Roswell: Two Crashes, Not One

[bmk1245]

Really big craft would almost certainly be constructed in orbit, with the parts ferried out to them; just like our tentative efforts so far at constructing space stations.

Another thought: If the craft that are reported were robotic or remotely piloted drones (like our probes), then it mightn't seem too far fetched that they'd hit problems every now and then, would it? If that happened, they'd more than likely write it off and shrug and say "oh well, another few billion srggszxsrzzxs* down the drain*, ah well, the taxpayer'll pay for it", just like we do. It probably wouldn't be worth, even if it was possible, sending a rescue mission just to retrieve a drone.

* The Zeta reticulan currency

Robotic drones... OK, why bodies had been reported(?) then? Or "crew watching/repairing something"? Once again, seeing our progress in every area (medicine, flight, space exploration, etc), alien probing/steeling water/crashing/etc seem unlikely. But hey, that just my view.

[bmk1245]

Quite a few missions to Mars have been lost over the years, and even one of the Apollo missions to the moon almost blew up. Unless you have perfect people and perfect equipment, mistakes will be made, accidents will happen.

We were and are just infants in this area.

BTW, how many of you still using old PCs/HDDS from 90s? Mine at work - 486 - still running and still using (!) HDD from ol' 286 - 20MB - (and we would have used 286 if not speed issue... kinda joke nowadays). And no freaking failure.

[Space Commander Travis]

Robotic drones... OK, why bodies had been reported(?) then? Or "crew watching/repairing something"? Once again, seeing our progress in every area (medicine, flight, space exploration, etc), alien probing/steeling water/crashing/etc seem unlikely. But hey, that just my view.

Because there's been a lot of colourful embroidery done over the years. (The "bodies" at Roswell was only a fairly recent innovation). And it doesn't seema t all unlikely that a probe might crash every now and then; like I said, it probably wouldn't be such a catastrophe than if a manned craft did, would it, so it'd be very sensible when exploring strange new worlds. You'd only really need manned craft when you want to officially make contact and communicate with the natives.

[bmk1245]

Because there's been a lot of colourful embroidery done over the years. (The "bodies" at Roswell was only a fairly recent innovation). And it doesn't seema t all unlikely that a probe might crash every now and then; like I said, it probably wouldn't be such a catastrophe than if a manned craft did, would it, so it'd be very sensible when exploring strange new worlds.

If that would had been our drone, I would concure, but we are talking about far, far, far... more advanced civilization(s)

[...] You'd only really need manned craft when you want to officially make contact and communicate with the natives.

OK,. if ETs will make contact in the form of reporting 9/11 (mind you not blowing, not destroying anything), when everyone has the opportunity to see/watch event from different angles/different sources/channels

then I will say "You are my gods, kill all humans, spare me,... I'm good guy..." Damn...Did I had to say that ?

[TheMacGuffin]

For that matter, a couple of our space shuttles have blown up, and these represent some of the most advanced and complicated technology that we have, at least the publicly-known technology (On the classified level we almost certainly have far more advanced things.)

But traveling in space is hazardous and a lot of things can go wrong--unexpected things. Even in the military, where people are always taught to expect surprises and the unexpected, things often go wrong. I just don't think we are living in some kind of perfect universe.

[Kludge808]

Doesn't fly. Younglings doing the most (or ist it?) important part?

Younglings doing the part for which they are most qualified. I don't know if it's still true - it was when I served aboard the USS HORNET - but the captain of an aircraft carrier had to have started as a pilot then work his was up through squadron commander etc to CAG and eventually to captain of a carrier of his own. Same with the admiral of a Carrier Task Group. (I think they had to be current & carrier qualified too but that may not be valid.) The "younglings" fly the aircraft carried. The captain had/has the greater responsibility of the ship and all serving aboard but his job was and is primarily to position the ship so the aircraft can fulfill their mission.

Commanding a mothership would be no different. Promotion brings added responsibility from scout etc pilot on up to taking command of a mothership. The mothership commanders have the experience behind them to handle them while the less experienced pilots perform lesser tasks, none any less important than any other but rather just at different levels in the chain of command.

Although I agree, no technology is immune to accidents, but how many "reported" crashes do we have? Its like crash (suicide) site on Earth.

The figures go back to that same 95% as having an explanation including the infamous and highly unpopular weather balloons as well as outright hoaxes. I'm prone to up the mundane answers for crashes to 98% but even then it leaves 2% unanswered. In every one of those 2% there has been government involvement to some degree or another so whether the objects involved were alien or man made is still left to speculation ... or it is outside of government circles. And they tend not to talk a lot, y'know?

Fancy hood cover (nitinol like), although flexible, but with little support frame (as per findings in the crash site). It would had made whatever color salad (intestines mixed with consumed food) inside the saucer if alienz had no power over inertia ("power", which is claimed by other observations made over the years in many reports), and, if that saucer would have been trying to make high g maneuvers. If they had "inertia suppressing" powers, why, on earth, use fancy materials on the hood?

Since I have no clue how they operate, let's take a hypothetical case. It's as good as any other but it is one to which I've given some thought over the years. (It also is part of my idea base for future SF writing so I do have sort of a "vested interest" in it. ) What if the outer hull were part of the drive as well as the inertial damping system? Since it's part of the inertial damping system, the requirement for an inner structure beyond that required to maintain shape when the inertial damping field is reduce or shut down is pretty much nullified. The Nitinol-like alloy in the hull may have been required for those fields to work. Just a thought ...

Are you sure? Overconfidence I do smell

So, where is the light source in the first picture?

Let's take both pics at the same time. With the light source at 10:30, the first pic is a dome with a crater in it while the second is a crater with a dome. With the light source at 4:30, they're reversed. Simple.

But I still can't handle riddles!

[DONTEATUS]

Can anyone tell me just why this keep`s getting air time ? THeres been no proof what so ever ! Ever ! End of story !

[bmk1245]

For that matter, a couple of our space shuttles have blown up, and these represent some of the most advanced and complicated technology that we have, at least the publicly-known technology (On the classified level we almost certainly have far more advanced things.) [...]

Again, you are looking from our chickenyard. Look at the Soyuz. How many mishaps Russkies had with that? I don't go with other projects, nevertheless, Russians know how to put people into orbit with least casualties.

[...]

But traveling in space is hazardous and a lot of things can go wrong--unexpected things. Even in the military, where people are always taught to expect surprises and the unexpected, things often go wrong. I just don't think we are living in some kind of perfect universe.

We are talking 'bout way more experienced ETs(unless they are complete morons).Its not 'bout our harrasing policemen, not our military folks. Dam... Alienz shouldn't be able (allowed, for that matter) to fly outside their atmosphere/hemisphere, not to mention polluting our orbits (already occupied) with their stuff, and ... no to mention crashing in Roswell, etc.

[bmk1245]

Can anyone tell me just why this keep`s getting air time ? THeres been no proof what so ever ! Ever ! End of story !

For fun... And keep'n smoker alive...Just for the sake of TX BBQ...

[E. L. Wisty]

Can we possibly put Roswell to bed once and for all? There's really very little mystery here. One little pint that you're all missing: since this event happened within a week or two of the invention of the "flying saucer" craze, people in general - and USAF officers in particular - mostly didn't think of them as starships. They were terrified that they might be high-performance Russian bombers capable of nuking the USA. Therefore they expected that any debris of unknown origin but still obviously manufactured by humans would solve the mystery.

If you look at the original witness descriptions of the Roswell crash debris, that was very briefly described by one USAF spokesman as a "crashed flying disc", people seem to be saying that, yes, it was balloon-like, but more substantial than the standard weather-balloon debris subsequently exhibited. This ties in perfectly with Project Mogul. It was a top secret balloon array carrying an instrument package designed to monitor Russian nuclear tests by way of radioactive particles in the stratosphere. It was made of substances such as industrial strength polythene sheeting that, in 1947, could be manufactured only by the US Army, and given what they were used for, were known about only on a need-to-know basis. A really large balloon made of some bizarre, unnaturally tough plastic-like substance crashed, but the wreckage of another much more conventional balloon was hastily substituted. That's all the original Roswell witnesses were saying - it's exactly what would have happened if Project Mogul had crashed!

The whole thing about the alien bodies and so on doesn't get a mention until about 30 years later, at which point Charles Berlitz, the guy who more or less invented the Bermuda Triangle, suddenly revived it. He is not the most reliable source of information in the world. And lo and behold, as soon as an author who isn't too scrupulous starts offering money for 30-year-old memories so long as they mention space aliens, plenty of people remembered them just fine!

It should be added that the whole "double crash" scenario derives from the fact that absolutely nothing in the original story mentioned alien bodies, or any debris sufficiently substantial to possibly be a starship. So all of a sudden, it turned out that the ship merely bounced at Roswell, shedding a little bit of flimsy outer casing, and then crashed some miles distant. And nobody mentioned this for 30 years.

Also, all the reasons ever given for the Roswell "saucer" crashing in the first place are pure bull****. They range from radar-jamming - a navigational hazard well known to WWII-era American aircraft, and fully compensated for by them, so probably not a major difficulty for ETs unless they're half-witted - to "being struck by lightning". It should also be noted that the material the craft was supposedly made of was simultaneously completely impervious to all destructive forces, including point-blank gunfire, and tore into tiny bits when it hit Texas. Frankly, this is poorly thought-out ****e.

And why would the US government bother with the Apollo program if they'd been back-engineering a flying saucer since 1947?

[TheMacGuffin]

Again, you are looking from our chickenyard. Look at the Soyuz. How many mishaps Russkies had with that? I don't go with other projects, nevertheless, Russians know how to put people into orbit with least casualties.

We are talking 'bout way more experienced ETs(unless they are complete morons).Its not 'bout our harrasing policemen, not our military folks. Dam... Alienz shouldn't be able (allowed, for that matter) to fly outside their atmosphere/hemisphere, not to mention polluting our orbits (already occupied) with their stuff, and ... no to mention crashing in Roswell, etc.

Since you don't even believe they're real, I'm not sure how you can make any statements at all about them. If you ask me why they crash, I don't know. I don't know if they can be shot down either, although I know for sure we have fired at them many times, and there are some stories that they have been hit. They are not perfect or immortal.

As for the Soviets, they have had deaths, accidents and mishaps in space, only those were kept quiet.

[DONTEATUS]

For fun... And keep'n smoker alive...Just for the sake of TX BBQ...

Now thats the most logical thing Ive read all Day !

[DONTEATUS]

For fun... And keep'n smoker alive...Just for the sake of TX BBQ...

Well ITs always good to have back up B.B.Q !

[Kludge808]

Well ITs always good to have back up B.B.Q !

You call that a BBQ? Our luaus are only warming up with something that small.

[TheMacGuffin]

Can we possibly put Roswell to bed once and for all? There's really very little mystery here. One little pint that you're all missing: since this event happened within a week or two of the invention of the "flying saucer" craze, people in general - and USAF officers in particular - mostly didn't think of them as starships. They were terrified that they might be high-performance Russian bombers capable of nuking the USA. Therefore they expected that any debris of unknown origin but still obviously manufactured by humans would solve the mystery.

That sounds plausible, but the heart of the Roswell case has always been that we had all this witnesses coming forward decades later like Marcel, Exon and DuBose who insisted that what they found was not from earth. I've already talked this case to death, but without those military witnesses there never would have been any Roswell case. There couldn't have been.

We have virtually no documentation about it, not even documents that would have proved it was a balloon. That's a problem.

[TheMacGuffin]

I've already mentioned everything I know about this Col. French character, who was a career Air Force officer and well-known as a UFO investigator and debunker even back in the 1960s. He was telling the truth about that at least, and we can prove it.

[Space Commander Travis]

Again, you are looking from our chickenyard. Look at the Soyuz. How many mishaps Russkies had with that? I don't go with other projects, nevertheless, Russians know how to put people into orbit with least casualties.

We are talking 'bout way more experienced ETs(unless they are complete morons).Its not 'bout our harrasing policemen, not our military folks. Dam... Alienz shouldn't be able (allowed, for that matter) to fly outside their atmosphere/hemisphere, not to mention polluting our orbits (already occupied) with their stuff, and ... no to mention crashing in Roswell, etc.

I can only presume this line of argument comes from the idea that technology is infallible. i'm not sure how many people involved in dealing with technology in everyday life would concur with that, You don't seem to be willing to consider that while they may be way more experienced, the environment in which they operate when visiting new planets would be new to them, unless they really do come from an exactly Earth-like homeworld. Surely you must agree that when exploring somewhere new, there'd be a bit of a learning curve? it doesn't matter how many millions of years they might be advacned on us; that's irrelevant.

[lost_shaman]

I can only presume this line of argument comes from the idea that technology is infallible. i'm not sure how many people involved in dealing with technology in everyday life would concur with that, You don't seem to be willing to consider that while they may be way more experienced, the environment in which they operate when visiting new planets would be new to them, unless they really do come from an exactly Earth-like homeworld. Surely you must agree that when exploring somewhere new, there'd be a bit of a learning curve? it doesn't matter how many millions of years they might be advacned on us; that's irrelevant.

Hey 747400,

I completely disagree with you here. If hypothetical Aliens did actually visit Earth from another Solar system then imagine all the obsticals they had to overcome to get here only to crash. They would have to travel out of their own Solar system and avoid Micro-meteors, Astroids, Astroid belts, Ort clouds just to get to Interstellar Space and then travel light years only to re-enter our solar system and avoid all the same things again only to get here and crash in Earth's Atmosphere.

It just doesn't make much sense. Earth's Atmosphere is basically the friendliest tiny bit of Space an E.T. Spacecraft would be during it's entire journey! All they would have to do while visiting Earth, is not deliberately fly into the Planet! You know after avoiding everything else on the trip to get here.

Edited August 21, 2012 by lost_shaman

[bmk1245]

Younglings doing the part for which they are most qualified. I don't know if it's still true - it was when I served aboard the USS HORNET - but the captain of an aircraft carrier had to have started as a pilot then work his was up through squadron commander etc to CAG and eventually to captain of a carrier of his own. Same with the admiral of a Carrier Task Group. (I think they had to be current & carrier qualified too but that may not be valid.) The "younglings" fly the aircraft carried. The captain had/has the greater responsibility of the ship and all serving aboard but his job was and is primarily to position the ship so the aircraft can fulfill their mission.

Commanding a mothership would be no different. Promotion brings added responsibility from scout etc pilot on up to taking command of a mothership. The mothership commanders have the experience behind them to handle them while the less experienced pilots perform lesser tasks, none any less important than any other but rather just at different levels in the chain of command.

[...]

But what about important missions. Wouldn't more experienced be selected for that (as younglings I see less experienced pilots, not the age)?

[...]

The figures go back to that same 95% as having an explanation including the infamous and highly unpopular weather balloons as well as outright hoaxes. I'm prone to up the mundane answers for crashes to 98% but even then it leaves 2% unanswered. In every one of those 2% there has been government involvement to some degree or another so whether the objects involved were alien or man made is still left to speculation ... or it is outside of government circles. And they tend not to talk a lot, y'know?

[...]

If only we would had all data required, 100% would had been explained.

[...]

Since I have no clue how they operate, let's take a hypothetical case. It's as good as any other but it is one to which I've given some thought over the years. (It also is part of my idea base for future SF writing so I do have sort of a "vested interest" in it. ) What if the outer hull were part of the drive as well as the inertial damping system? Since it's part of the inertial damping system, the requirement for an inner structure beyond that required to maintain shape when the inertial damping field is reduce or shut down is pretty much nullified. The Nitinol-like alloy in the hull may have been required for those fields to work. Just a thought ...

[...]

SciFi ngly speaking you have something here.

[...]

Let's take both pics at the same time. With the light source at 10:30, the first pic is a dome with a crater in it while the second is a crater with a dome. With the light source at 4:30, they're reversed. Simple.

But I still can't handle riddles!

It wasn't a riddle, just an example of fragility of our perception. Edited August 21, 2012 by bmk1245

[bmk1245]

Well ITs always good to have back up B.B.Q !

Damn...

bmk runs in to the mall looking for fresh meat..

[bmk1245]

I can only presume this line of argument comes from the idea that technology is infallible. i'm not sure how many people involved in dealing with technology in everyday life would concur with that, You don't seem to be willing to consider that while they may be way more experienced, the environment in which they operate when visiting new planets would be new to them, unless they really do come from an exactly Earth-like homeworld. Surely you must agree that when exploring somewhere new, there'd be a bit of a learning curve? it doesn't matter how many millions of years they might be advacned on us; that's irrelevant.

LS put it very nicely... As he had been reading my mind... Edited August 21, 2012 by bmk1245

[Space Commander Travis]

Hey 747400,

I completely disagree with you here. If hypothetical Aliens did actually visit Earth from another Solar system then imagine all the obsticals they had to overcome to get here only to crash. They would have to travel out of their own Solar system and avoid Micro-meteors, Astroids, Astroid belts, Ort clouds just to get to Interstellar Space and then travel light years only to re-enter our solar system and avoid all the same things again only to get here and crash in Earth's Atmosphere.

It just doesn't make much sense. Earth's Atmosphere is basically the friendliest tiny bit of Space an E.T. Spacecraft would be during it's entire journey! All they would have to do while visiting Earth, is not deliberately fly into the Planet! You know after avoiding everything else on the trip to get here.

the mothership (if you want to call it that) would come the vast distances of space, but to explore planets they'd use smaller scouts or drones, wouldn't they. These would be far more likely to come to grief from time to time, owing to unfamiliar conditions or whatever. Besides, they might not even have to come immeasureable distances, if they had a base somewhere within a convenient distances (say, in the vicinity of Mars or whatever, which would be just like a flight across the Atlantic for them, I'm sure).

[lost_shaman]

the mothership (if you want to call it that) would come the vast distances of space, but to explore planets they'd use smaller scouts or drones, wouldn't they. These would be far more likely to come to grief from time to time, owing to unfamiliar conditions or whatever. Besides, they might not even have to come immeasureable distances, if they had a base somewhere within a convenient distances (say, in the vicinity of Mars or whatever, which would be just like a flight across the Atlantic for them, I'm sure).

Ok, but I think that's like saying they fuel their ship's on Fairy Dust and that they eat Manna from God once a week to survive! I mean it only really makes sense in terms of a fictional story. As I pointed out the Earth's Atomosphere is hands down the most stable and safest place an Alien Spacecraft could find itself.

ETA: And for that matter New Mexico in summer is probably one of the safest places on the Planet to be flying!

Edited August 21, 2012 by lost_shaman

[bmk1245]

the mothership (if you want to call it that) would come the vast distances of space, but to explore planets they'd use smaller scouts or drones, wouldn't they. These would be far more likely to come to grief from time to time, owing to unfamiliar conditions or whatever. Besides, they might not even have to come immeasureable distances, if they had a base somewhere within a convenient distances (say, in the vicinity of Mars or whatever, which would be just like a flight across the Atlantic for them, I'm sure).

By some accounts "motherships" (twice the size of aircraft carrier, etc) do enter our atmosphere. And if you ETs have the technologies safely wander through the more hostile environment, it would be safe to assume that smaller scouts or drones would be 'resilient' as well.

On the other hand... If their ships would had been (are) controlled by mind, and if they had sniffed some local weed, crash would be a possibility.

[Lilly]

On the other hand... If their ships would had been (are) controlled by mind, and if they had sniffed some local weed, crash would be a possibility.

Can you just imagine the headline there: "Blazed Aliens Crash in NM Desert".