Roswell: Two Crashes, Not One

[Amerix]

Does French have a book coming out soon too?

[csspwns]

there was probably no crash at all

[TheMacGuffin]

there was probably no crash at all

I doubt that anyone would ever have known about it had Marcel, Blanchard and Haut not sent out that press release, for which they caught unshirted hell from Washington. Nor would anyone have known about it if Stanton Friedman hadn't met Marcel by chance 39 years later.

Jesse Marcel was the one who made Roswell part of history, and ultimately all the roads lead back to him. Of course, we could also give credit to Leonard Nemoy and the old TV show In Search Of, which was actually the first time I ever heard of Roswell and Jesse Marcel. They took him back to the old debris field and he was still saying that an alien spaceship had crashed. I remember watching that episode when it was first broadcast.

Before that time, I don't think I had ever even herad of the town of Roswell, much less the story of a UFO crash. No one used to talk about anything like that in the past.

And with that we are right back where it all started.

Edited August 9, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[bigjonalien]

ow ! wow the thor 2 laser!!!!! ionic discharge, who doesn't know that!

[CRIPTIC CHAMELEON]

I reckon it was only one crash, the debris in the field from the initial impact and what was left flew further on to the second crash site. And I do believe Jesse Marcel that what he saw was not a balloon.

[Hawken]

I doubt that anyone would ever have known about it had Marcel, Blanchard and Haut not sent out that press release, for which they caught unshirted hell from Washington. Nor would anyone have known about it if Stanton Friedman hadn't met Marcel by chance 39 years later.

Jesse Marcel was the one who made Roswell part of history, and ultimately all the roads lead back to him. Of course, we could also give credit to Leonard Nemoy and the old TV show In Search Of, which was actually the first time I ever heard of Roswell and Jesse Marcel. They took him back to the old debris field and he was still saying that an alien spaceship had crashed. I remember watching that episode when it was first broadcast.

Before that time, I don't think I had ever even herad of the town of Roswell, much less the story of a UFO crash. No one used to talk about anything like that in the past.

And with that we are right back where it all started.

On TV did you see the interview of Frankie Rowe who was 12 at the time of the supposive roswell crash. Her father was on the fire department and they

went out to the site and claimed to see little people. She said that the military came to their house and threatened the family to keep quiet. Interesting

[psyche101]

It's almost impossible to find ANY of his reports to his superiors about UFOs, but that's also true about Walker, Sarbacher and all the rest of the scientists who worked on these early investigations. We know for a fact that they did, but there's virtually no written record of what they did, at least nothing that's available to the public.

I was thinking about the Green Fireballs he investigated, there seems much corroboration of his thoughts on that one.

There's nothing in the official record that LaPaz was ever in Roswell, and in fact there's nothing in it at all except the stuff about Project Mogul, the Blanchard pres release and the FBI memo. There's not even a document that anyone ever visited the crash site for any reason, whether to find a balloon or anything else, although we know that people were there.

There were also many civillians there as well though. I still find it hard to fathom that not a one pocketed a piece of debris, unless it was not all that extraordinary.

People often complain that the UFO field relies only on eyewitness testimony, but part of the problem is that so many "official" records are obviously being withheld that often we would never know anything at all without the witnesses.

Some force testimony but that is just taking the eye of the beholder for gospel. I think it is a lazy way to investigate cases, and testimony I feel can only be a precursor to investigation. With such a big question we need good evidences to resolve anything. Personal interpretation should not have bearing, only description, but that rarely, if ever, happens. Official record would help with older cases, but I do not think there is much standing in the way of any individual who wants to pursue the subject. Any modern case can be attacked with gusto, and I would encourage people to do so. As such, I feel the answer to the overall question should not be beyond any person today.

[TheMacGuffin]

This was the In Search Of episode from 1980, where Jesse Marcel first appeared on national TV. That was the old show hosted by Leonard Nimoy, and was very popular at the time. Millions of people would never had heard of Roswell at all if not for this show. I'm certain that I never heard of it before this show was broadcast, or anything like it.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdmv70Mbdjc[/media]

Jesse Marcel stated at this time that he was told by Gen. Ramey to keep his mouth shut, which he did for 30 years. I get the impression that it was a story he really wanted to tell, though.

He described the debris field as extensive and that there were many small pieces of the "tinfoil" that couldn't be burned, bent or dented. That's what really got the whole Roswell story started.

Edited August 9, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

Marcel went on national TV and said that the stuff he found in Roswell was "not anything from this earth", which was quite a big deal in 1980, since few people had ever heard anything like this story before.

Nimoy also interviewer Peter Gerstein, who first found that famous FBI document about the "experimental kite" crashing in Roswell. To this day, it is one of the very few government documents that has ever been released about Roswell.

Certainly the actual report that Jesse Marcel wrote about the debris field has never been released, although it would have been if it confirmed the Mogul balloon story. Of course, we know for a fact that Marcel stated emphatically it was not balloon wreckage or anything remotely like it.

This is the full episode from In Search Of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftDg4kKoc-A

Edited August 9, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

On TV did you see the interview of Frankie Rowe who was 12 at the time of the supposive roswell crash. Her father was on the fire department and they

went out to the site and claimed to see little people. She said that the military came to their house and threatened the family to keep quiet. Interesting

I could believe that since we know that Mac Brazel's whole family was threatened and told to keep quiet, and his two adult sons hurried back to Roswell when they heard their father was being held at the base. This clean up operation on their ranch was lengthy and extensive.

[TheMacGuffin]

And this In Search Of episode was also the first time that Ray Fowler's friend Arthur Stancil went on TV about the 1953 UFO crash, although he didn't want his identity revealed.

Edited August 9, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[psyche101]

This was the In Search Of episode from 1980, where Jesse Marcel first appeared on national TV. That was the old show hosted by Leonard Nimoy, and was very popular at the time. Millions of people would never had heard of Roswell at all if not for this show. I'm certain that I never heard of it before this show was broadcast, or anything like it.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdmv70Mbdjc[/media]

Jesse Marcel stated at this time that he was told by Gen. Ramey to keep his mouth shut, which he did for 30 years. I get the impression that it was a story he really wanted to tell, though.

He described the debris field as extensive and that there were many small pieces of the "tinfoil" that couldn't be burned, bent or dented. That's what really got the whole Roswell story started.

Except for perhaps the magazines, such as the below from May 1948.

[TheMacGuffin]

Except for perhaps the magazines, such as the below from May 1948.

Explaining UFOs as "weather balloons" was already a cliche decades ago, and not taken very seriously. It was often said tongue-in-cheek, in fact. Marcel was insistent that the material he picked up was totally unlike a balloon, and held the Project Mogul explanation in disdain.

Of course, there is no record that he ever said anything about alien bodies or another crash site, but neither is there any record of the reports he must have filed. There is no record of anyone ever filing any reports on the Roswell Incident, although we know that Marcel wrote one, and that Blanchard and Ramey must also have filed something in writing. No none has ever seen the slightest hint of those, however, at least not in the public domain.

I think that if those written records justified the Project Mogul explanation--or any conventional explanation--the Air Force would have been happy to declassify them a long time ago. I don't believe for a minute that Marcel's report stated that he found balloon wreckage.

[Hawken]

Explaining UFOs as "weather balloons" was already a cliche decades ago, and not taken very seriously. It was often said tongue-in-cheek, in fact. Marcel was insistent that the material he picked up was totally unlike a balloon, and held the Project Mogul explanation in disdain.

Of course, there is no record that he ever said anything about alien bodies or another crash site, but neither is there any record of the reports he must have filed. There is no record of anyone ever filing any reports on the Roswell Incident, although we know that Marcel wrote one, and that Blanchard and Ramey must also have filed something in writing. No none has ever seen the slightest hint of those, however, at least not in the public domain.

I think that if those written records justified the Project Mogul explanation--or any conventional explanation--the Air Force would have been happy to declassify them a long time ago. I don't believe for a minute that Marcel's report stated that he found balloon wreckage.

Are there any records of other Mogul type ballons going down in the country or other parts of the world around that time period?

[TheMacGuffin]

Are there any records of other Mogul type ballons going down in the country or other parts of the world around that time period?

Before Roswell, something was going on at White Sands.

New Mexicans Add To Mystery Reports

• Source: El Paso Times
  Date: Saturday, June 28, 1947, p. 1
  

"Mysterious "falling objects" reported near Tularosa and Eagle, New Mexico Friday (June 27, 1947) had not been located or identified late Friday night. There were no rockets fired from the White Sands Proving Ground Friday.

There was much conjecture as to whether the falling objects had any relation to the mysterious flying discs which had been variously reported seen recently from Oregon to Oklahoma.

Lt. Col. Harold R. Turner, commanding officer at White Sands, said that he had received reports that a track walker said he had seen a falling object near Eagle, New Mexico and an Army captain flying his own plane reported seeing an object falling from the skies near Tularosa. Search parties were sent out from White Sands in attempts to locate the objects or secure additional information."

http://kenny.anomalyresponse.org/47elpaso.html

[TheMacGuffin]

Then there were a whole bunch of reports like these in 1947, with our friend weather officer Irving Newton identifying them as conventional object. He was the very same officer called in by Gen. Ramey to identify the Roswell debris for the reporters in his office--more box kites, weather balloons and whatnot, almost like they kept replaying Roswell again and again:

"A third similar box-like gadget covered with silver foil was found Tuesday afternoon on a farm near South Bloomfield.

Last Saturday, the news was flashed throughout the nation that the first such contraption had been found on the farm of Sherman Campbell on the Westfall road in Pickaway county eight miles south of Circleville.

The second such find was reported to Sheriff Charles Radcliff Tuesday afternoon by David C. Heffner, who said he discovered it on a line fence on his farm on the old Tarlton road four and one half miles east of Circleville. Mr. Heffner’s post office address is Route 1, Stoutsville.

The gadgets found by Mr. Campbell and Mr. Heffner were brought to the Circleville Herald. Each is constructed of a light wood frame. Only a remnant of the thin rubber balloon remained attached to the Campbell find, but the other contraption discovered on the Heffner farm includes most of the remains of the balloon which must have measured more than 15 feet in diameter when it was inflated. That device bears the markings: “ML 387, B-AP. Mfg. By Chase.”

Followed in the skies by radar the strange gadgets found near Circleville would have – when whirling in the air – appeared like a “flying saucer.”

As to the box-like object reported in New Mexico Tuesday night, identification as a bit of of “meteorological equipment” was made by Warrant Officer Irving Newton, Stetsonville, Wis., an official of the Eighth Army headquarters weather department.

The Fort Worth office said the “disc” was only a bit of equipment used by Army and weather bureau officials.

An amplyfing statement by public relations officer capt. G. F. Haist said:

“Experts have identified the equipment as a box kite – or a “rawin high altitude sounding device” used by meteorologists.”

The original announcement of the discovery of a so-called “flying disc” came from the Foster ranch near Corona, N.M. An employee on the ranch found the balloon.

An Air Corps public relations officer at Roswell, N.M., Lt. Warren Haught, electrified the country with his report of finding a “disc,” but a few hours later the report blew up with the Fort Worth identification.

Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey, commanding general of the Eight Air Force field, had insisted the “disc” evidently was nothing other than a weather or radar instrument of some sort.

For a time officers planned to bring the “disc” to Wright Field, Dayton, O., by plane. Its identification as remnants of a weather balloon cancelled those plans."

http://kenny.anomalyresponse.org/47Circleville.html#South_Bloomfield

[TheMacGuffin]

In fact, there were a whole bunch of these crashes in 1947, too many to list here, with the military very eager to identify them as balloons and other conventional objects. I think they were trying to defuse public interest in the UFO wave, which they did again and again in the waves of the 1950s and 1960s.

http://kenny.anomalyresponse.org/47index.html

I have reason to believe that the original UFO crash story was in some was connected with White Sands.

[psyche101]

Are there any records of other Mogul type ballons going down in the country or other parts of the world around that time period?

4 in the 48 hour time frame surrounding the Roswell incident. I quoted them back a few pages.

[psyche101]

Explaining UFOs as "weather balloons" was already a cliche decades ago, and not taken very seriously. It was often said tongue-in-cheek, in fact. Marcel was insistent that the material he picked up was totally unlike a balloon, and held the Project Mogul explanation in disdain.

Of course, there is no record that he ever said anything about alien bodies or another crash site, but neither is there any record of the reports he must have filed. There is no record of anyone ever filing any reports on the Roswell Incident, although we know that Marcel wrote one, and that Blanchard and Ramey must also have filed something in writing. No none has ever seen the slightest hint of those, however, at least not in the public domain.

I think that if those written records justified the Project Mogul explanation--or any conventional explanation--the Air Force would have been happy to declassify them a long time ago. I don't believe for a minute that Marcel's report stated that he found balloon wreckage.

I doubt it too, he was adamant that he was showing Irving Newton a piece of flying saucer, but Newton disagreed strongly.

[TheMacGuffin]

I doubt it too, he was adamant that he was showing Irving Newton a piece of flying saucer, but Newton disagreed strongly.

Newton's job seems to have been to help demonstrate to the public and media that all these UFO reports were caused by weather balloons, kites and so on, as I noted above.

[TheMacGuffin]

4 in the 48 hour time frame surrounding the Roswell incident. I quoted them back a few pages.

They weren't necessarily Project Mogul balloons, since that program was just beginning in the summer of 1947.

[psyche101]

Newton's job seems to have been to help demonstrate to the public and media that all these UFO reports were caused by weather balloons, kites and so on, as I noted above.

I think the case according to his signed affidavit is pretty cut and dry though. Not only that, but Marcel seems to have been the only person on that room who was convinced, Newton siad "If that is not a RAWIN, I'll eat it".

I can't say I have seen Newton feature in any other debunks, what other cases did he get involved in?

[TheMacGuffin]

I can't say I have seen Newton feature in any other debunks, what other cases did he get involved in?

The ones I mentioned in #66, which sound very similar to the story they gave out after the Roswell press release. I do think they were trying hard to put the lid on this 1947 UFO wave, at least as far as the public and media were concerned.

In that case, they had Newton located in Wisconsin for some reason, not Ft. Worth, Texas. That is quite a long distance away, in fact, about 1,000 miles away, which means Mr. Newton was getting around quite a bit during the summer of 1947.

Edited August 10, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[psyche101]

The ones I mentioned in #66, which sound very similar to the story they gave out after the Roswell press release. I do think they were trying hard to put the lid on this 1947 UFO wave, at least as far as the public and media were concerned.

In that case, they had Newton located in Wisconsin for some reason, not Ft. Worth, Texas. That is quite a long distance away, in fact, about 1,000 miles away, which means Mr. Newton was getting around quite a bit during the summer of 1947.

But those are genuine balloon crashes, surely they are not touted as possible saucer crashes? I posted a picture of the Pickaway debris, that is without doubt a RAWIN device held up by the finder.

LINK - What Newton is saying these days

[psyche101]

They weren't necessarily Project Mogul balloons, since that program was just beginning in the summer of 1947.

Rygrog was just after Mogul-type though? But still in the same time frame - 48 hours of the incident.