Roswell: Two Crashes, Not One

[psyche101]

That's what Jesse Marcel and many other witnesses said about it as well, but we know that wasn't the same material Gen. Ramey showed the reporters in his office. Wherever that particular balloon wreckage came from, it wasn't from the crash site and probably not even from Project Mogul.

Of course not. Newspaper photos from the following days show AAF personell flying RAWIN targets for the Press just down the Street from Ramey's office, these are exactly the same type seen on the floor in Ramey's office in the famous photos. Dubose said he went and got a RAWIN target and tore it up for the photos. He didn't have to go far to get one.

A question I have for both of you, if the material Irving Newton looked at aka the photographed material was not the real deal, why would Marcel try to convince Newton that what Newton was looking at was the debris he had collected?

[TheMacGuffin]

A question I have for both of you, if the material Irving Newton looked at aka the photographed material was not the real deal, why would Marcel try to convince Newton that what Newton was looking at was the debris he had collected?

My best guess is that Newton was just saying what Gen. Ramey ordered him to say, and that Marcel and DuBose went along with it because they were also under orders. I think it bothered them, though, and years later Marcel and DuBose stated that the wreckage had nothing to do with what was found at the Roswell crash site. Even Ramey was under orders from Washington for that matter, basically to give the media and the public this balloon story.

[DBunker]

Roswell is as dead as a flat cat at the side of the road..... evidence of ET wise.

[Sweetpumper]

Roswell is as dead as a flat cat at the side of the road..... evidence of ET wise.

It's dead, trust me. No need to add the 'evidence of ET wise'.

[TheMacGuffin]

Roswell is as dead as a flat cat at the side of the road..... evidence of ET wise.

Why did they lie so much about it, DB? Think a minute.

We have proven that they did, and that the wreckage they showed was not from the crash site and not from Project Mogul. Now do you have an explanation for all the lies over so many years, as well as the missing records?

This is the type of thing that stands out and demands an explanation, don't you think? I do.

[itsnotoutthere]

The likelihood that Roswell is a reconstruction involving many events over many years is supported by the fact that Roswell was ignored by UFOlogists until Charles Berlitz and William Moore published a book on the subject in 1980, more than thirty years after the event.

UFO buffs trust Berlitz and others with fantastic stories based on 30-year-old memories. That the government made errors and was inconsistent is taken as sufficient evidence that there is a massive conspiracy by the government and mass media. They are trying to conceal the truth from the general public that the aliens have landed. Some even believe that the U.S. government has signed a treaty with the aliens.

To skeptics, Roswell is a classic example of what D.H. Rawcliffe called retrospective falsification. An extraordinary story is told, then retold with embellishments and remodeled with favorable points emphasized while unfavorable ones are dropped. False witnesses put in their two cents, such as mortician Glen Dennis (Gildenberg 2003). In the case of Roswell, we also have a few unreliable characters who add their delusions, such as Whitley Strieber, Budd Hopkins and John Mack (see the alien abduction entry). There is also Robert Spencer Carr, the high school graduate who liked to be called "Professor Carr." Carr is a hero in the UFO literature, but his stories of flying saucers and alien creatures were all delusions. His son has written: "I am so very sorry that my father's pathological prevarication has turned out to be the foundation on which such a monstrous mountain of falsehoods has been heaped" (Carr 1997). It was that mountain of falsehoods that became part of the UFO memory, fixating conviction in a remarkable tale. It happened at Fatima (during a time when the only aliens thought to be visiting our planet were messengers from some god) and it happened at Roswell. One might think, however, that unlike the belief in our Lady of Fatima and other apparitions from the supernatural world, Roswell might be settled some day since it involves testable hypotheses and refutable claims. Don't count on it. UFO enthusiasts are every bit as devoted to their belief system as religious devotees are to theirs. Evidence and rational argument are of little concern to those who consider science fiction to be a wiser guide than science, logic and reasonable probability.

[DONTEATUS]

Well ITs all in the way one Looks at it right ? Some times you feel like a Nut ! Now where did I remember that from ? JPL ? an old tune on the tube ? I guess ITs going to take a real Alien Landing to change everyone Idea !

Guess we bette set up our chairs and pop a few Cold ones !

[psyche101]

My best guess is that Newton was just saying what Gen. Ramey ordered him to say, and that Marcel and DuBose went along with it because they were also under orders. I think it bothered them, though, and years later Marcel and DuBose stated that the wreckage had nothing to do with what was found at the Roswell crash site. Even Ramey was under orders from Washington for that matter, basically to give the media and the public this balloon story.

But I am not talking about what Newton said, I am wondering why if the materials was switched that Jesse Marcel would attempt to convince Irving Newton that the debris on the floor was alien. Many say it is switched, and I am not arguing for or against that, what I find perplexing is that Marcel tried to convince Newton that the wreckage we have all seen is alien.

[TheMacGuffin]

The likelihood that Roswell is a reconstruction involving many events over many years is supported by the fact that Roswell was ignored by UFOlogists until Charles Berlitz and William Moore published a book on the subject in 1980, more than thirty years after the event.

As I said before, Roswell was long forgotten until Jesse Marcel came forward and started saying that it was interplanetary. That was thirty years after the event, although a few people had mentioned it in the 1950s and 1960s, like Frank Edwards.

I would contend that there would have been no investigation of Roswell at all without Marcel's story.

[TheMacGuffin]

UFO buffs trust Berlitz and others with fantastic stories based on 30-year-old memories. That the government made errors and was inconsistent is taken as sufficient evidence that there is a massive conspiracy by the government and mass media. They are trying to conceal the truth from the general public that the aliens have landed. Some even believe that the U.S. government has signed a treaty with the aliens.

They haven't just "made errors", either, but have lied and lied and lied about this case, repeatedly and deliberately, and have been caught in those lies. Project Mogul was just one more lie. Now these lies are so clumsy and dumb that it seems that they almost want to keep the story going for some reason, or maybe they just figure that they public and media are so inert that they'll believe just about anything.

Well, as Lincoln said, you can't foll all of the people all of the time, just some of the time,

Why couldn't they even find the original reports of Jesse Marcel and others who were on the scene if it confirms the official version about a balloon crash?

[TheMacGuffin]

But I am not talking about what Newton said, I am wondering why if the materials was switched that Jesse Marcel would attempt to convince Irving Newton that the debris on the floor was alien. Many say it is switched, and I am not arguing for or against that, what I find perplexing is that Marcel tried to convince Newton that the wreckage we have all seen is alien.

That's what Newton said, too, but according to Marcel he was ordered by Gen. Ramey to keep his mouth shut and go along with the cover story.

[psyche101]

That's what Newton said, too, but according to Marcel he was ordered by Gen. Ramey to keep his mouth shut and go along with the cover story.

But Marcel would not be keeping his mouth shut, and he was the one calling a RAWIN an Alien design. Why he did that remains to be seen as far as I know.

[lost_shaman]

A question I have for both of you, if the material Irving Newton looked at aka the photographed material was not the real deal, why would Marcel try to convince Newton that what Newton was looking at was the debris he had collected?

My best guess is that it was part of his role to play in the Intel operation. Newton may have known good and well that the exact same Balloons and RAWIN targets were being flown just down the street, so it may have been important to try and convince him Marcel had brought this material from NM.

Just think, chosing Newton, a weatherman, is fishy right off the bat when there were personell operating a RADAR and flying these exact balloons and RAWIN targets just down the street. Newton in his regular duties may have flown the balloons (Neoprene PiBal balloons), but RAWIN targets are useless unless you have a RADAR to bounce RADAR signals off of them.

Edited August 14, 2012 by lost_shaman

[TheMacGuffin]

But Marcel would not be keeping his mouth shut, and he was the one calling a RAWIN an Alien design. Why he did that remains to be seen as far as I know.

Marcel did keep quiet for 30 years, at least until Stanton Friedman found him. No one in the UFO field had ever heard of Marcel before that, but he finally decided to tell what he knew when he was a really old guy and in poor health. He never believed that the actual wreckage had anything to do with balloons, and neither did Thomas DuBose, who also talked about Roswell only when he was very elderly. They received orders from Washington directly to kill off the Roswell story and media interest in UFOs.

There were people at the base, like the provost Edwin Elsley, who received orders directly from President Truman not to discuss the crash at Roswell, and even to take a personal oath to that effect. I spent a long time in the military and I know what it is to get an order to keep your mouth shut about this, that or the other thing (although interestingly I never received any such formal order about UFOs at any time) but to have the president of the United States involved in that way, and having all the generals in the Pentagon so upset, well, that's just something I've NEVER heard of before. Nothing like that.

Whatever this was, it was something really secret, but it had nothing to do with the Mogul balloons. That wreckage from the crash site was flown somewhere else, and was never even in Ramey's office at all.

There is absolutely no paper trail of any kind of these events, not even a basic report about guys who went to the crash site and then brought what they found back to the base. If you know the military at all like I do, then you also know that there would have been such written reports at every level of the process. That's what the Army does--in triplicate--yet NONE of these have ever been found. Nothing.

[TheMacGuffin]

Having been in the Army, I know this is just wrong. Somewhere there should have been a report in writing from Marcel and others who went out to the crash site that simply said their commanding officer had ordered them to go somewhere, look around and report back. That happens every day, whether it has anything to do with UFOs or not. Their report would have said that they collected this debris and brought it back to the base, and the commanding officer looked at it, etc. Then there should have been a report about how it was flown somewhere else, and so on.

No records of this kind have ever been found at any level. Nothing. If they ever existed, and I am sure that they did, the Air Force would have used them to prove its Project Mogul story. In reality, however, there is not a single record of any kind that proves that theory--not one.

[lost_shaman]

Marcel did keep quiet for 30 years, at least until Stanton Friedman found him. No one in the UFO field had ever heard of Marcel before that, but he finally decided to tell what he knew when he was a really old guy and in poor health. He never believed that the actual wreckage had anything to do with balloons, and neither did Thomas DuBose, who also talked about Roswell only when he was very elderly. They received orders from Washington directly to kill off the Roswell story and media interest in UFOs.

Friedman mysteriously got Marcel's name from a News reporter. If that person had heard Marcel's story why didn't they break the story Marcel had to tell? How could that person know Marcel would tell Friedman that story? Any news reporter could have seen all the Press reports and photos in their Agency's archives and broke the story wide open themselves if they had also talked to Marcel and knew what he was saying. Sounds fishy.

Of course back then many News Agencies had lots of personnel also on the CIA payroll, so that might explain some of this.

There is also the FBI to consider. One memo says the weather balloon story was not "borne out" in communications between RAAF and Wright Field. However the FBI lost interest quickly in the story. So if they had been monitoring the communications and knew it wasn't a weather balloon then you also have to assume that they were not hearing anything about Flying Saucers either because the FBI was highly interested in the Phenomena as well at the time.

My hypothesis explains the FBI loosing it's interest quickly because the FBI would understand the idea of giving the Press a "black eye".

Edited August 14, 2012 by lost_shaman

[TheMacGuffin]

For those who doubt that the US government can keep secrets for a very long time, there were over eight million documents about the employment of Nazis in the Cold War that were only released after Congress passed a law about disclosure in 1998--the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act. Even to the present, the CIA and other agencies have hardly been fully forthcoming with all their records on this "sensitive" subject.

I have personal and professional knowledge about many subjects that have been kept secret for decades in this way, including UFOs. It would not surprise me to learn that literally millions of documents are being withheld on this subject. I think that if all the real information about aliens and UFOs is ever going to be disclosed, it will literally require an act of Congress like this one. So far, it has not even been willing to hold hearings on this subject for decades.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AxP3qq_ppk&feature=player_detailpage[/media]

Edited August 14, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[psyche101]

My best guess is that it was part of his role to play in the Intel operation. Newton may have known good and well that the exact same Balloons and RAWIN targets were being flown just down the street, so it may have been important to try and convince him Marcel had brought this material from NM.

Just think, chosing Newton, a weatherman, is fishy right off the bat when there were personell operating a RADAR and flying these exact balloons and RAWIN targets just down the street. Newton in his regular duties may have flown the balloons (Neoprene PiBal balloons), but RAWIN targets are useless unless you have a RADAR to bounce RADAR signals off of them.

I'd have to agree, I have long wondered if Marcel was mistaken and went down as one of the biggest blunders in history, or if his role in the operation kept him telling the story until he died, making him one of the most trusted military men in history.

I think all the RAWINS found in the 48 hours surrounding the incident indicates something untoward, and in that case it would be great to know you have a trained professional on site who could give out the version of events that one wanted to give.

I think your hypothesis gets stronger every time I look at it.

[psyche101]

Marcel did keep quiet for 30 years, at least until Stanton Friedman found him. No one in the UFO field had ever heard of Marcel before that, but he finally decided to tell what he knew when he was a really old guy and in poor health. He never believed that the actual wreckage had anything to do with balloons, and neither did Thomas DuBose, who also talked about Roswell only when he was very elderly. They received orders from Washington directly to kill off the Roswell story and media interest in UFOs.

That is the problem, the wreckage that Newton looked at, and was photographed was RAWIN material no doubt about it, but Marcel tried to convince Newton that it was Alien debris, when it clearly was not at all.

There were people at the base, like the provost Edwin Elsley, who received orders directly from President Truman not to discuss the crash at Roswell, and even to take a personal oath to that effect. I spent a long time in the military and I know what it is to get an order to keep your mouth shut about this, that or the other thing (although interestingly I never received any such formal order about UFOs at any time) but to have the president of the United States involved in that way, and having all the generals in the Pentagon so upset, well, that's just something I've NEVER heard of before. Nothing like that.

Honestly that seems rather strange, Considering the press releases you would think that the cover story would be what the military wanted to promote.

Whatever this was, it was something really secret, but it had nothing to do with the Mogul balloons. That wreckage from the crash site was flown somewhere else, and was never even in Ramey's office at all.

I am not entirely convinced the incident had no balloon involved, but regardless I find the crash site superfluous to the conclusion. There just is too many conflicting stories to take one over the other. Nothing can be proven about the crash site without allowing personal opinion to bias the outcome, so I do not bother with the crash site too much these days. Balloon or no balloon I think there is still plenty to rationalise.

There is absolutely no paper trail of any kind of these events, not even a basic report about guys who went to the crash site and then brought what they found back to the base. If you know the military at all like I do, then you also know that there would have been such written reports at every level of the process. That's what the Army does--in triplicate--yet NONE of these have ever been found. Nothing.

Could this be part of the documents legally destroyed that the GAO draft report claims were destroyed illegally?

Edited August 15, 2012 by psyche101

[psyche101]

For those who doubt that the US government can keep secrets for a very long time, there were over eight million documents about the employment of Nazis in the Cold War that were only released after Congress passed a law about disclosure in 1998--the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act. Even to the present, the CIA and other agencies have hardly been fully forthcoming with all their records on this "sensitive" subject.

That is very interesting, I will have to look that up. Do you know what crimes are pertained to?

I have personal and professional knowledge about many subjects that have been kept secret for decades in this way, including UFOs. It would not surprise me to learn that literally millions of documents are being withheld on this subject. I think that if all the real information about aliens and UFOs is ever going to be disclosed, it will literally require an act of Congress like this one. So far, it has not even been willing to hold hearings on this subject for decades.

The problem I have with that is that this is certainly true for the many older cases we are discussing, but what about today? I do believe that private Enterprise and the amateur community is perfectly capable of breaking open such a massive secret. The Government is furnished with the goods from private enterprise, and we have some curious people out there. The food chain must be very long to ET, that there is no chinks in it I find amazing enough, but how could the rest of the world be kept in the dark when home people have large telescopes and large radio telescope arrays in their backyards on real time happenings here and now? I have seen some of the smaller experiments on the net, such as messing with Tesla coils and so forth, and we have thousands of people out there who believe they are on the brink of perpetual motion, people are not afraid to "have a go" and there are no restrictions to stop the general public going out right now and following up current events, but currently the UFO scene has dried up, and one cannot help but notice the rise in skepticism alongside this decline. They seem to be almost in proportion.

Why can nobody have their own "Blue Book" running? If what we see on the UFOlogy websites is the best we can do, it beggars belief that the Government managed to ascertain so much more with lesser technology and fewer resources than that which is available to hobbyists today in around 25 years from start to finish. The amateur community has no such pressure, and nobody to report to or give them orders. If there is something happening, how does the larger part of the world manage to remain ignorant?

I have never understood why the Government is the be all end all, I think we are an intelligent enough species to look for ourselves and not have to rely on recollections. That each case is so vague and enigmatic is in itself a question I think.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

Roswell has been completely beaten to death with a big club,and still people try to squeeze more blood from it.

Time to get over it and put it to rest with the rest of the hoo-ha......

[Kludge808]

Hi, Psyche. Been a while.

I am not entirely convinced the incident had no balloon involved, but regardless I find the crash site superfluous to the conclusion. There just is too many conflicting stories to take one over the other. Nothing can be proven about the crash site without allowing personal opinion to bias the outcome, so I do not bother with the crash site too much these days. Balloon or no balloon I think there is still plenty to rationalise.

The only thing that can be said about it is that something happened there. Unfortunately that was 65 years ago and the trail has definitely grown cold. This leaves supposition and various takes on a number of different people's statements which themselves are contradictory. But it all goes back to 30 years after the fact and Marcel's statements then.

Could this be part of the documents legally destroyed that the GAO draft report claims were destroyed illegally?

Whether the destruction was legal or illegal (I'm prone to go with the latter) is a moot point now. They're no longer available and apparently no one made personal copies of them for butt covering purposes.

[TheMacGuffin]

That is very interesting, I will have to look that up. Do you know what crimes are pertained to?

They were referring to Arthur Rudolf and the other rocket scientists at Dora-Nordhausen, who were building the V-2 rockets with slave labor; people like Klaus Barbie and other SS and Gestapo types who had been involved with every kind of war crime; and then scientists like Kurt Blome, Hubertus Strughold and many others, who had conducted medical experiments in the concentration camps. In short, just about any and every time of war criminal might get a free pass if they had some useful scientific, intelligence or military knowledge.

[psyche101]

Hi, Psyche. Been a while.

Gidday Kludge!

Too long mate

The only thing that can be said about it is that something happened there. Unfortunately that was 65 years ago and the trail has definitely grown cold. This leaves supposition and various takes on a number of different people's statements which themselves are contradictory. But it all goes back to 30 years after the fact and Marcel's statements then.

I agree that something happened, and as you say, the trail has not only grown cold, but also grown over with many intertwining tales of intrigue, such is the nature of the Roswell tale, however this is why I like to focus on the scant few documents from the time frame that do exist, and from what I have seen, I think Lost Shamans Intel Ops hypothesis has legs like Rhonda Burchmore. The Twining Memo is to me a smoking gun that the USAF wanted the general public and press out of the way so they could have a good close look at the phenomena. When you put that next to the 3 other RAWINS found in 48 hours within the Roswell incident, and then the possible connection that LS is working on with Grant, it's looking pretty solid.

Whether the destruction was legal or illegal (I'm prone to go with the latter) is a moot point now. They're no longer available and apparently no one made personal copies of them for butt covering purposes.

Legal mate, WG Siebert challeneged the GAO claim that the documents were destroyed illegally, and he defended the action with Paragraph 53b of the Air Force Manual 181-5 [13] which clearly states that records "accumulated at or below wing level will be scheduled as one item and destroyed after two years"

But then again, Congresman Schiff deliberately released the draft report to the public, not the final which I believe was corrected on this point, obviously to create the controversy.

[TheMacGuffin]

That is very interesting, I will have to look that up. Do you know what crimes are pertained to?

I have never understood why the Government is the be all end all, I think we are an intelligent enough species to look for ourselves and not have to rely on recollections. That each case is so vague and enigmatic is in itself a question I think.

I do think that amateurs and outsiders have been trying to break the UFO cover up for decades--with the help of some insiders, including some generals and presidents. There's nothing knew about that and they have had some successes, although it's been very difficult.