Palestine Is Still The Issue

[buckskin scout]

The whole doc is great especially parts 3 & 4

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igw61CORk6g

Edited June 28, 2012 by dside

[buckskin scout]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzgrqFlINYE

[buckskin scout]

Here is a bonus, a piece from John Pilger's other documentary "The War You Dont See", a seering look at war and the media.

I highly recommend this doc, I cant find the complete doc on youtube but it has been shown on LINK tv recently and may be televised again. WATCH IT if you have the opportunity, tape it on TIVO or the DVR.

[+and-then]

A bit one sided huh? I ask again - what would you have the Israelis to do? And more importantly, if they sequestered themselves onto the land they were granted in 1948 and the "Palestinians" started launching rockets and mortars on them even on THAT piece of land, what would you say then? The "Palestinians" want Israel to cease to exist. Do you think that is reasonable? Do you hold hope that it is even possible?

[Yamato]

Figures these videos don't even get more than a several thousand views on Youtube since Dec 2010. I've never even heard of John Pilger. The blackout of all things Palestine is vital to avoid the propaganda. Israel knows, it's best not to be influenced by what we see over there.

Palestinians of the West Bank live in cages. But Gaza? There are 1.5 million people in Gaza including 800,000+ children that are being subjected daily to medieval conditions we wouldn't tolerate for one day in the US or the UK or any other civilized country. I'm not sure if it's willful blindness or insensitive cruelty in people who can support the status quo over there.

Here's an almost unseen video of Rachel Corrie's father in Gaza in 2009.

[Yamato]

A bit one sided huh? I ask again - what would you have the Israelis to do? And more importantly, if they sequestered themselves onto the land they were granted in 1948 and the "Palestinians" started launching rockets and mortars on them even on THAT piece of land, what would you say then? The "Palestinians" want Israel to cease to exist. Do you think that is reasonable? Do you hold hope that it is even possible?

You always talk about what "the Palestinians" want.

How do you know?

The best ways to end the occupation:

And on the question:” Which, in your opinion, is the best way to end the occupation and establish the Palestinian State ?”, (15.4 %) answered “the peace negotiations till a deal is concluded between the Palestinians and the Israelis”, (26.0 %) “the nonviolent resistance (the popular Intifada)”, (14.4 %) “the work through the United Nations”, (29.4 %) “holding an international conference that impose the solution on all parties involved “, (13.5 %) “violent actions” and (1.3 %) said “I don’t know”.

http://www.pcpo.org/polls.htm

[+and-then]

Again, the question never gets answered. I'm disappointed in you. If the poll is valid that tells me the leadership isn't expressing the will of the people at all. There is a history there that cannot be reasonably denied. They have never been willing to coexist alongside a Jewish State. They make it clear with their words and deeds at every available opportunity. They actively teach hatred of Jews to their children from kindergarten onward. They will accept nothing less than ALL the land. So when a peace is finally struck it doesn't last for long and I suspect that it will have to be proceeded by a horrific loss of life before Israel will even try it again.

So Yam, tell me, if the "Palestinians" were able to declare Statehood over the West Bank, Gaza and any land Arabs of Jordan and Egypt possessed prior to the mandate.....and even then the "Palestinians" kept up the fight to LIBERATE PALESTINE would you then be as vociferous in defending Israel as you have in defending the Arabs?

[Yamato]

Again, the question never gets answered. I'm disappointed in you. If the poll is valid that tells me the leadership isn't expressing the will of the people at all. There is a history there that cannot be reasonably denied. They have never been willing to coexist alongside a Jewish State. They make it clear with their words and deeds at every available opportunity. They actively teach hatred of Jews to their children from kindergarten onward. They will accept nothing less than ALL the land. So when a peace is finally struck it doesn't last for long and I suspect that it will have to be proceeded by a horrific loss of life before Israel will even try it again.

So Yam, tell me, if the "Palestinians" were able to declare Statehood over the West Bank, Gaza and any land Arabs of Jordan and Egypt possessed prior to the mandate.....and even then the "Palestinians" kept up the fight to LIBERATE PALESTINE would you then be as vociferous in defending Israel as you have in defending the Arabs?

The question gets answered every time you ask it.

Unlike "the Palestinians" (so long as you don't kill them all off) their leadership actually changes, so it would behoove you to see the difference between governments and people. Even for "the Palestinians", OMG! For example, leadership eventually changed to Hamas in Gaza elections after all those years of Israel propping up Hamas. The moral of the story remains the same: Stay out of other peoples' business or else be careful what you ask for.

I don't vociferously defend "the Arabs" sir. On merit, I'm a lot closer to defending "the Jews" if you can't see out of those false group-shaped boxes. Because, granted your prophecy, it's a sheer matter of body count and how many lives we're going to save. Sans the prophecy, it's a matter of Zionist policy putting the lives of every Israeli (who are mostly Zionist Jews per Zionist policy) in grave danger. These "Jews" lives wouldn't be endangered over here, so if you believe for one minute what you claim you believe in, what the hell are we paying for them to live over there for? Liberals cannot understand the concept that the solution to most problems caused by government is to stop causing the problem. It doesn't matter to me what religion or ethnicity someone is before I calculate in the back of my brain how much I care about them.

I don't even blame "the Americans" for the bankrupting policies of Obama or the unconstitutionality of the Nazgul in our vaunted democracy, I don't blame "the Jews" for Israel and I don't blame "the Arabs" as if ethnicity is a prerequisite for fighting Israeli oppression. It's false rhetoric and a double standard of how to treat people I will have nothing to do with. Your groups mean absolutely nothing because they're completely irrelevant. If you're a purple, green or orange Zionist of any shoe size it's your fault because you support Zionist tyranny. Zionist policy is the problem and putting that regime (and by extension its policies) out of business is the solution to it.

I pivot off of the Palestinians because after looking at the daily grind over there, that's who's suffering from oppression. Israeli settlers have an awesome standard of living in their "Jewish only" bubbles in wonderland. They're the shiny cities on the hilltops, occupiers of Palestine's best real estate and resources, the roads are theirs alone to travel on. Thank Eru that the seas of Orcs and Goblins ("the Palestinians") surrounding Minas Tirith are held in their cages! It's patently disgusting. I've got 800,000 children between my position and yours. My standard of what I think is a truly moral foreign policy is one which minimizes suffering, so I think the title of the videos on this thread is brilliant (though perhaps not very timely granted the 'Arab Spring') because it duly reminds us not to forget about the daily horror the Palestinians suffer at the hands of the little Nazis in Israel.

If the US puts Mexico under siege and starts colonizing it with Spanish American immigrants, your Zionist nonsense will have come home to roost, and then will you see the mirror? You probably will because it won't be the special interest groups you've been completely brainwashed by Zionists into supporting.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Yamato

[MichaelW]

I've never even heard of John Pilger.

He was a former Australian Vietnam War correspondent turned anti-West campaigner.

Palestinians of the West Bank live in cages. But Gaza? There are 1.5 million people in Gaza including 800,000+ children that are being subjected daily to medieval conditions we wouldn't tolerate for one day in the US or the UK or any other civilized country. I'm not sure if it's willful blindness or insensitive cruelty in people who can support the status quo over there.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1145941

Yeah, very medieval.

[Yamato]

He was a former Australian Vietnam War correspondent turned anti-West campaigner.

http://www.skyscrape...d.php?t=1145941

Yeah, very medieval.

Relative to anywhere else on the planet sans North Korea, yeah it's medieval and more like the Dark Ages. Some people actually believe in perpetual welfare though, so long as it's my money and not theirs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Gaza

[MichaelW]

Relative to anywhere else on the planet sans North Korea, yeah it's medieval and more like the Dark Ages. Some people actually believe in perpetual welfare though, so long as it's my money and not theirs.

http://en.wikipedia....Economy_of_Gaza

Look, unless you've got proof of Gaza's "medievalness" other than an economic article on Wikipedia that doesn't come from a site supporting terrorism on whacko conspiracy theories, you have my full attention.

And your claims that Gaza is "medieval" is pure trash. Sure, it isn't the best place in the world to live, but compared to other places in the Arab world (especially Yemen), Gaza is pretty well off. They should be thankful that they all don't live in mudhuts and have to marry their youngest daughters off to feed the family. Hell, if you even saw the last ten or so pages, you'll find pretty much what most other middle of the road Arab cities look like.

The only thing that separates Gaza from other past war striken cities like Algiers or Dakhla or El Aiun is the fact that Israel is their next door neighbour. That's why Gaza receives so much media attention.

[buckskin scout]

A bit one sided huh? I ask again - what would you have the Israelis to do? And more importantly, if they sequestered themselves onto the land they were granted in 1948 and the "Palestinians" started launching rockets and mortars on them even on THAT piece of land, what would you say then? The "Palestinians" want Israel to cease to exist. Do you think that is reasonable? Do you hold hope that it is even possible?

Under the Partition plan, the Palestinians were given 45% of the land even though they possessed 93% before the Partition Plan. In fact, the reasons they rejected the Partition Plan was because not only were the Jews the smallest minority but that the immigrant Jews given more land (55%) and they were also given the best lands with the most fertile soils. As of right now, IIRC, Israel possesses 78% of the land while the Palestinians "possess" 22%. Additionally, only 10% of Palestinian's land "possession" remains unoccupied which equates 2-3% of Palestine is unoccupied.

What is your stake in this anyways that the "means" is immaterial to the "ends"? To me, the "ends" is insignificant and the "means" is everything.

Here is Human Rights Watch 166 page report on "Separate and Unequal: Israel's Discriminatory Treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories"

Full Article ---> http://www.hrw.org/node/95061

Israel’s Discriminatory Treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories

December 19, 2010

This report shows that Israel operates a two-tier system for the two populations of the West Bank in the large areas where it exercises exclusive control. The report is based on case studies comparing Israel’s starkly different treatment of settlements and next-door Palestinian communities in these areas. It calls on the US and EU member states and on businesses with operations in settlement areas to avoid supporting Israeli settlement policies that are inherently discriminatory and that violate international law.

Full Article ---> http://imeu.net/news...le0022576.shtml

FACT SHEET: 45 YEARS OF OCCUPATION

IMEU, May 29, 2012

June 5, 2012, marks the 45th anniversary of the start of the 1967 War, when Israel launched a surprise attack against Egypt and began its military occupation of the Palestinian West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, and Syrian Golan Heights.

Since that time, Israel has ruled over millions of Palestinians in the occupied territories by military decree, granting them no political rights while relentlessly colonizing their land. Forty-five years on, Israel’s occupation and settlement enterprise become more entrenched by the day, leading many observers to conclude that the creation of a sovereign and territorially contiguous Palestinian state alongside Israel (i.e. the two-state solution) is no longer possible.

The following fact sheet provides an overview of 45 years of Israel's occupation and settlement enterprise.

Full Article ---> http://www.amnesty.o...ghts-2010-10-15

15 October 2010

Illegal Israeli settlement plans threaten Palestinian human rights

Enlarge

Amnesty International on Friday urged the Israeli authorities to abandon plans to construct 238 new housing units in Israeli settlements in occupied East Jerusalem.

"The Israeli authorities must immediately halt expansion of settlements in East Jerusalem and the rest of the occupied West Bank," said Philip Luther, Amnesty International's Deputy Director for the Middle East and North Africa.

"Not only does the building contravene international law, it also compounds the litany of abuses of the human rights of Palestinians living in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, including their rights to adequate housing and water."

Full Article ---> http://www.amnesty.o...y-life-20100118

18 January 2010

Israel's Gaza blockade continues to suffocate daily life

Israel must end its suffocating blockade of the Gaza Strip, which leaves more than 1.4 million Palestinians cut off from the outside world and struggling with desperate poverty, Amnesty International said one year on from the end of Israel’s military offensive in Gaza.

Amnesty International’s briefing paper Suffocating: The Gaza Strip under Israeli blockade gathers testimony from people still struggling to rebuild their lives following Operation “Cast Lead”, which killed around 1,400 Palestinians and injured thousands more.

“Israel claims that the ongoing blockade of Gaza, in force since June 2007, is a response to the indiscriminate rocket attacks launched from Gaza into southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups. The reality is that the blockade does not target armed groups but rather punishes Gaza’s entire population by restricting the entry of food, medical supplies, educational equipment and building materials,” said Malcolm Smart, Middle East and North Africa Director, Amnesty International.

“The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately.”

As the occupying power, Israel has a duty under international law to ensure the welfare of Gaza’s inhabitants, including their rights to health, education, food and adequate housing

http://www.adalah.or...rticles&ID=1782

Israeli and Palestinian Human Rights NGOs Submit Report to UN on Israel’s Practices of Torture and Ill-Treatment of Palestinian Prisoners

14/06/2012

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI), Adalah, Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights, and Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-I) submitted a briefing paper to the UN Human Rights Committee (HRC) to assist in the preparation of its “List of Issues” for the State of Israel. The HRC monitors the compliance of states with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Israel ratified the ICCPR in 1991, and the HRC last reviewed Israel and issued its concluding observations in July 2010.

The human rights organizations’ briefing report described Israel’s practices of torture and ill-treatment, including:

Israel’s legal classification of torture in “ticking time-bomb” situations as a “lesser evil,” which allow torturers to use the “defence of necessity”, in violation of the ICCPR.

Illegal shackling, prolonged solitary confinement and confinement during interrogation, inhumane prison conditions, and severe restrictions on “security prisoners.”

Over 700 complaints of torture and other ill-treatment against the GSS (General Security Service, Shabak) interrogators filed between 2001-2011, according to data provided to PCATI by the Ministry of Justice. All of the complaints were dismissed; no criminal prosecutions have been initiated to date, thus creating a state of perpetual impunity.

Punishment of hunger strikers, including placing leaders of the movement in solitary confinement, fining prisoners daily up to NIS 500, confiscating salt, imposing blackouts, conducting invasive, brutally violent cell searches, and creating illegal obstacles for hunger strikers to meet with their lawyers.

Cruel and degrading treatment of Palestinian civilians in Gaza including illegal closure of borders to movement and trade; harassment and arrest of fishermen, who are often shot at with water cannons or live ammunition and have their boats seized by the Israeli navy even from within the three-nautical mile zone imposed since 2009; denial of medical access for those requiring treatment outside of Gaza; and continued impunity for Operation Cast Lead.

The briefing paper included a list of 28 recommendations for the HRC to call on Israel to adopt in order to comply with the Convention, which included: removing its reservation on Article 9, which forbids arbitrary arrest or detention; instituting audio/video recording interrogations of security suspects; refraining from trying children in military courts; and guaranteeing fair, independent medical doctors for prisoners, especially those on hunger strike.

Here are some Human Rights organizations for Palestinians to check into more stories and statistics:

UN RWA http://www.unrwa.org/

UN OCHAOPT http://www.ochaopt.org/

B'Tselem http://www.btselem.org/

Al-Haq http://www.alhaq.org/

Palestinian Center For Human Rights http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/

Adalah http://www.adalah.org/eng/index.php

Edited June 29, 2012 by dside

[+and-then]

Under the Partition plan, the Palestinians were given 45% of the land even though they possessed 93% before the Partition Plan. In fact, the reasons they rejected the Partition Plan was because not only were the Jews the smallest minority but that the immigrant Jews given more land (55%) and they were also given the best lands with the most fertile soils. As of right now, IIRC, Israel possesses 78% of the land while the Palestinians "possess" 22%. Additionally, only 10% of Palestinian's land "possession" remains unoccupied which equates 2-3% of Palestine is unoccupied.

What is your stake in this anyways that the "means" is immaterial to the "ends"? To me, the "ends" is insignificant and the "means" is everything.

Here is Human Rights Watch 166 page report on "Separate and Unequal: Israel's Discriminatory Treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories"

Full Article ---> http://www.hrw.org/node/95061

Full Article ---> http://imeu.net/news...le0022576.shtml

Full Article ---> http://www.amnesty.o...ghts-2010-10-15

Full Article ---> http://www.amnesty.o...y-life-20100118

http://www.adalah.or...rticles&ID=1782

Here are some Human Rights organizations for Palestinians to check into more stories and statistics:

UN RWA http://www.unrwa.org/

UN OCHAOPT http://www.ochaopt.org/

B'Tselem http://www.btselem.org/

Al-Haq http://www.alhaq.org/

Palestinian Center For Human Rights http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/

Adalah http://www.adalah.org/eng/index.php

My stake is just this: Gen 12:3

I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you."

The question was a simple one yet you avoid answering it in a straightforward way. Do you believe the Jews of Israel have any claim to ANY of the land? You see, as a Christian who believes the land of Israel stretches from the Nile to the Euphrates and down partly into Saudi Arabia I take a rather different view than those who simply look at the current politics of the situation. But there is a group of people like yourself who seem to be exactly opposite and who think of the Jews as usurpers who have stolen the land and have no right to exist there...and possibly anywhere else - are you among these?

[Yamato]

Look, unless you've got proof of Gaza's "medievalness" other than an economic article on Wikipedia that doesn't come from a site supporting terrorism on whacko conspiracy theories, you have my full attention.

And your claims that Gaza is "medieval" is pure trash. Sure, it isn't the best place in the world to live, but compared to other places in the Arab world (especially Yemen), Gaza is pretty well off. They should be thankful that they all don't live in mudhuts and have to marry their youngest daughters off to feed the family. Hell, if you even saw the last ten or so pages, you'll find pretty much what most other middle of the road Arab cities look like.

The only thing that separates Gaza from other past war striken cities like Algiers or Dakhla or El Aiun is the fact that Israel is their next door neighbour. That's why Gaza receives so much media attention.

"Proof" other than the encyclopedia you can't handle? Watch the videos. They were already up before you got here.

Oh they would be thankful that they're not living in mud huts thanks to me and the other taxpayers that aren't the Do-nothings from New Zealand like yourself. "So much?" Gaza doesn't receive ANY media attention. Does New Zealand put Gaza on TV so much while it doesn't contribute one New Zealand Dollar to the foreign welfare that Gaza runs on?

Medieval is the kindest word from the dictionary it deserves. It's strangling the livelihood of millions of people with military force by land, sea, and air. It's among the most vulgar displays of human rights violations in the world. It's State Terrorism.

Palestinians have no self determination, no future, no economy and no hope. If you think Gaza is so important to besiege, pay for it yourself. You have no business telling a US taxpayer what to pay for when you sit on your hands in New Zealand and not contribute to squat. I have no interest in petty banter. I'm now interested in your money, and putting it where your mouth is. When that happens I'll consider you a partner in the solutions I'm presenting. And especially when the solutions I'm presenting are exactly the same as your own country's, it's time for you to either put your foot in your mouth, or else cough your money up.

Ridicule and deride your own country for once and I'll at least consider you honest.

http://www.oxfam.org.nz/newsroom.asp?action=view&type=News&id=1413

[MichaelW]

"Proof" other than the encyclopedia you can't handle? Watch the videos. They were already up before you got here.

From some smug journalist who has criticised nothing but the West ever since he came back from Vietnam? What's next? You telling me that Fox News content is actually fact based?

Oh they would be thankful that they're not living in mud huts thanks to me and the other taxpayers that aren't the Do-nothings from New Zealand like yourself. "So much?" Gaza doesn't receive ANY media attention. Does New Zealand put Gaza on TV so much while it doesn't contribute one New Zealand Dollar to the foreign welfare that Gaza runs on?

Gaza received a lot of attention during Operation Cast Lead and the Floitilla incident. It was usually the first story on all the media channels. Compare this with say, the conflict in Western Sahara (where Morocco annexed Western Sahara against, the local inhabitants will and they've been fighting ever since). Now, tell me, has that conflict received as much media attention as Gaza? No. It has never made the news headlines here and I very much doubt that it has made the news headlines or discusses indepth in the US either.

So, as I said. Gaza receives most of the media attention. I doubt you'd get indignant about what the Moroccans are doing to the inhabitants of Western Sahara because it's Muslim oppressing Muslim and it's therefore fine for them to oppress one another.

And you claim to have standards. Really? It's OK for Muslims to oppress one another now?

Medieval is the kindest word from the dictionary it deserves. It's strangling the livelihood of millions of people with military force by land, sea, and air. It's among the most vulgar displays of human rights violations in the world. It's State Terrorism.

Big words for such a small man.

Palestinians have no self determination, no future, no economy and no hope.

And is it their fault that Palestinian's leaders hold their country to ransom? Is it their fault that Abbas refused yet another offer by the Israeli government this year on the basis that Jerusalem wasn't included, despite the fact that Israel would basically hand over the entire West Bank to the Palestinian authority, thus going back to the 1967 borders as most Arabs wish for Israel to do? Is it the Palestinians fault that Abbas extended his term as President undemocratically? No.

Don't blame the Palestinians for the mistakes their leaders made. Don't blame the Israelis for the mistakes their leaders made as well.

I have no interest in petty banter.

Really now? So why did you post then if you had nothing to contribute? Why did you post if all it contained was the banter that you said that you weren't interested in?

When that happens I'll consider you a partner in the solutions I'm presenting.

Does your solution include camps and gas chambers by any chance?

Ridicule and deride your own country for once and I'll at least consider you honest.

Why? My country doesn't fund occupations. My country has universal healthcare. My country has one of the highest living standards on the planet. My country has one of the best education standards on the planet.

Now, tell me again why I should ridicule New Zealand? Because it's better than the US? Seems a bit silly, don't you think?

[buckskin scout]

My stake is just this: Gen 12:3

I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you."

The question was a simple one yet you avoid answering it in a straightforward way. Do you believe the Jews of Israel have any claim to ANY of the land? You see, as a Christian who believes the land of Israel stretches from the Nile to the Euphrates and down partly into Saudi Arabia I take a rather different view than those who simply look at the current politics of the situation. But there is a group of people like yourself who seem to be exactly opposite and who think of the Jews as usurpers who have stolen the land and have no right to exist there...and possibly anywhere else - are you among these?

Three times the Jews have been driven out of the Holy Land. 3 times. The first time was for over 400 years into the House of Bondage (after which they failed to meet God's conditions). The second time was for 70 years into the Babylonian captivity (once they returned it was usually under foreign rule). The last time for nearly 2000 years (and brought back by the Zionist with alot of Western support).

Gen. 12:3? But wasnt Abraham's birthplace in Ur (Mesopotamia/Iraq)? So really Abraham was not a native but an immigrant when this was spoken to him.

[buckskin scout]

The united monarchy of Israel under Saul, David, and Solomon lasted 95 years from 1026-930 BCE

The Divided Kingdoms: the Kingdom of Israel lasted 208 years from 930-722 BCE, and the Kingdom of Judah lasted 344 years from 930-586 BCE.

Just to add more on the post-captivity Judah, just an overview.

Yehud Medinata 539-332 BCE autonomous province of the Persian Empire

Hellenistic Period 332-164 BCE, mostly autonomous including Ptolemaic Period (301-198 BCE) until the Seleucid Period (198-164 BCE).

Hasmonean Dynasty 164-37 BCE

Roman Period: Roman Client 63BCE-6CE, Herodian Dynasty (37BCE-92CE), Roman province (6CE-135CE). Destruction of the second temple in 70CE and the Jews expulsed from the land in 135CE.

Edited June 30, 2012 by dside

[Yamato]

From some smug journalist who has criticised nothing but the West ever since he came back from Vietnam? What's next? You telling me that Fox News content is actually fact based?

Gaza received a lot of attention during Operation Cast Lead and the Floitilla incident. It was usually the first story on all the media channels. Compare this with say, the conflict in Western Sahara (where Morocco annexed Western Sahara against, the local inhabitants will and they've been fighting ever since). Now, tell me, has that conflict received as much media attention as Gaza? No. It has never made the news headlines here and I very much doubt that it has made the news headlines or discusses indepth in the US either.

So, as I said. Gaza receives most of the media attention. I doubt you'd get indignant about what the Moroccans are doing to the inhabitants of Western Sahara because it's Muslim oppressing Muslim and it's therefore fine for them to oppress one another.

And you claim to have standards. Really? It's OK for Muslims to oppress one another now?

Big words for such a small man.

And is it their fault that Palestinian's leaders hold their country to ransom? Is it their fault that Abbas refused yet another offer by the Israeli government this year on the basis that Jerusalem wasn't included, despite the fact that Israel would basically hand over the entire West Bank to the Palestinian authority, thus going back to the 1967 borders as most Arabs wish for Israel to do? Is it the Palestinians fault that Abbas extended his term as President undemocratically? No.

Don't blame the Palestinians for the mistakes their leaders made. Don't blame the Israelis for the mistakes their leaders made as well.

Really now? So why did you post then if you had nothing to contribute? Why did you post if all it contained was the banter that you said that you weren't interested in?

Does your solution include camps and gas chambers by any chance?

Why? My country doesn't fund occupations. My country has universal healthcare. My country has one of the highest living standards on the planet. My country has one of the best education standards on the planet.

Now, tell me again why I should ridicule New Zealand? Because it's better than the US? Seems a bit silly, don't you think?

Your immature insults aside, you have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Gaza didn't receive ANY media attention during Cast Lead or Freedom Flotilla and it never does. Israel did, just like it always does. You're not over here. Don't tell me what I'm seeing over here, good Heavens.

Medieval is the kindest word from the dictionary this barbaric siege deserves. It's strangling the livelihood of millions of people with military force by land, sea, and air. It's among the most vulgar displays of human rights violations in the world. It's State Terrorism.

People in New Zealand have no bearing on this issue and never will because you live in a bubble where you can completely sever yourself from the problems in the world, not pay for squat, and think you matter enough to tell anyone else what their problems are. You're never going to be attacked by Al Qaeda terrorists in your little safe house in the Pacific because your little country isn't stupid enough to be aiding, arming and enabling Israel.

[Yamato]

despite the fact that Israel would basically hand over the entire West Bank to the Palestinian authority

I haven't heard about this "fact" from the NZ bubble but reality is the exact opposite. What Israel actually said was that there are "new realities" or "new developments on the ground" that mean this is never going to happen. The "1967 borders are indefensible" and therefore not up for negotiation. I don't know where in wonderland you get your propaganda from michaelw but you never fail to produce another pack of lies about Israel/Palestine.

as most Arabs wish for Israel to do?

Who cares what "the Arabs" wish? What is this insidious quasi-racist need to pick these ethnic groups and serve them up in these nasty discussions that defend the oppression of innocent people and children? You should be ashamed of yourself. You should move to Palestine and learn something about the place.

It's never okay for anyone to oppress anyone, and when my money is doing the oppressing, that's what I care about. Repeat that sentence in front of the mirror 10 times every morning if that's what it takes to understand simple statements.

[MichaelW]

Gaza didn't receive ANY media attention during Cast Lead or Freedom Flotilla and it never does. Israel did, just like it always does. You're not over here. Don't tell me what I'm seeing over here, good Heavens.

Have you been living in a cave for the past decade or so? We even received a report every day for the entire length of the 2006 South Lebanon War. The same thing happened with Operation Cast Lead and the same thing happened with the Flotilla. Don't sit there and pretend that everyone stuck their fingers in their ears and ignored it because there was the biggest media shitstorm over the whole issue since the Second Intifada.

You're never going to be attacked by Al Qaeda terrorists in your little safe house in the Pacific because your little country isn't stupid enough to be aiding, arming and enabling Israel.

We were attacked by the French, so we know what terrorism is.

People in New Zealand have no bearing on this issue and never will because you live in a bubble where you can completely sever yourself from the problems in the world.

I live in a bubble? I'm not the one claiming that the entire Western World pretended everything was normal when Operation Cast Lead started, nor when the Flotilla Incident occured. And we have no bearing? Say that to the New Zealanders on board the Flotilla when it was raided. I'm sure they'd love to hear you try to say that their opinions on the conflict are irrelevant.

I haven't heard about this "fact" from the NZ bubble but reality is the exact opposite.

There was a whole thread in this very subforum devoted to said topic if you remember. It is clear that you don't, so let me refresh that memory of yours.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=228005

What Israel actually said was that there are "new realities" or "new developments on the ground" that mean this is never going to happen. The "1967 borders are indefensible" and therefore not up for negotiation. I don't know where in wonderland you get your propaganda from michaelw but you never fail to produce another pack of lies about Israel/Palestine.

Really? The link in the thread I posted above clearly disagrees. But hey, facts are irrelevant when opinion clearly matters.

Who cares what "the Arabs" wish?

Well, the Arabs would. After all, isn't it they who are calling for Israel to return to the 1967 borders? And I can imagine the Palestinians would care as well. And the Israelis. And anyone that wants a peaceful resolution to a conflict which should have existed in the first place.

What is this insidious quasi-racist need to pick these ethnic groups and serve them up in these nasty discussions that defend the oppression of innocent people and children?

What? All I said was that the Arabs support a move by Israel to return to the 1967 borders, therefore handing the land and control of said land over to Palestine. Clearly, I am a murderous b****** racist by actually supporting an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

But hey, context be damned.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

By supporting Palestine? Obviously.

You should move to Palestine and learn something about the place.

Why don't you? After all, you do need to get out of your mother's basement from time to time. And you could do with a learning curve.

It's never okay for anyone to oppress anyone.

Of course, cause that's totally what I was saying.

Repeat that sentence in front of the mirror 10 times every morning if that's what it takes to understand simple statements.

Perhaps you should do that. It would stop you taking everything everyone posts out of context and then going on pointless rants about racism.

[Yamato]

Have you been living in a cave for the past decade or so? We even received a report every day for the entire length of the 2006 South Lebanon War. The same thing happened with Operation Cast Lead and the same thing happened with the Flotilla. Don't sit there and pretend that everyone stuck their fingers in their ears and ignored it because there was the biggest media shitstorm over the whole issue since the Second Intifada.

We were attacked by the French, so we know what terrorism is.

I live in a bubble? I'm not the one claiming that the entire Western World pretended everything was normal when Operation Cast Lead started, nor when the Flotilla Incident occured. And we have no bearing? Say that to the New Zealanders on board the Flotilla when it was raided. I'm sure they'd love to hear you try to say that their opinions on the conflict are irrelevant.

There was a whole thread in this very subforum devoted to said topic if you remember. It is clear that you don't, so let me refresh that memory of yours.

http://www.unexplain...owtopic=228005

Really? The link in the thread I posted above clearly disagrees. But hey, facts are irrelevant when opinion clearly matters.

Well, the Arabs would. After all, isn't it they who are calling for Israel to return to the 1967 borders? And I can imagine the Palestinians would care as well. And the Israelis. And anyone that wants a peaceful resolution to a conflict which should have existed in the first place.

What? All I said was that the Arabs support a move by Israel to return to the 1967 borders, therefore handing the land and control of said land over to Palestine. Clearly, I am a murderous b****** racist by actually supporting an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

But hey, context be damned.

By supporting Palestine? Obviously.

Why don't you? After all, you do need to get out of your mother's basement from time to time. And you could do with a learning curve.

Of course, cause that's totally what I was saying.

Perhaps you should do that. It would stop you taking everything everyone posts out of context and then going on pointless rants about racism.

Have you been living in a cave for the past decade or so? We even received a report every day for the entire length of the 2006 South Lebanon War. The same thing happened with Operation Cast Lead and the same thing happened with the Flotilla. Don't sit there and pretend that everyone stuck their fingers in their ears and ignored it because there was the biggest media shitstorm over the whole issue since the Second Intifada.

Changing the subject to Lebanon in 2006? We are talking about Gaza and the West Bank, and there is no coverage of either one in the US. You don't live here, you don't have a clue. Why don't you try shutting up and listening for a change so you can learn something? I pursue information and when I find it, it's "Pallywood" from Zionists who think that any western coverage on Palestine at all is the last thing they want.

We were attacked by the French, so we know what terrorism is.

Other countries get attacked by the US. A problem you don't share in New Zealand because your country doesn't engage in the stupidity you stupidly assign to my country and my country's taxpayers.

I live in a bubble? I'm not the one claiming that the entire Western World pretended everything was normal when Operation Cast Lead started, nor when the Flotilla Incident occured.

To hear you claim that "Gaza receives most of the coverage" shows how distorted your opinions are about this issue. You have no control of reality to be able to utter such an error as this. You've made several grievous errors in one post.

And we have no bearing? Say that to the New Zealanders on board the Flotilla when it was raided. I'm sure they'd love to hear you try to say that their opinions on the conflict are irrelevant.

Please link me to these New Zealanders and tell me what your bearing is! That'll easily be the most enlightening post you've ever created about Palestine.

There was a whole thread in this very subforum devoted to said topic if you remember. It is clear that you don't, so let me refresh that memory of yours.

No, there is no negotiation for the '67 borders. Can you understand that? You're dreaming the Zionist dream and lying in front of everyone here.

Really? The link in the thread I posted above clearly disagrees. But hey, facts are irrelevant when opinion clearly matters.

That link proves you're either lying or you don't know what you're talking about. 60% of the West Bank isn't the entire West Bank or 1967 borders. You show you don't even understand the meanings of these words. The '67 borders are "indefensible" and off limits. The leaders of Israel were clear about this. Lies are what doesn't matter.

What? All I said was that the Arabs support a move by Israel to return to the 1967 borders, therefore handing the land and control of said land over to Palestine. Clearly, I am a murderous b****** racist by actually supporting an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

"The Arabs" are not a legitimate claimant to anything regarding this issue, so by referring to them over and over again you demonstrate you don't know anything about this issue. They have nothing to do with it. 1967 borders are moot thanks to Zionist Israel. You're very poorly informed if you don't even know this by now.

Well, the Arabs would. After all, isn't it they who are calling for Israel to return to the 1967 borders? And I can imagine the Palestinians would care as well. And the Israelis. And anyone that wants a peaceful resolution to a conflict which should have existed in the first place.

Israel isn't going to return to the 1967 borders and it doesn't matter what "the Arabs" want because it's none of their business. It's not the Palestinians "as well" it's the Palestinians, period. Drop the ethnic group crap already.

Of course, cause that's totally what I was saying.

If you believed that for five minutes you wouldn't spend five seconds disagreeing with the likes of me. You thrive on oppressing Palestinians and you can't help yourself.

Perhaps you should do that. It would stop you taking everything everyone posts out of context and then going on pointless rants about racism.

When Zionist apologists like you stop blathering about ethnic groups, anti-Zionists like me will start to think that bigotry has nothing to do with it. I don't see ethnic groups. I see oppressed people and I don't care what their ethnicity is, or what someone else who shares their ethnicity once said or once did.

[+and-then]

Perhaps you should do that. It would stop you taking everything everyone posts out of context and then going on pointless rants about racism.

When Zionist apologists like you stop blathering about ethnic groups, anti-Zionists like me will start to think that bigotry has nothing to do with it. I don't see ethnic groups. I see oppressed people and I don't care what their ethnicity is, or what someone else who shares their ethnicity once said or once did.

What you are witnessing are people reaping the harvest of their own hatred and inability to make peace. The war that will soon envelop the region will redraw borders and cause populations to be moved within the territory. The hatred won't end but Israel's security problems will be solved for awhile. These are the expectations of most who believe in the fulfillment of Psalm 83 in the near future.

[Yamato]

The Palestinians who keep their eyes down and submit to their oppressor are busy making "peace" with Israel every day, but making Palestine, or as you put it "Palestine", is a tall order. The chance of Palestine's existence is approaching zero, as are the chances to resolve this issue with the two-states some people would like to see, but that's only due to Zionist Israel and US foreign policy. The policy fulfills the prophecy. The more scapegoats Israel herds into the furnace the more spectacular your prophecy will be.

A simmering cauldron of hate stirred by tyranny.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Yamato

[MichaelW]

There is no coverage of either one in the US.

I find that hard to believe.

You don't live here, you don't have a clue.

And so I am lead to believe that someone who doesn't leave his mother's basement nor watches any television knows about media coverage. Gotcha.

To hear you claim that "Gaza receives most of the coverage" shows how distorted your opinions are about this issue.

Oh really? So, all the links I've posted below aren't about Gaza then?

Here's some links from media websites about the report into the Flotilla raid and the aftermath:

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/14/220623.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/14/world/middleeast/israeli-watchdog-criticizes-government-over-gaza-flotilla-raid.html

http://www.rt.com/news/israel-flotilla-report-decision-698/

http://www.france24.com/en/20120613-israel-report-criticises-netanyahu-over-2010-flotilla-raid-turkey-gaza-strip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/24/israel-compensation-mavi-marmara-flotilla

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4236873,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9287152/Turkey-to-charge-Israeli-military-officials-involved-in-Gaza-flotilla-raid.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-57452191-503543/israel-govt-report-blasts-netanyahus-handling-of-gaza-flotilla/

http://www.tehrantimes.com/middle-east/98728-netanyahu-inadequately-heeded-idf-warnings-ahead-of-gaza-flotilla-raid

So, as demonstrated, the media isn't quiet about Gaza.

You have no control of reality to be able to utter such an error as this. You've made several grievous errors in one post.

You don't even have a clue about what reality is.

Please link me to these New Zealanders and tell me what your bearing is! That'll easily be the most enlightening post you've ever created about Palestine.

Well, there was a New Zealander who lead the UN report and here is an article linked to the person detained after the raid:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10649107

Of course, you will refuse to look at the link because you will dismiss it as "Zionist propoganda".

No, there is no negotiation for the '67 borders.

Clearly, otherwise the Israeli government would not have presented the Palestinians with potential control of 60% of the West Bank. You also didn't click on the link showing you the forum thread.

If you are in the persuit of information, clearly you would have been eager to click on the links that provide said information. But you didn't so you are not.

Can you understand that?

I would understand it if the most recent evidence suggested otherwise.

That link proves you're either lying or you don't know what you're talking about.

No it doesn't. What it proves that you didn't actually bother looking at it.

"The Arabs" are not a legitimate claimant to anything regarding this issue.

Clearly, because Palestinians aren't Arabs. How the hell did I miss that?

They have nothing to do with it.

Because occupying Palestine before 1967 and loosing their land claims to Israel after 1967 as well as having sizable Palestinian refugee populations in your country doesn't make your opinion relevant in what happens with regards to Palestine. Seems legit.

Israel isn't going to return to the 1967 borders and it doesn't matter what "the Arabs" want because it's none of their business.

Right, because it wasn't Arab land that wasn't lost in 1967 now was it?

If you believed that for five minutes you wouldn't spend five seconds disagreeing with the likes of me.

That was sarcasm. It would be bleedingly obvious to anyone with functioning brain cells that I don't support the oppression of Palestinians.

You thrive on oppressing Palestinians and you can't help yourself.

Obviously. Clearly stating I don't support the oppression of Palestinians means I support the oppression of Palestinians. /sarcasm

When Zionist apologists like you stop blathering about ethnic groups, anti-Zionists like me will start to think that bigotry has nothing to do with it.

I am a man of God now? Do you even know what the word "bigot" means or even what its origins are?

I don't see ethnic groups. I see oppressed people and I don't care what their ethnicity is, or what someone else who shares their ethnicity once said or once did.

Because stuff that happened in the past totally has no bearing on the present or future /sarcasm. How stupid do you have to be to believe this?

[Yamato]

I find that hard to believe.

And so I am lead to believe that someone who doesn't leave his mother's basement nor watches any television knows about media coverage. Gotcha.

Oh really? So, all the links I've posted below aren't about Gaza then?

Here's some links from media websites about the report into the Flotilla raid and the aftermath:

http://www.alarabiya.../14/220623.html

http://www.nytimes.c...tilla-raid.html

http://www.rt.com/ne...t-decision-698/

http://www.france24....rkey-gaza-strip

http://www.guardian....armara-flotilla

http://www.ynetnews....4236873,00.html

http://www.telegraph...tilla-raid.html

http://www.cbsnews.c...-gaza-flotilla/

http://www.tehrantim...a-flotilla-raid

So, as demonstrated, the media isn't quiet about Gaza.

You don't even have a clue about what reality is.

Well, there was a New Zealander who lead the UN report and here is an article linked to the person detained after the raid:

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10649107

Of course, you will refuse to look at the link because you will dismiss it as "Zionist propoganda".

Clearly, otherwise the Israeli government would not have presented the Palestinians with potential control of 60% of the West Bank. You also didn't click on the link showing you the forum thread.

If you are in the persuit of information, clearly you would have been eager to click on the links that provide said information. But you didn't so you are not.

I would understand it if the most recent evidence suggested otherwise.

No it doesn't. What it proves that you didn't actually bother looking at it.

Clearly, because Palestinians aren't Arabs. How the hell did I miss that?

Because occupying Palestine before 1967 and loosing their land claims to Israel after 1967 as well as having sizable Palestinian refugee populations in your country doesn't make your opinion relevant in what happens with regards to Palestine. Seems legit.

Right, because it wasn't Arab land that wasn't lost in 1967 now was it?

That was sarcasm. It would be bleedingly obvious to anyone with functioning brain cells that I don't support the oppression of Palestinians.

Obviously. Clearly stating I don't support the oppression of Palestinians means I support the oppression of Palestinians. /sarcasm

I am a man of God now? Do you even know what the word "bigot" means or even what its origins are?

Because stuff that happened in the past totally has no bearing on the present or future /sarcasm. How stupid do you have to be to believe this?

Most of your banter here doesn't warrant a response. Your ability to find news articles about Freedom Flotilla is impressive but it's obvious you think that nothing is happening in Gaza every day and ever since. Until violence against Israel erupts again, there is no coverage about Gaza. Violence against Israel is the only concern in the US media. For the definitions of all words, I use the dictionary and encyclopedia michaelw. You should use them too and not reject them as your authority.

Unfortunately New Zealand's government was derelict over its handling of Freedom Flotilla.

http://www.niuenews1...-flotilla/3410/

Edited July 1, 2012 by Yamato