911

[Babe Ruth]

Antilles

Nevermind Sky for the moment, but the trouble is that the Official Story is contradicted by the evidence.

For example, at WTC there are many many credible witnesses, including firemen and police, who heard significant explosions and saw flowing molten steel. Those phenomena cannot be from the official story that jetfuel fires caused weakening of the steel and a gravitational collapse. Further, satellite thermal images show very significant hot spots, also impossible from jetfuel and a gravitational collapse.

So too the aviation side cannot withstand even the most superficial scrutiny. The Flight Data Recorder provided by the government, supposedly for Flight 77, shows that it was not assigned to any airplane at all. It was bogus and fabricated evidence. If the government story were true, as you and Sky allege, it would not need to provide bogus FDR.

It goes on and on, in the same pattern--deception.

[booNyzarC]

But they did get caught. Nearly everything they said was a lie. Thats from the damn 9/11 commition. The only reason they havent been held accountable is cause there are enough morons to defend them. I mean seriously, you cant think the top of a building can fall through the rest of the building AT FREE FALL SPEED, and not run into some serious physics problems. You cant Look at another building, watch it fall in the same exact mannor as every controled demolititon do on this planet and say fire did it. The ONLY reason this stupidity continues is cause main stream backs it. And where main stream goes, the sheep follow.

The biggest problem with your complaint here is that The North and South Towers didn't actually come down at free fall speed at all. You've been fed a lot of lies by the Truth Movement, and frankly I'm surprised that anyone at all still believes this particular canard.

[Coffey]

If the government was supposedly in on the destruction of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, then why did al-Qaeda admit to it? Why is bin Laden now dead? Let me guess, there is another conspiracy that al-Qaeda isn't real and it was a bunch of Islamists in on the conspiracy with the American government to blame them and then fake the murder of Osama bin Laden? Why does everything have to be a conspiracy?

Perhaps, the more rational explanation is that the United States added embassies to holy Muslim ground and they didn't like it. Why would the government even destroy the WTC and the Pentagon exactly?

Al Qaeda... You'd need to understand who Al Qaeda are first and then learn who Osama Bin Laden was as well; I'll fill you in quickly. Al Qaeda/Taliban was formed from Afghanistan rebels back int he 70's to fight against Russian invaders. They where supplied with weapons and training by the CIA... Yes the CIA actually created the Taliban.... (Ther eis photos of Bin Laden with the CIA in the 70's..)

That's not a conspiracy by the way it's facts and history.

Why would they destroy the WTC... That's obvious, the reason that the Al Qaeda said.... lol The Pentagon wasn't destroyed... in reality it was just scratched really.

As for why? Well in the modern times western society doesn't accept the old "lets take over the world and push our beliefs on everyone", if we acted like the Common wealth used to now there would be public outrage. You have to convince the public that it's their idea and get them to back a war. The truth is the US wants a shiny pipeline to run form Turkmenistan to India. It has to pass through Afghanistan and Pakistan.... That's why they wanted Afghanistan, need to get that gas from Turkmenistan to the Caspian sea.. (If that's a conspiracy theory, then tell me why the pipeline is now being built.. lol)

The one 2 things that stand out to me, one fo which sends alarm bells off in my head. Is firstly John Lear said even he probably couldn't hit one of those towers flying one of those plane with his flight experience. (If you don't know who this guy is then look it up, his dad made and designed the Learjet and he has also flown countless military/government aircraft (including spy planes and experimental aircraft) and civilian aircraft. These guys who did it supposedly got experience from a flight simulator and a couple of lessons in a small plane.... LOL He also mentioned how they managed to overpower the pilots who where ex USAF... but the second thing which makes alarm bells go off. Is the fact we are made to believe that some guys in a cave did it. Sorry but my BS detector goes off right there.

These guys are using 70's military technology to fight against state of the art military technology and they managed to pull this huge operation off.... Even before this attack I couldn't fart in an airport without being strip searched... lol

Edited August 6, 2012 by Coffey

[RaptorBites]

Antilles

Nevermind Sky for the moment, but the trouble is that the Official Story is contradicted by the evidence.

Contradicted by what evidence? Just because this is a new thread on the same tired old subject, does not mean you can hand wave all the evidence presented that CONTRADICTS your theory the government was behind 9/11.

Let me break the next bit down for you.

For example, at WTC there are many many credible witnesses, including firemen and police, who heard significant explosions and saw flowing molten steel.

The sound of explosions can be attributed to the falling of elevators, or do you disagree? Let me guess BR, your "Life Experiences" makes you an expert in identifying explosions. Am I right?

Those phenomena cannot be from the official story that jetfuel fires caused weakening of the steel and a gravitational collapse. Further, satellite thermal images show very significant hot spots, also impossible from jetfuel and a gravitational collapse.

So what is it then BR?

So too the aviation side cannot withstand even the most superficial scrutiny. The Flight Data Recorder provided by the government, supposedly for Flight 77, shows that it was not assigned to any airplane at all. It was bogus and fabricated evidence. If the government story were true, as you and Sky allege, it would not need to provide bogus FDR.

Oh thats rich. Since this is a new thread on the same topic we have been discussion over the course of this year, you have failed to mention this on other threads. Show us proof BR, otherwise your allegations have no meaning.

the flight recorder from flight 77 was not assigned to flight 77? Wheres your proof? Oh yes, you have none. Just because this is a new thread doesnt dismiss you from having to provide us with evidence.

It goes on and on, in the same pattern--deception.

Which so far, you have yet to provide evidence of any foul play what so ever.

Edited August 6, 2012 by RaptorBites

[Babe Ruth]

ALL the evidence Raptor. From WTC to Shanksville to Pentagon, all the evidence contradicts the official story. How can a gravitational collapse leave molten steel for days or weeks? HOW?

How can a Boeing be rendered invisible at Shanksville? HOW does that work?

Why does virtually everybody on the 911 Commission note how they were set up to fail? Why did the Pentagon not cooperate?

The list is endless.

It's been known for years that the FDR data was concocted. Check out Dennis Cimino's findings.

I know, I know, you will offer an ad hom and say his expertise doesn't count.

[Space Commander Travis]

I rather fear this is going to become yet another umpteen page 9/11 overspill thread. We're already talking/arguing about exactly the same things that have been talked/argued about for 456 pages in, for instance, the Pentagon thread.

[Babe Ruth]

You're exactly right 747, and as I just noted on the other thread, we must simply agree to disagree.

Those who wish to believe the OCT are certainly free to do so, and those who do not believe the government story are also free to do so. No hard feelings on my part. Two of my 3 dear brothers believe every word spoken by government officials. They are very happy, blissful, in being able to do that. No hard feelings on my part, but some measure of amusement.

[skyeagle409]

From WTC to Shanksville to Pentagon, all the evidence contradicts the official story.

On the contrary, the evidence does support the official story, which is which is why American Airlines confirmed the loss of American 77 at the Pentagon and United Airlines confirming the loss of United 93 at Shanksville.

...ed the loss ofHow can a gravitational collapse leave molten steel for days or weeks? HOW?

Where did thousands of tons of aluminum end up? Remember, not only were the B-767s constructed of aluminum, but the facade of the WTC buildings contained alumininum as well.

Aluminum and the World Trade Center Disaster

Aluminum was present in two significant forms at the World Trade Center on 9-11:

(i) By far the largest source of aluminum at the WTC was the exterior cladding

on WTC 1 & 2. In quantitative terms it may be estimated that 2,000,000 kg of

anodized 0.09 aluminum sheet was used, in the form of 43,600 panels, to

cover the fa€ade of each Twin Tower.

(i) The other major source of aluminum at the WTC was the aluminum alloy

airframes of the Boeing 767 aircraft that crashed into the Twin Towers on the

morning of 9-11. It may be estimated that, on impact, these aircraft weighed

about 124,000 kg including fuel; of this weight, 46,000 kg comprised the

fuselage and 21,000 kg made up the mass of the wings – all of which were

fabricated from aluminum alloys. Modern airframes are invariably constructed

from series 2000 aluminum alloys. Alloy 2024 is a typical example containing

93 % Al, 4.5 % Cu, 1.5 % Mg, and 0.5 % each of Mn and Fe. These metallic

additions to aluminum lower the melting point of the alloy from a value of

660 C, for pure aluminum, to about 548  C for alloy 2024. This relatively

low temperature indicates that the fires within the Twin Towers were quite

capable of melting at least some of the Boeing 767 aluminum airframe

structures remaining in the WTC before its collapse.

But is there any direct evidence for the presence of molten aluminum at the WTC site on

9-11? The answer to this question is an emphatic: “Yes!” The formation of molten

aluminum in WTC 2 just prior to its collapse was discussed in the well known FEMA and

NIST Reports on the performance of the WTC buildings during 9-11. Here are the

pertinent references:

FEMA: World Trade Center Building Performance Study, Chapter 2, Section 2.2.2.3,

page 34:

“Just prior to the collapse (of WTC 2), a stream of molten metal

- possibly aluminum from the airliner – was seen streaming out

of a window opening at the northeast corner (near the 80th floor level).”

NIST: Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the

World Trade Center Disaster, Volume 4, Appendix H, Section H.9, page 43:

“Starting around 9:52 a.m., a molten material began to pour from the

top of window 80-256 on the north face of WTC 2. The material appears

intermittently until the tower collapses at 9:58:59 a.m. The observation

of piles of debris in this area combined with the melting point behaviors of

the primary alloys used in a Boeing 767 suggest that the material is molten

aluminum derived from aircraft debris located on floor 81.”

http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf

How can a Boeing be rendered invisible at Shanksville? HOW does that work?

It wasn't totally invisible.

It's been known for years that the FDR data was concocted.

Evidence please.

http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf

[Babe Ruth]

That's right Sky, and Pat Tillman was killed by enemy fire and the Gulf Of Tonkin incident was just what the government said it was. Oh yeah, and UA and AA are the same sources of truth that Union Carbide was at Bhopal. Sure Sky, whatever you say....

[RaptorBites]

That's right Sky, and Pat Tillman was killed by enemy fire and the Gulf Of Tonkin incident was just what the government said it was. Oh yeah, and UA and AA are the same sources of truth that Union Carbide was at Bhopal. Sure Sky, whatever you say....

Again, what does Pat Tillman and the DOD have anything to do with 9/11?

You throw around accusations without showing evidence. Which goes to show that you saying anything regarding the 9/11 is all hate mongering towards the US Government.

Show us the evidence BR. Either that or you can just stop posting all together.

[skyeagle409]

That's right Sky, and Pat Tillman was killed by enemy fire and the Gulf Of Tonkin incident was just what the government said it was.

Those incidents had nothing to with the 9/11 attacks, however, those 9/11 conspiracy websites such as "Loose Change" and "Pilots for 9/11 Truth," websites are notorious for spreading lies, misinformation, and disinformation all over the Internet. How many times has "Loose Change" made corrections? Any corrections yet by "Pilots for 9/11 Truth" regarding ACARS?

Oh yeah, and UA and AA are the same sources of truth that Union Carbide was at Bhopal. Sure Sky, whatever you say....

How amusing that you would say such a thing when it doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to determine that Americen Airlines and United Airlines were telling the truth. Any pilot should know how to use proper channels to ascertain what happened to American 11, American 77, United 93, and United 175.

The amazing thing about that is, I've provided some of those channels already and you didn't even understand how to use them.

[mrbusdriver]

You're exactly right 747, and as I just noted on the other thread, we must simply agree to disagree.

Those who wish to believe the OCT are certainly free to do so, and those who do not believe the government story are also free to do so. No hard feelings on my part. Two of my 3 dear brothers believe every word spoken by government officials. They are very happy, blissful, in being able to do that. No hard feelings on my part, but some measure of amusement.

I don't understand where you get the idea that your "opponents" here blindly believe everything the gov't says. The fact is that very many experts in the private sector have looked at the evidence from 9/11 and feel that things occurred pretty much as stated. Does that mean there weren't screwups along the way? Obviously not.

I'm an old air defense guy, and I know full well how that NEADS crew felt as the situation grew way beyond anything they were configured for...it really ticks me royally when folks complain that the F-15s weren't doing m2.5 towards NYC/DC and other such ignorant "expectations". Such CTs just haven't a clue...

No, I don't blindly follow the government line, but when a preponderance of independent expert witnesses come to a conclusion, I'll pay attention. No doubt, someday, there will be another investigation/study. But I have no reason to believe the government could craft and execute such an enormous event...then keep it completely secret...kinda like the Apollo thing. They're just not that good at something that enormous. And the real hardcore 9/11 CTs are a significant minority (kinda the Occupy types...)

I try to live in realville, and not blame some nebulous "them" for the world's, or my, ills. There are real conspiracies out there, but with everyone screaming "wolf", they get lost in the noise. Nothing is a conspiracy when everything is a conspiracy.

[Sakari]

I heard that 9/11 never happened at all...

It was a mis-information tactic, with use of futuristic holographic images, that made it look like the towers collapsed....

The hologram is still on, but it now made a new place where the buildings really are.

Even the War following was fake, it never happened either...That was all done by Hollywood. ( same producers whom faked the moon landing, and the recent mars rover landing )

The two towers are now being used by Comedy Central, they will be releasing all of this information on a April fools 2013 spectacular!

You heard it here first !

[preacherman76]

The biggest problem with your complaint here is that The North and South Towers didn't actually come down at free fall speed at all. You've been fed a lot of lies by the Truth Movement, and frankly I'm surprised that anyone at all still believes this particular canard.

Ok, near free fall speed doesnt come close to covering it either. Not even close. It should have taken nearly a full minute for the top of that building to hammer through all that material. And thats assuming it takes the path of most resistance. Which of course, it wouldnt. Not a single computer model could make what we are told happen happen. They had to remove all kinds of material just to make it come close. ANd by close it still took like 40 some seconds for full collapse. How anyone can believe the official story to me is just amazing.

[Babe Ruth]

I don't understand where you get the idea that your "opponents" here blindly believe everything the gov't says. The fact is that very many experts in the private sector have looked at the evidence from 9/11 and feel that things occurred pretty much as stated. Does that mean there weren't screwups along the way? Obviously not.

I'm an old air defense guy, and I know full well how that NEADS crew felt as the situation grew way beyond anything they were configured for...it really ticks me royally when folks complain that the F-15s weren't doing m2.5 towards NYC/DC and other such ignorant "expectations". Such CTs just haven't a clue...

No, I don't blindly follow the government line, but when a preponderance of independent expert witnesses come to a conclusion, I'll pay attention. No doubt, someday, there will be another investigation/study. But I have no reason to believe the government could craft and execute such an enormous event...then keep it completely secret...kinda like the Apollo thing. They're just not that good at something that enormous. And the real hardcore 9/11 CTs are a significant minority (kinda the Occupy types...)

I try to live in realville, and not blame some nebulous "them" for the world's, or my, ills. There are real conspiracies out there, but with everyone screaming "wolf", they get lost in the noise. Nothing is a conspiracy when everything is a conspiracy.

I must say that yours is a very good post, and I appreciate your sentiments. That said, I accuse some posters of blindly believing government statements because BY THEIR POSTS they vehemently express faith and belief in a story that is so full of holes. Because by their posts they defend preposterous statements by the government. It's just that simple.

There certainly are a few exceptions, as with any sample. Some express questions and doubts. Most do not.

Regarding expert witnesses, I'm all for 'em! Trouble is, when an expert witness derives all of his income, or most of it, from government contracts, I become a bit skeptical. When such an expert's analysis flies in the face of common sense, then I'm very skeptical. That is the case with the "expert witnesses" at WTC. Almost all of them (as I recall--it's been years) have a history of working hand-in-glove with the DoD. There is nothing wrong with that mind you, but it does color the analysis of the statements and conclusions they might reach.

[skyeagle409]

That said, I accuse some posters of blindly believing government statements because BY THEIR POSTS they vehemently express faith and belief in a story that is so full of holes. Because by their posts they defend preposterous statements by the government. It's just that simple.

Actually, what is simple to understand is the fact that recovered and documented evidence have trashed theories of the 9/11 CT folks and support the official story.

That is the case with the "expert witnesses" at WTC.

Expert witnesses that include implosion experts at the scene who have confirmed that there was no evidence of explosives.

Edited August 7, 2012 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

For example, at WTC there are many many credible witnesses, including firemen and police, who heard significant explosions and saw flowing molten steel.

They did not observe flowing molten steel nor did they hear bomb explosions. The flowing molten metal was not indicative of flowing molten steel and seismic monitors in the area did not detect bomb explosions.

Elevators were disaster within disaster

Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

Edited August 7, 2012 by skyeagle409

[RaptorBites]

I must say that yours is a very good post, and I appreciate your sentiments. That said, I accuse some posters of blindly believing government statements because BY THEIR POSTS they vehemently express faith and belief in a story that is so full of holes. Because by their posts they defend preposterous statements by the government. It's just that simple.

Let's see the holes in your CT BR.

Where are the passengers from UA93?

Where is UA flight 93 now?

Why did UA claim the loss of flight 93?

The debris found in Shanksville claimed to be flight UA 93, where did it come from?

What happened to AA flight 77?

What happened to the passengers of AA 77?

Why did AA claim the loss of flight 77?

The debris found at the pentagon claimed to be flight AA 77, where did it come from?

How come no explosive evidence was found at the wreckage of WTC?

Why all the confusion between different groups of CT's regarding the no-plane theory at WTC?

Im sure there are tons of other questions where the CT's cannot explain or cannot agree on.

So who has holes in their stories again?

Edited August 7, 2012 by RaptorBites

[bee]

.

Allow me to intervene on behalf of the Cover Up Theory / No Inside Job... supporters. (CUT NIJ)

Which is me, all on my own....lol

Let's see the holes in your CT BR.

Where are the passengers from UA93?

sadly they died

Where is UA flight 93 now?

it doesn't exist anymore because it was blasted to bits

Why did UA claim the loss of flight 93?

because it was gone/shot down....as a defensive measure

The debris found in Shanksville claimed to be flight UA 93, where did it come from?

I haven't looked into this bit much, but whether there was debris or not is irrelevant to CUT .

What happened to AA flight 77?

Taken over the Atlantic by remote control and shot down as a defensive measure.

What happened to the passengers of AA 77?

see above

Why did AA claim the loss of flight 77?

because it was gone / shot down

The debris found at the pentagon claimed to be flight AA 77, where did it come from?

The Smithsonian Air and Space Museum, Boeing Hangar? Over the Potamac River, Washingto DC

How come no explosive evidence was found at the wreckage of WTC?

Because the WTC towers were brought down by Directed Energy Weapons, not explosives

For the purposes of Damage Limitation...beginning when the top of the South Tower was about to topple over.

Why all the confusion between different groups of CT's regarding the no-plane theory at WTC?

because the Conspiracy Theory is part of a Psychological Operation to confuse and divide...to obscure what really happened.

Ruled by government infiltrators and catching genuine 'truthseekers' in the net.

Im sure there are tons of other questions where the CT's cannot explain or cannot agree on.

see above

.

Edited August 7, 2012 by bee

[Babe Ruth]

Yes, one can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink. One can point the way for another, but one cannot make him think.

Raptor

I never claimed to know the answers to your questions. I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW those answers to understand that I was deceived. I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW how the magician has deceived me to know that I've been deceived.

I do know the answers to a few of your questions: Evidence of explosives WERE found at WTC. Besides the by-products of the thermite reaction being found in the dust that coated everything down there, video and audio evidence show explosions. Many people reported explosions. Explosions blew huge pieces of structural steel exoskeleton horizontally several hundred feet.

CT is not an organized religion with a given set of dogma, Raptor. At least, I am not a member of that church. I am one independent person who believed that nonsense for 4 years (with questions) until I began to study what evidence there actually is. Maybe beta blocker therapy helped me but the psychic trauma behind me, maybe not. It doesn't matter.

I cannot help but wonder if you are in that group of people who believed all the lies and leaks of Bush & Co regarding WMD, and Jessica Lynch, and all that other nonsense?

I did not believe Bush & Co for the simple reason that my military training and experience, though decades old and very limited, allowed me to understand that Iraq and its nonexistent navy, air force and whipped army was NO THREAT AT ALL to the US Army I had been in decades earlier. Just as they lied about all that, they lied about the staged events that let them go to war.

Some folks just never can see the light, some of them don't want to. In the end, it matters not.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Babe Ruth

[skyeagle409]

I do know the answers to a few of your questions: Evidence of explosives WERE found at WTC.

Wrong!! Demolition experts found no evidence of explosives in the rubble.

Besides the by-products of the thermite reaction being found in the dust that coated everything down there,...

False!! Upon examination of the steel taken from the rubble, no evidence was found of thermite cutting.

...video and audio evidence show explosions.

False!! There is no evidence of explosions in the videos nor heard on audio nor detected on seismic detectors in the area. No one heard bomb explosions.

Many people reported explosions. Explosions blew huge pieces of structural steel exoskeleton horizontally several hundred feet.

Elevators were disaster within disaster

Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

So you see, no one heard nor saw bomb explosions, which explains why demolition experts have stated for the record that no evidence of explosives was found in the rubble of the WTC buildings.

[Babe Ruth]

Bee

You might be right about the pax/crew being dead, but I think there are other considerations.

Looking at the operation as one who might have planned it, the passengers could easily be seen as cooperating individuals.

Some researchers, not me, but I've read their work, have delved into the biographies of "the passengers". A curious fact is that while the total number is fairly small considering the number of seats available, only about 200 out of possibly about 800, many of them, not all, were employed in(for lack of a better word) the Military Industrial Complex. Raytheon and others. IF they were cooperating individuals, THEN they are valuable assets. It sounds dramatic, but it IS true, giving people new identifications, papers, is not a difficult thing.

As it happens, one of the flight attendants is from my home town. I did not know her, but I know a handful of people who DID know her, including a defense attorney she hired for some trouble she got into. So I know she existed.

Several years after, her widower and children moved away, even though they had family and friends and close community ties. That does not prove a thing, but they have rather dropped off the face of the earth. Just interesting, that's all.

[Babe Ruth]

Jimminy Sky, you're the same guy who puts up deceptive videos here. I should believe you....why....???

[RaptorBites]

Yes, one can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink. One can point the way for another, but one cannot make him think.

Raptor

I never claimed to know the answers to your questions. I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW those answers to understand that I was deceived. I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW how the magician has deceived me to know that I've been deceived.

This statement alone says a lot about your position.

You claim the OCT has holes, yet you cannot even be bothered to answer questions that would give any of your theories credence.

Who should I believe? Someone who is able to explain how the magic was done? or the magician who doesn't want to explain a damn thing?

It is you who goes on blind faith BR, no the OCT

[skyeagle409]

Jimminy Sky, you're the same guy who puts up deceptive videos here....

How amusing that now, you have added ordinary citizens to the mix of conspiracist. How amusing that you could not figure it out. After all, you DID claim to be a pilot!!

Edited August 7, 2012 by skyeagle409