression the navigator did detect it, but this is not correct.

That is very interesting, good pickup, I thought every man and his dog simply refused plasma in this instance?

Cheers.

[TheMcGuffin]

Gidday Mate!

What I find confusing os that McDonald presents both in his report, yet only one answer could possibly be correct if any. He is saying "they picked up a signal on the planes radar, but they did not."

.

The purpose of these RB-47H planes was to detect enemy radar, which was usually stationary and on the ground. They were surprised by the UFO moving around in the sky and giving off radar signals. Their plane did not:

"Emit a signal and then pick up reflected echoes off of an object. Rather, it detected electromagnetic signals that were actually emitted by an object itself. The purpose of this was to detect and locate enemy radar installations. On this aircraft, the #2 monitor consisted of a direction finder with antenna on the lower rear of the aircraft, and the #1 monitor consisted of a direction finder with antennas on each wingtip of the aircraft. The #3 monitor was not involved in the events of July 17, because its range did not include the frequencies involved.

"

The two crew members at Stations 1 and 2 picked up the UFO signals. Frank McClure was on the No. 2 Monitor and first picked up the UFO, but did not mention it to the pilot Lewis Chase until he later saw the UFO visually. John J. Provenzano was at the No. 1 station. Both reported that it followed them from Louisiana to Texas, keeping pace with them, and then they picked up two UFOs, which appeared to be red lights.

That doesn't seem to get mentioned much either, that at one point a second UFO showed up, detected by the plane and ground radar. When they chased one of these, the UFO simply stopped at they overshot it. When they again closed within five miles, it blinked out and disappeared from ground radar and the plane's detection equipment.

It started following them again when they returned to base in Oklahoma, and was again seen visually and by the electronic equipment.

Very weird, especially because it also responded to IFF signals. It seemed to me mimicking various kinds of signals in fact.

http://ufoevidence.o...ses/case665.htm

I am uncertain about whether the plane's own radar also picked up the UFOs since its range was only 4 miles.

Its ability to stop in midair like that is really mysterious, and rules out a conventional kind of aircraft in 1957, and probably now for all I know.

Edited June 18, 2012 by TheMcGuffin

[lost_shaman]

Its ability to stop in midair like that is really mysterious, and rules out a conventional kind of aircraft in 1957, and probably now for all I know.

Yeah, but that's exactly what a plasma might do, McDonald lamented the fact that others were not considering this.

[TheMcGuffin]

Yeah, but that's exactly what a plasma might do, McDonald lamented the fact that others were not considering this.

But do plasmas give off signals like these UFOs in July 1957, including responses to IFF? That's another strange part of the whole thing, if we are going to buy the idea of some kind of very long-lasting plasma or similar phenomenon--and these would have had to last for an unusually long duration. They seemed to be mimicking the signals, though, or at least attempting to do so.

I can see why this case puzzled the Air Force and why it was kicked up to the Top Secret level, making it one of the very few Blue Book cases that we know of ever to be so highly classified. They couldn't identify these as their own aircraft, either.

[Hazzard]

But do plasmas give off signals like these UFOs in July 1957, including responses to IFF? That's another strange part of the whole thing, if we are going to buy the idea of some kind of very long-lasting plasma or similar phenomenon--and these would have had to last for an unusually long duration. They seemed to be mimicking the signals, though, or at least attempting to do so.

I can see why this case puzzled the Air Force and why it was kicked up to the Top Secret level, making it one of the very few Blue Book cases that we know of ever to be so highly classified. They couldn't identify these as their own aircraft, either.

I managed to find some of the posts we did about plasma earlier... Here is one of Badeskovs,...

http://www.unexplain...2

So, it would seem that plasma can indeed...

* Move at extreme velocities.

* Undergo extreme accelerations.

* Be very luminious and have metallic looking "surface".

* Move erratically, something some could interprete as being intelligently controlled motion.

* Can be attracted to metal (like a big airplane) depending on the magnetic characteristics of the plasma.

Terrestrial plasmas certainly dont count for all of the sightings, we dont even know if it counts for any, although I would be very surprised if it didnt.

However, the fact that such phenomena exists, exhibit some of the same behaviors as UFOs and that we really only learned about them during the last 20 years clearly illustrates that....

1) We constantly learn about our atmosphere and the Earth we live one.

2) The last Earthly phenomenon hasnt been discovered yet.

3) We have not, in any UFO case, proven that it is ET by the elimination of all other possibilities.

In general they consist of light balls of many forms and colors, characterized by pulsations, often erratic movements, occasional long duration, and intense emission of energy. Their dimensions range from decimeters up to 30 m.

During that campaign, it was also demonstrated that these lights often produce a strong radar signature with a peculiar behavior. Once a bright light was radar-tracked moving at 8500 m/s (the radar was working at 3 cm).

Several attempts were made to get a reaction. The lights ''responded'' almost always by changing their flashing sequence from a regular flashing mode to a regular double-flashing mode and returning to a regular flashing mode after the laser beam was moved away (Strand, 1985, 2000).

Here we have something that is intensely luminous, provides a strong radar signature, look metallic, can move fast and highly erratically (seeming intelligently) and reacting to outside stimuli.

I dont know about the rest of you, but this sure reminds me of some of the UFOs we keep hearing about.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Hazzard

[TheMcGuffin]

I dont know about the rest of you, but this sure reminds me of some of the UFOs we keep hearing about.

Do they also carry transponders and reply to IFF signals, because these UFOs in July 1957 did.

Edited June 18, 2012 by TheMcGuffin

[TheMcGuffin]

Here's some more homework. What is the longest duration plasma on record? I mean one observed under real scientific conditions?

Which plasma has lasted the longest that we know of, and how long did it last?

[psyche101]

Here's some more homework. What is the longest duration plasma on record? I mean one observed under real scientific conditions?

Which plasma has lasted the longest that we know of, and how long did it last?

What about min min or marfa type phenomena? It has had quite long durations and followed people for long period, and is generally caused by a temperature inversion, which could perhaps cause a signal amplification and return?

Similarly, very-high frequency (above ca. 90 MHz) radio waves (being part of the electromagnetic spectrum, like light) can be refracted by such inversions. This is why it is possible to sometimes hear FM radio (or watch VHF-LO band TV) broadcasts from otherwise impossible distances as far as a few hundred miles on foggy nights. The signal, still powerful enough to be received even at hundreds or rarely, thousands, of miles, would normally be refracted up and away from the ground-based antenna, is instead refracted down towards the earth by the temperature-inversion boundary layer. This phenomenon is called tropospheric ducting. It is also referred to as skip by small radio operators and ham radio operators. Along coast lines during Autumn and Spring many FM radio stations are plagued by severe signal degradation causing them to sound like "scrambled eggs".

Inversions can magnify the so called "green flash": a phenomenon occurring at sunrise/sunset, usually visible for a few seconds, in which the sun's green light is isolated due to dispersion - the shorter wavelength is refracted most, so it is the first/last light from the upper rim of the solar disc to be seen.

LINK

"Eighty-four kilometres (70 miles) west of Middleton on the Winton Road are the ruins of the Min Min Hotel, built in the late 1880's and burnt down in the 1920's," says the article.

"Its name has been given to a mysterious light that is seen throughout the western border areas. The first recorded sighting of the Min Min Lights took place at the ruins of the hotel and some locals believe that the lights originated in the nearby graveyard and have a supernatural connection."

Australian writer and poet Christopher Leonard in Outback Australia, the Permanent Frontier, wrote: "It was first reported by a stockman who had passed by the place where the Min Min Hotel had stood before it was destroyed by fire [in 1918].

"From a little graveyard behind the hotel the stockman saw a light rising, which followed him most of the way to Boulia. It might have been dismissed as the ravings of a drunken stockman if thousands of sightings of the Min Min Light had not been reported since."

LINK

That duration was just short of 200 kms.

Edited June 18, 2012 by psyche101

[Hazzard]

There is also ball lightning. It usually is seen shortly before or after, or during, a thunderstorm. Its duration varies from a few seconds to a few minutes.

The lifetime of ball lightning tends to increase with size and decrease with brightness. Balls that appear distinctly orange and blue seem to last longer than average.

Ball lightning usually moves parallel to the earth, but it takes vertical jumps. Sometimes it descends from the clouds, other times it suddenly materializes either indoors or outdoors or enters a room through a closed or open window, through thin nonmetallic walls or through the chimney.

The term refers to reports of luminous, usually spherical objects which vary from pea-sized to several meters in diameter. It is usually associated with thunderstorms, but lasts considerably longer than the split-second flash of a lightning bolt. Many of the early reports say that the ball eventually explodes, sometimes with fatal consequences, leaving behind the odor of sulfur

Here is more,... http://physicsworld....ls-of-lightning http://en.wikipedia..../Ball_lightning

Edited June 18, 2012 by Hazzard

[TheMcGuffin]

One theory has always been that plasmas are related to the propulsion systems of UFOs. This is not simply science fiction, either, since serious science is paying attention to the possibility of plasma-propelled spacecraft, especially since plasmas are 99% of all known matter in the universe.

http://www.ae.utexas...ve/2011/ll-raja

Other studies discuss using plasmas for cloaking purposes.

https://docs.google....7BmaAnqaw8XlDmQ

I have been looking for articles on the durations of plasmas commonly found in nature, such as ball lightening, and from what I could find, most last only a few seconds but perhaps as long as three minutes in unusual cases.

Of course, there are many natural plasmas in the atmosphere that last only a fraction of a second, but from what I know, they are very rarely of long duration.

http://amasci.com/tesla/bllinspc.txt

Edited June 18, 2012 by TheMcGuffin

[TheMcGuffin]

This leads me to speculate that long-duration plasmas may not be a purely "natural" phenomenon, but perhaps artificially generated in some way, which we also know how to do.

[lost_shaman]

This leads me to speculate that long-duration plasmas may not be a purely "natural" phenomenon, but perhaps artificially generated in some way, which we also know how to do.

In Hessdalen the Scientists seem confident that at least 95% of all atmospheric anomalies (UFO's) can be explained by the long duration plasmas.

[quillius]

Last years interview with Erling Strand by the L, incase anyone missed it.....very interesting.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/column.php?id=207536

[quillius]

and this is from April this year

http://www.uapreporting.org/?p=1589

from the link:

9/ In a recent interview, you have stated that “…you have had several daytime observations, where you have seen flying discs, etc…”Even if not related to the HP, could you please provide more details on such sightings? I have had only three daytime observations, so the word “several” is wrong. I have however seen several unexplainable “things”, – such which goes into another category than HP or ufo. Two of those three observations was a flying disc. The third was a “black hole”. I did not get the impression that I was looking onto a black object, it was more like a hole into something completely black. This “black hole” changed size all the time.

interesting that he doesnt place flying discs into the 'ufo' catergory

[psyche101]

and this is from April this year

http://www.uapreporting.org/?p=1589

from the link:

9/ In a recent interview, you have stated that “…you have had several daytime observations, where you have seen flying discs, etc…”Even if not related to the HP, could you please provide more details on such sightings? I have had only three daytime observations, so the word “several” is wrong. I have however seen several unexplainable “things”, – such which goes into another category than HP or ufo. Two of those three observations was a flying disc. The third was a “black hole”. I did not get the impression that I was looking onto a black object, it was more like a hole into something completely black. This “black hole” changed size all the time.

interesting that he doesnt place flying discs into the 'ufo' catergory

How on earth can he do that when it is aerial and unidentified?

[quillius]

How on earth can he do that when it is aerial and unidentified?

Beats me, however does make it quite an intriguing comment IMO

[zoser]

In Hessdalen the Scientists seem confident that at least 95% of all atmospheric anomalies (UFO's) can be explained by the long duration plasmas.

Apart from the ones where 2 tonnes of earth have been surgically dug out and moved a couple of metres; because that happened in Hessdalen

Other strange phenomenon have been observed by locals in Hessdalen. One such phenomenon seems to be a cross between cattle mutilations and crop circles, except performed on the top layers of peat bogs. This very strange phenomenon was first discovered during the initial study. Hunters were on the trail of Deer in a inaccessible part of the valley when they came across a large section that had been sliced and removed from the bog. The top layer of the bog, approximately half a meter deep 5 meters x 1.5 meters across had been precision cut and shifted 10 meters away, perfectly intact. Seemingly with laser precision had the bog been cut. The slab that had been removed weighed an estimated 2 tons but there was no evidence of human trails or machinery of any kind. The ability to extract and move a single section of bog weighing 2 tons without using machine might suggest advanced technology. It was later discovered that this phenomenon had happened before further north in Norway. Exactly the same sized block of earth had been extracted and deposited meters away with great precision and zero trace of human activity. Not even foot prints were found.

Source:

http://www.highpants-paranoid-android.com/norways-hessdalen-lights-project-hessdalen-the-scientific-ufo-study/

[Hazzard]

Apart from the ones where 2 tonnes of earth have been surgically dug out and moved a couple of metres; because that happened in Hessdalen

Other strange phenomenon have been observed by locals in Hessdalen. One such phenomenon seems to be a cross between cattle mutilations and crop circles, except performed on the top layers of peat bogs. This very strange phenomenon was first discovered during the initial study. Hunters were on the trail of Deer in a inaccessible part of the valley when they came across a large section that had been sliced and removed from the bog. The top layer of the bog, approximately half a meter deep 5 meters x 1.5 meters across had been precision cut and shifted 10 meters away, perfectly intact. Seemingly with laser precision had the bog been cut. The slab that had been removed weighed an estimated 2 tons but there was no evidence of human trails or machinery of any kind. The ability to extract and move a single section of bog weighing 2 tons without using machine might suggest advanced technology. It was later discovered that this phenomenon had happened before further north in Norway. Exactly the same sized block of earth had been extracted and deposited meters away with great precision and zero trace of human activity. Not even foot prints were found.

Im looking for independent verification of these claims made by zoser about Hessdalen,... but cant find any.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Hazzard

[TheMcGuffin]

That link doesnt work for me.

[zoser]

Im looking for independent verification of these claims made by zoser about Hessdalen,... but cant find any.

Seek and ye shall find.

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2011/01/dancing-light-ufos-norways-hessdalen-phenomena/

[quillius]

Im looking for independent verification of these claims made by zoser about Hessdalen,... but cant find any.

This is quite interesting:

http://home.cropcircleresearch.com/articles/e017-hessdalen.html

from the link:

As everyone knows, it is a circular explanation: no-one really knows what the earth lights are. The lights are seen (and filmed) mostly in night-time but the local people have also told about grey disc or cigar shaped objects in the air which don't reflect light. There haven't been any observations of aliens and no abductions have occurred though there's been a couple of strange animal deaths that resemble "animal mutilations".

possible interpretation issues.

I have also read that there is no heat associated with Hessdalen lights, which illiminates one type of possible cattle death.

[TheMcGuffin]

This is quite interesting:

http://home.cropcirc...-hessdalen.html

from the link:

As everyone knows, it is a circular explanation: no-one really knows what the earth lights are. The lights are seen (and filmed) mostly in night-time but the local people have also told about grey disc or cigar shaped objects in the air which don't reflect light. There haven't been any observations of aliens and no abductions have occurred though there's been a couple of strange animal deaths that resemble "animal mutilations".

possible interpretation issues.

I have also read that there is no heat associated with Hessdalen lights, which illiminates one type of possible cattle death.

My problem with plasmas, ball lightning and other similar explanations for UFOs is that they are usually very short duration events, generally only a fraction of a second or a few seconds in length, and I can't imagine them going on as long as this RB-47 incident or similar UFOs reported right around this time. I also can't imagine them responding correctly to encrypted IFF messages or showing up on radar and radar detection equipment for a prolonged period.

If they did, they must be the most remarkable plasmas on record, and ones for which I can find no evidence in the scientific literature. You'd think that such a remarkable phenomenon would by itself have provoked considerable scientific interest and curiosity because nothing like it had even been seen before.

[quillius]

My problem with plasmas, ball lightning and other similar explanations for UFOs is that they are usually very short duration events, generally only a fraction of a second or a few seconds in length, and I can't imagine them going on as long as this RB-47 incident or similar UFOs reported right around this time. I also can't imagine them responding correctly to encrypted IFF messages or showing up on radar and radar detection equipment for a prolonged period.

If they did, they must be the most remarkable plasmas on record, and ones for which I can find no evidence in the scientific literature. You'd think that such a remarkable phenomenon would by itself have provoked considerable scientific interest and curiosity because nothing like it had even been seen before.

The scientific interest in Hessdalen doesnt seem that great but I could be wrong with this perception, I am suprised that it isnt being jumped all over, this is however based on the premise of limited interest being correct.

not sure what to make of this article , some may be interested.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4270

I feel there is an underlying dig at the guys over at Hessdalen.

[Hazzard]

My problem with plasmas, ball lightning and other similar explanations for UFOs is that they are usually very short duration events, generally only a fraction of a second or a few seconds in length, and I can't imagine them going on as long as this RB-47 incident or similar UFOs reported right around this time. I also can't imagine them responding correctly to encrypted IFF messages or showing up on radar and radar detection equipment for a prolonged period.

If they did, they must be the most remarkable plasmas on record, and ones for which I can find no evidence in the scientific literature. You'd think that such a remarkable phenomenon would by itself have provoked considerable scientific interest and curiosity because nothing like it had even been seen before.

#109 in this very thread,... There is also ball lightning. It usually is seen shortly before or after, or during, a thunderstorm. Its duration varies from a few seconds to a few minutes.

Im not saying that plasma or ball lightning is to blame for all UFO sightings, but Im pretty sure its quite a few over the years.

[TheMcGuffin]

#109 in this very thread,... There is also ball lightning. It usually is seen shortly before or after, or during, a thunderstorm. Its duration varies from a few seconds to a few minutes.

Im not saying that plasma or ball lightning is to blame for all UFO sightings, but Im pretty sure its quite a few over the years.

It's a very old and shopworn explanation that goes back to the "foo fighters" of World War II, and perhaps it explains some of the short duration UFOs seen at night, but not something like the RB-47 case, which is far more complicated.

It is a good enough "explanation" to be fed to the incurious public, but also serves as a substitute for real thinking and analysis. If it had been an acceptable explanation for all or most UFOs, it would have been used a lot more over the years, except that it can't be made to fit all the facts. Nothing can.

Edited June 20, 2012 by TheMcGuffin