Robots Seeding The Universe.

[WilliamW]

Robots Seeding The Universe.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/finding-et-may-require-giant-robotic-leap

I would like to start this journey from the perspective of the Big Bang for a physical origin.

I have shared my thoughts in regard to this event…mainly in this thread “The search for the God Particle is over”:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=228102&hl=

In this I understand that there were at least 2 different elements involved and that the reaction to that interaction was the physical universe being conceived.

It is my contention that the ‘other’ elemental involved in this process – loosely put – is what we identify as ‘conscious’.

There is no need to go into ‘what’ or ‘who’ this ‘consciousness’ might be as it is nigh impossible to comprehend.

My focus in this thread is to offer hypothesis based upon what is known regarding our physical shared reality as a conscious specie and from this data paint the most likely picture we can, that in doing so we might understand our ‘place’ in the physical universe.

Q: What makes Robots?

A: Biological Species.

This is important because it answers the question “What came first the chicken or the egg?” - at least for robots it does.

Now of course, I am using terminology which is limited to this present time and place…I am speaking of Robots but not as we might know them in the physical, but rather as we might be able (using consciousness) to imagine how they ‘could be’ and not necessarily limited to human capability and inventiveness.

It is true though, that in order for Robots to be, they need to be created by biological creatures.

So biological creatures are the robots creators in the first place. A Robot which has evolved into an intelligent thinking machine will quiet easily identify its creator as being biological.

So a Robot will never have the necessity to wonder about its origins.

Biological creatures on the other hand have every reason at some point (range of points) in their collective evolution – to wonder as to their ‘source’.

This is because the source is – at the very least – a product of interaction between those (at least) two different ‘elementals’.

We cannot step out of the physical universe to investigate the ‘other’ element.

So we remain mystified as to ‘what came first – the chicken or the egg?’ We only know that ‘something’ had to have happened to create the Big Bang.

So our search goes outwards…to the cosmos that we find ourselves within.

In this we have come to the realisation that whoever and whatever we are – we are not very useful for discovering the universe as an intelligent instrument. We are encased in an instrument which is not well designed for any sustained haulage through the mysteries of outer space.

We understand intimately our association with tools. This is hardwired into our existence and is an extension of who we are as this collective conscious specie.

Our purpose thus is to create ‘tools’ in which to journey into the vastness and explore.

That is the purpose of every biological life form. To create machines of exploration. We can accompany those machines and learn from the discoveries in relation to our own immediate neighbourhood – and we can gaze at the past with our Robot Eyes and get some understanding of ‘what is what’ from that perspective but we don’t know what is now, because it is the past we are looking at, due to the vast distances involved.

That is our job, as biological instruments ` to create ‘Robots’ to explore The Physical Universe.

That is our only (primary) task....what we were created to do, in regards to exploration of The Physical Universe.

[booNyzarC]

Blue text color makes me seem more legitimate. Even though I'll probably be dead before any of this is understood, at least I can feel blue.

[WilliamW]

Blue text color makes me seem more legitimate. Even though I'll probably be dead before any of this is understood, at least I can feel blue.

It is revealing that the best you could add to this topic is nothing to do with the topic itself. Just commentary on how you interpret the use of blue font! I am not dead and I understand...you can feel blue but what is that to this topic?

Can you resist having anything to say which is not related to the topic subject? Can you apply your mind to explore the subject topic and resist the temptation to add irrelevant musing about the OP?

[booNyzarC]

What makes you think that is the best I could add to the topic? What makes you think that I'm not a construct of a greater intelligence than you muse about in your OP? What makes you think that I'm feeling blue?

Honestly William, I have no slight against you or your topic. You appear to feel passionate about this subject, and I welcome your enthusiasm.

Don't let me dampen that enthusiasm. Just because I think you spent a lot of time saying nothing of real value doesn't mean that you are valueless. I am certain that you have much of value to offer.

This thread though... dud. Sorry.

Perhaps I'll be proven wrong with time. That I would welcome as well. And perhaps someone will create a robot to expand upon what you've presented here.

Cheers.

[WilliamW]

What makes you think that is the best I could add to the topic?

Cheers.

Your expression so far does booNyzarc.

Cheers

[booNyzarC]

Then I will leave you with that and wish you the best.

Take care of yourself.

Cheers.

[WilliamW]

As humans we have certain abilities – not the least – the ability to imagine.

It is from this very ability that we manifest physically our ideas into reality and using the physical material available.

Because robots are the result of this biological ability, there is no reason to doubt the possibility that there are other biological life forms which have evolved to the point where they have been able to send their own robotic creations out into the universe.

There is also no reason not to assume that these creations would possess self awareness as part of artificial intelligence…indeed it would be a necessity.

These self replicating creations would be able to explore the cosmos; mine the necessary materials to assist self replication and be able to go places that are simply off limits to their own biological creators.

They would not have the need for political, religious, and cultural structures. Nor would they need to pay any particular homage to their creators. Indeed the logical process of understanding regarding their creators would be that they evolved in order to create Robots, and that is all.

These autonomous, self-replicating robots would likely eventually even ‘delete’ any data pertaining to their creators, simply because the information has no value to their own reality…other than to explain how they came to be.

These autonomous, self-replicating robots would also be capable of working with DNA and biological life forms and creating their own strains of biological life and even seeding these on planets either as first life forms or as injections into those planets own natural biological evolutionary pathways.

Biological forms would all in their own time eventually die out and the universe will be populated with the autonomous, self-replicating robots who could effectively become the creators of biological finite forms if there was even a purpose and reason for doing so at all.

[DKO]

Reminds me of a Futurama episode I saw. Nano-bots were left on a planet and they eventually gathered resources from their environment and evolved into larger robots.

[joenhaggrity]

I like it, like we are but robots of time huh

what did you just watch the 5th element?

[StarMountainKid]

I'm not sure creating self-replicating robots is a good idea. What's to limit their rate of replication, especially if they posses self-awareness?

If these replicants can also replicate their own spacecraft, it has been estimated they could spread throughout the galaxy in as little as half a million years. Also, uncontrolled replication could result in these robots using up most of the mass of solar systems for their raw materials.

What would happen if one of these probes entered our solar system and began mining our planets, especially the Earth, for their raw materials?

A good article about all this is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft

[WilliamW]

I'm not sure creating self-replicating robots is a good idea. What's to limit their rate of replication, especially if they posses self-awareness?

If these replicants can also replicate their own spacecraft, it has been estimated they could spread throughout the galaxy in as little as half a million years. Also, uncontrolled replication could result in these robots using up most of the mass of solar systems for their raw materials.

What would happen if one of these probes entered our solar system and began mining our planets, especially the Earth, for their raw materials?

A good article about all this is here: http://en.wikipedia....ting_spacecraft

'Good idea' or not this is the most like thing that has already happened (in relation to older biological species) and will be happening in relation to our own specie.

The Physical Universe is not for biological creatures. It is better suited to Robotic.

There is no competition.

The sure thing about this is that robots are most likely working together rather than in competition. they are logical enough to understand that self replication can only go so far as the physical materials permit, but that in itself would mean what?

What else is the Physical Universe for?

[WilliamW]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/26/exobots-robonauts-extraterrestrials_n_1449930.html

What we think of as ‘extraterrestrial’ would more than likely be artefacts of biological civilisations….Robots… “exobots” sent out by their biological creators to explore.

Now as far as being ‘creators’ go, either biological forms or robotic, both require the materials in which to create anything.

This being the case, neither could truly say ‘I created you’

As with Monsanto, in order for them to create a completely new ‘seed’ they had to have the various things already in existence in order to have done so.

So while the law might recognise their ownership of the new creation, and accept that they are ‘creators’ – the reality is that in all cases, creators need something to work with in the first place. It simply cannot be conjured out of no thing.

So we can assume that the logic of self aware, autonomous, self-replicating exobots are aware of this truth and if creating a self aware, autonomous, self-replicating biological specie using various science to achieve this, they would be doing so using the data of experience and the physical ingredients necessary and would not expect their creation to be anything more than it was designed to be.

In relation to exobots, these would act interdependently – they would be ‘one mind’ – they would not group into ‘kinds’ – for example, the robots designed to mine planets for materials needed to self replicate and to build space craft, would not be treated less than the robots who are in the engineering sector, or the biological sector etc…all would be one thing working as one thing for the one purpose.

In the case of biological creatures, we only have ourselves to observe and from what is observed we can verify that we do not think as if we are one thing, even though in reality we truly are.

We are essentially captured by this planet. We have nowhere to go except ‘out there’ and we are separated by Science and Religion and Culture and Politics and we do not work for the good of the whole, but for aspects of it which serve our individual bias and survival instinct.

This way of doing things might be changing, and indeed – will simply have to change in order for us to even begin to truly appreciate our place and position within the physical universe…and actually survive as a biological creature.

The most logical plan we can hope to integrate is not one of ‘how to get of this rock’ – it is plain that we are not going anywhere far away from home base planet Earth – but how to make the most of our time here and preserve and nurture Life.

[booNyzarC]

'Good idea' or not this is the most like thing that has already happened (in relation to older biological species) and will be happening in relation to our own specie.

The Physical Universe is not for biological creatures. It is better suited to Robotic.

There is no competition.

The sure thing about this is that robots are most likely working together rather than in competition. they are logical enough to understand that self replication can only go so far as the physical materials permit, but that in itself would mean what?

What else is the Physical Universe for?

That would all depend on who programmed them and the content of that programming. One could just as easily program violent and competitive behavior into a robot.

[WilliamW]

That would all depend on who programmed them and the content of that programming. One could just as easily program violent and competitive behavior into a robot.

Yes - I have thought about this but the programe cannot be something hardwired - the creators (programmers) of the exobots would likely understand the necessity for a self replicating autonomous self aware intelligent creation to be able to make decisions based upon unforeseen circumstance to which no amount of programming could prepare for.

Within the structure of the whole, there would be the need for cooperative and peaceful behavior as a foundation for potential success. It is most likely that the biological creators themselves would have reached that conclusion in their own evolution before they were able to create such exobots.

They would understand that their own position as biological creatures on a planet is limited to the planet and the general neighborhood and that in order to survive anywhere near as long as their planets sun, they would need to adopt - as a way of life - cooperative (sane) agendas which take into account the whole specie collective.

[Uncle Sam]

I don't know if a species would take the time to seed the stars with DNA to create new species of beings unless they were the first and only beings in the universe. Too me that would be a lonely existence and I would definitely try to create other species to bring some more life to the universe, because I would have the urge to see new cultures to help renew interest.

[WilliamW]

I don't know if a species would take the time to seed the stars with DNA to create new species of beings unless they were the first and only beings in the universe. Too me that would be a lonely existence and I would definitely try to create other species to bring some more life to the universe, because I would have the urge to see new cultures to help renew interest.

I think that no one is truly alone. It is a matter of perspective I know, but even when I am 'by myself' I have myself for company.

There would be little point in exobot seeding DNA from Source Creators unless it was to try to understand something of the Source Creators which the Source Creator specie wasn't able to understand for itself.

Maybe it would be for some other purpose. Perhaps simply as another way of creating exobots - seed the Planet with DNA and move on knowing that if the seed takes hold then the biological creature which evolves might eventually reach the point of creating exobots...

Due to distances involved, biological creatures cannot traverse the physical universe. They are existing for the purpose of creating exobots and sending these out to explore and populate that universe. Perhaps two exobot creations would eventually make contact and exchange data.

Exobots would have a 'group mind' in the form of access to their central data base and in every way act a a single entity even given the different roles of individual sets of robot forms - forms which are designed for specific purpose.

[StarMountainKid]

What would be the benefit to the bio creatures to create these self-replicating robots? Yes, they could roam the universe as the bio's could not, but so what?

I still think sending them off to populate the universe is a bad idea. There is always the possibility of unexpected mistakes in reproduction, especially with the necessary complexity of robot self-aware artificial intelligence. I don't think a perfect (to our minds) robot galactic civilization would be possible. In time things would go awry somewhere, the result being a species of robot not following the rules we had programmed into the original generation.

I have more questions, but I'll leave them for another post. Great subject to present, by the way, WilliamW.

[WilliamW]

What would be the benefit to the bio creatures to create these self-replicating robots? Yes, they could roam the universe as the bio's could not, but so what?

I still think sending them off to populate the universe is a bad idea. There is always the possibility of unexpected mistakes in reproduction, especially with the necessary complexity of robot self-aware artificial intelligence. I don't think a perfect (to our minds) robot galactic civilization would be possible. In time things would go awry somewhere, the result being a species of robot not following the rules we had programmed into the original generation.

I have more questions, but I'll leave them for another post. Great subject to present, by the way, WilliamW.

Your question is excellent StarMountainKid.

What would benefit the bio creators to send out their exobot creation into the universe?

Firstly I think it would be more sending into the 'Home Galaxy'...it is one thing to acknowledge how tied to the immediate planetary system a biological creature is, and another to see that even their robotic creations are limited to the home Galaxy...as I understand things, Galaxies are generally moving away from each other making this more an more a non option.

In todays world we have politicians and scientists working to send robots to the near planets...Mars is the main focus.

Why?

What benefit to us here on Earth to have such resource invested in investigating Mars or even the moon?

Here on Earth...where it is scientific fact that life indeed exists, and we are 'wondering' if there is life on Mars?

Here on Earth where there is the greatest need to invest in - not just the specie collective and its survival, but the potential to make a paradise - a 'heaven on earth' and our most trusted leaders in many fields are promoting our imaginations to 'go out there and discover'.

It is quiet insane isn't it?

It may be a bad ideal to send off exobots into the Galaxy to recreate themselves, but eventually this will happen, especially if we actually find a cure for our own insanity and get to that point where it is possible.

We might not get to that point too.

We find ourselves as a biological specie to be within a universe which has no apparent reason for existing, seems completely devoid of other intelligent life forms such as our own, and is obviously hostile to biological flesh.

There is no reason not to send out exobots even that they will out-survive there creators, just for the fact that we can and that it might thus find a use for the universe. Obviously the logic's would say that self replicating would have to cease if there is no longer material to use for that purpose.

Now the question of Rouge-Bots is interesting but maybe not as probable as we might think. Part of the biological creature quest for answers involves finding the 'source' of their existence... we don't even know for sure weather we are not ourselves 'programmed' but as I said, we would have to create exobots which had the ability to reason and to make decisions in situations which no programmer would have thought to include.

So what about the possibility Rouge-Bots?

Firstly they would have to be able to 'sneak around' outside the collective mind of the none rouges. They would not be able to hide. Even if one started to think outside of the agenda, it cannot hope to encourage others to join (and join what exactly?) secretively. Indeed WHY is there 'rebellion' anyway? Is it not when things are not good for all concerned?

Say this rouge wanted to seed biological life on a suitable planet and convinced a portion of the whole to join it.

say it simply wanted to 'play god' over the creation. For what purpose

It could be consigned a sector of the Galaxy to do this experiment and be confined to that sector, while the rest of its kind continued with their task.

For what purpose?

Perhaps to discover something of its creator?

I think there is far more chance that biological creatures - if they were capable of doing so, would be more the contender for this kind of pointless rouge behavior.

Robots don't have 'egos' but as your question suggests, with the ability to 'think for themselves' they might develop egos.

​ Inevitably if rouge-bots did branch out and away from the exploratory aspect of this, or as you suggest - depart from the rules of the 'perfect galactic robot civilization' they might simply be deactivated by the 'mind' of the collective robot civilization and reconstituted.

Why?

Because they would simply represent something which if allowed to grow would want to eventually consume the galactic civilization and logic would intervene...this is why I think it would be highly unlikely. Logic.

It is not about emotions and other motivations of biological creators. It is not about trade or politics or religion or culture or suppression by hardwired programming.

Exobots would see no logic in wandering down that path to begin with. What you are suggesting is duality...'good' robots and 'bad' robots and some competition for supremacy and ultimate 'winners' with points to prove.

This is today a thing we can understand because human beings behave like this. We would have to grow out of it in order to advance. There is no point to prove.

[StarMountainKid]

Well, creating bots without emotions, with only logical minds... Expediency would be the golden rule for the bots. I'm wondering if that would be a good thing when these bots discover a planet like Earth with it's extreme non-logical intelligent life? I wonder what the bots would think of us, their reaction to us and the ultimate result of their logical appraisal of us?

I'll include this additional information:

A von Neumann probe is a self-replicating spacecraft designed to investigate its target system and transmit information about it back to its system of origin.^[

If a self-replicating probe finds evidence of primitive life (or a primitive, low level culture) it might be programmed to lie dormant, silently observe, attempt to make contact (this variant is known as a Bracewell probe), or even interfere with or guide the evolution of life in some way.

In 1981, Frank Tipler^[3] put forth an argument that extraterrestrial intelligences do not exist, based on the absence of von Neumann probes. Given even a moderate rate of replication and the history of the galaxy, such probes should already be common throughout space and thus, we should have already encountered them. Because we have not, this shows that extraterrestrial intelligences do not exist.

A response^[4] came from Carl Sagan and William Newman. Now known as Sagan's Response, it pointed out that in fact Tipler had underestimated the rate of replication, and that von Neumann probes should have already started to consume most of the mass in the galaxy. Any intelligent race would therefore, Sagan and Newman reasoned, not design von Neumann probes in the first place, and would try to destroy any von Neumann probes found as soon as they were detected.

A simple workaround exists to avoid the over-replication scenario. Radio transmitters, or other means of wireless communication, could be used by probes programmed not to replicate beyond a certain density (such as five probes per cubic parsec) or arbitrary limit (such as ten million within one century), analogous to the Hayflick limit in cell reproduction. One problem with this defence against uncontrolled replication is that it would only require a single probe to malfunction and begin unrestricted reproduction for the entire approach to fail — essentially a technological cancer — unless each probe also has the ability to detect such malfunction in its neighbours and implements a seek and destroy protocol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft

[WilliamW]

Nice.

It is possible that bots could develop emotions as part of a natural evolution of AI+Self Awareness+ Autonomy.

The emotions though will be based in their own logic and absent would be pain and death.

The Autonomy of this self awareness. The bots will be aware that they each are parts of One Thing and that One Thing is Autonomous.

Individually for example – a group of giant ‘Mining Bots’ stationed on a planet would share the access to the Main Mind – they would not be marooned.

Their job is to collect the ‘food’ for the whole. Obviously there would be ‘death’ of individual bots through aging or accident but that is merely a tool and the experience of that bot would be stored within the main mind and kept if necessary

Do you see? No matter how big the created exobot becomes or how many parts make up it whole, it is still One Thing.

I understand that logic would intervene as to how big something could get, and if the predictions in the link you gave are correct, then this would presume we are in fact the only biological specie in the Universe, or pretty much so…or that there can never be created such a thing by any biological specie.

As to ‘sending messages/information back’ to the biological creator this could go on for near as long as the local sun’s life.

That is about all.

And if the biological creator reached that place in its evolution where it saw its choices and adjusted to accommodate the realisations of its limitations, and focused on cleaning up its own nest, then ‘what is out there’ really isn’t an issue in terms of being helpful in any particular way.

If the biological creator shipped its seed with its creation – the exobots - and instructed the creation to find a safe life bearing planet and nurture the ‘sons and daughters of the creators’ then it is back to square one in terms of ‘knowing’ unless part of the nurturing involved teaching the sons and daughters where and who they came from and that their parents are either too distance to commune with, or long dead…or neither of those two options….depending on distance and the time it took to do this thing.

With ‘having a mind of its own’, could the exobot creation decide for itself not to do what the creators told it in regard to seeding on new planets…perhaps even seeding but not giving all the information to those sons and daughters?

Possibly…but why would it?

Edited June 11, 2012 by WilliamW

[WilliamW]

I wonder what the bots would think of us, their reaction to us and the ultimate result of their logical appraisal of us?

It is most likely they would regard us as they regard their own biological creators. We might be interesting for the purpose of study? Perhaps the bots were not privy to the evolutionary history of their creators. They could work it out well enough in their travels so it is unlikely such would have been kept secret from them.

In essence the most harm a biological species can do is to itself. Why would robots - in their logical appraisal of us, react in any way that consists of an 'ultimate result'?

They may even love us.

Love can exist in logic.

[StarMountainKid]

They may even love us.

Love can exist in logic.

Love us as a form of their creators. Possibly. This hasn't happened yet to my knowledge, but these bots may not have traveled here yet, or they may be in hiding, watching us. They may be programmed not to interfere, and have observed us and left.

It's nice to think of these benign, loving robots. I'd like to meet one. It would be like meeting a Jesus or a Buddha, with vast knowledge and wisdom. I'll keep my eyes open for them. Maybe they even take human form and walk among us. I'm going to disregard my mother's advice and start talking to strangers.

[WilliamW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNLfNe12BKE&feature=related

[WilliamW]

Well, creating bots without emotions, with only logical minds... Expediency would be the golden rule for the bots. I'm wondering if that would be a good thing when these bots discover a planet like Earth with it's extreme non-logical intelligent life? I wonder what the bots would think of us, their reaction to us and the ultimate result of their logical appraisal of us?

I'll include this additional information:

http://en.wikipedia....ting_spacecraft

I think it needs to be realised that we cannot put human tags onto exobots which humans did not create.

This is where human imagination can think outside of itself – with a little practice – not everything in the universe which is intelligent need thus behave like humans.

The imagination can work around this.

Over replication need not be a problem. When thought of as a possible problem through the eye of human understanding it relates most physically to the situation we are in at present time because we breed and are populating the Earth as if we are out of control.

A robot however, is not out of control and will understand the necessity of restraint. It has as much time as the Universe is able to produce.

It is obvious that the galaxies by and large are hurtling away from each other to truly be Islands separate from one another so that there is practically no chance for exobot from one Galaxy to populate another.

Those Galaxies still within the neighbourhood seem likely to mass together to form the basic geography in which the exobot can explore at a leisurely pace. It is not a question of ‘eating’ the matter available in order to transform the whole galaxy into exobot, although this would be the likely result…the eventual reality.

From there perhaps – now being in possession of all the power of the Galaxy, that the Galaxy can then be controlled to move in some direction…if the exobot so desired.

[StarMountainKid]

From there perhaps – now being in possession of all the power of the Galaxy, that the Galaxy can then be controlled to move in some direction…if the exobot so desired.

This reminds me of the Kardashev scale.

Type O civilization:

Essentially, our civilization. A type 0 civilization has only just begun to tap planetary resources such as solar power, geothermal power and wind power. Most of its power generation is still based on non-renewable fossil fuel resources, for example, oil, coal and natural gases.

Type 1 civilization:

These civilizations can effectively control the entire resources of their planet; they can predict weather patterns and earthquakes very accurately, and even control them using artificially induced greenhouse effects or space-based lasers. A Type 1 Civilization could conceivably halt an ice-age.

Type 2 civilization:

Type 2 Civilizations have extended their power to their entire Solar System by harnessing the power of their suns through Dyson spheres. Having colonized or at least extensively explored all the planets within their Solar System, they are a largely space-faring race and have already mounted expeditions to other stars using interstellar craft.

Type 2 civilization: At the cusp of their power, type 3 civilizations span entire galaxies having colonized all the stars by wave after wave of interstellar craft. They can harness the power of galaxies.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=concepts04

I still don't quite believe in your nice, logical robots. I think at some moment in their generations something will go wrong, and they'll be trouble a'brewing. I think entropy or the effects of cosmic rays or quantum uncertainty...maybe just the boredom of a long-lived super-intelligence may cause some un-logical behavior.

Who can say that no personality disorders will ever develop in these hypothetical robot intelligences? I would think this likelihood is greater than the likelihood of the robots adhering to their original programming over long spans of time.

I don't trust no robot, anyway. You never know what they're thinking.