zephyr Posted September 27, 2004 #26 Share Posted September 27, 2004 I must admit I trust the European and North American nations to use them responsibly (that being never) than I do any of the Asian ones. 280935[/snapback] Need I remind you that the only country that has ever used one is a North American one against an Asian one Seen from here; the trust thing is not as obvious as you mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted September 27, 2004 #27 Share Posted September 27, 2004 oh please 1) current nuclear weaponry is different to the Atom bomb of yesteryear 2) the dropping of those 2 bombs saved countless lives, why? because they US didn't have to Invade japan... and we should also take into consideration that these were the first few atom bombs ever produced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted September 27, 2004 #28 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Need I remind you that the only country that has ever used one is a North American one against an Asian one Yeah....that was during a WORLD war and the first time it had been used...nobody realised exactly what it was going to do. It is also worth noting that hostilities between the US and Japan were started by Japan It wasn't a case of "oh, let's go conquer this country"...or a...*coughs*..."SLAY THE INFIDELS! USE OUR CLEANSING NAPALM!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted September 27, 2004 #29 Share Posted September 27, 2004 exactly it might have been america that went that used the bomb against japan (an asian country) , however Japan started the war against america and do you seriously believe those maniacs, if they had been as advanced as america was, wouldnt have used it instead of conventional weapons at pearl harbour. Come lets face it here im fed up with ultra PC, western nations ARE more responsible than Asian ones on the whole, we are more civilised , we are less likely to be ruled by religious zealots who would nuke US because the hate US ALL . Simple difference between us and them is they have a patholigical hatred for us while we dont for them. If they keep it up though im pretty sure we will and Somehow if the sh** hits the fan id rather be us than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 27, 2004 #30 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Come lets face it here im fed up with ultra PC, western nations ARE more responsible than Asian ones on the whole, we are more civilised , we are less likely to be ruled by religious zealots who would nuke US because the hate US ALL . True, very true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted September 27, 2004 #31 Share Posted September 27, 2004 (edited) Well, I am not sure if this is true or not. I was driving home after working the night shift and heard on the radio that Israel was purchasing a couple thousand bombs from the United States. They talked about how Iraq had a nuclear facilitie and Israel bombed it back in the early 80's. 500 hundred of those bombs being bought are bunker busting bombs and they are waiting till after the election to buy them. It was on the apr or mpr radio network. Just caught the tail end of the news report. So not really sure of all the details and I could be wrong so just putting in my 2 cents . 281265[/snapback] Its true. They're either buying them to use them, or buying them to try and bluff Iran. Oh look, someone from Iran! Need I remind you that the only country that has ever used one is a North American one against an Asian one Seen from here; the trust thing is not as obvious as you mention Need I remind you that this was also a time when carpet bombing was acceptable and the Axis itsself was working on A-bombs too? Edited September 27, 2004 by Stellar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted September 27, 2004 #32 Share Posted September 27, 2004 I am not arguing about whether it was right or wrong for the US to use those nukes, I am simply saying that we can not trust any party not to use their nuclear weapons, as was suggested by Talon! Be it in the West or the East or the South, in matters of self-defence; or what we believe to be self-defence, the civilized and the uncivilized behave the same way! The arguments put forth here about civilization and hatred, are way too general and emotional, not to mention a touch racist, to be worth responding to! I can only say that to judge the Iranian civilization uniquely by the actions of the rulers of the country is the same as judging the American civilization only by the actions of Bush and his administration As for the sh** hitting the fan, I don't think it will make much difference which side you are on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted September 27, 2004 #33 Share Posted September 27, 2004 I can only say that to judge the Iranian civilization uniquely by the actions of the rulers of the country is the same as judging the American civilization only by the actions of Bush and his administration Even if we are to agree that the average person may not agree with the government, no matter how right-wing/fundamentalist it may be...it's said government that has control over nuclear weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 27, 2004 #34 Share Posted September 27, 2004 (edited) Come lets face it here im fed up with ultra PC, western nations ARE more responsible than Asian ones on the whole, we are more civilised , we are less likely to be ruled by religious zealots who would nuke US because the hate US ALL . Although I kind of agree with this, may I remind you that it was Europe's most civilized country, Germany, that brought the greatest horrors in human history into existance. You over estimate civilization. And btw - although I am not supporting that the current terrorist regime of Iran to have nukes (obviously), if Iran would become a democracy, I will have no problem with them having nukes. On the contrary - they are surrounded by millions of radical sunni regimes and sunni terrorists that would slay Shiites as easily as they slay Jews and Christians (the wonders of Wahhabism ). The current regime of Iran isn't natural to Iranian nature - it is pro-Arabic, it is against the romanticism of the once great Persian empire, and it's anti-Jewish (which conflicts with Iranian history - Iranians and Jews have been allies for 2,500 years). The Iranians should rebel against this fascist regime, and establish a democracy. If they need assitance from the outside, I think most of the western countries would love to help. Edited September 27, 2004 by Erikl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 27, 2004 #35 Share Posted September 27, 2004 I am not arguing about whether it was right or wrong for the US to use those nukes, I am simply saying that we can not trust any party not to use their nuclear weapons, as was suggested by Talon! Be it in the West or the East or the South, in matters of self-defence; or what we believe to be self-defence, the civilized and the uncivilized behave the same way! Untrue, we've had them for 60 years, and with exception of using them once to end a World War they've never been used One the other hand you have Pakistan saying if there is a war with India it'll definately use them. The closest the west ever got to this was during the Cols War, when the world was holding its breath and wished nukes didn't even exist... thank god thats over. not to mention a touch racist, Hardly. We're saying the Middle East's cultural level is behind ours in Civil Liberties, nowheredoes anyone say you're racially inferior. Although I kind of agree with this, may I remind you that it was Europe's most civilized country, Germany, that brought the greatest horrors in human history into existance. Not anymore they don't. You could equally argue Russia shouldn't have nukes at the mo because it used to be the leader of the USSR (an empire which really shouldn't have had nukes ). Anyway, Germany doesn't have nukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 27, 2004 #36 Share Posted September 27, 2004 (edited) Not anymore they don't. huh.gif You could equally argue Russia shouldn't have nukes at the mo because it used to be the leader of the USSR (an empire which really shouldn't have had nukes tongue.gif ). Anyway, Germany doesn't have nukes tongue.gif You mis-read my example - I am not reffering to this moment, I am taking an example from a recent event in history, where a nation thought to be enlightened and civilized, more accurately - was considered one of the centers of European civilization, produced the greatest horrors ever seen on this planet. Edited September 27, 2004 by Erikl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 27, 2004 #37 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Germany of today is far different from the Germany of 70 years ago. Then entire face of Europe is different. You could also point out that up until the 1960s the southern US still persecuted blacks, and 25% of the world was under Stalinist occupation. The world has changed much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted September 28, 2004 #38 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I am not arguing about whether it was right or wrong for the US to use those nukes, I am simply saying that we can not trust any party not to use their nuclear weapons, as was suggested by Talon! Be it in the West or the East or the South, in matters of self-defence; or what we believe to be self-defence, the civilized and the uncivilized behave the same way! Untrue, we've had them for 60 years, and with exception of using them once to end a World War they've never been used One the other hand you have Pakistan saying if there is a war with India it'll definately use them. The closest the west ever got to this was during the Cols War, when the world was holding its breath and wished nukes didn't even exist... thank god thats over. not to mention a touch racist, Hardly. We're saying the Middle East's cultural level is behind ours in Civil Liberties, nowheredoes anyone say you're racially inferior. Although I kind of agree with this, may I remind you that it was Europe's most civilized country, Germany, that brought the greatest horrors in human history into existance. Not anymore they don't. You could equally argue Russia shouldn't have nukes at the mo because it used to be the leader of the USSR (an empire which really shouldn't have had nukes ). Anyway, Germany doesn't have nukes 282207[/snapback] There is absolutely no way to be sure that when it comes to defence issues, one country behaves better than another Therefore, to believe that America; for example, would never use her nukes first, is being extremely naive and we all know that she has done so in the past. Now, some countries might mention their intentions before hand and some might not! The original racist remarks were not as you mention them to be in this post, but were really racist by claiming that the West is more "civilized" than others, which is... I wonder how civilized the West must have looked to the Kurds in Halabja who were being gased by German made chemical weapons, launched by French made Mirage planes, given with great courtesy to a known lunatic in exchange for a few $ We can only expect to live in a safer world when everybody, and I mean everybody, including the Westerners open their eyes a bit wider and not hide behind some " we are better than everyone else" B.S Believe me; the world is not like what they show on television Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted September 28, 2004 #39 Share Posted September 28, 2004 zephyr the simpl fact is that our countrys have far more social equality. Its just a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted September 28, 2004 #40 Share Posted September 28, 2004 zephyr the simpl fact is that our countrys have far more social equality. Agreed We don't think it's perfectly alright to stone women to death if they get raped...we don't believe it's okay to kill people for insulting a holy book....if someone puts garbage against the wall of a church, you don't hear about them getting tortured and murdered for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 28, 2004 #41 Share Posted September 28, 2004 (edited) I wonder how civilized the West must have looked to the Kurds in Halabja who were being gased by German made chemical weapons, launched by French made Mirage planes, given with great courtesy to a known lunatic in exchange for a few $ Agreed (p.s I think this is a miracle to be remembered - not since 1979 did an Israeli and an Iranian agreed with eachother over a political issue ) zephyr the simpl fact is that our countrys have far more social equality. Its just a fact. This is true for the moment. We will have to see just how long will it last When the EU will become United States of Europe, I wonder how long will it take, when there would be many muslims there (seeing the un-tolerant remarks made here about muslim presence in Europe by the most leftists members), that a Hilter-like leader will rise up and rule the European Empire, to take care of their muslim "problem". This time he wouldn't have to conquer Europe though... Again people, what I'm saying is that you give too much credit for civilization. Edited September 28, 2004 by Erikl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted September 28, 2004 #42 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I can only say that to judge the Iranian civilization uniquely by the actions of the rulers of the country is the same as judging the American civilization only by the actions of Bush and his administration Even if we are to agree that the average person may not agree with the government, no matter how right-wing/fundamentalist it may be...it's said government that has control over nuclear weapons 282029[/snapback] I agree with you In that post, I was merely replying to the strange ideas of some people who judge 3000 year old civilizations uniquely through the political actions of actual governments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted September 28, 2004 #43 Share Posted September 28, 2004 zephyr the simpl fact is that our countrys have far more social equality. Its just a fact. 282789[/snapback] This is true only within the borders of your countries! The behaviour of Western countries on the international arena is much different from their behaviour at home. I am sorry to say that for us it is very difficult to trust the Western governments, and this mistrust is the result of their arrogant behaviour and politics towards the rest of the world, and not as a result of some built-in, biological, pathological or what have you hatred, as some here have suggested! I wish things were as simple as you believe them to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted September 28, 2004 #44 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You're right...shame on all those westerners who go to the middle east and get beheaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted September 28, 2004 #45 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Gotta make it quick... class ends in 5! There is absolutely no way to be sure that when it comes to defence issues, one country behaves better than another Therefore, to believe that America; for example, would never use her nukes first, is being extremely naive and we all know that she has done so in the past. Now, some countries might mention their intentions before hand and some might not! Most people know that the US wouldnt use its nukes first without enough provokation. What I can see, is any nuclear country having a scortched earth policy-- when they're on the brink of loosing the war, they use their nukes in a "If we cant have it, no one can!" attempt. Now, lets think for a second, how likely is it that the US gets to that point, compared to other countries like Iran...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 28, 2004 #46 Share Posted September 28, 2004 When the EU will become United States of Europe, I wonder how long will it take, when there would be many muslims there (seeing the un-tolerant remarks made here about muslim presence in Europe by the most leftists members), that a Hilter-like leader will rise up and rule the European Empire, to take care of their muslim "problem". This time he wouldn't have to conquer Europe though... And the Europhobia continues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 28, 2004 #47 Share Posted September 28, 2004 (edited) And the Europhobia continues I thought you too were agaisnt the EU becomming a United States of Europe After all, what would be the point in another European country (ie Scotland) if it won't be truly independent, but just another state in a larger country. What would be the difference between that and being part of the UK? Edited September 28, 2004 by Erikl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 28, 2004 #48 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I thought you too were agaisnt the EU becomming a United States of Europe Have you read my posts? After all, what would be the point in another European country (ie Scotland) if it won't be truly independent, but just another state in a larger country. What would be the difference between that and being part of the UK? There is a big difference between the EU superstate and the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 28, 2004 #49 Share Posted September 28, 2004 (edited) Have you read my posts? About youre thoughts about the EU? no, not really. I should rephrase my sentence though: "I would have thought you too will be agaisnt the EU becomming a United States of Europe". There is a big difference between the EU superstate and the UK. No, not if it would be like the US, Russia or Germany are. Not really. Edited September 28, 2004 by Erikl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 28, 2004 #50 Share Posted September 28, 2004 (edited) No, not if it would be like the US, Russia or Germany are. Not really. No, cause it would be a united states of Europe. Not 'lets get Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England to join in united states called Britain... but we're gonna tell all the foriegners its called England anyway so it'll be like the others don't exist ' ... b******s Edited September 28, 2004 by Talon S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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