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Gay Marriage


ranrod

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I'm just curious about something. If you 'admit you're bigotted' why not try and change it? Why maintain it?

For the same reasons I go to church even though I know logically and scientifically that the world was not created in a couple days by a being of infinite energy. For the same reason I know that Romney is a double talking scoundrel who will get little done if elected, yet will vote for him. For the same reason I drive a beat up car, though I have the money to fix it.... inertia mostly, and some of stubbornness, and part community based. I think I can know what is real and yet still hold opinions that are, if not contrary, then off angle with the facts. Especially if all your friends and family hold the same opinions.

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I just heard the divorce rate of baby boomers has doubled. I'm sure it's because they all left their families to find a gay lover and get married.

On a serious note, anyone know the divorce rates for gay couples vs. hetero's?

I heard (somewhere) that it was compareable. Basically the same across age groups and ethnicities.

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Yes that's true. So what's the argument most anti-gay marriage people use? Is it just the fact that it's a sin? Many things are a sin in the bible as you and others point out, do we outlaw all of them? Do we deny legal rights to people who deny the bible god?

No, I don't believe in trying to outlaw anyone's behavior just because it's sin. Christians are called upon to love, not judge. Those who judge are misguided in my opinion. The US is a secular country whose morals were based on Judeo Christian values but it's still a secular government and I'm glad that it is.
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It is only different in the target of the affection. It might very well be that homosexuality and pediphilia are caused by slightly different expression of the same gene sequence.

By that logical hetrosexuality, too, is simply a 'different target of affection'. Especially since pedophilia is, more often than not, men on girls.

For the same reasons I go to church even though I know logically and scientifically that the world was not created in a couple days by a being of infinite energy. For the same reason I know that Romney is a double talking scoundrel who will get little done if elected, yet will vote for him. For the same reason I drive a beat up car, though I have the money to fix it.... inertia mostly, and some of stubbornness, and part community based. I think I can know what is real and yet still hold opinions that are, if not contrary, then off angle with the facts. Especially if all your friends and family hold the same opinions.

That's a rather strange logic, I have to say. I'm glad people don't hold it as a majority, because if we did we'd be stuck, not moving forward in any way out of sheer stubboness.

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By that logical hetrosexuality, too, is simply a 'different target of affection'. Especially since pedophilia is, more often than not, men on girls.

That's a rather strange logic, I have to say. I'm glad people don't hold it as a majority, because if we did we'd be stuck, not moving forward in any way out of sheer stubboness.

But many people do think this way. When you boil it down to what is left, basically he is going with the flow of those around him.

Sort of like in high school, you get your lil clique and you do not want to be looked down on by them, so you follow their lead.

Most humans do it :)

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By that logical hetrosexuality, too, is simply a 'different target of affection'. Especially since pedophilia is, more often than not, men on girls.

Excepting that male-female sex is necessary for procreation, I'd agree with you. Male-female attraction is very culturally influenced, but there probably is some genetic baseline, and that would be heterosexuality.

Pedophilia is usually not about underage (Teens and preteen) girls, it is about children, who are usually androgenous till puberty.

That's a rather strange logic, I have to say. I'm glad people don't hold it as a majority, because if we did we'd be stuck, not moving forward in any way out of sheer stubboness.

Perhaps you havn't noticed the number of states that have failed to pass same-sex marriage?? That logic pattern is actually the majority. Dispite whatever science says or logic, most people are illogical in their decisions. I am not in general an exception.

Edited by DieChecker
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When Christ takes the centre stage the apocolypse will come.

You will portray him as the next Hitler and attack him because he is against homosexuals and liberals. No matter how many wage war remember Christ will win.

Your Christ offends me.

When Thor returns he's going to punch Christ right in the mouth and then smash Yahweh in the balls with his hammer.

Thor - 1

Christ - 0

Yahweh - 0

My God wins.

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An interesting article on New York gay marriage.

http://www.theatlant...-divorce/53829/

On July 30, the first Saturday that gay marriages could be performed in New York City, Katie in a magenta dress and Des in skinny jeans and pink Chuck Taylors joined 23 other couples at the Pop Up Chapel, a one-day wedding event in Central Park, as part of New York City’s first wave of legally married gay couples. By January, though, things had started to come apart. Des and Katie have since separated and moved out of their Washington Heights apartment. They're now one of the first married gay couples — if not the very first — in New York to divorce.

Kind of sad. :(

Their research found that on average the divorce rate for same-sex couples is similar to, though slightly lower than, the rate for different-sex couples.
Edited by DieChecker
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I've said it before, I'll likely say it again.

I don't care. I'd prefer every human to have the same rights. Straight, gay, bigot, non-bigot.

As a person of faith, I will say this: Take away the state/national rights to church marriage. Allow anyone to be State or Nationally bound, with all rights and privileges.

If people want to be married, let them. I personally am not harmed by homosexual relationships (The relationships baffle me, but I am small minded).

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I see no honest reason to deny anyone equal rights that we in western world declare to be a greater culture for. I am straight, but I support equal rights for everyone. Religion has or should have no say in poltics. Should have no say in fedral law or dictation of law. I understand the religious believers often feel threatened by things they do not understand, I'm not saying all of them cause I have met more than a few god lovers that actually believe the gay community deserve equality.

The bible is an old book, I never found it to be the word of god, only man's belief in what they think god wants, and sure has some good values within it, but it's out dated. Life changes, things change, and it's not like homosexuality is a new concept, was quite common and acceptable prior to spread of christianity. It was never seen as taboo.

I have gay friends which have better relationships, better values, better morals and ethics than my straight friends. Not saying all do, like every single damn person o the planet, each is their own person. Homosexuality has become the new "black or white" bigotry, 30+ years ago was wrong for black and white to marry, now it's common and accepted. Human race seems to need something to rage against...unfortunatly its homosexualitys turn...few years..will be left handed people maybe lol

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But many people do think this way. When you boil it down to what is left, basically he is going with the flow of those around him.

Sort of like in high school, you get your lil clique and you do not want to be looked down on by them, so you follow their lead.

Most humans do it :)

I guess. It just seems kind of sad. And if people felt that way about everything, nothing would get better. By sheer stubboness we'd not develop better medical treatments and social injustices would still occur. I guess some people do get stuck in a rut with it though.

Excepting that male-female sex is necessary for procreation, I'd agree with you. Male-female attraction is very culturally influenced, but there probably is some genetic baseline, and that would be heterosexuality.

Pedophilia is usually not about underage (Teens and preteen) girls, it is about children, who are usually androgenous till puberty.

It would be interesting to find out how many people are hetrosexual only because they are 'supposed to' because of the culture around them. It does seem that, historically, many people have only got married not because they wanted it but because it was expected of them.

True. But still, the arguements for relations with children is rather thin on the ground, Whereas the arguements for relationships between two constenting adults is much stronger.

Perhaps you havn't noticed the number of states that have failed to pass same-sex marriage?? That logic pattern is actually the majority. Dispite whatever science says or logic, most people are illogical in their decisions. I am not in general an exception.

I have noticed and it is unfortunate. However, in the past civil rights weren't put to a vote . (If they were do you really thin that slaves would have been freed or women got the right to vote?) I'm curious what exactly makes this civil right the exception.

Hopefully, as with any previous logic patterns (ie sexism and rascism) that this too shall pass. Hopefully any future children I have will look back at this with the same puzzlement I do at opposition to interacial marriages.

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Politically I'm against the normalization of homosexuality.

Yes, there is a small minority of the population who experience different sexual desires than the rest of us. Some are paedophiles, some like animals and some are attracted to the same sex. Regardless of liberal indocturnation I view them all as deviant behaviour.

Marriage shouldnt be undermined to keep a minority who experience different a sexual desire happy. Its like getting rid of the age of consent so paedophiles can 'have their rights'.

I'm shocked at whats happening so much so that I might emigrate. Morally the West is collapsing into the gutter.

Thanks for your input. It's exactly what I was looking for. I want to focus on homosexuality as opposed to the other issues you mentioned such as pedophilia. I don't want to lump or compare those things to each other.

In your opinion, homosexuality represents deviant behavior and thus you don't want this country normalizing it - as a nation we should maintain that such behavior is deviant, and its practitioners immoral.

Not being gay I can only speak as I understand it, but I believe it goes beyond the sexual act. Sure there are both hetero and homosexual people who are into pleasure for pleasure's sake, but those are not the people we're talking about here. It is about connecting with another human being, wanting to share a life, a spiritual connection, finding a companion for life, the love of your life, buy a house, and even raise kids. All the things you associate with a partner of the opposite sex. As difficult as it would be for you to pretend to be Gay and live the Gay lifestyle, it is for them to pretend to be hetero and live the hetero lifestyle. Asking them to stop their 'deviant' behavior is seen as ridiculous to them as it would be for you to be asked to behave gay. Since us heteros are in the grand majority, it is unfortunate that we get to judge how they live their lives to a great extent. I know I'd hate for my fate to be on the hands of the masses.

That being said, the main societal issue to resolve is the very practical matters associated with people sharing a life: taxes, estate planning, hospital visits, power of attorney, etc. These are some of the biggest motivators to pass this issue through legislature. Although gay couples constitute a minority, about 3% of the population, it is a sizable number in a country of 300 million. Handling these issues would improve society not only for the gay couples, but on the infrastructure who has to deal with the issues.

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Some of you are confused. This is not about sexual desires, pedophiles don't love children, bestiality isn't loving the animal, homosexuality is LOVING another person of the same gender. Not just sexual. I can assure you.

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Some of you are confused. This is not about sexual desires, pedophiles don't love children, bestiality isn't loving the animal, homosexuality is LOVING another person of the same gender. Not just sexual. I can assure you.

As usual, brilliantly and concisely said.

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As usual, brilliantly and concisely said.

<3 aha.. you make me blush

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What I find most sad about this subject is how willing both sides are to become hateful twards each other.

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What I find most sad about this subject is how willing both sides are to become hateful twards each other.

Both sides are standing up for what they believe in - which are diametrically opposed positions.

Is hating on haters just as bad as being a hater? :huh:

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Thanks for your input. It's exactly what I was looking for. I want to focus on homosexuality as opposed to the other issues you mentioned such as pedophilia. I don't want to lump or compare those things to each other.

In your opinion, homosexuality represents deviant behavior and thus you don't want this country normalizing it - as a nation we should maintain that such behavior is deviant, and its practitioners immoral.

Not being gay I can only speak as I understand it, but I believe it goes beyond the sexual act. Sure there are both hetero and homosexual people who are into pleasure for pleasure's sake, but those are not the people we're talking about here. It is about connecting with another human being, wanting to share a life, a spiritual connection, finding a companion for life, the love of your life, buy a house, and even raise kids. All the things you associate with a partner of the opposite sex. As difficult as it would be for you to pretend to be Gay and live the Gay lifestyle, it is for them to pretend to be hetero and live the hetero lifestyle. Asking them to stop their 'deviant' behavior is seen as ridiculous to them as it would be for you to be asked to behave gay. Since us heteros are in the grand majority, it is unfortunate that we get to judge how they live their lives to a great extent. I know I'd hate for my fate to be on the hands of the masses.

That being said, the main societal issue to resolve is the very practical matters associated with people sharing a life: taxes, estate planning, hospital visits, power of attorney, etc. These are some of the biggest motivators to pass this issue through legislature. Although gay couples constitute a minority, about 3% of the population, it is a sizable number in a country of 300 million. Handling these issues would improve society not only for the gay couples, but on the infrastructure who has to deal with the issues.

The State stopped placing emphasis on Christain and family values a couple of decades back.

You may think that was a good move as it gave homosexuals equality but its also bad in that it gave us our broken society. Right now our society is the worst I've ever seen it and I say that remembering what it was like from before the changes. The emphasis of the state should not be individuals but the society as a whole otherwise you get dysfunctional behaviour.

For homosexuals to gain equality the liberals had to undermine psychology - http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html - Reading the whole article indicates plenty of research was ignored indicating homosexuals are people who suffer from emotional oversensitivity. Suicide rates are a lot higher with them and is triggered by relationship breakups (emotional oversensitivity), they suffer from high rates of depression and substance abuse, promiscuity and anti-social personality disorders. While most of these things wouldnt get someone labelled mentality ill there are unadressed issues there.

Social stigma against homosexuals is not the cause of the above problems. Homosexuals living in a gay friendly or anti-gay community suffer exactly the same rates.

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The State stopped placing emphasis on Christain and family values a couple of decades back.

You may think that was a good move as it gave homosexuals equality but its also bad in that it gave us our broken society. Right now our society is the worst I've ever seen it and I say that remembering what it was like from before the changes. The emphasis of the state should not be individuals but the society as a whole otherwise you get dysfunctional behaviour.

For homosexuals to gain equality the liberals had to undermine psychology - http://www.narth.com.../whitehead.html - Reading the whole article indicates plenty of research was ignored indicating homosexuals are people who suffer from emotional oversensitivity. Suicide rates are a lot higher with them and is triggered by relationship breakups (emotional oversensitivity), they suffer from high rates of depression and substance abuse, promiscuity and anti-social personality disorders. While most of these things wouldnt get someone labelled mentality ill there are unadressed issues there.

Social stigma against homosexuals is not the cause of the above problems. Homosexuals living in a gay friendly or anti-gay community suffer exactly the same rates.

Blaming homosexuals for broken society is rather absurd and blatent scapegoating. I actually find it rather sad how many people are just willing to blame some minority for problems that have nothing to do with them. Disappointingly it works. Instead of dealing with the actual problem it's much easier to demonise some other group for it instead.

And what do you suggest? Treat being gay as a mental illness that needs to be 'cured'? People have tried and it's been proven (numerous times) that such 'treatments' just don't work and have no medical basis.

I always find such claims to be rather dubious. The people that make them and hold onto them are those like you: they think homosexuality is wrong from the start and try their very best to provide supporting evidence.

Suicide rates and other issues are higher, but they are for a reason and that really is due to anti-gay people. Just because someone lives in a gay friendly community doesn't mean they don't get bullied by anti-gay people. A lot of issues also have roots in earlier life, where gay people could be in very damaging environments that left them emotionally scarred for life. No gay person in those studies would have grown up without some anti-gay influence.

The answer is tackling those issues, instead of trying to sweep them under the rug or, worse (as you are doing) using it as a weapon.

Edited by shadowhive
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What I find most sad about this subject is how willing both sides are to become hateful twards each other.

Gays become defensive after being alienated and condemned their whole life for being born a certain way.

Christians become hateful because an ancient book tells them too.

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The State stopped placing emphasis on Christain and family values a couple of decades back.

You may think that was a good move as it gave homosexuals equality but its also bad in that it gave us our broken society. Right now our society is the worst I've ever seen it and I say that remembering what it was like from before the changes. The emphasis of the state should not be individuals but the society as a whole otherwise you get dysfunctional behaviour.

For homosexuals to gain equality the liberals had to undermine psychology - http://www.narth.com.../whitehead.html - Reading the whole article indicates plenty of research was ignored indicating homosexuals are people who suffer from emotional oversensitivity. Suicide rates are a lot higher with them and is triggered by relationship breakups (emotional oversensitivity), they suffer from high rates of depression and substance abuse, promiscuity and anti-social personality disorders. While most of these things wouldnt get someone labelled mentality ill there are unadressed issues there.

Social stigma against homosexuals is not the cause of the above problems. Homosexuals living in a gay friendly or anti-gay community suffer exactly the same rates.

You poor bigoted, uneducated fool. Blame the gays for a broken society. We're promiscuous? Yeah sure, who doesn't like sex? Straight people? Straight people don't like sex? ..alright. We're more likely to abuse substance? Is that a joke?? We're anti-social? For fracks sake, we're human. I want to scream this at the top of my lungs. Caps so people scanning notice it and read.

"WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS, JUST LIKE YOU IN EVER WAY. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS OUR ABILITY TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER IS DIFFERENT. YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF IDIOTIC STIGMA, IT'S UNFOUNDED AND UNEDUCATED, I HOPE YOU ROT IN HATRED WHILE I GO LOVE ANOTHER WOMAN KBAI."

*takes deep breath*

Educating one fool at a time.

post-126933-0-60319300-1340712653_thumb.

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The State stopped placing emphasis on Christain and family values a couple of decades back.

You may think that was a good move as it gave homosexuals equality but its also bad in that it gave us our broken society. Right now our society is the worst I've ever seen it and I say that remembering what it was like from before the changes. The emphasis of the state should not be individuals but the society as a whole otherwise you get dysfunctional behaviour.

For homosexuals to gain equality the liberals had to undermine psychology - http://www.narth.com.../whitehead.html - Reading the whole article indicates plenty of research was ignored indicating homosexuals are people who suffer from emotional oversensitivity. Suicide rates are a lot higher with them and is triggered by relationship breakups (emotional oversensitivity), they suffer from high rates of depression and substance abuse, promiscuity and anti-social personality disorders. While most of these things wouldnt get someone labelled mentality ill there are unadressed issues there.

Social stigma against homosexuals is not the cause of the above problems. Homosexuals living in a gay friendly or anti-gay community suffer exactly the same rates.

You are correct that it used to be categorized as a mental disorder. It got removed from the DSM due to protests from gay groups, not because the medical profession changed their minds. That said, it is no longer considered as such.

You are right about the depression, though I might disagree about the reasons. As I understand it from family members that are gay, growing up homosexual is psychologically difficult due to environmental reasons. Even in my very accepting family, the gay member suffered from depression. He felt ashamed, specially growing in a religious environment he felt consumed by guilt, he felt like he was broken and unable to fix it, and society as a whole seemed very intolerant - treating him like he WAS broken. Always having to hide his true self, always open to ridicule and hate, having to hide love interests, avoiding certain anti-gay family members (like me at the time - I was 12). The wrong move in public could cost him dearly if the wrong hater was nearby. It's a hard life from 12-21yo. In a way I feel bad that we keep trying to throw roadblocks in their already difficult existence. So people look at how depressed they can be, perhaps higher rates than average, and point that out as a reason for something being wrong with them? Self-fulfilling prophesy? Treating them like crap and when they cry, call them oversensitive?

For example, I can walk around holding hands with my GF, even kissing her in public - and guys may think I'm lucky to have that. When I see gay people doing the same, I hear people snickering, sometimes a hater will yell something out of a car, a conservative couple sometimes express their disgust or disapproval, and they might even be targeted. Don't you feel any sympathy for living in that situation? Do you think, "no, because they are choosing to live like that?"

As grown adults my gay family members are awesome people and as deserving to have happy family lives as anyone else. If they want to file taxes jointly or appoint their SO's to take care of them at hospitals, more power to them. It also serves a practical purpose to give them those rights.

Edited by ranrod
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What I find most sad about this subject is how willing both sides are to become hateful twards each other.

I find it sad too, but the trouble its that those against it are (mostly) deeply homophobic and thus, are bullies. The worst are those that use their religion and get others to become bullies because it's 'what god wants'. As aresult of all the near constant abuse that comes from those people, a lot of gay people have reached breaing point. Wouldn't you be? After all the hatred, all the vileness, all the judgement that's been thrown at them.

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It would be interesting to find out how many people are hetrosexual only because they are 'supposed to' because of the culture around them. It does seem that, historically, many people have only got married not because they wanted it but because it was expected of them.

True. But still, the arguements for relations with children is rather thin on the ground, Whereas the arguements for relationships between two constenting adults is much stronger.

I think the numbers of "hidden gays" is very overestimated. I've heard some pro-gay pundits say that 25% of the population is gay and just are in denial. I think even 5% is really a high estimate.

Your reference to consenting adults is only the most current idea, and is just as fixed as hetero-only people. Time changes fashions and changes what is normal. Not that it is bad, I just am making a point.

I have noticed and it is unfortunate. However, in the past civil rights weren't put to a vote . (If they were do you really thin that slaves would have been freed or women got the right to vote?) I'm curious what exactly makes this civil right the exception.

Hopefully, as with any previous logic patterns (ie sexism and rascism) that this too shall pass. Hopefully any future children I have will look back at this with the same puzzlement I do at opposition to interacial marriages.

I think what is different about this civil right is that gays look just like everyone else. There is no way to "see" a gay person. Blacks, women, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans... all are usually readily identifiable by vision alone. Being gay is more nebulous, as to be discriminated against, first you mucst openly state your status as being gay, just as a Jew, or a Christian, or a Buddist would have to do. This can be done through activities, clothing or words.

I think being gay is a lot like relgious preference in that there is no way to "proove" you are gay, everyone just has to take your word for it.

Is it correct to just hand out civil rights based on something that is based only on a person's personnal claim? Couldn't anyone claim they were gay? Just as anyone can claim they are Christian or Buddist?

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