Circumcision ruled as 'bodily harm'

[+ouija ouija]

The key phrase for me in this article is: 'The Court said that a child's right to physical integrity trumped religious and parental rights'. This seems right to me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18833145#

[+OverSword]

Oh I would just love to see what would happen if they banned religiously based circumcision because of one botched job. Heads would roll.

And the article makes it pretty clear that the German government is not going to risk this just because of one judges ruling.

Edited July 13, 2012 by OverSword

[+ouija ouija]

Oh I would just love to see what would happen if they banned religiously based circumcision because of one botched job. Heads would roll.

And the article makes it pretty clear that the German government is not going to risk this just because of one judges ruling.

I think this is a story that will be headline news for a while, with the Jews and Muslims shouting 'tradition' and 'holocaust', and the people of no religious persuasion/non-circumcising persuasion shouting 'stop mutilating babies'! It's always puzzled me that there is always an outcry about female circumcision(illegal in UK), but male circumcision rarely raises an eyebrow.

[+OverSword]

If I had been given a choice the answer would be NO WAY! tmi?

[+ouija ouija]

If I had been given a choice the answer would be NO WAY! tmi?

Exactly! How many people would say 'okay', I wonder?

[+and-then]

An exception has been made for religious reasons.

[+ouija ouija]

An exception has been made for religious reasons.

If you're referring to the doctor being 'let off' the charge, he's been let off for 'ignorance of the law' not religious reasons ...... something that wouldn't be allowed here in the UK.

I'm hoping that a debate will start in Europe along the lines of whether or not this practice is now obsolete. To my mind, to say that 'we do something because we've always done it' is no longer a valid reason.

[smurf0852]

I think this is a story that will be headline news for a while, with the Jews and Muslims shouting 'tradition' and 'holocaust', and the people of no religious persuasion/non-circumcising persuasion shouting 'stop mutilating babies'! It's always puzzled me that there is always an outcry about female circumcision(illegal in UK), but male circumcision rarely raises an eyebrow.

to be fair female circumcision and male circumcision are a totaly diffrent medical procedure ther is really no comparison between the two .that said male circumcision should only be carried out by a doctor for medical reasons not because you think your imaginary friend whants you to.female circumcision however should be considered a crime worldwide and the people who do it prosecuted for GBH.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

The disgusting bacteria infested flap of skin is now mandatory. Sad day this is. Way to go UK. If I had mine I'd cut it off myself in front of the queen with a rusty spoon sharpened on the sidewalk on my way in just to prove its better to have allowed a doctor perform the procedure in a safe sanitary environment. Next since Europeans tend to see arm hair as natural and normal (which it is and the point is coming up next) the UK will make it mandatory for people to keep it taking away their decision to shave or not. Which is a personal choice. It may not be disgusting but should it be the next mandatory thing punishable by law?

Circumcision is a safe procedure now it forced into back alleys or other countries. Way to go UK. I'm proud of you.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

I did rant above. And it was meant to be strongly worded. To the person who said I wonder how many would say okay.... well I'm saying okay. I know things are different in the us than the UK. And I except everyone's personal choice so couldn't it have been just that for male circumcision anyways a personal choice.

I want to say no hard feelings uk and also to those uncut I meant no offense simply illustrating my own person view... ands my wife's and pretty much everyone I've ever talked to in person about it, but again I understand us in America are a bit different. And not all in America support it either which I respectfully can say is their personal choice.

[Habitat]

The disgusting bacteria infested flap of skin is now mandatory. Sad day this is. Way to go UK. If I had mine I'd cut it off myself in front of the queen with a rusty spoon sharpened on the sidewalk on my way in just to prove its better to have allowed a doctor perform the procedure in a safe sanitary environment. Next since Europeans tend to see arm hair as natural and normal (which it is and the point is coming up next) the UK will make it mandatory for people to keep it taking away their decision to shave or not. Which is a personal choice. It may not be disgusting but should it be the next mandatory thing punishable by law?

Circumcision is a safe procedure now it forced into back alleys or other countries. Way to go UK. I'm proud of you.

Not really a good comparison there, for two reasons, firstly underarm hair shaving is hardly an irreversible procedure ( a lot probably wish it was), and it is done with the full knowledge and consent of the owner of the underarms, usually by the owner ! There seems little strength to any pro-circumcision argument for people under the age of legal responsibility, those who attain the age can make up their own minds, much like other forms of bodily mutilation like tattoos and piercings.

[smurf0852]

The disgusting bacteria infested flap of skin is now mandatory. Sad day this is. Way to go UK. If I had mine I'd cut it off myself in front of the queen with a rusty spoon sharpened on the sidewalk on my way in just to prove its better to have allowed a doctor perform the procedure in a safe sanitary environment. Next since Europeans tend to see arm hair as natural and normal (which it is and the point is coming up next) the UK will make it mandatory for people to keep it taking away their decision to shave or not. Which is a personal choice. It may not be disgusting but should it be the next mandatory thing punishable by law?

Circumcision is a safe procedure now it forced into back alleys or other countries. Way to go UK. I'm proud of you.

the right of a person not to have a body part removed by a deluded parent is quite important .if an imaginary friend cult decided that all male children should have there left leg reomoved below there knee because there god said it was proper would that be ok

i think not just because some fool thousands of years ago thought he would get his rocks off cutting small boys forskins off doesnt mean it should continue .i find the delusional stupidity of some people frightining.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Not really a good comparison there, for two reasons, firstly underarm hair shaving is hardly an irreversible procedure ( a lot probably wish it was), and it is done with the full knowledge and consent of the owner of the underarms, usually by the owner ! There seems little strength to any pro-circumcision argument for people under the age of legal responsibility, those who attain the age can make up their own minds, much like other forms of bodily mutilation like tattoos and piercings.

It wasn't meant as a side by side equal comparison. It was meant as a how far will this go next. Mandating how people should be. And if tour American ask around and see why the ladies and guys prefer.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

the right of a person not to have a body part removed by a deluded parent is quite important .if an imaginary friend cult decided that all male children should have there left leg reomoved below there knee because there god said it was proper would that be ok

i think not just because some fool thousands of years ago thought he would get his rocks off cutting small boys forskins off doesnt mean it should continue .i find the delusional stupidity of some people frightining.

Well let the frightening continue. Because I am proud my parents made the right choice. If it frightens you do not do it. Your personal choice.

BOO

[Professor Buzzkill]

It wasn't meant as a side by side equal comparison. It was meant as a how far will this go next. Mandating how people should be. And if tour American ask around and see why the ladies and guys prefer.

This is the same reason why i gave my baby girl breast implants. You ask the guys she now dates if they are happy

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

How is a flap of skin in the same category as a limb? At least when I went to how far would it go I went to something reasonable and used hair. Not a limb.

[Habitat]

It wasn't meant as a side by side equal comparison. It was meant as a how far will this go next. Mandating how people should be. And if tour American ask around and see why the ladies and guys prefer.

What people prefer is more based on what they grew up with and what is the traditional norm than what is 'right', tour around Europe and you will get the opposite opinion. When I was a kid short-back-and-sides haircuts were the norm and anything else was frowned upon, I'd say today a kid would be laughed out of the schoolyard with that old 'sensible' haircut. I am firmly of the view that it should wait till 18, if someone started tattooing a baby they'd be thrown in jail, yet both are permanent changes to the body.

[smurf0852]

How is a flap of skin in the same category as a limb? At least when I went to how far would it go I went to something reasonable and used hair. Not a limb.

its a body part and unless there is a medical reason it should not be removed to do so is bodily harm ,it is as simple as that really stupid medievel beliefs are not a reason and never should be in law.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

This is the same reason why i gave my baby girl breast implants. You ask the guys she now dates if they are happy

So to justify your own view you must take extreme bodily modifications? I am not saying you have to circumcise I am saying to allow it to be a choice. I am standing up to be counted for an unpopular view. Knowing I will be rediculed. I am OK with that because of how happy I am with the choice made for me. Even if I am the only one to stand up I am ok with that. It should be a choice not a law. And I will take whatever ridicule you want to bestow on me to try and make yourselves feel better than me. Its OK because I know what the outcome offers and I am happy with it. It has served a purpose without causing me any troubles. Other than ridicule. So thank you I am happy to take my place beneath you if that is my place.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Aus Der Box Skeptisch

[Habitat]

So to justify your own view you must take extreme bodily modifications? I am not saying you have to circumcise I am saying to allow it to be a choice. I am standing up to be counted for an unpopular view. Knowing I will be rediculed. I am OK with that because of how happy I am with the choice made for me. Even if I am the only one to stand up I am ok with that. It should be a choice not a law. And I will take whatever ridicule you want to bestow on me to try and make yourselves feel better than me. Its OK because I know what the outcome offers and I am happy with it. It has served a purpose without causing me any troubles. Other than ridicule. So thank you I am happy to take my place beneath you if that is my place.

Awww...come on, no one is throwing rocks at you. The best case I can make is that any surgical procedure that is not a medical emergency should wait till the person involved is of an age to make a fully informed decision.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

I just shared my post on break and the responses given back to me and 11 more people wish to be counted too. There were two women and nine males all believes it should be a choice and while the topic is a tough one to discuss every male agreed they felt better off being cut. So lets chaalk it up to personal choice. If not then you are all better than a dozen of us Americans. That should make you feel better about yourselves. I am sorry a discussion like this has to become who is better and who are barbaric but that's where this road lead and this is a response to the discussion whether its approved of or not these are our opinions being shared with you.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Aus Der Box Skeptisch

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Awww...come on, no one is throwing rocks at you. The best case I can make is that any surgical procedure that is not a medical emergency should wait till the person involved is of an age to make a fully informed decision.

Habitat thank you. I really appreciate your post. And I cant say I will disagree. In fact what you said is a very honest and clearly rational opinion. Thank you.

[+and-then]

If you're referring to the doctor being 'let off' the charge, he's been let off for 'ignorance of the law' not religious reasons ...... something that wouldn't be allowed here in the UK.

I'm hoping that a debate will start in Europe along the lines of whether or not this practice is now obsolete. To my mind, to say that 'we do something because we've always done it' is no longer a valid reason.

I'm not sure what harm is done in this procedure. If it is a choice based on religious beliefs then it should be even more sacrosanct, not less. BUT..... if there was real data proving some overwhelming harm then I could see having the discussion. As it is it just seems a backdoor way of attacking religion on another front.

[ShadowSot]

I just don't see the point of carrying out a medical procedure with risks, even though they are rare, for no real reason.

In the same way I view people who get their baby or children's ears pierced.

[hetrodoxly]

There's some really good medical videos on circumcision on the net i posted one a few weeks ago and it was taken down i think (shock horror) because it showed a penis? this one should pass the censors it's a doctor talking about the foreskin, take the time to watch it if you do you'll never have your baby boys circumcised.