Will an Iranian Nuke Create More Stability?

[Yamato]

Because preventing Irans nuke development isn't about whether or not Iran should/shouldn't have that technology - it's about not risking what the current Iranian regimes actions will be, if they do. Look at it simply; would you like it if your enemy was pointing a gun at your head? No you wouldn't. And you would prevent your enemy from getting his hands on that gun in the first place, if you could? That's what is happening.

Hypocricy or not, is for me, beside the point - Irans government have made some dire threats, and those threats are being taken seriously.

I'm not proud of everthing the west does, but in this case, I will stand up for it.

I would rather defend myself from someone pointing a gun at my head than go around pointing guns at other peoples' heads and pulling triggers.

[Charlie Prime]

Israel's government is no doubt evil but no more so than any other human government.

I disagree. In my opinion the government of Israel is more evil than most governments. I measure evil by the amount of human misery, death to little children, and suffering a government creates relative to its size. Israel is bested perhaps only by North Korea in that regard.

I seriously wish to know, which Biblical passages do you use to support the killing and torture of human beings?

[+and-then]

I disagree. In my opinion the government of Israel is more evil than most governments. I measure evil by the amount of human misery, death to little children, and suffering a government creates relative to its size. Israel is bested perhaps only by North Korea in that regard.

I seriously wish to know, which Biblical passages do you use to support the killing and torture of human beings?

I do not support the killing and torture of human beings - or any other animals for that matter. I support the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland that is exclusively their own on land that they historically possessed . Quoting scripture to you in all likelihood would be like throwing clay pigeons to be shot down since I doubt you believe in them. Those "Palestinians" who are killed due to their "resistance" die because they are attempting to murder indiscriminately. I support the State of Israel. I believe they will survive in and possess the land in perpetuity. Those who hate them and instigate and agitate toward removing them from the land are at best misguided and at worst are complicit with evil. If a peace were possible where two rational entities could engage and reach an agreement, say, like Japan and the US after WWII then I'd be all for an agreement there. But anyone who says they believe that the Arabs will ever seek a lasting peace and not just a hudna are either fools or liars. Bang your drum for the poor Arab stepchildren if you wish but know that they will be destroyed by their own hatred - NOT by Israelis.

[buckskin scout]

I disagree with your take on the situation. BUT.... even if you are 100% accurate in your appraisal, where do they go to move forward? They are deadlocked over the issue. There is no love lost between them and both want the land. I believe that history as well as the STATEMENTS of the Arab stepchildren have made it quite clear that Israel can never be allowed to exist as a Jewish State in Palestine. But it sounds as though you either don't care if Israel were evicted en masse OR you actually believe that at some point enough land could be given to appease/satisfy the "Palestinians" so that a peace could exist between them. I don't know you so I'll not try to decide which but those seem to be the only options to be drawn from your stance.

I believe a third world war will erupt, emanating from this region, because the world simply cannot allow a Jewish State to exist, even on a tiny sliver of land. When it grinds to a halt, as all wars do, I wonder if the motivation will have been worth the devastation.

No, what you are failing to see is that Israel has yet to fulfill or obey any of the UN resolutions, they have never fulfilled any of their obligations.

The Palestinians were given the Mahon Agreement (1915) before the Jews received the Balfour Declaration (1917). The former promised the Palestinians that they would enjoy self-determination and an autonomous government.

But the Balfour Declaration changed that as it directly conflicted with Mahon Agreement (which provided Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq their self-determination and autonomous government).

The Mahon Agreement was achieved because the Arabs were allies with the British against the Turks and the Ottoman Empire in WWI. It was a binding agreement. Yet, because of the Balfour Declaration, Britain failed to grant the Palestinians the fulfilment of that agreement INSTEAD Britian became temporary admistrators of Palestine through the League of Nation declaring Britain Mandate over Palestine from 1920 to 1948 while Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt all enjoyed their own self-determining governments already.

MEANWHILE, Palestine has hundreds of thousands of European Jews immigrating into Palestine increasing exponentially.

Then WWII breaks out, with Nazi Germany, causes an even greater influx of European Jews taking flight into Palestine.

After the Balfour Declaration raises tensions between the Jews and Palestinians. Mostly through Jewish agression.

Post-WWII, and the Jews gain even stronger support from America. British declare they are going to withdraw and turns the responsibility over to the UN who on November 29 1947 draw up the Partition Plan For Palestine Resolution 181. The Jews accept it, the Palestinians reject it. Civil war breaks out, which really amounts to Jewish terrorist groups committing atrocities against the Palestinians in aggressive land grabs of Palestinian land promised to the Palestinian through the Resolution 181.

The Jews who have WWII veterans with combat experience with better training and better weapons literally engage in massive forced expulsions of Palestinians from lands that were promised their's under the Resolution 181. These Jewish terrorist groups attack and kill both the British and Palestinians citizens. 700,000+ Palestinians become homeless refugees and the Jews destroyed (or rather razed 400 Palestinians villages to the ground) and ruled that those 700,000+ refugees can not return to Palestine by fact that 1) they no longer have homes in Palestine 2) the Jews will use military force against them.

The newly formed Arab nations with their mostly surplus weapons most of which is unservicable raise their hands to their heads completely aghast thus the 1948 Arab-Israeli War begins.

Palestine never materialized, as promised both through the Mahon Agreement 1915 nor through partitioned Jew/Palestinian nations under UN Resolution 181. In fact, in the 1967 war, Jews grabbed even more Palestinian land which the UN has deemed an illegal occupation under UN Resolution 242.

And Israel has never ceased grabbing more land nor ended their illegal occupations since.

Palestine never became a nation of self-determination and autonomy.

This is the very soul of the Mid-East conflict. The Arabs and Palestinians are telling the Jews to go to hell, the Jews are telling the Arabs and Palestinians go to hell.

[buckskin scout]

I do not support the killing and torture of human beings - or any other animals for that matter. I support the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland that is exclusively their own on land that they historically possessed . Quoting scripture to you in all likelihood would be like throwing clay pigeons to be shot down since I doubt you believe in them. Those "Palestinians" who are killed due to their "resistance" die because they are attempting to murder indiscriminately. I support the State of Israel. I believe they will survive in and possess the land in perpetuity. Those who hate them and instigate and agitate toward removing them from the land are at best misguided and at worst are complicit with evil. If a peace were possible where two rational entities could engage and reach an agreement, say, like Japan and the US after WWII then I'd be all for an agreement there. But anyone who says they believe that the Arabs will ever seek a lasting peace and not just a hudna are either fools or liars. Bang your drum for the poor Arab stepchildren if you wish but know that they will be destroyed by their own hatred - NOT by Israelis.

Yeah, well Israel has been an illegal occupation since 1948. And doesnt obey UN resolutions and constantly violates international humanitarian laws.

Because of Israel, the Nation of Palestine never materialized as was guaranteed.

Beware being in agreement with workers of darkness, wickedness, lies, and falsity.

[Yamato]

Zionists manufacture their own peril, bastardizing Judaism into a sliver of land they have a bizarre infatuation with controlling demographically.

Bottom line is the Zionists started it. And their supporters would gladly overlook that fact to focus on the Zionists ending it also. The problem isn't "the Jews". It's a twisted gang of nationalistic thugs who have brainwashed Jews into thinking that their very identity equals Israel.

[+and-then]

Yeah, well Israel has been an illegal occupation since 1948. And doesnt obey UN resolutions and constantly violates international humanitarian laws.

Because of Israel, the Nation of Palestine never materialized as was guaranteed.

Beware being in agreement with workers of darkness, wickedness, lies, and falsity.

This is simply false. The State of Palestine never materialized because the Arabs NEVER, EVER were going to accept a Jewish State. They kept the "Palestinians" from going home initially so they could cause the State of Israel to be still born. When that failed they began using them as pawns in a PR war that has continued to this day. I read the information that you, Yamato, Acidhead and BRLD - among others - post here in defense of the anti Israel lobby. There is much of it that I even agree with. But the problems, no matter who is to blame for their beginning, cannot end if both sides won't talk. Currently it is Abbas, Hamas and the Arabs in general who feel they have played the PR game to a denouement and are close to succeeding in their quest to eradicate Israel. There is about to be a great war over that place and those who have and continue to push Israel for more and more concessions will be to blame. Israel WILL defeat her neighbors again. The dream of the anti Israel crowd is illogical almost to the point of being delusional. How many more wars will it take before people get a clue that Israel isn't just going to disappear some fine day? It's like kids on a playground screaming and pointing out that something isn't "fair".

[Charlie Prime]

I do not support the killing and torture of human beings

That is simply not true. When you support a government torture and killing of people, you support torturing and killing people. You can twist scripture like a Sanhedrin lawyer to create justifications for evil all you want, but the simple, honest, real world result is that you are a war maker, no different from a Muslim who supports killing in the name of God.

I encourage you to avoid rebuke by looking deeply into your heart.

[Yamato]

This is simply false. The State of Palestine never materialized because the Arabs NEVER, EVER were going to accept a Jewish State. They kept the "Palestinians" from going home initially so they could cause the State of Israel to be still born. When that failed they began using them as pawns in a PR war that has continued to this day. I read the information that you, Yamato, Acidhead and BRLD - among others - post here in defense of the anti Israel lobby. There is much of it that I even agree with. But the problems, no matter who is to blame for their beginning, cannot end if both sides won't talk. Currently it is Abbas, Hamas and the Arabs in general who feel they have played the PR game to a denouement and are close to succeeding in their quest to eradicate Israel. There is about to be a great war over that place and those who have and continue to push Israel for more and more concessions will be to blame. Israel WILL defeat her neighbors again. The dream of the anti Israel crowd is illogical almost to the point of being delusional. How many more wars will it take before people get a clue that Israel isn't just going to disappear some fine day? It's like kids on a playground screaming and pointing out that something isn't "fair".

Evil is as evil does, and evil is weak because it turns on itself eventually. I expect that to happen to Israel eventually if this mad Zionist game of duping Americans like you to their cause continues much longer.

dside doesn't speak for me. Don't make the mistake of grouping us.

The "anti-Israel lobby"? I'm flattered.

If someone took your shaleighleigh and drove you out of your home with it, would you ever accept it? Would it even matter? Is that all it takes to make the world work where you're from? Compliance and cowardice to tyranny and force?

Israel's regime is in trouble right now. I listened to Meir Dagan speak at length about Israel's survival and according to him, the vast majority of the Israel government's initiatives never see the light of day. Even he's not buying the Zionist soap that "Iran must be attacked before it's too late".

[+and-then]

Evil is as evil does, and evil is weak because it turns on itself eventually. I expect that to happen to Israel eventually if this mad Zionist game of duping Americans like you to their cause continues much longer.

dside doesn't speak for me. Don't make the mistake of grouping us.

The "anti-Israel lobby"? I'm flattered.

If someone took your shaleighleigh and drove you out of your home with it, would you ever accept it? Would it even matter? Is that all it takes to make the world work where you're from? Compliance and cowardice to tyranny and force?

Israel's regime is in trouble right now. I listened to Meir Dagan speak at length about Israel's survival and according to him, the vast majority of the Israel government's initiatives never see the light of day. Even he's not buying the Zionist soap that "Iran must be attacked before it's too late".

I'd fight back with all that I had if someone drove me from my home. I might sacrifice my own life for such a cause but never would I teach my children to hate and make a life's ambition of returning no matter the cost. These people are not the only human beings who ever have been forcibly displaced but they CERTAINLY have become the most notable example of it and I believe it's because it was Jews who were given their land. No one mentions the thousands of Jews who were similarly displaced due to the war and then the creation of the State of Israel. It's rank hypocrisy to ignore this yet scream of the injustice done to the Arabs of Palestine. If you truly believe that Israel will some day be displaced and you think this will be a victory for justice then you are misguided imo. When I speak of Israel winning wars and taking more Arab lands I'm aware that it sounds like a hater gloating over the "misfortune" of others and nothing could be farther from the truth. I simply state what I believe is foretold in scripture. I don't understand why things will happen this way but I earnestly believe they will. If it makes you feel any better the Jews are supposed to lose 2/3 rds of their people in these conflicts as well. More than enough blood to go around for all who hate.

[Yamato]

I'd fight back with all that I had if someone drove me from my home. I might sacrifice my own life for such a cause but never would I teach my children to hate and make a life's ambition of returning no matter the cost. These people are not the only human beings who ever have been forcibly displaced but they CERTAINLY have become the most notable example of it and I believe it's because it was Jews who were given their land. No one mentions the thousands of Jews who were similarly displaced due to the war and then the creation of the State of Israel. It's rank hypocrisy to ignore this yet scream of the injustice done to the Arabs of Palestine. If you truly believe that Israel will some day be displaced and you think this will be a victory for justice then you are misguided imo. When I speak of Israel winning wars and taking more Arab lands I'm aware that it sounds like a hater gloating over the "misfortune" of others and nothing could be farther from the truth. I simply state what I believe is foretold in scripture. I don't understand why things will happen this way but I earnestly believe they will. If it makes you feel any better the Jews are supposed to lose 2/3 rds of their people in these conflicts as well. More than enough blood to go around for all who hate.

2/3 of six million is four million. Based on your prophecy and my rough numbers, I think they'vee overpopulated Israel by at least five million. Granting you your prophecy, as an anti-Zionist I'm effectively trying to save the lives of over five million Jews that you're trying to get killed. You might think my lifesaving philosophy is hypocritical because I'm also screaming about the Palestinian injustice and trying to save their lives?

It's a loaded pretense to care about Zionist Jews living in Israel because Jews of all kinds are already welcome here. They can live right next door to me, and do; they can spin the Dreidel, light the Menorah, and sing their religion and culture loud and proud. What they can't do is oppress other people on my dime, endanger my country on my dime, and act like they have a divine right to be the world's greatest welfare case on my dime. I have no problem with you giving to Israel voluntarily. There's probably a banner ad somewhere on this page asking for at least that much. Yes, there it is.

I honestly and optimistically believe that Israel will bloodlessly transform from within and for the better. All countries do, in time. But first the Zionist ideology must vanish from the pages of time. Ahmadinejad's assessment is quite positive in that regard and I hope he turns out right.

But if you really believed in your own prophecy you'd be running around screaming with your hair on fire trying to get those Zionist Jews out of Israel immediately. If you want (need?) your prophecy to be carried out, you want Israelis to die by extension. That is madness.

[+and-then]

2/3 of six million is four million. Based on your prophecy and my rough numbers, I think they'vee overpopulated Israel by at least five million. Granting you your prophecy, as an anti-Zionist I'm effectively trying to save the lives of over five million Jews that you're trying to get killed. You might think my lifesaving philosophy is hypocritical because I'm also screaming about the Palestinian injustice and trying to save their lives?

It's a loaded pretense to care about Zionist Jews living in Israel because Jews of all kinds are already welcome here. They can live right next door to me, and do; they can spin the Dreidel, light the Menorah, and sing their religion and culture loud and proud. What they can't do is oppress other people on my dime, endanger my country on my dime, and act like they have a divine right to be the world's greatest welfare case on my dime. I have no problem with you giving to Israel voluntarily. There's probably a banner ad somewhere on this page asking for at least that much. Yes, there it is.

I honestly and optimistically believe that Israel will bloodlessly transform from within and for the better. All countries do, in time. But first the Zionist ideology must vanish from the pages of time. Ahmadinejad's assessment is quite positive in that regard and I hope he turns out right.

But if you really believed in your own prophecy you'd be running around screaming with your hair on fire trying to get those Zionist Jews out of Israel immediately. If you want (need?) your prophecy to be carried out, you want Israelis to die by extension. That is madness.

Faith has often been seen as madness or at least simple mindedness down through the ages. You speak of this as though you think a human could have some determinative effect on God's plan. I think we can only create such effects within our own lives. His plan is unalterable. I am not killing or asking to be killed Muslim or Jew in any number. I literally weep for the slaughtered babies in Syria....it SICKENS ME what is happening there. The horror those people are facing, the pain and fear of the wounded. It should be a stark reminder for those of us living in safety that real evil exists in the world and THAT is our enemy, not a different party, flag or skin color.

The Zionists started as and mostly remain true to the ideals of planting and prospering a home for Jews on land historically theirs. Like any other human endeavor it has become corrupted over time but it's original intent was and is a noble one.

[buckskin scout]

This is simply false. The State of Palestine never materialized because the Arabs NEVER, EVER were going to accept a Jewish State. They kept the "Palestinians" from going home initially so they could cause the State of Israel to be still born. When that failed they began using them as pawns in a PR war that has continued to this day. I read the information that you, Yamato, Acidhead and BRLD - among others - post here in defense of the anti Israel lobby. There is much of it that I even agree with. But the problems, no matter who is to blame for their beginning, cannot end if both sides won't talk. Currently it is Abbas, Hamas and the Arabs in general who feel they have played the PR game to a denouement and are close to succeeding in their quest to eradicate Israel. There is about to be a great war over that place and those who have and continue to push Israel for more and more concessions will be to blame. Israel WILL defeat her neighbors again. The dream of the anti Israel crowd is illogical almost to the point of being delusional. How many more wars will it take before people get a clue that Israel isn't just going to disappear some fine day? It's like kids on a playground screaming and pointing out that something isn't "fair".

The Israelis were grabbing land before Israel became a State. Look, what we are telling in our eyes and no doubt in God's eyes, since when do two wrongs ever gain a right? Palestinians never persecuted the Jews but lived peacably with side by side with the indigeneous minority of Palestinian Jews.

You keep throwing the Jews' history in our faces, well, buddy, since when were the Palestinians ever responsible for any of that? Palestinians are literally scapegoats. Why should they be expulsed and dispossessed in order that Jews can find a home? Palestinians never cooperated with the idea but it was forced down upon by Jewish immigrants? Two-thirds of which werent naturalized citizens of Palestine. So actually the majority of those immigrants didnt have any legal right to that land as they werent naturalized citizens.

[Yamato]

Faith has often been seen as madness or at least simple mindedness down through the ages. You speak of this as though you think a human could have some determinative effect on God's plan. I think we can only create such effects within our own lives. His plan is unalterable. I am not killing or asking to be killed Muslim or Jew in any number. I literally weep for the slaughtered babies in Syria....it SICKENS ME what is happening there. The horror those people are facing, the pain and fear of the wounded. It should be a stark reminder for those of us living in safety that real evil exists in the world and THAT is our enemy, not a different party, flag or skin color.

The Zionists started as and mostly remain true to the ideals of planting and prospering a home for Jews on land historically theirs. Like any other human endeavor it has become corrupted over time but it's original intent was and is a noble one.

That land is not "historically theirs" good sir. That's as asinine as me saying the land is historically mine because I'm a Christian and I believe that the Kingdom of Jerusalem should be reestablished in fulfillment of some barbaric quasi-racist hyper-nationalistic prophecy that I cook up. That's bad enough as it is, but then propping it up with collective punishment on innocent populations of civilians? I'd have completely lost the plot and that's how you look to me.

Granting you your prophecy, even if I can't affect God's plan I can certainly affect God's body count. And so can you, but instead of joining the anti-Zionists and saving lives, you're going the Zionist way of maximum genocide.

[+and-then]

That land is not "historically theirs" good sir. That's as asinine as me saying the land is historically mine because I'm a Christian and I believe that the Kingdom of Jerusalem should be reestablished in fulfillment of some barbaric quasi-racist hyper-nationalistic prophecy that I cook up. That's bad enough as it is, but then propping it up with collective punishment on innocent populations of civilians? I'd have completely lost the plot and that's how you look to me.

Granting you your prophecy, even if I can't affect God's plan I can certainly affect God's body count. And so can you, but instead of joining the anti-Zionists and saving lives, you're going the Zionist way of maximum genocide.

Genocide? The Israelis kill aggressors who are trying to kill them. They build fences against them for the same reason. Exactly which race or people group are the Israelis trying to exterminate? As to the land being their's "historically" I mean that they had an archaeologically provable presence in the land for the past 2500 years or so...it's indisputable. It was once their homeland and Jerusalem was their capitol. As to the "Palestinian" claim to the land, where are the artifacts, the ruins, the historical texts which prove that such a people ever existed at all...let alone in the land Israel currently inhabits? Arabs, yes, certainly...but "Palestinians" as a separate entity? The Muslims of this area talk of how sacred Al Quds is yet it is never mentioned in the holy Qur'an even once. It's in the old and new testament hundreds of times as the home and capitol of the Jews. I get that you don't accept the prophecies..no harm, no foul, but the biblical vs Quranic evidence and the archaeological record should surely count for something to a rational mind. God's "body count" is His business. As long as I don't try taking a life on His behalf my conscience is clear from what is coming. Hell, I can't even convince you that I don't hate Muslims, how on earth could I convince God to change His plan in the slightest degree?

[ninjadude]

It's in the old and new testament hundreds of times as the home and capitol of the Jews.

Not really a valid historical document.

[Charlie Prime]

I expect that to happen to Israel eventually if this mad Zionist game of duping Americans like you to their cause continues much longer.

The really sick thing about Christian Zionsts is that they actually desire maximum horror for Jews in Israel. In their evil, twisted theology, the more death and suffering that happens to Israel, the sooner The Messaih will return to send all the unconverted Jews to eternal torment in hell.

They make Muslims beheading reporters look like amateurs.

[+and-then]

Not really a valid historical document.

But accepted as such by many millions other than yourself. So it gets down to opinions and their's is as valid as yours.

[+and-then]

The really sick thing about Christian Zionsts is that they actually desire maximum horror for Jews in Israel. In their evil, twisted theology, the more death and suffering that happens to Israel, the sooner The Messaih will return to send all the unconverted Jews to eternal torment in hell.

They make Muslims beheading reporters look like amateurs.

Where in the world do you come up with such tripe? If I comment on the weather, that there is a hurricane coming for example, am I then responsible for all the destruction it causes? If I mention that I believe in Holy scripture I become responsible for every event that flows from it? You don't know me and have no valid right or reason to impugn my character over what I believe. People like you who seem to know little of true biblical theology or eschatology make broad statements about what Christians believe and you have no factual basis for it. Christ will return in His own good time and there isn't a single thing ANYONE can do to influence that timing. And anyone who actually desires "maximum horror" for any other person or people group will find themselves in a very bad place when they have to face Him on His return. For you I think the whole conversation is about politics and your perception of right and wrong. My guess is that as long as "Zionists" - read - Jews - get what's coming to them you really don't care what the result is for Muslims, Christians or anyone else.

[Charlie Prime]

Where in the world do you come up with such tripe?

I was referring to Christian Zionists. You act like I was referring to you.

Are you a Christian Zionist?

Do you believe that Jews who do not accept Jesus as their personal savior will spend eternity in hell ?

[Yamato]

I was referring to Christian Zionists. You act like I was referring to you.

Are you a Christian Zionist?

Do you believe that Jews who do not accept Jesus as their personal savior will spend eternity in hell ?

Aye. He is and he does.

[+and-then]

I was referring to Christian Zionists. You act like I was referring to you.

Are you a Christian Zionist?

Do you believe that Jews who do not accept Jesus as their personal savior will spend eternity in hell ?

I am a Christian Zionist and I believe that all who deny that Jesus Christ is the Son are lost for eternity. I say it with no joy nor do I even truly understand why such needs to be the case but I am not allowed to pick and choose which parts of scripture to believe or not believe. What I stated previously explains why I feel as I do about the middle east and Israel in particular. This topic isn't "and then's religious beliefs" it's about an Iranian bomb and stability in the region.

And btw - I stated that I was a Christian Zionist quite openly when I first came to these boards. - As Yamato's words attest.

Edited June 28, 2012 by and then

[skookum]

Reading this thread I find really scary.

Nukes cause stability? I grew up during the cold war watching documentaries on what the world would be like like if nuclear war broke out. I was terrified and continue to be every time I hear of any nation building more nukes.

Do they stop war? I think we only need to look at the Iraq wars to see they were no deterrent.

[+and-then]

Reading this thread I find really scary.

Nukes cause stability? I grew up during the cold war watching documentaries on what the world would be like like if nuclear war broke out. I was terrified and continue to be every time I hear of any nation building more nukes.

Do they stop war? I think we only need to look at the Iraq wars to see they were no deterrent.

I grew up at a similar time. I think that before religious extremism was introduced into the equation that nukes were stabilizing because rational people realized that mass death cannot be allowed. They FORCED us to find other ways to work out problems. Yes, Iraq and Afghanistan are awful but they are contained and are slowly ramping down as hot spots. If Israel for example were attacked by Assad using chem or bio scuds and caused a mass casualty - thousands dead - event then we might see the first use of a nuke since WWII. I doubt the entire world would start launching but the threshold would have been crossed and from that point it's probably only a matter of time. I think that if Iran decides to assemble a weapon the calculus for their use may change in the minds of Israelis. They will be faced with accepting incursions, terror and general blackmail as a result of such a nuclear umbrella for Iran's proxies in the region OR they will decide to attack anyway and force Iran's hand. It will be a constant nightmare for the world. But the world would rather act like an Ostrich until it is faced with the reality - by then it's just too late.

[ninjadude]

So it gets down to opinions and their's is as valid as yours.

No it's not. Science (in this case archeology) is based on facts not beliefs.