Arbenol Posted July 25, 2012 #26 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Most replies seem to be driven by emotion. Do any of you actually know what research is being done? Would you be as upset if it was rats instead of cute little kittens? Just asking. Edited July 25, 2012 by Arbenol68 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Chubb Posted July 25, 2012 #27 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Most replies seem to be driven by emotion. Do any of you actually know what research is being done? Would you be as upset if it was rats instead of cute little kittens? Just asking. Most replies seem to be driven by emotion. Do any of you actually know what research is being done? Would you be as upset if it was rats instead of cute little kittens? Just asking. I agree with you completely... I agree with you completely... Even though you edited your post. Edited July 25, 2012 by Junior Chubb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glacknor Posted July 25, 2012 #28 Share Posted July 25, 2012 or just keep them in a dark room? I'm not usually too much in favor of animal experimentation anyway, but this seems extra not right. Cats see better in the dark, a darkened room would accomplish nothing in that department. However, I believe people that do these experiments are using them as an excuse to torture animals. I do my best to study the products I use to NOT put money in the pockets these a-holes. This does costs me more money, but at least my conscience is clear. Most testing is too ensure that CHEMICALS won't hurt us... we've lived for millennia without chemicals... we don't need to wear them now. I do believe in human testing on sociopathic murderers and child rapists, as long as the crimes are clearly vile, undeniable and verified to be legit. Testing on cats can't possibly serve the human race, we are nowhere enough alike in any respect. Yes, I would be just as offended if it were rats. We have plenty of vile primates (the "humans" mentioned above) to use. I just notice how well done this forum set-up is, sweet! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 25, 2012 #29 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Most replies seem to be driven by emotion. Do any of you actually know what research is being done? Would you be as upset if it was rats instead of cute little kittens? Just asking. Its an emotional topic for a lot of people. For animal experiments to be allowed in the UK the animals experiences versus the benefits to society are weighed up. If more good than harm is done they are allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Chubb Posted July 25, 2012 #30 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) I do my best to study the products I use to NOT put money in the pockets these a-holes. This does costs me more money, but at least my conscience is clear. Most testing is too ensure that CHEMICALS won't hurt us... we've lived for millennia without chemicals... we don't need to wear them now. I do believe in human testing on sociopathic murderers and child rapists, as long as the crimes are clearly vile, undeniable and verified to be legit. Nice to hear that someone actually avoids products tested on animals (although its is very difficult to do and information on the topic misleading) rather than just being shocked by it. Well done, stand for your beliefs. However, I believe people that do these experiments are using them as an excuse to torture animals. Really? Testing on cats can't possibly serve the human race, we are nowhere enough alike in any respect. Unfortunately it can, and in this case its what they are trying to do. Edited July 25, 2012 by Junior Chubb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbenol Posted July 25, 2012 #31 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Its an emotional topic for a lot of people. For animal experiments to be allowed in the UK the animals experiences versus the benefits to society are weighed up. If more good than harm is done they are allowed. I'm glad to say that after all this time I find something I agree with you on There seems to be this conception that these researchers are like Dr. Frankenstein. That they're all mad and evil sitting in their labcoats with mad, staring eyes. Animal rights are such that anyone who wants to conduct any animal research needs to jump through some pretty tight ethical hoops, and demonstrate that potential benefits versus the harm. My understanding is that these experiments could further our knowledge and treatment of childhood vision disorders. And really, do you not think that they thought of hoods (or dark rooms) and would have used that if appropriate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 25, 2012 #32 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I'm glad to say that after all this time I find something I agree with you on There seems to be this conception that these researchers are like Dr. Frankenstein. That they're all mad and evil sitting in their labcoats with mad, staring eyes. Animal rights are such that anyone who wants to conduct any animal research needs to jump through some pretty tight ethical hoops, and demonstrate that potential benefits versus the harm. My understanding is that these experiments could further our knowledge and treatment of childhood vision disorders. And really, do you not think that they thought of hoods (or dark rooms) and would have used that if appropriate? I've thought about this and I've reached the following conclusions - 1. An animal in a dark room will know its in a dark room. 2. An animal that awakes from surgery unable to open its eyes will not only experience darkness it will think it has a problem. I suspect sensory deprevation is worse if the animal is anxious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowhive Posted July 25, 2012 #33 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I struggle to see what could really be learned from this, mostly due to cats eyes being so radically different to ours. If these experients will reveal anything it'll be in regards to cats, which won't necessarily be terribly useful to us. (Unless we develop cat eyes.) So I'm with most people, it just seems like it was uncessarily cruel for very little gain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 25, 2012 #34 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I struggle to see what could really be learned from this, mostly due to cats eyes being so radically different to ours. If these experients will reveal anything it'll be in regards to cats, which won't necessarily be terribly useful to us. (Unless we develop cat eyes.) So I'm with most people, it just seems like it was uncessarily cruel for very little gain. Its a mammal. Are brain structures are similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbenol Posted July 25, 2012 #35 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I struggle to see what could really be learned from this, mostly due to cats eyes being so radically different to ours. If these experients will reveal anything it'll be in regards to cats, which won't necessarily be terribly useful to us. (Unless we develop cat eyes.) If these experiments only reveal useful information about cats then they wouldn't do it. I'm sure they thought of that. Why do people want to assume the researchers are just highly qualified sadists? Why can't we view them as people who have a genuine desire to help their fellow man? (and a bit of personal glory, to boot.) And apparently cats are the best model for human eyes. Along with ferrets. If they had used ferrets I wonder whether the Mirror would have run the story. And I bet Ricky Gervais wouldn't have "led the fury". (He's a funny bloke, but since when was he an authority on the subject.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted July 25, 2012 #36 Share Posted July 25, 2012 That's not right. Don't care if it benefits humans, I'd rather humans die than innocent lives being tortured. What is the point in saving humans if we do this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbenol Posted July 26, 2012 #37 Share Posted July 26, 2012 That's not right. Don't care if it benefits humans, I'd rather humans die than innocent lives being tortured. What is the point in saving humans if we do this? That's fine. I have no problem with this principle - it's quite a noble one really. As long as people act accordingly. Does everybody who is appalled by animal testing ensure that they use no products that have been developed that way? Do they ensure that any prescription is for medicines that have not been tested on animals? Would you deny your child life-saving treatment if it had been developed using animal testing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZaraKitty Posted July 26, 2012 #38 Share Posted July 26, 2012 If they sew the eyes closed for a week then take out the stitches I'm okay with that, heck I'd let someone do that to me. The other operation that removes part of the eye is a lot worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simbi Laveau Posted July 26, 2012 #39 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) I should not have seen this..... You know ,"scientists" amaze me. They've been performing the exact same barbaric tests on animals,since the 1940s,all in the name of human safty. Same tests,same lame assed chemicals,with the same results. All this proves to me is,that scientists ,are far stupider than pavlovs dogs,and rats. They learn a whole lot faster than these scientists,given its been 70 years,and they're still not sure about these predictable results. They do not end these programs,because all these p***ant STUPID ON SOME CORPORATIONS PAYROLL SCIENTISTS,WILL BE OUT OF A JOB . OH BOO HOO.... Pauvre pauvre scientists..... I HATE people .They suck they suck they suck . Edited July 26, 2012 by Simbi Laveau 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted July 26, 2012 #40 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) It seems cruel but I am sure there is something positive about it.. and they are not sewed up for long.... I cannot rant and rave over it entirely.. unless I knew the in's and outs of the entire thing.... I will get more time to read on this later...I have a baby to attend to... don't have enough time.. When I get more time,I plan to read up on the science behind it more before I give a more precise opinion / thought .... For now, I see no point in me ranting over it just yet... Edited July 26, 2012 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simbi Laveau Posted July 26, 2012 #41 Share Posted July 26, 2012 It seems cruel but I am sure there is something positive about it.. and they are not sewed up for long.... I cannot rant and rave over it entirely.. unless I knew the in's and outs of the entire thing.... I will get more time to read on this later...I have a baby to attend to... don't have enough time.. When I get more time,I plan to read up on the science behind it more before I give a more precise opinion / thought .... For now, I see no point in me ranting over it just yet... Animals used in these tests,are euthanized as soon as the tests are over .They use guillotines to behead the bunnies. I know that for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ever Learning Posted July 26, 2012 #42 Share Posted July 26, 2012 wtf i wouldnt of believed it if i hadnt read it. how can you justify sowing kittens eyes and then having them put down afterwards. is the latter because it would be cruel to keep them alive after these traumatic experiences? i would rather be a hermit than be payed to torture kittens. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted July 26, 2012 #43 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Usually euthanasia is best for them. After the abuse they suffer they wouldn't make good pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ever Learning Posted July 26, 2012 #44 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Its just an animal. It doesnt experience pain like we do and its being used to better our lives. Its just an animal. It doesnt experience pain like we do and its being used to better our lives. im sorry we all forgot that cats dont feel pain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ever Learning Posted July 26, 2012 #45 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Medical treatment and drugs require animal testing. Until we can clone a slab of human flesh there is no realistic alternative. The animals are given pain relief if they have a brain capable of experiencing pain how we do. They dont suffer in that respect. I personally would swap the animals for serious offenders as human experimentation is more valuable. But I'm not PM. Medical treatment and drugs require animal testing. Until we can clone a slab of human flesh there is no realistic alternative. The animals are given pain relief if they have a brain capable of experiencing pain how we do. They dont suffer in that respect. I personally would swap the animals for serious offenders as human experimentation is more valuable. But I'm not PM. the end result of prison is meant to be rehabilitation but i wouldnt mind these experiments being done on pedophiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted July 26, 2012 #46 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Most replies seem to be driven by emotion. Do any of you actually know what research is being done? Would you be as upset if it was rats instead of cute little kittens? Just asking. Right, now that I have had a bit more time to read the article in full ( Little Aaron and Becky are gone for the day to the park and shopping with grandmother..Such a lovely hot day for them ) I have taken more time to digest this entire story, and I have to agree with you Arbeno168, as I have read up on why the experiments are done and their purpose... This however put's me in two minds...i'll explain more on this below... Part of me agree's with the experiments done, as it is written that is done to find a cure for lazy eye ( also known as Amblyopia ) in children that can lead to blindness... My brother when he was just a child had that condition and went through several years of wearing an eye patch and glasses.. His was not sever, it took years before his was ok, although he still wears glasses ..I am not sure what other treatments they gave my brother back then, I too was just a kid at the time.. He was lucky he didn't have to suffer more sever effects... I read more on this condition and found this peice of info below... Amblyopia, also known as lazy eye, is a vision development disorder in which an eye fails to achieve normal visual acuity, even with prescription eyeglasses or contact lenses. Amblyopia begins during infancy and early childhood. In most cases, only one eye is affected. But in some cases, reduced visual acuity can occur in both eyes. Particularly if lazy eye is detected early in life and promptly treated, reduced vision can be avoided. But if left untreated, lazy eye can cause severe visual disability in the affected eye, including legal blindness. Amblyopia Signs and Symptoms Because amblyopia typically is a problem of infant vision development, symptoms of the condition can be difficult to discern. However, a common cause of amblyopia is strabismus. To read more on this, source of info found here - > http://www.allaboutv...s/amblyopia.htm To add...I also know that a lot of the treatments we receive were a result of animal research through works of science, but the treatments we receive to help us, were needed, as there are so many children born will various illness and diseases, that can now be treated more so due to animal research...I am an animal lover, but i am also in favour of children being given treatment to help them through various conditions to prevent them from suffering.. If anyone who seriously understand what I am trying to say, and you know more about this, then you can see why I would hold this opinion...If you know sweet nothing about it, you may find yourself feeling a tad upset with my opinion and give off at me lol.. ( no worries, I am well used to being ranted at ha ha I have almost become immune lol ) ......But I feel even the animal lovers amongst us should also look at both arguments before any of you wish to give off and feel upset by these experiments...To sum up and feel I must lay the emphasis on this - It is always best to view two sides of the fence instead of just one side... Another part of me feels concerned for the kittens who are later put down after the experiment is finished... I just wish they would put more effort into it, and after the experiments are done... at least find the kittens care and later have them re-homed... If these kittens after so many weeks were treated and taken care of and later put into various loving homes, then it would make it look a lot easier to view this with 100 % positive outlook... But they put the kittens down, I feel that is not fair.. ( I gave two abondened kittens a good home and took them in...they are still with us )......I do not like the idea of them being put down...If they explain how they do the experiments using anaesthetic and strictly adhered to Home Office laws on animal welfare...But they should be able to make sure the cats eyes are taken care of afterwards and the kittens are treated and later put into care.. This is my only beef with the entire issue...Other than that, I agree with the experiments ..Well only because I read more into it and hold a general understanding of both arguments... As the article read - The history of animal research is a catalogue of medical breakthroughs that includes vaccines for polio and meningitis and treatments for asthma, diabetes and HIV. All these breakthroughs could not have happened without the limited use of animals for which there were no alternatives.... So unless any of you are experts in science and you can figure out a better way for them to conduct their experiments while looking for breakthrough treatments for children who suffer, then I suggest you step up and present the propper alternative ways for the scientists to use... Edited July 26, 2012 by Beckys_Mom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted July 26, 2012 #47 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) That's not right. Don't care if it benefits humans, I'd rather humans die than innocent lives being tortured. What is the point in saving humans if we do this? Ahhh....I disagree with you on that note...I own two cats Wallie and Misty..actually Wallie is sitting next to me as I type this out and yapping his furry little nut off.. ( most likely him looking more grub, the greedy little git he wants me to let him into the kitchen as per usual )....I love babies and children...But I have looked at both arguments, and both give good arguments concerning this issue... If you get a min free, read my previous post on this...I feel both sides of this argument should be looked at... And I do not agree with your idea of letting humans suffer.. in fact your argument seems to be more cruel than what the scientists are doing, and feel you have not thought this entire thing fully through.. I have lost a child and trust me, when you loose a child of your own, you will know exactly what real pain is.. I do not wish for any child to be left to die.. (or as you put it- rather humans die ) or any human being for that matter who needs treatments...If you wish to come on here to paint everyone a picture that you hold great loving compassion.. at least do so showing compassion for all and not just what suits, meaning look at both sides and imagine yourself as a parent who has a little one that needs treatments.. and if the animal research was never done, your kids dies or suffers long term as a result Like I said in my previous post.. If anyone here is without a shadow of doubt an expert in science and you can present a more positive and easy way for this to be done.. then step up to the plate and present your alternative ...If not.. then at least show some understanding for both sides..I would love for them to be able to conduct this research without the use of any animal, but from all I have read, unfortunately they have not got any alternative... Edited July 26, 2012 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazoo Posted July 26, 2012 #48 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) When I saw the title I thought of animated adorable buttoned eyed kitties. I was so wrong. Edited July 26, 2012 by Kazoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistydawn Posted July 26, 2012 Author #49 Share Posted July 26, 2012 okay guys, I guess I should give my tuppence worth. Firstly, I do not think humans have a right, god-given or other-wise to use animals in testing for their health-betterment. I think ALL life, animal or not has a right to a dignified existence without pain or torture or degradation by any other species, wherever they are on the "food chain." I also think first and fore-mostly, "Could I do this to the creature that others are subjecting it to on my behalf?" If the answer is no, then I don't agree with it. I could never in any life-time, even for my own life's health enhancement, or for those I love, take an animal and sew it's eyes up-not for any amount of time, so how can I possibly be complacent about someone else doing it for me. Also, on the subject of those who do it for the pleasure or derived pleasure of torturing an animal...well, forgive me, but as I age and go along in life, it seems to me, that those who want to torture others, animal or human, are often found in area's of employment where they can act out their fantasies... ie, Priesthood, childcare, nursing professions... just watch the News .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted July 26, 2012 #50 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Ahhh....I disagree with you on that note...I own two cats Wallie and Misty..actually Wallie is sitting next to me as I type this out and yapping his furry little nut off.. ( most likely him looking more grub, the greedy little git he wants me to let him into the kitchen as per usual )....I love babies and children...But I have looked at both arguments, and both give good arguments concerning this issue... If you get a min free, read my previous post on this...I feel both sides of this argument should be looked at... And I do not agree with your idea of letting humans suffer.. in fact your argument seems to be more cruel than what the scientists are doing, and feel you have not thought this entire thing fully through.. I have lost a child and trust me, when you loose a child of your own, you will know exactly what real pain is.. I do not wish for any child to be left to die.. (or as you put it- rather humans die ) or any human being for that matter who needs treatments...If you wish to come on here to paint everyone a picture that you hold great loving compassion.. at least do so showing compassion for all and not just what suits, meaning look at both sides and imagine yourself as a parent who has a little one that needs treatments.. and if the animal research was never done, your kids dies or suffers long term as a result Like I said in my previous post.. If anyone here is without a shadow of doubt an expert in science and you can present a more positive and easy way for this to be done.. then step up to the plate and present your alternative ...If not.. then at least show some understanding for both sides..I would love for them to be able to conduct this research without the use of any animal, but from all I have read, unfortunately they have not got any alternative... I lost my 10 year old sister to cancer. If they could have tested on hundreds of animals by injecting them with cancer and found a cure before she died.... I would rather she died. I know damn fine she would have felt the same way. No matter how much it hurts, I can't accept that load sof naimals should suffer for humans to ahve better health or a better chnace at survival. Animals suffer enough fromt he s***t we cause. I have 2 cats and they don't show much sign of being "there", but I did have a dog that I was close to and she did show sings of being "aware" and "thought". When she hurt her leg a year before she died, she would growl at everyone who tried to touch it, but with me I swear I asked her to show me and she put her leg out for me to see and let me touch it, not once did she growl at me. When we played rough (she was ajack russel, she loved being rough) after we stopped playing she would bow her head to me and put her head up to my lips to get her head kissed. If I did not kiss her head she would be upset and think there was something wrong. Having a connection liek that wiht an animal is special and soemthing that changed my whole view on them.To know that someone would test on an animal like her just rips my heart apart. I've sene videos of how these animals are treated in labs, you think someone who will inject a dog or whatver with somehting lethal that will make it suffer is going to be a caring person?! LOL I've seen these people smack beagles around and everything. It's absolutely disgusting. Animals diserve respect from us. Even Native Americans had more respect for animals than we do now. To think they are worth less than us is ignorance. That is why i don't agree with animal testing. That's fine. I have no problem with this principle - it's quite a noble one really. As long as people act accordingly. Does everybody who is appalled by animal testing ensure that they use no products that have been developed that way? Do they ensure that any prescription is for medicines that have not been tested on animals? Would you deny your child life-saving treatment if it had been developed using animal testing? I try to yes, my housemate looks intot hat stuff and picks what we get in the house. I kinda rely on her with that stuff. I'm also Pescatarian, but don't even eat fish that much. I'm not stupid I knwo the "circle of life" with animals and meat etc, but I don't agree with mass farming and how most animals in those conditions are tortured and unhealthy. (It's not fair the conditions they live in) I also think less of mass farming thna I do of hunting. At least a hunter is most likely to use the whole animal and be greatful for it. (same with small time fishing) Edited July 26, 2012 by Coffey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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