How many fruitless years will it take?

[keninsc]

Xetan? You put too much importance on what other say that's in conflict with your own beliefs, not everyone is going to agree and by the same token, not everyone is going to disagree. I think they do it simply to see what buttons they can push to get a reaction out of you.

[Guest Xetan]

- 10 on your reading comprehension.....I did start the topic, and ask the original question, so whom should I think you were talking to?

No quotes from you, I would think you are answering the OP ( me )...

Well, that's wrong. This is a discussion remember? I think you kept saying that? This isn't a "Pop into the thread and start saying things directly to Sakari" seminar. This is a discussion, and all contributions to the discussion are to the discussion, not the originator of the discussion.

Xetan? You put too much importance on what other say that's in conflict with your own beliefs, not everyone is going to agree and by the same token, not everyone is going to disagree. I think they do it simply to see what buttons they can push to get a reaction out of you.

I put more importance on how people say things than what it is they said. This forum has become a rabid cesspool of supposed critics with nothing better to do with their time but aggressively fight against the opinions and beliefs of others in demeaning manners. Public lynchings are not "discussion." (That one was to you, Sakari, in case you couldn't pick that up )

To make one thing clear: I don't care if bigfoot is real or not. I don't have any evidence that the American bigfoot is real, and the areas are pretty highly populated. Seems unlikely. I'll fight for someone else's right to believe that he's there, though.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Xetan

[keninsc]

Well, that's wrong. This is a discussion remember? I think you kept saying that? This isn't a "Pop into the thread and start saying things directly to Sakari" seminar. This is a discussion, and all contributions to the discussion are to the discussion, not the originator of the discussion.

I put more importance on how people say things than what it is they said. This forum has become a rabid cesspool of supposed critics with nothing better to do with their time but aggressively fight against the opinions and beliefs of others in demeaning manners. Public lynchings are not "discussion." (That one was to you, Sakari, in case you couldn't pick that up )

To make one thing clear: I don't care if bigfoot is real or not. I don't have any evidence that the American bigfoot is real, and the areas are pretty highly populated. Seems unlikely. I'll fight for someone else's right to believe that he's there, though.

Sakari does enjoy bashing on newbies, but every board with any sort of following is going to have some like that, granted, it's your time to waste with all the sock-puppetry but I'm not that into it myself.

I don't know exactly what you mean by that second statement............why would you allow someone to continue to believe something you know isn't true without at least trying to get them to listen to reason? Personally, if I have something wrong I'd really like if someone would point it out and show me my problem, but that's me.

[Guest Xetan]

I don't know exactly what you mean by that second statement............why would you allow someone to continue to believe something you know isn't true without at least trying to get them to listen to reason? Personally, if I have something wrong I'd really like if someone would point it out and show me my problem, but that's me.

Because it isn't hurting me that they believe in something else.

[orangepeaceful79]

Because it isn't hurting me that they believe in something else.

Xetan there is a thread here in one of these forums that deal with people, their beliefs, and why they advocate for them here on the threads. It might be a good read for you, and it might not. I don't come here to argue because I enjoy arguing with people - I actually have a disdain for conflict. However as keninsc has pointed out, there are among us those who feel that squashing disinformation in the pursuit of actual knowledge is a worthwhile endeavor as understanding truth benefits us all.

I agree with you, Xetan, to a point. I think that beliefs should be individually held and protected. Beliefs and opinions are something we each have a right to, however facts are absolute. Truth is something that should be understood and universal and made so whenever possible. We find and substantiate truth with evidence. As a skeptical person, it is evidence for true phenomenon that I seek. And in the world of the paranormal there are many things kicked around as evidence which are not.

Am I perfect in my pursuit of what is true? Never. Sometimes I get sarcastic or abrasive in these discussions and I generally try to pull back on that when its brought to my attention.

I think that we all need to be careful with language so that we are debating the facts, instead of making it seem as though we are attacking the beliefs of others. And on the flip side of that, if you are someone who is having your facts debated, take care to realize that nobody is attacking your beliefs, that in fact it is your information that is under scrutiny. I don't mean that we kowtow to politically correct language and other such nonsense and fall all over ourselves to never offend - I just mean that we need to be clear what we are debating and refrain from making things personal and taking things personally.

[Guest Xetan]

Xetan there is a thread here in one of these forums that deal with people, their beliefs, and why they advocate for them here on the threads. It might be a good read for you, and it might not.

I will hunt out this thread later today. Thanks for letting me know it exists, as it does sound like I'd enjoy reading it.

[orangepeaceful79]

I will hunt out this thread later today. Thanks for letting me know it exists, as it does sound like I'd enjoy reading it.

I can't find the one I was thinking of. Pretty sure I didn't imagine it though. Maybe you'll have better luck.

[Sakari]

Well, that's wrong. This is a discussion remember? I think you kept saying that? This isn't a "Pop into the thread and start saying things directly to Sakari" seminar. This is a discussion, and all contributions to the discussion are to the discussion, not the originator of the discussion.

I put more importance on how people say things than what it is they said. This forum has become a rabid cesspool of supposed critics with nothing better to do with their time but aggressively fight against the opinions and beliefs of others in demeaning manners. Public lynchings are not "discussion." (That one was to you, Sakari, in case you couldn't pick that up )

To make one thing clear: I don't care if bigfoot is real or not. I don't have any evidence that the American bigfoot is real, and the areas are pretty highly populated. Seems unlikely. I'll fight for someone else's right to believe that he's there, though.

As I said, show me where I bash or lynch people......What I did is fell into the trap of answering a smart ass reply.....I should know better.

Sakari does enjoy bashing on newbies, but every board with any sort of following is going to have some like that, granted, it's your time to waste with all the sock-puppetry but I'm not that into it myself.

I don't know exactly what you mean by that second statement............why would you allow someone to continue to believe something you know isn't true without at least trying to get them to listen to reason? Personally, if I have something wrong I'd really like if someone would point it out and show me my problem, but that's me.

keninsc, come on man, really? .......Same to you, send me some quotes where I just " bash on newbies "....That was a bull**** statement, and un called for.

Anyway, back on topic, as I am done stooping down a few levels.

[Stardrive]

Perhaps the real message here is that we should leave the belief in Bigfoot alone.

Whatever works for you works for me....

[Guest Xetan]

Anyway, back on topic, as I am done stooping down a few levels.

This kind of IS the topic. Everything I'm saying is completely relevant to the topic. Everything I'm saying has to do with the belief in Bigfoot.

No, I'm not discussing the side of it you want me to. The side where everyone who believes in Bigfoot is an uncultured nitwit (if you want your personal example, this whole topic is it, from your first post through your last.) Then again, if I agreed with everything you said, what kind of conversation would there be?

I'm so glad you've decided to stop stooping down. I was afraid you were genuinely that short :3

[keninsc]

Because it isn't hurting me that they believe in something else.

True, however if you allow misinformation to be considered as fact then what you've done is allowed ignorance to rule under the guise of "allowing someone to believe what they want." That is not to say that I'm encouraging you to take up the Sakari method of bashing people in influence them and their beliefs. I have Sakari on my ignore just so I don't have to read his drivel, but that's me. I find I can focus more on subject matter when not having to deal with some extraneous demand by someone just being a prick.

Anyway, I have a favorite saying I use a lot in here, ".....having an open mind is good so long as your mind isn't so open that your brain falls out on the floor.....". I don't care what people believe really, I do have a problem with people trying to pass off BS as fact or proof of something that it isn't. Know what I mean? Now, if you ever want an honest opinion, assessment, evaluation, which devoid of all the bashing, b**** slapping and high school posturing, then please feel free to ask. I will not promise to agree with you but I will be honest and polite, but I have to qualify that politeness part, I'm as polite as the person I'm talking with is usually.

Later.

[Guest Xetan]

Oh, I have no problem with discussing or debating the factual or realistic merits of an individual's beliefs (or whichever situation/discussion is at hand). It's merely the ridiculous amount of "You believe that? You stupid tool!" that I'm not fond of.

As far as allowing another person to be ignorant goes. Well, that's not really my problem. They can go on being ignorant all they want, as long as they're happy and respecting my right not to be (ignorant).

[Sakari]

This kind of IS the topic. Everything I'm saying is completely relevant to the topic. Everything I'm saying has to do with the belief in Bigfoot.

No, I'm not discussing the side of it you want me to. The side where everyone who believes in Bigfoot is an uncultured nitwit (if you want your personal example, this whole topic is it, from your first post through your last.) Then again, if I agreed with everything you said, what kind of conversation would there be?

I'm so glad you've decided to stop stooping down. I was afraid you were genuinely that short :3

Ok, cool deal....Let's start over

Sense of humor, I like that...

True, however if you allow misinformation to be considered as fact then what you've done is allowed ignorance to rule under the guise of "allowing someone to believe what they want." That is not to say that I'm encouraging you to take up the Sakari method of bashing people in influence them and their beliefs. I have Sakari on my ignore just so I don't have to read his drivel, but that's me. I find I can focus more on subject matter when not having to deal with some extraneous demand by someone just being a prick.

Anyway, I have a favorite saying I use a lot in here, ".....having an open mind is good so long as your mind isn't so open that your brain falls out on the floor.....". I don't care what people believe really, I do have a problem with people trying to pass off BS as fact or proof of something that it isn't. Know what I mean? Now, if you ever want an honest opinion, assessment, evaluation, which devoid of all the bashing, b**** slapping and high school posturing, then please feel free to ask. I will not promise to agree with you but I will be honest and polite, but I have to qualify that politeness part, I'm as polite as the person I'm talking with is usually.

Later.

Not falling into that trap....Weird, keninsc 99% of the time replies exactly how I feel, we had one disagreement on a Bigfoot statement ( a law protecting a shooting of Bigfoot....Debate ).Ever since then he has put me on ignore, and that is fine.What is not fine is he keeps using my name and making false statements.I hope you can use your own judgement, and not go by his poor use of the ignore feature.....I can assure you I do not bash on people, unless bashed on.And even then, most of the time I refrain from replying.......

Anyway, no biggie there, just wanted to point that out.

Oh, I have no problem with discussing or debating the factual or realistic merits of an individual's beliefs (or whichever situation/discussion is at hand). It's merely the ridiculous amount of "You believe that? You stupid tool!" that I'm not fond of.

As far as allowing another person to be ignorant goes. Well, that's not really my problem. They can go on being ignorant all they want, as long as they're happy and respecting my right not to be (ignorant).

Ok, now I can not remember why I replied to you the way I did earlier, and do not want to go back and lose what I typed......

First, welcome to UM.

I just want to clarify something I said before.If someone is saying " this is my belief " I am perfectly fine with that.In the discussion, I will ask what makes them believe that, and show them other explainable things to that....

A example :

" I believe Bigfoot exists because Washington has a Law that Bigfoots can not be shot...Why would a State do that unless something is there? :

Ok, I would point out there is no law anywhere regarding that, and I would go back and post where this rumor started, with supporting proof.I would not be doing this to " bash, ridicule " anyone, I am hopefully helping someone out that is ignorant to a certain thing.

Basically, I am having a discussion, and giving the facts that I know.My wife believes in Psychics, and we sometimes have a colorful conversation about that.

Hell, I have learned a lot here from people doing that to me......When I first joined ( under a different name ) I thought crop circles were made by aliens, and Ghost Hunters had good evidence...This place helped me learn to look at other places for information, and education....

Anyway, enough blabbing, I think I explained that part...

Now, if someone pushes their belief by saying " I know it is real ", then I do want proof from that person, and will ask for it.

I also see a lot of " believers " ( by the way I am not into a believer versus skeptic thing, it is dumb ) who right away get defensive, and go on the attack.

" if you do not believe, why even be on this site "

I have explained that one more then enough......

One thing, I do enjoy discussing things here, and believe it or not, we do educate some people here, and people do learn new things.I have had quite a few thank yous come my way after showing people facts, and so have many other " skeptics ".

I would do the same and thank someone if they showed me something new that I did not know about......." Ignorant ".

We are not jerks, we are not here to fight.And we are not here to say " I AM RIGHT "

Ok, to topic...

The reason I asked how long, it goes for many things really......

But as for Bif, this long with thousands upon thousands of investigators trying to capture that ten minutes of fame, not one piece of evidence found.....Not to mention, the other things mentioned on other threads.

Someone had a good point, same goes for God being real......No evidence, yet many believers.

This is why I say " blind faith ".....Because really, that is what it is.

Anyway, sorry if I offended you earlier, and again, welcome to UM.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Sakari

[Sensible Logic]

1967.....

45 years now since the " Patterson " film came out.I consider this the " big one " that sparked most of the interest in " Bigfoot ".....

45 years is a long time for a lot of people to be looking for a large primate in the USA.

I am just wondering, how many years of no body, no DNA, no fossil's, and only fuzzy blurry videos, and proven hoax's will it take before the percent of people that believe drops below 5%.......

How many years would it take for you not to believe anymore, if you do believe?

75, 100, 150 ?

It has been well more than 45 years now.......

Just curious to those that do believe.

There will never be a period where 100% disbelieve. There will be the next and future generations that will see something on the net or read a book about it and start believing. This site is littered with posts that have disproved various things only to have someone start a new topic months or years later on the very same thing.

[keninsc]

Oh, I have no problem with discussing or debating the factual or realistic merits of an individual's beliefs (or whichever situation/discussion is at hand). It's merely the ridiculous amount of "You believe that? You stupid tool!" that I'm not fond of.

As far as allowing another person to be ignorant goes. Well, that's not really my problem. They can go on being ignorant all they want, as long as they're happy and respecting my right not to be (ignorant).

Ignorance is probably one of the most dangerous things there is......in my opinion. I see it as a personal mission at times to enlighten some people. Good Lord, if you let people read all the crap on the web then they'd be believing in all sorts of nonsense. Granted you can't enlighten the masses, but individuals are another matter.

As far as the bashing goes, I said before that this sort of thing is common on most any site and this one is really no different. The ignore feature works well for me, they can't get under your skin if you never see the stuff they spread, but that's a personal choice. Some day I might reconsider taking them off ignore, but odds are I'll just put them right back on it. Let's be honest, once someone goes down the bashing road they only get worse at it and claim they don't see what you're talking about........but only with their comments. Pretty childish if you ask me but then the world is full of the very childish and the web allows anyone to be a Billy Bad-ass.

Ok, so long as you don't let the problem children here get to you.

[Stardrive]

We find and substantiate truth with evidence. As a skeptical person, it is evidence for true phenomenon that I seek.

And if you're not out there looking for evidence, chances are you'll never find any.

[scowl]

And if you're not out there looking for evidence, chances are you'll never find any.

We actually stumble across most evidence. We've discovered nearly all of the known species by just going into their environment and finding them. We've found areas of fossils completely by accident -- you can't just start digging anywhere.

[orangepeaceful79]

And if you're not out there looking for evidence, chances are you'll never find any.

Quite right. And my hat is off to anyone on either side of this debate who is out there actually looking. I live in the middle of the US, where it seems my chances of finding a squatch would be slim. Although if you believe everything the BFRO website tells you, there have been a handful of bigfoot sightings even here in my home state of Kansas. I'd think a BF would be pretty miserable in a heat index of 109

[keninsc]

Quite right. And my hat is off to anyone on either side of this debate who is out there actually looking. I live in the middle of the US, where it seems my chances of finding a squatch would be slim. Although if you believe everything the BFRO website tells you, there have been a handful of bigfoot sightings even here in my home state of Kansas. I'd think a BF would be pretty miserable in a heat index of 109

Searching the internet doesn't count?

Edited August 1, 2012 by keninsc

[orangepeaceful79]

Searching the internet doesn't count?

My internet went down earlier while i was editing my last post...I'd hit the "post" button prematurely and hadn't finished what I was going to say, but then I couldn't connect to finish it...yadda yadda...here's what I meant to say....

Quite right. And my hat is off to anyone on either side of this debate who is out there actually looking. I live in the middle of the US, where it seems my chances of finding a squatch would be slim. Although if you believe everything the BFRO website tells you, there have been a handful of bigfoot sightings even here in my home state of Kansas. I'd think a BF would be pretty miserable in a heat index of 109, personally.

So for now I have to be content to live vicariously through what others post as evidence, which sadly isn't much to speak of.

I don't think that searching the internet or posting on forums is on par with doing research in the field, however its all I - and many, many others - have got.

Sadly though, many bigfoot "researchers" fall short because they ignore much of the scientific method when doing their investigations. they follow the methodology that makes for good TV but turns up bad evidence. That is IF there is any good evidence out there at all.

Edited August 1, 2012 by orangepeaceful79

[keninsc]

My internet went down earlier while i was editing my last post...I'd hit the "post" button prematurely and hadn't finished what I was going to say, but then I couldn't connect to finish it...yadda yadda...here's what I meant to say....

Quite right. And my hat is off to anyone on either side of this debate who is out there actually looking. I live in the middle of the US, where it seems my chances of finding a squatch would be slim. Although if you believe everything the BFRO website tells you, there have been a handful of bigfoot sightings even here in my home state of Kansas. I'd think a BF would be pretty miserable in a heat index of 109, personally.

So for now I have to be content to live vicariously through what others post as evidence, which sadly isn't much to speak of.

I don't think that searching the internet or posting on forums is on par with doing research in the field, however its all I - and many, many others - have got.

Sadly though, many bigfoot "researchers" fall short because they ignore much of the scientific method when doing their investigations. they follow the methodology that makes for good TV but turns up bad evidence. That is IF there is any good evidence out there at all.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I have to live vicariously through others too. However, one never knows, I might yet win the lottery and be able to devote some time to chasing around after Bigfoots and such for a few more years. I might even be able to get a few guys to help me out. Shoot we might just get a camera crew and............oh wait. It's been done. However, I would have no touchy-feelly problems with being up front about shooting the bugger and hauling it's cold dead ass out for the world to see.

God, I'll probably get death threats and hate mail by the ton. LOL!

[orangepeaceful79]

Yeah, I know the feeling. I have to live vicariously through others too. However, one never knows, I might yet win the lottery and be able to devote some time to chasing around after Bigfoots and such for a few more years. I might even be able to get a few guys to help me out. Shoot we might just get a camera crew and............oh wait. It's been done. However, I would have no touchy-feelly problems with being up front about shooting the bugger and hauling it's cold dead ass out for the world to see.

God, I'll probably get death threats and hate mail by the ton. LOL!

I think that most reasonable people would forgive you for killing one, if it proved all the things that nobody's been able to prove so far. No sane person would relish in the needless death of any animal. And I think that in this situation there is a need which is unique and unprecedented. In my mind though I can only take that internal debate so far, as it just seems unlikely that there will ever be a need for it.

I'd be a happy camper if proven wrong.

[Stardrive]

Quite right. And my hat is off to anyone on either side of this debate who is out there actually looking. I live in the middle of the US, where it seems my chances of finding a squatch would be slim. Although if you believe everything the BFRO website tells you, there have been a handful of bigfoot sightings even here in my home state of Kansas. I'd think a BF would be pretty miserable in a heat index of 109, personally.

Ouch, that is a tad warm, sweatin now just thinking about it If you ever come my way... look me up.

So for now I have to be content to live vicariously through what others post as evidence, which sadly isn't much to speak of.

Most people, that actually have the opportunity to do so (and find something), end up holding thier evidence close. If you want to have some real fun looking for evidence on the internet, start looking at hunting, fishing, hiking etc. forums for threads like "the strangest thing I've seen in the woods". I used to do that all the time and it was pretty cool. Not always about big daddy of course, but always something interesting nonetheless.

I don't think that searching the internet or posting on forums is on par with doing research in the field, however its all I - and many, many others - have got.

Oh, I see. That didn't occur to me. I will say seeing things for yourself has it's advantages. You get to actually come up with theories, then look for the evidence. And if the evidence isn't there, then it's back to drawing board. If the evidence is there, that usually raises more questions, but you go where the evidence leads you.

Sadly though, many bigfoot "researchers" fall short because they ignore much of the scientific method when doing their investigations. they follow the methodology that makes for good TV but turns up bad evidence. That is IF there is any good evidence out there at all.

Sad but true. Not all, but a lot, of reasearchers go to a site and spend a couple of days max checking it out. And thier work usually reflects that scenerio.

[Night Walker]

And if you're not out there looking for evidence, chances are you'll never find any.

Despite my position on the subject, I still go out searching for evidence and have yet to find anything. It is no coincidence that the evidence found by those specifically looking for it consists only of fakes and misidentifications.

And my hat is off to anyone on either side of this debate who is out there actually looking. I live in the middle of the US, where it seems my chances of finding a squatch would be slim. Although if you believe everything the BFRO website tells you, there have been a handful of bigfoot sightings even here in my home state of Kansas. I'd think a BF would be pretty miserable in a heat index of 109

You still have a wonderful opportunity to experience Bigfoot. Try personally following up on some local sightings, go bushwalking at night by yourself, or tag along with the local 'footers out in the field.

Most people, that actually have the opportunity to do so (and find something), end up holding thier evidence close.

Keeping vital evidence away from independent scrutiny is actually not a good thing. It is indicative of a culture of secrecy and dodgy-dealings. After all, why would they release all the "bad" evidence (fakes and misidentifications) into the public domain but hold back on the "good stuff"? Smoke and mirrors...

[Stardrive]

Despite my position on the subject, I still go out searching for evidence and have yet to find anything.

Then you know how much fun it is. It isn't always about finding evidence of big daddy, but about the things you discover and learn along the way. To me it's all about that.... and the adventure !

It is no coincidence that the evidence found by those specifically looking for it consists only of fakes and misidentifications.

I'm of the mind that there are those that think there is money to made in these types of endevours. Don't give up just yet, you have to kiss some frogs before you find a prince.

Keeping vital evidence away from independent scrutiny is actually not a good thing. It is indicative of a culture of secrecy and dodgy-dealings. After all, why would they release all the "bad" evidence (fakes and misidentifications) into the public domain but hold back on the "good stuff"? Smoke and mirrors...

I don't know about vital, but the independent scrutiny you speak of is not necessarily the good thing you portray it to be. It's the very fact most people, that have taken the time to find and then examine the evidence carefully, hesitate to see thier evidence publicly mauled, character brought into question, and so on. Because ALL "evidence", pertaining to this creature, can and will be debunked if publicly displayed. Anything shy of hauling in a carcass is pointless really.

Fakes are generated by people that either A. ignorantly think there's monetary gain, of B. do it for self amusement, which in both cases only muddies the waters. Fakes are always publicly displayed because that is the intent from the very start. Which brings us full circle back to, if you want evidence, it's best to go find it for yourself.