Babe Ruth Posted December 23, 2012 #126 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Stellar You're a classy guy and in the upper strata of society, so you don't know where criminals lurk. But there are stolen cars, stolen TV sets, stolen fake Rolex watches, and stolen guns, and there is a class of people who deal in those things. I do not associate with those people, but I know they exist, and know that if I go to the shadier parts of any town I can find shady characters. Give me a few hours, and a stolen gun could be bought. You're a bit naive, but that's OK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 23, 2012 #127 Share Posted December 23, 2012 You're a classy guy and in the upper strata of society, so you don't know where criminals lurk. But there are stolen cars, stolen TV sets, stolen fake Rolex watches, and stolen guns, and there is a class of people who deal in those things. I'm fully aware that these people exist, and I'm not denying that there would be weapons on the black market. What I'm saying is that the majority of people wont be running to this black market because they wont know how to find it/have no desire to go through the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paracelse Posted December 24, 2012 #128 Share Posted December 24, 2012 [/background][/size][/font][/color] I'm fully aware that these people exist, and I'm not denying that there would be weapons on the black market. What I'm saying is that the majority of people wont be running to this black market because they wont know how to find it/have no desire to go through the trouble. Not to mention if a flat foot gets into a shady place where illegal guns are sold most likely hie will end up as another stats on police department wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsteroidX Posted December 24, 2012 #129 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Reality check. Black Market guns are given to you. Not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted December 24, 2012 #130 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Reality check. Black Market guns are given to you. Not the other way around. So, let me get this straight. I could 'get' guns from criminals after paying for them (they aren't 'given' to you, as you said)... after that, you lost me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsteroidX Posted December 24, 2012 #131 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Im saying if you dont know what the Black Market does dont look for it. Nobody wants the attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 24, 2012 #132 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Im saying if you dont know what the Black Market does dont look for it. Nobody wants the attention. So then please don't tell me that gun control will not work because everyone will just "get a gun from the black market" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted December 24, 2012 #133 Share Posted December 24, 2012 [/background][/size][/font][/color] I'm fully aware that these people exist, and I'm not denying that there would be weapons on the black market. What I'm saying is that the majority of people wont be running to this black market because they wont know how to find it/have no desire to go through the trouble. I would suggest to you that a criminal mind, convicted felon or Unconvicted felon, would have no trouble finding a stolen (illegal) weapon and using it against some enemy or the other. Your claim that he won't be running to black market is specious and naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 24, 2012 #134 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I would suggest to you that a criminal mind, convicted felon or Unconvicted felon, would have no trouble finding a stolen (illegal) weapon and using it against some enemy or the other. Your claim that he won't be running to black market is specious and naive. And I would suggest to you that 16 yo Johnny Appleseed who just failed his math exam and wants to get back at his teacher wont. Your claim that he would go running to the black market to find a gun is extreme and alarmist. Do you really think that every would-be gun-criminal would be running to the black market to buy a gun if he didnt have one? Or do you concede that many gun-related crimes are committed "in the moment" with guns due to the fact that guns are on-hand and easily accessible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted December 24, 2012 #135 Share Posted December 24, 2012 And I would suggest to you that 16 yo Johnny Appleseed who just failed his math exam and wants to get back at his teacher wont. Your claim that he would go running to the black market to find a gun is extreme and alarmist. Do you really think that every would-be gun-criminal would be running to the black market to buy a gun if he didnt have one? Or do you concede that many gun-related crimes are committed "in the moment" with guns due to the fact that guns are on-hand and easily accessible? I am not suggesting that every murder or shooting is committed with a weapon obtained on the black market. No sir, I'm not. Clearly that is not the case. What I'm saying, for the umpteenth time, is that a black market for guns and other stolen items exists, and that with a little bit of time, any determined person willing to take the risk can participate in that black market. He may not find the exact weapon he would like, but given some time and effort he can obtain a firearm. That's all. Drugs, firearms, TV sets and a host of other consumer items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted December 24, 2012 #136 Share Posted December 24, 2012 The story in the NYT about the shooting upstate of several firemen claimed that the fellow who did it had served 18 years in prison, and finished his parole in 2006. Thus, he was prohibited by law from possessing firearms. So please Stella, explain to me how the law prevented this shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DONTEATUS Posted December 24, 2012 #137 Share Posted December 24, 2012 The gun is just the tool the shooter used. We didnt ban Kool Aid. YEaH ! AND JIM JONES LOVED passing out his Kool-aid ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DONTEATUS Posted December 24, 2012 #138 Share Posted December 24, 2012 The story in the NYT about the shooting upstate of several firemen claimed that the fellow who did it had served 18 years in prison, and finished his parole in 2006. Thus, he was prohibited by law from possessing firearms. So please Stella, explain to me how the law prevented this shooting? More good news for Christmas Eah ! B&R ? See what People with Guns Do ? I bet youll come up with something bright to reply to ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 25, 2012 #139 Share Posted December 25, 2012 The story in the NYT about the shooting upstate of several firemen claimed that the fellow who did it had served 18 years in prison, and finished his parole in 2006. Thus, he was prohibited by law from possessing firearms. So please Stella, explain to me how the law prevented this shooting? I'm sorry, did I mistakenly claim somewhere that gun control would stop all gun crimes? The fact of the matter is, the rest of the civilized world knows that proper gun control reduced the amount of gun related crimes. Want evidence? Look at the gun related crime rates of the rest of the civilized world. Hint: They're much lower than the US. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paracelse Posted December 25, 2012 #140 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I'm sorry, did I mistakenly claim somewhere that gun control would stop all gun crimes? The fact of the matter is, the rest of the civilized world knows that proper gun control reduced the amount of gun related crimes. Want evidence? Look at the gun related crime rates of the rest of the civilized world. Hint: They're much lower than the US. No one is more blind than those who refuse to see, I'm saying that to you not to Babe Ruth because I happen to aggree with him. I live in France where guns are VERBOTEN,,, and guess what there isn't a day that one or more people get killed using those firearms that do NOT exist. So what I got to say really ......... Meh1 to each is own., 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted December 25, 2012 #141 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry, did I mistakenly claim somewhere that gun control would stop all gun crimes? The fact of the matter is, the rest of the civilized world knows that proper gun control reduced the amount of gun related crimes. Want evidence? Look at the gun related crime rates of the rest of the civilized world. Hint: They're much lower than the US. I'm sorry, did I mistakenly claim somewhere that gun control would stop all gun crimes? The fact of the matter is, the rest of the civilized world knows that proper gun control reduced the amount of gun related crimes. Want evidence? Look at the gun related crime rates of the rest of the civilized world. Hint: They're much lower than the US. No, you did not mistakenly claim that gun control law would end gun crimes, you purposely stated that some magical gun control law combination would have stopped Newtown, and/or other such incidents. Here Stellar, your position in the debate is that MORE gun laws are needed to prevent such incidents. Yes, of course, some 'reasonable', or some other adjective, style of gun control laws will "make us more civilized", or whatever it is exactly that you're trying to get at. No hard feelings on my part regarding your position, my dear brother expresses the same emotional response to what happened in Newtown. My only point here is that a very specific gun control measure--a prohibition on ownership by convicted felons--that in Utopia would have prevented the deaths of those firemen, failed in a spectacular and horrible fashion. So for those of you who let your emotions drive your statements, I just say "step back, and practice some critical thinking". Step back away from the illusion that legislation can stop crazy people from acting crazy. Edited December 25, 2012 by Babe Ruth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 25, 2012 #142 Share Posted December 25, 2012 No one is more blind than those who refuse to see, I'm saying that to you not to Babe Ruth because I happen to aggree with him. I live in France where guns are VERBOTEN,,, and guess what there isn't a day that one or more people get killed using those firearms that do NOT exist. So what I got to say really ......... Meh1 to each is own. And yet France's gun crime rate is still lower than the USs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 25, 2012 #143 Share Posted December 25, 2012 No, you did not mistakenly claim that gun control law would end gun crimes, you purposely stated that some magical gun control law combination would have stopped Newtown, and/or other such incidents. Yes, I did state that more gun control would stop some gun related incidents, yes. That is a fact backed up by statistics. Hell, even Harvard University did a study of it and came to the same conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOMBIE Posted December 25, 2012 #144 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) No one is more blind than those who refuse to see, I'm saying that to you not to Babe Ruth because I happen to aggree with him. I live in France where guns are VERBOTEN,,, and guess what there isn't a day that one or more people get killed using those firearms that do NOT exist. So what I got to say really ......... Meh1 to each is own., You are exaggerating: Number of Gun Homicides ChartIn France, annual firearm homicides total 2008: 142 2007: 99 2006: 111 2005: 124 2004: 132 2003: 123 2002: 156 2001: 163 2000: 155 1999: 155 1998: 170 1997: 214 http://www.gunpolicy...s/region/france Edited December 25, 2012 by FLOMBIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 25, 2012 #145 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Here Stellar, your position in the debate is that MORE gun laws are needed to prevent such incidents. Yes, of course, some 'reasonable', or some other adjective, style of gun control laws will "make us more civilized", or whatever it is exactly that you're trying to get at. No hard feelings on my part regarding your position, my dear brother expresses the same emotional response to what happened in Newtown. [...] So for those of you who let your emotions drive your statements, I just say "step back, and practice some critical thinking". Step back away from the illusion that legislation can stop crazy people from acting crazy. Are you out of actual arguments that you must resort to calling me emotional? Or is this your standard go-to response when someone disagrees with you? Anyone who believe differently than you must be emotional and not thinking critically, hmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingswan Posted December 26, 2012 #146 Share Posted December 26, 2012 (edited) So for those of you who let your emotions drive your statements, I just say "step back, and practice some critical thinking". Step back away from the illusion that legislation can stop crazy people from acting crazy.How does your critical thinking address this: just compare the USA with any other Western democracy. All countries have legal gun ownership, they all have criminals and the mentally ill, they all have suicides and murders. The big differences are the lack of much in the way of gun control in the USA and the much higher rate of gun deaths there - more deaths in the USA since Newtown than for a whole year in France, for example. Edited December 26, 2012 by flyingswan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted December 26, 2012 #147 Share Posted December 26, 2012 [/background][/size][/font][/color] Yes, I did state that more gun control would stop some gun related incidents, yes. That is a fact backed up by statistics. Hell, even Harvard University did a study of it and came to the same conclusion. Only in the hypothetical. "Could stop", as in maybe it will, and maybe it won't, depending upon the nature of the violation. Short of successfully banning all firearms, "gun control" efforts are pure hypothesis, and judging from empirical evidence, not much more than a warm and fuzzy pipe dream. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted December 26, 2012 #148 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Are you out of actual arguments that you must resort to calling me emotional? Or is this your standard go-to response when someone disagrees with you? Anyone who believe differently than you must be emotional and not thinking critically, hmm? No, I must admit to having transferred my brother's highly emotional state to yours. Apologies for that. Your reasoning, for lack of a better word, is very similar to his, and I erred. Nonetheless, the substance of your argument is nil, considering the vast numbers of gun control laws and other laws that were broken at both Newtown and upstate New York. The reality is that gun control laws have little effect on a determined shooter. It might FEEL good to advocate for a legislative remedy to crazy humans, but it's not too very realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babe Ruth Posted December 26, 2012 #149 Share Posted December 26, 2012 How does your critical thinking address this: just compare the USA with any other Western democracy. All countries have legal gun ownership, they all have criminals and the mentally ill, they all have suicides and murders. The big differences are the lack of much in the way of gun control in the USA and the much higher rate of gun deaths there - more deaths in the USA since Newtown than for a whole year in France, for example. Good points all, but the fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, the US has the Second Amendment, for better or worse, and at the moment, the US has more guns per capita than it does automobiles, in all probability. I'm not trying to make a statistically accurate point there, but we have alot of guns. Besides passing yet another futile gun law, have you any practical suggestions as how those little factoids might be dealt with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted December 26, 2012 #150 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Only in the hypothetical. "Could stop", as in maybe it will, and maybe it won't, depending upon the nature of the violation. Short of successfully banning all firearms, "gun control" efforts are pure hypothesis, and judging from empirical evidence, not much more than a warm and fuzzy pipe dream. I didnt say "could stop", I said "would stop" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now