Guest Posted July 31, 2012 #126 Share Posted July 31, 2012 So if you have never worked for a private company why do you buy into the sterotype about them all being corrupt, greedy, enterprises? We know the odd corrupt business pops up now and again but the majority are law abiding and practice Corporate Social Responsibility. PLCs are forced by law and by audits to perform in the best interests of society. As a profession sales is corrupt to the core but remember its just one type of business. Corrupt salesman, dodgy deals, tax evasion are present at most sales businesses. Behind closed doors its actively encouraged too but in the nonesales jobs I have had they have all been correct and proper. Can we also stop this derailment. If you want to take shots at me then pm or start a new thread. This is supposed to be about the NHS but you refuse to discuss the facts presented to you about the NHS - because your prejudiced opinions have been proven to be a crock of .... If you dole out hate don't be surprised when you get a tonne back, but I think justice has been served here and you will never be able to swagger around self rightously again. A result. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None of the above Posted July 31, 2012 #127 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) So if you have never worked for a private company why do you buy into the sterotype about them all being corrupt, greedy, enterprises? We know the odd corrupt business pops up now and again but the majority are law abiding and practice Corporate Social Responsibility. PLCs are forced by law and by audits to perform in the best interests of society. As a profession sales is corrupt to the core but remember its just one type of business. Corrupt salesman, dodgy deals, tax evasion are present at most sales businesses. Behind closed doors its actively encouraged too but in the nonesales jobs I have had they have all been correct and proper. Can we also stop this derailment. If you want to take shots at me then pm or start a new thread. This is supposed to be about the NHS Cherry picking the questions you answer and ignoring all the 'uncomfortable' ones isn't going to get you offf the hook. Neither will your smokescreen about wishing to remain on-topic. You call yourself 'right wing' but that hardly begins to describe your extremist views. You continually make the most hateful comments about vast sections of our society, you attack, you blame, you criticise and vilify. You are a self serving parasite and your personal beliefs are the most odious type of bigoted xenophobic social-darwinism. You've dug your own hole with this thread. You have no empathy or feelings of charity or comradery for your 'fellow man', you cannot possibly expect us to not call you out on the appalling things that you say? What sort of a self deluded bubble do you live in? Let your parents read the hate that you spout. According to you they both served our great nation. Would you really prefer that somone stars a new thread to specifically revisit your deficiencies and earlier confessions from this thread? Edited July 31, 2012 by Atlantia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted July 31, 2012 #128 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I cant bare to listen to that If you have a millionaire (who pays his taxes!) then why should he be punished for his success by having to provide for 10000 NHS tooth fillings? All you'll do is make him emmigrate. Thats why the US was the top brain drain destination and the richest nation on earth. You are living in the past.... I never resented paying higher taxes when I was living in the UK (oh, one thing, only 40%? I paid much more than that under Wilson with Inheritance Tax!!). Plenty of people were much worse off than me, and I respected the fact that if I needed serious surgery or convalescence then I was catered for. No...40% on my earnings above 50K pounds (at the time) was fine by me. Sure, I could have bought a few more Luxury Items, but then you have to ask yourself where my wealth came from in the first place? You sound like you are in love with money, showing off what you have etc. Not me, I am content with whatI have (not ostentatious), a life , a beautiful wife, and a child that will make something of herself without the need for stupid, lavish, tokens. I bet my life is richer and more fulfilled than yours!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSS Posted July 31, 2012 #129 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Would you really prefer that somone stars a new thread to specifically revisit your deficiencies and earlier confessions from this thread? Oh he won't join that thread if it's started, since he's dug himself a hole he can't climb out of. It hasn't dawned on him yet that in post 84 he said his boss expects him to pay tax and NIC's, but he hasn't registered, but a few posts later he said he's not on any books, the company doesn't exist on any books. So his boss wouldn't ask him to pay tax/NIC's when his boss hasn't got him on the books to begin with, since it would just raise a massive great flag with HMRC, and the FSO for running a business in breach of the law. He's made the whole thing up, and hasn't realised he's been caught because he doesn't know how the system works.. Edited July 31, 2012 by The Sky Scanner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 31, 2012 #130 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) but you refuse to discuss the facts presented to you about the NHS - because your prejudiced opinions have been proven to be a crock of .... If you dole out hate don't be surprised when you get a tonne back, but I think justice has been served here and you will never be able to swagger around self rightously again. A result. Br Cornelius What, the made up facts or the ones about Canada which have nothing to do with the UK? Lets point this out again. You and your employer pay more in NICs on a minimum wage to fund the NHS than private healthcare costs. Dont you see it? Even if we retained a much lower NIC rate to cover the young, old and unemployed then we find the NHS is still a complete rip-off. It is not value for money. Edited July 31, 2012 by Mr Right Wing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 31, 2012 #131 Share Posted July 31, 2012 You are living in the past.... I never resented paying higher taxes when I was living in the UK (oh, one thing, only 40%? I paid much more than that under Wilson with Inheritance Tax!!). Plenty of people were much worse off than me, and I respected the fact that if I needed serious surgery or convalescence then I was catered for. No...40% on my earnings above 50K pounds (at the time) was fine by me. Sure, I could have bought a few more Luxury Items, but then you have to ask yourself where my wealth came from in the first place? You sound like you are in love with money, showing off what you have etc. Not me, I am content with whatI have (not ostentatious), a life , a beautiful wife, and a child that will make something of herself without the need for stupid, lavish, tokens. I bet my life is richer and more fulfilled than yours!! I wasnt even alive when Wilson was PM. And yes was. Was before Obama got into power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None of the above Posted July 31, 2012 #132 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) I cant bare to listen to that If you have a millionaire (who pays his taxes!) then why should he be punished for his success by having to provide for 10000 NHS tooth fillings? All you'll do is make him emmigrate. Thats why the US was the top brain drain destination and the richest nation on earth. It's such a tired argument! Yet another one from your 'big book of tired rhetoric'. There is no justification for fat-cat wages and bloated bonuses and the argument that these people will leave the country without them is meaningless. Nobody is irreplacable. Anyone who doesn't want to live under our system can frankly just ****-off! Company exec's, bankers, CEO's...... They can recieve a relatively MASSIVE wage and be content, and if they want more or don't want to pay taxes then my advice is "don't let the cabin dooor hit you in the ass on the way to the whatever country you think will be better than the U.K, but surrender your passport at the terminal because we don't want you back". The argument that they won't be replaced is pathetic. This country is full of people who have untapped potential who would jump at the chance of advancement and the lies of the far right don't change that. Edited July 31, 2012 by Atlantia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted July 31, 2012 #133 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) I wasnt even alive when Wilson was PM. And yes was. Was before Obama got into power. Then you haven't learned from past mistakes... like most "Sheeple"...gimee..gimee...gimee I cannot begin to see how Obama is to blame for your self-centred, egocentric, viewpoint of the world, because by your own admission thats exactly what you were before Obama became Pres. Shallow, Callow, uncaring, and whingeing at everything that cost you a dime. Am I wrong?? So basically, you want to turn this thread into a rant against Obama, instead of a celebration for a Healthcare System that most countries would dearly love to have in the Western World - let alone developing and 3rd World countries. Edited July 31, 2012 by keithisco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2012 #134 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) What, the made up facts or the ones about Canada which have nothing to do with the UK? Lets point this out again. You and your employer pay more in NICs on a minimum wage to fund the NHS than private healthcare costs. Dont you see it? Even if we retained a much lower NIC rate to cover the young, old and unemployed then we find the NHS is still a complete rip-off. It is not value for money. What untruths would they be MR Right Wing man ?? The fact that the American private health care system costs twice as much as the NHS per capita, which by any normal definition of efficiency shows that the US system is half as efficient. Both health care systems produce the same overall result. Let it also be said that the average tax payer still contributes to Medicare and Medicade, but gets half the value for money for the same dollar in America. It seems its only marginally acceptable to allow people to die for lack of health cover in America. Not quite up to your standard there - maybe you would want the Spartan standard - throw sick babies and elderly into the wilderness. Go back and read the Forbes article I linked to and defend your accusation that the NHS is less efficient than the USA system. I will wait for your squirming reply to the truth of the situation. A Civilization is measured by how it looks after its less fortunate citizens. Br Cornelius Edited July 31, 2012 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted July 31, 2012 #135 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) What untruths would they be MR Right Wing man ?? The fact that the American private health care system costs twice as much as the NHS per capita, which by any normal definition of efficiency shows that the US system is half as efficient. Both health care systems produce the same overall result. Let it also be said that the average tax payer still contributes to Medicare and Medicade, but gets half the value for money for the same dollar in America. It seems its only marginally acceptable to allow people to die for lack of health cover in America. Not quite up to your standard there - maybe you would want the Spartan standard - throw sick babies and elderly into the wilderness. Go back and read the Forbes article I linked to and defend your accusation that the NHS is less efficient than the USA system. I will wait for your squirming reply to the truth of the situation. A Civilization is measured by how it looks after its less fortunate citizens... and Salesmen (Mr Wrong Wing) can only exist within a developed Civilisation Br Cornelius "A Civilization is measured by how it looks after its less fortunate citizens." Thereby hangs the truth - without compassion then you are without Civilisation.. Edited July 31, 2012 by keithisco 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2012 #136 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Lets try to summarize the right wing position here. They have a faith that private industry will always produce a cheaper product or service than the public sector. When the evidence clearly demonstates this not to be true they simply ignore that evidence or introduce hidden subsidies to make private industry appear more competitive. This is an ideological belief and is immune from actual evidence, in fact all evidence is irrelivant because what it really comes down to is making opportunities for their rich friends to make a profit and hopefully recieve a bit of backwash at the same time. I believe in evidence based solutions to real problems, when the dead hand of ideology comes into play we all end up been the ultimate losers. Of course then theres the other type of Tory who's just plain selfish and has no real moral conviction at all ... sounds familiar Br Cornelius Edited July 31, 2012 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 31, 2012 #137 Share Posted July 31, 2012 "A Civilization is measured by how it looks after its less fortunate citizens." Thereby hangs the truth - without compassion then you are without Civilisation.. A less fortunate citizen is not entitled to more rights than a more fortunate citizen. Who are you to advocate treating the less fortunate better than the more fortunate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2012 #138 Share Posted July 31, 2012 A less fortunate citizen is not entitled to more rights than a more fortunate citizen. Who are you to advocate treating the less fortunate better than the more fortunate? No one suggested they were, that was a cheap and nasty distortion of what was actually said. An able person will always achieve more privileges and rights than a less able person - regardless of the system they operate in. Its simply a matter of how much a more able person is willing to tolerate, in terms of the suffering of his fellow citizens - and that in turn is a measure of how civilized that person is. I think you fail on that measure as a civilized person. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 31, 2012 #139 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Lets try to summarize the right wing position here. They have a faith that private industry will always produce a cheaper product or service than the public sector. When the evidence clearly demonstates this not to be true they simply ignore that evidence or introduce hidden subsidies to make private industry appear more competitive. This is an ideological belief and is immune from actual evidence, in fact all evidence is irrelivant because what it really comes down to is making opportunities for their rich friends to make a profit and hopefully recieve a bit of backwash at the same time. I believe in evidence based solutions to real problems, when the dead hand of ideology comes into play we all end up been the ultimate losers. Of course then theres the other type of Tory who's just plain selfish and has no real moral conviction at all ... sounds familiar Br Cornelius Private Sector Funded by generating revenues Revenues generated by competing with other businesses for customers The lower the prices the more customers that buy Innovative as this allows them to compete better Favours productive staff as it keeps the wage bill down Favours the minimum amount of staff as it keeps the wage bill down Public Sector Funded by a finite state budget Doesnt compete for customers No pressure to innovate as they get their budget whatever No pressure to favour employing productive staff due to finite budget No pressure to reduce amount of employees due to finite budget Expenditure expands to match the budget even if items and extra staff arent needed Poor costing decisions due to finite budget Riddled with unions pushing up the wage bill and resisting change You have no argument as anybody with experience of both sectors or a business education knows. Private business running costs are cheaper, prices are cheaper, they are more efficient, more productive and the reason is if they arent they dont generate the revenues needed to survive. Edited July 31, 2012 by Mr Right Wing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 31, 2012 #140 Share Posted July 31, 2012 No one suggested they were, that was a cheap and nasty distortion of what was actually said. An able person will always achieve more privileges and rights than a less able person - regardless of the system they operate in. Its simply a matter of how much a more able person is willing to tolerate, in terms of the suffering of his fellow citizens - and that in turn is a measure of how civilized that person is. I think you fail on that measure as a civilized person. Br Cornelius Why should a professional be penalised for someone elses failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSS Posted July 31, 2012 #141 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Why should a professional be penalised for someone elses failure? We can turn that around and ask the same to you. You said your mother and father was in the forces, my father was a fireman for 20plus years, one day whilst on a call he had a bad accident and nearly lost both legs, as well as messing his back up for life...the result was him not being able to work again, he lost his house because he couldn't work, so he had to go to the council and ask for help, they put him on a waiting list and eventually he and my mum were given a small council house. That's the type of people you say you hate. What if your parents had been injured in the course of serving their country, lost their money in medical bills and needed state help - would you hate them as much too? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted July 31, 2012 #142 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Why should a professional be penalised for someone elses failure? Why should we let "professionals" with your asocial behavior partake in society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted July 31, 2012 #143 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) has this thread turned into a party broadcast on behalf of the Right Wing party? Edited July 31, 2012 by 747400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2012 #144 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Private Sector Funded by generating revenues Revenues generated by competing with other businesses for customers The lower the prices the more customers that buy Innovative as this allows them to compete better Favours productive staff as it keeps the wage bill down Favours the minimum amount of staff as it keeps the wage bill down Public Sector Funded by a finite state budget Doesnt compete for customers No pressure to innovate as they get their budget whatever No pressure to favour employing productive staff due to finite budget No pressure to reduce amount of employees due to finite budget Expenditure expands to match the budget even if items and extra staff arent needed Poor costing decisions due to finite budget Riddled with unions pushing up the wage bill and resisting change You have no argument as anybody with experience of both sectors or a business education knows. Private business running costs are cheaper, prices are cheaper, they are more efficient, more productive and the reason is if they arent they dont generate the revenues needed to survive. The thing you miss is that public sector doesn't need to pay profits which is a drain on the resources available to do the actual work. Most of the other supposed benefits of Private sector are purely theoretical and generally do not materialize in real life. The NHS is a case in point and one which you have repeatedly refused to address - it is twice as efficient as the equivalent private model. Can you please address that simple point ? Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 31, 2012 #145 Share Posted July 31, 2012 We can turn that around and ask the same to you. You said your mother and father was in the forces, my father was a fireman for 20plus years, one day whilst on a call he had a bad accident and nearly lost both legs, as well as messing his back up for life...the result was him not being able to work again, he lost his house because he couldn't work, so he had to go to the council and ask for help, they put him on a waiting list and eventually he and my mum were given a small council house. That's the type of people you say you hate. What if your parents had been injured in the course of serving their country, lost their money in medical bills and needed state help - would you hate them as much too? I'm against the low income lefties who believe in a culture of entitlement. They think everything in life should be handed to them on a plate and expect those who are successful to pay for it. This is not about firemen getting injured in the line of duty and having to rely on the state. You also cant really privatise the police, the fire brigade or the military without causing problems. They should stay however their beacracy should be reduced and they should have to account for their spending to stop wastage. The military convent should be expanded to include injured personal for all of them. If I was PM your father would be living in a normal house not one on a council estate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted July 31, 2012 #146 Share Posted July 31, 2012 . What if your parents had been injured in the course of serving their country, lost their money in medical bills and needed state help - would you hate them as much too? Pardon me for interrupting...how can this be with the NHS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted July 31, 2012 #147 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) The thing you miss is that public sector doesn't need to pay profits which is a drain on the resources available to do the actual work. Most of the other supposed benefits of Private sector are purely theoretical and generally do not materialize in real life. The NHS is a case in point and one which you have repeatedly refused to address - it is twice as efficient as the equivalent private model. Can you please address that simple point ? Br Cornelius The point is the costs are higher. If the NHS had to make a profit it would have to streamline or go bust fast. The rest are not supposed benefits but I wouldnt expect anybody who has never worked for the private sector to understand this. The NHS is at £122 billion per year an absolute inefficient disgrace. Its almost criminal. Edited July 31, 2012 by Mr Right Wing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2012 #148 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Why should a professional be penalised for someone elses failure? No one is been penalised - the profits of the private professional are contingent on a functional society which is largely made up of public institutions and the public sector. He could not function without a state to make it possible to move his goods and to guarantee the contractual obligations he enters into. If the businesses had to internalize all the costs which they load onto the public through externalization, then most would no longer be viable. I am not in any way against private business providing services and goods - but they have to be constrained in such a way as they serve the needs and desires of a civil society. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2012 #149 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) The point is the costs are higher. If the NHS had to make a profit it would have to streamline or go bust fast. The rest are not supposed benefits but I wouldnt expect anybody who has never worked for the private sector to understand this. The NHS is at £122 billion per year an absolute inefficient disgrace. Its almost criminal. The NHS provides twice the service that the private sector does for the same money - there is no need for it to make a profit - it works perfectly well as it is. Would you have us double the costs of health care in your drive for efficiency ?? You have been victim to right wing propaganda which lies about the NHS in order to justify replacing it with a more expensive alternative. If you refuse to acknowledge that the USA system is twice as expensive per capita as the NHS then you are not debating but just ranting at us. Br Cornelius Edited July 31, 2012 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSS Posted July 31, 2012 #150 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Pardon me for interrupting...how can this be with the NHS? Well "medical bills" can be a pretty broad spectrum, and whilst not everything is covered by the NHS, it was aftercare in my fathers case I was thinking about, he had some basic home visits but was pretty much left to find and fund his own after that. My point wasn't really about the NHS though, it was about his statement of hating everyone on council estates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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