The Scourging That Was Not Asked For

[Ben Masada]

THE SCOURGING THAT WAS NOT ASKED FOR

The Gospels paint the Jews so cruel as to have asked Pilate to crucify Jesus; and Pilate so good as to run out of

arguments to save Jesus from the cross by claiming that he had found no fault in him. (John 18:38)

But then comes the strike that broke the camel's back: The scourging. The text says that "Pilate's next move was

to take Jesus and have him scourged before delivering him to be crucified. (John 19:1)

"Now, wait a minute!" I can almost hear the Jews saying: "We do not recall to have heard any one from our side asking for Jesus to be scourged; that one is upon you." Then, eyeing each other, they would ask in turn: "Did you ask for Jesus to be scourged?" "No, I didn't." Neither did I; so, don't even ask me."

As a matter of fact, if Pilate had found Jesus innocent, and even washed his hands of the blood of Jesus, as we have in Matthew 27:24, why would he add the scourging? If he was so anxious to prevent the mistake of crucifying a just man, why would he add one more act of cruelty that the Jews had not asked for? Forty lashes, minus one, and don't forget to count.

It is only obvious that the whole thing was a big farce. That the slander that the Jews had asked Pilate to crucify Jesus was interpolated as a pious forgery to clear the Romans of the guilt on the crucifixion of Jesus, and to blame the Jews, which became in History, a blatant act of Antisemitism.

If the interpolation was not added later by the Church, but by the gospel writers themselves, it was too careless

a blunder to depict Pilate ordering the scourging of Jesus, when he had tried so hard to exonerate Jesus from the death sentence on the cross.

The bottom line is that, the only way to see the truth here is that the dramatic set up was so stupid that the whole thing is not worthy the paper it was written on.

Ben

[Ever Learning]

he was scourged too put on a show for the jews who were close to rioting, a crucifixion wouldnt suffice. the romans and jews were both guilty. the jews who thought jesus had blasphemed by saying he was on par with god ( proberly the worst thing you could do in jewish theology) they would not say "We do not recall to have heard any one from our side asking for Jesus to be scourged; that one is upon you." Then, eyeing each other, they would ask in turn: "Did you ask for Jesus to be scourged?" "No, I didn't." Neither did I; so, don't even ask me."

they were calling for blood, the worst thing was a crucifixion but it didnt mean they didnt request other punishments.

[Philangeli]

Though Pilate considered Christ to be innocent, he was under pressure from the Jewish leaders to have him crucified. They had already told him it wouldn't go down well with Caesar, if he let free a man who claimed to be a king.

Pilate perhaps thought that by having him scourged, the mob would be appeased.

The scourging occurred before Pilate decided to have him crucified.

But, the mob wasn't appeased and he gave in to their demands, through his own weakness of character.

[Ben Masada]

he was scourged too put on a show for the jews who were close to rioting, a crucifixion wouldnt suffice. the romans and jews were both guilty. the jews who thought jesus had blasphemed by saying he was on par with god ( proberly the worst thing you could do in jewish theology) they would not say "We do not recall to have heard any one from our side asking for Jesus to be scourged; that one is upon you." Then, eyeing each other, they would ask in turn: "Did you ask for Jesus to be scourged?" "No, I didn't." Neither did I; so, don't even ask me." they were calling for blood, the worst thing was a crucifixion but it didnt mean they didnt request other punishments.

Definitely, you are not talking about Jesus, the Jew. A Jewish man, and a learned Jew, as Jesus was, short of being mentally ill, would never claim to be God or son of God. This one must have been the Hellenistic Jesus of Paul. According to Judaism, which was the Faith of Jesus, there is no such a thing as the Greek myth of the demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. Besides, according to Mat. 5:17-19 Jesus was a loyal Jew who came to confirm the Jewish laws down to the letter. How could his fellow Jews ask the enemy of our Land to crucify such a Jew? Something here is hiding behind an antisemitic agenda.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Though Pilate considered Christ to be innocent, he was under pressure from the Jewish leaders to have him crucified. They had already told him it wouldn't go down well with Caesar, if he let free a man who claimed to be a king.

Pilate perhaps thought that by having him scourged, the mob would be appeased.

The scourging occurred before Pilate decided to have him crucified.

But, the mob wasn't appeased and he gave in to their demands, through his own weakness of character.

Have you ever heard about Flavius Josephus, a Jewish Historian of the First Century? The Pilate you describe above, has absolutely nothing to do with Josephus' description of the real Pilate who crucified Jesus for being acclaimed king of the Jews in Jerusalem. Besides, if we are to clear the Romans for their guilt of deicide, the blame goes for those among Jesus' followers who proclaimed him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem of all places. They are still around today, and still proclaiming Jesus king of the Jews. I can see here when I watch TV Evangelism.

Ben

[Philangeli]

Besides, if we are to clear the Romans for their guilt of deicide, the blame goes for those among Jesus' followers who proclaimed him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem of all places. Ben

Which of Jesus' followers proclaimed him King of the Jews? I am only aware of Pilate and those who mocked Jesus of having said that.

Many Jews at that time were expecting a political messiah to break the Roman yoke and set them free, but Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, so they rejected him. Those who followed him were called spiritually and were only interested in God's kingdom, not an earthly, political one.

[Ben Masada]

Which of Jesus' followers proclaimed him King of the Jews? I am only aware of Pilate and those who mocked Jesus of having said that.

Many Jews at that time were expecting a political messiah to break the Roman yoke and set them free, but Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, so they rejected him. Those who followed him were called spiritually and were only interested in God's kingdom, not an earthly, political one.

Take a look at John 18:33,36. Pilate asked Jesus: "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus answered: "My kingdom does not belong to this world." As you can see, Jesus denied Pilate that he was king of the Jews. But if you read Luke 19:38,39, Jesus' disciples themselves were acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem, and the Pharisees said to Jesus: "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." They meant with that request that it would be dangerous to Jesus himself. Jesus answered and said: "If they stop, the stones will cry." Now, I hope you understand that the Jewish authorities had nothing with the crucifixion of Jesus but him alone, for not being able or unwilling to stop his disciples. But the anti-Semites don't care. All they want is to blame the Jews for Jesus' crucifixion. Neither Pilate nor his followers, but the Jews.

Ben

Edited July 12, 2012 by Ben Masada

[Philangeli]

Take a look at John 18:33,36. Pilate asked Jesus: "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus answered: "My kingdom does not belong to this world." As you can see, Jesus denied Pilate that he was king of the Jews. But if you read Luke 19:38,39, Jesus' disciples themselves were acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem, and the Pharisees said to Jesus: "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." Ben

I'm sorry, Ben, but there is no mention of Jesus' disciples acclaiming him king of the Jews in Luke 19.

He was/is a spiritual king for the souls of all mankind.

Luke 19: 17 - 34:

New International Version (NIV)

37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

38 "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"

"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

[Ben Masada]

I'm sorry, Ben, but there is no mention of Jesus' disciples acclaiming him king of the Jews in Luke 19.

He was/is a spiritual king for the souls of all mankind.

Luke 19: 17 - 34:

New International Version (NIV)

37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

38 "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"

"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Well, so you found it. That's how kings in Israel were acclaimed at the entrance of Jerusalem since David. And with the warning by the Pharisees, I understand that they rather tried to help Jesus from being crucified rather than asked for his crucifixion. Does it sound a bell in terms of contradictions in the gospels?

Ben

Edited July 14, 2012 by Ben Masada

[Philangeli]

Well, so you found it. That's how kings in Israel were acclaimed at the entrance of Jerusalem since David. And with the warning by the Pharisees, I understand that they rather tried to help Jesus from being crucified rather than asked for his crucifixion. Does it sound a bell in terms of contradictions in the gospels?

Ben

Some Jews did help him, some didn't.

Some followed him, some didn't.

And, at that point in time, many had not even heard of him.

However, a core group of leading Jews did not accept him and their views held sway.

This was in accordance with scripture.

Christ fulfilled the prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah, e.g.

'The stone the builders rejected has become the corner stone.' (Psalm 118:22).

Edited July 16, 2012 by Philangeli

[Ben Masada]

Some Jews did help him, some didn't.

Some followed him, some didn't.

And, at that point in time, many had not even heard of him.

However, a core group of leading Jews did not accept him and their views held sway.

This was in accordance with scripture.

Christ fulfilled the prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah, e.g.

'The stone the builders rejected has become the corner stone.' (Psalm 118:22).

According to whom, Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah, you or Paul? I ask because Paul confessed to his disciple Timothy that Jesus was the Messiah according to his gospel. Read 2 Tim. 2:8. It means that there was another gospel at the time in whose agenda Jesus was not the Messah. See Galatians 1:6-9 for the "other gospel."

Now, for your quotation of Psalm 118:22 above, I always thought that the text is talking about Israel. I never thought that I would get a booster to my views from a Christian footnote to the text by the Catholic Church, confirming my assertion in the following words: "The stone which the builders rejected is Israel which the empire-builders thought unworthy of a place in their worldly plans." See footnote to this text in the NAB translated from the Original by the Catholic Biblical Association of America.

Ben

Edited July 18, 2012 by Ben Masada

[GoldenWolf]

I don't believe in christianity, but if "jesus" was the messiah (meaning anointed one), then why was he rejected? If he was rejected then that would not make him a "messiah".

[+and-then]

Jesus gave Himself to be the sacrifice. No one forced Him. So the scourging is immaterial. Unless of course, you are questioning or denying that the crucifixion took place.

[Ben Masada]

I don't believe in christianity, but if "jesus" was the messiah (meaning anointed one), then why was he rejected? If he was rejected then that would not make him a "messiah".

Sorry Havoc, but rejection of one's ID does not detract from his being what he is. But the point is that Jesus was not what he was acclaimed to be. Due to numerous disappointments of individual claimings to the office of Messiahship throughout History, the population of learned Jews who believe that the Messiah is collective in Israel, the Jewish People, rather than the individual, is growing throughout Jewry. The logical argument is that the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah does not die. According to Jeremiah 31:35-37, he is supposed to remain before the Lord as a People forever. Then, if you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes out to save His People, His anointed one." That's just one evidence for the collective conception of the Messiah. The Jews, at the time, did not, categorically, rejected Jesus but Paul for the havoc he caused in Jerusalem by preaching around that Jesus had been the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. Then, future Jews, learned to reject Jesus based on the spreading of those false news by Christianity.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Jesus gave Himself to be the sacrifice. No one forced Him. So the scourging is immaterial. Unless of course, you are questioning or denying that the crucifixion took place.

No, the crucifixion per se took place alright; not only his but of thousands of other Jews during the First Century. But I find hard to believe he gave himself willingly to be sacrificed when I consider his prayers in the Gethsemane where, for three times, using almost the same words, he asked to remove that cup from his having to drink it. When he realized that he was wasting his time and the hour was approaching, he probably lost patience and said, "Be Thy will done AND NOT MINE. As anyone, with the minimum of commonsense can see, It was not Jesus' will to walk the via dolorosa. IOW, the poor man was forced to die on the cross against his own will. Last but not least, comes the verdict of Pilate for the reason why Jesus had to be crucified: The political charge to have been acclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, which was Israel at the time: INRI.

Ben

[GoldenWolf]

Sorry Havoc, but rejection of one's ID does not detract from his being what he is. But the point is that Jesus was not what he was acclaimed to be. Due to numerous disappointments of individual claimings to the office of Messiahship throughout History, the population of learned Jews who believe that the Messiah is collective in Israel, the Jewish People, rather than the individual, is growing throughout Jewry. The logical argument is that the individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah does not die. According to Jeremiah 31:35-37, he is supposed to remain before the Lord as a People forever. Then, if you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes out to save His People, His anointed one." That's just one evidence for the collective conception of the Messiah. The Jews, at the time, did not, categorically, rejected Jesus but Paul for the havoc he caused in Jerusalem by preaching around that Jesus had been the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. Then, future Jews, learned to reject Jesus based on the spreading of those false news by Christianity.

Ben

Wow, unbelievable.

[Ben Masada]

Wow, unbelievable.

Unbelievable because you find religious themes unbelievable or because you are taken aback that things could indeed be the way a describe above?

Ben

[Philangeli]

Unbelievable because you find religious themes unbelievable or because you are taken aback that things could indeed be the way a describe above?

Ben

Hi Ben. I was thinking the same thing, though I was more inclined to the notion that he was amazed and agreeing with what you had said.

[Philangeli]

According to whom, Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah, you or Paul? I ask because Paul confessed to his disciple Timothy that Jesus was the Messiah according to his gospel. Read 2 Tim. 2:8. It means that there was another gospel at the time in whose agenda Jesus was not the Messah. See Galatians 1:6-9 for the "other gospel."

Now, for your quotation of Psalm 118:22 above, I always thought that the text is talking about Israel. I never thought that I would get a booster to my views from a Christian footnote to the text by the Catholic Church, confirming my assertion in the following words: "The stone which the builders rejected is Israel which the empire-builders thought unworthy of a place in their worldly plans." See footnote to this text in the NAB translated from the Original by the Catholic Biblical Association of America.

Ben

Ben, this argument has been going on for 2,000 years - was Jesus the Messiah? Christians say yes, Jews say no, muslims say he was just a prophet.

We are not going to resolve it here.

We are all on a spiritual path. We are all attracted to those aspects which give us some challenge - spiritually and intellectually. We thrash these things out every day of our lives. It's a great journey!

For me, Christ is a spiritual Messiah. For you, he's not. So be it.

Still, the spiritual catharsis cannot be apprehended intellectually nor proved scientifically. It just happens.

Best wishes.

Philangeli

[Ben Masada]

Hi Ben. I was thinking the same thing, though I was more inclined to the notion that he was amazed and agreeing with what you had said.

That's encouraging to be aware that some people are getting the handling of reasonable interpretation.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Ben, this argument has been going on for 2,000 years - was Jesus the Messiah? Christians say yes, Jews say no, muslims say he was just a prophet.

We are not going to resolve it here.

We are all on a spiritual path. We are all attracted to those aspects which give us some challenge - spiritually and intellectually. We thrash these things out every day of our lives. It's a great journey!

For me, Christ is a spiritual Messiah. For you, he's not. So be it.

Still, the spiritual catharsis cannot be apprehended intellectually nor proved scientifically. It just happens.

Best wishes.

Philangeli

You say above: "For me, Christ is a spiritual Messiah. For you, he is not. So be it." Not that simple, my friend. As you well know, I am sure, Jesus was a Jewish person, whose Faith was Judaism. To claim that he was a Messiah or the Messiah, one is infringing on the Jewish religion, and that's plagiarism of a religion from another. It is only natural that a Jew, somewhere, who cares for Judaism, should choose to stand for the integrity of the Faith. Not with hostility of course, but as an invitation to interfaith dialogue.

Ben

Edited July 25, 2012 by Ben Masada

[Philangeli]

That's encouraging to be aware that some people are getting the handling of reasonable interpretation.

Ben

At least, you won't be feeling so alone now.

[Philangeli]

You say above: "For me, Christ is a spiritual Messiah. For you, he is not. So be it." Not that simple, my friend. As you well know, I am sure, Jesus was a Jewish person, whose Faith was Judaism. To claim that he was a Messiah or the Messiah, one is infringing on the Jewish religion, and that's plagiarism of a religion from another. It is only natural that a Jew, somewhere, who cares for Judaism, should choose to stand for the integrity of the Faith. Not with hostility of course, but as an invitation to interfaith dialogue.

Ben

How do you know he wasn't the Messiah?

A lot of Jews seemed to think he was, including some prominent ones, like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimithea.

And, not forgetting Paul, who started out as a vigorous persecutor of the Christians till his conversion experience on the road to Damascus.

If someone appeared today, claiming to be the Messiah, what criteria would you use to decide if he was or not?

[GoldenWolf]

How do you know he wasn't the Messiah?

A lot of Jews seemed to think he was, including some prominent ones, like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimithea.

And, not forgetting Paul, who started out as a vigorous persecutor of the Christians till his conversion experience on the road to Damascus.

If someone appeared today, claiming to be the Messiah, what criteria would you use to decide if he was or not?

I'd use the crazy meter, only a crazy person would claim to be the messiah nowadays with all the anti-christ b.s. in the bible.

[Ben Masada]

At least, you won't be feeling so alone now.

Hey Philangeli, are you a prophet? That's exactly the feeling I had.

Ben