[Merged] Gobekli Tepe

[lightly]

woops!.... sorry

Edited September 19, 2012 by lightly

[Macroramphosis]

Abramelin, are you able to tell us whether the timeline of the "uprising" saw a cessation of the sacrificial cult afterwards ? Or is the time-scale and testing too distant to reconcile such a deliberate question ?

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, are you able to tell us whether the timeline of the "uprising" saw a cessation of the sacrificial cult afterwards ? Or is the time-scale and testing too distant to reconcile such a deliberate question ?

Difficult to say; as you may have read, the habit/culture of human sacrifice later spread southwards into what much later became Canaan, Phoenicia and so on.

I think the problem is that not all layers of all the mentioned sites have been excavated and/or searched.

So because of that I could happily speculate about what could have been going on back then: revolution, change, war with invaders or what you said, a civil uprising.

The German site I linked to in post 29

http://www.unexplain...15#entry4464072

suggests a more egalitarian society after the 'change'. But it is possible they will find a new site, just a bit younger but also nearby and belonging to the same culture, that suggests human sacrifice continued.

.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I find it kind of interesting to notice you will never read about this practice of human sacrifice in connection with the Göbekli culture, though, as I have shown (Çayönü & Nevalı Çori), there is definite proof it took place.

Maybe their intention is that we all should be stuck with that image of a Biblical Eden in our heads, as several publications/articles suggest.

To attract Jewish, Christian and Muslim tourists?

[Macroramphosis]

What a fascinating read from the German site, Abramelin. Thanks for that. Some absolutely mind-boggling facts about that era, the town and its inhabitants. It almost deserves a thread of its own. I find the complete lack of violence, and by perception, crime, incredible. Interesting that in that particular archeological instance they find no remnants of human sacrifice as well.

It sounds truly utopian.......feasts, dancing, no war and no violence. I notice there is no mention of religion. Is that somewhere else on the site ?

[Abramelin]

What a fascinating read from the German site, Abramelin. Thanks for that. Some absolutely mind-boggling facts about that era, the town and its inhabitants. It almost deserves a thread of its own. I find the complete lack of violence, and by perception, crime, incredible. Interesting that in that particular archeological instance they find no remnants of human sacrifice as well.

It sounds truly utopian.......feasts, dancing, no war and no violence. I notice there is no mention of religion. Is that somewhere else on the site ?

Macro, I don't know if you can also read the German text, but with a title like "Urkommunismus", or "primitive communism", it is not very likely they will say much about religion...

http://www.urkommunismus.de/

http://www.urkommunismus.de/catalhueyuek_en.html#komm_ges

But no, I haven't found anything yet about religion on that site.

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Edited September 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Macroramphosis]

Hi Abramelin. No, I did not read the German text. Although my French and Portuguese is pretty good, my knowledge of German lies in the realm of non-existent to doubtful, with a couple of skiing related words like Ausgang and Eingang as my sole contributions towards multi-cutural understanding.

I must say though that I thought the title of that piece related more towards the civilization discussed more than the beliefs of the authors ? Or am I wrong ?

[Abramelin]

Sorry, I got a bit distracted by a discussion about religion elsewhere on this site...

=

Although I like the German site - it gives a lot of info not generally known - it is my impression the writers somewhat idealize the Göbekli culture.

If as much is known about this culture as, say, the Sumerian civilization, then maybe they are right after all. But that will be decades in the future,

It still is a nice idea though, an egalitarian culture at the end of the last ice age. But proof is wanting.

[Wookietim]

I, for one, am utterly fascinated by this discovery. It pushes the dating of human civilization pretty far back and makes me wonder if it may not be a lesson for the present civilization... After all, here we have what seems to be a pretty advanced, for it;s time, civilization that nobody remembered until it's ruins were dug up. It flourished for a long time and then vanished from records...

I think we could read that as a warning to current civilizations - we aren't permanent and in a couple thousand years people may only speak of the United States in terms of vague memories and ruins. We might think we are permanent but it appears no human civilization is... or even civilization itself.

And beyond that this discovery is just absolutely fascinating in itself. These people were obviously pretty good at what they were doing and were obviously advanced so it presents a puzzle to figure out - why did they fall, why did they cover their city up and where did they go?

[lightly]

I wonder if maybe the culture faded as the climate changed? The flora changed and the hunted animals got scarce as the area got drier? Maybe a smaller more agriculturally adept population began living nearer the tributaries and Tigris and Euphrates ?

Did the significant culture there dry up as the area did? Do the timelines match ? If not, nevermind

[zenfahr]

The OP like any forum user, can do a search function to be sure whether a particular subject is discussed before. it would save him/her and the other forum users time, if the subject had been discussed before or is being discussed.

Thats what i have told him/her.

Whats so dickish about telling him/her that??

I find that funny, if you are reading and discussing topics here on UM.... you are already wasting time. my two cents.

[Abramelin]

I find that funny, if you are reading and discussing topics here on UM.... you are already wasting time. my two cents.

Wasting your time, yep. But that's because some people are very slow learners, so they better find another 'hobby' that suits them better.

Like finding the true source of quotes they use.

Let me help you with that one: "William Blake". Tell that to your eagle, heh.

.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Although the German site suggests an egalitarian society for the Göbekli Tepe culture (or the society that came after the 'revolt'), others think differently:

The planners and builders of Gobeklitepe still remain a big mystery, and no one has been able to crack the code so far. Archeologists believe that the tail end of Hunter- Gatherer societies were organized in a shamanic way, suggesting that some individuals among them were more developed, possessed a higher intellect, and developed a calling for contact with the hereafter and as such became religious leaders, who presided over - and organized - their clans and societies. But the question here is: “Did they maintain their shamanic characteristics, or were they propelled to the divine and powerful level of priesthood, as seen later in the Orient as well as ancient Egypt?”

Those T-shaped pillars are 3 to 6 meters high in size, and weigh anything between 40 to 60 tonnes each. Even with today’s technology one would need very specialized equipment to move that stuff. In human terms it is roughly estimated that a minimum of 500 bodies might pull it off. But in a world of chaos and self-preservation how were these people organised, and by whom? Then again, it seems somehow they knew, and were coached to achieve this monumental task of transporting and sequencing these megaliths in specific order. There had to be quarrying experts, transport specialists, planners, ritual overseers etc. According to archeologists this kind of organization could have only existed in a society which already had established a solid system and a sound hierarchy.

The hypothesis here is that Gobeklitepe is a burial site. The excavations did not get as far as the actual graves yet, but they expect to find them under the floor or behind the walls, so far untouched. It is also surmised that Gobeklitepe’s main function was primarily ritual burials, and in some lesser capacity big feasts and social gatherings.

Only time will tell… but as more and more of this fascinating discovery gets unearthed, and layers upon layers of mystery are peeled back, then perhaps we may have to readjust – or even be forced to change - our way of thinking about our ancestors and human history in general.

http://gobeklitepe.i...ho_how_why.html

And they think it could have been a burial site.

Well, from what I found, a ''death cult" using human sacrifice seems more appropriate.

+++++

EDIT:

There are those who say that is what Stonehenge was too, but without the human sacrifices.

And don't forget: the Stonehenge site was occupied many thousands of years before they started to erect those giant stones:

Archaeologists have found four, or possibly five, large Mesolithic postholes (one may have been a natural tree throw), which date to around 8000 BC, beneath the nearby modern tourist car-park. These held pine posts around 0.75 metres (2 ft 6 in) in diameter which were erected and eventually rotted in situ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge

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Edited September 21, 2012 by Abramelin

[lightly]

Interesting Abramelin. I'm wondering if the sites were buried out of Reverence... because maybe they thought the spirits of their ancestors dwelled there.. or the circles were somehow the connecting points between this world and an afterlife ? I also wonder if the animal carvings on the pillars were clan symbols .. Most or all? are depictions of predatory animals / Hunters.

These things could have been multipurpose meeting places. like the church basement

and yes.. i DID read this part "The hypothesis here is that Gobeklitepe is a burial site."

Edited September 21, 2012 by lightly

[Abramelin]

Excavations reveal daily life of 10,000 years ago

September/20/2012

Excavations in Aşıklıhöyük have reached the bottom layer, revealing information about the first settled life that began there 10,300 years ago. The more than 80 skeletons found in the area show the approximate average lifespan of the people living there then was between 25 and 30 years.

The head of the Aşıklıhöyük excavation, Professor Mihriban Ozbasaran, said the area was the earliest-known village settlement in the Central Anatolia and Cappadocia region. Archaeological work in the area began in 1989, and has obtained a great deal of important data that sheds light on both world and Anatolian history. “With a history of 10,300 years, Aşıklıhöyük was the first village in Cappadocia and also a place that led many technological and scientific developments in the world, such as the first agricultural activities and the first brain surgery,” Ozbasaran said.

(...)

Burial traditions

Most of the skeletons found in graves at Aşıklıhöyük belong to women and children, Ozbasaran said. “It is interesting that there was a high number of deaths among children and women. Probably many deaths occurred during birth. Epidemic diseases were also prevalent. We determined that the average age of death was between 25 and 30 in Aşıklıhöyük, which is very young. A man who died between the ages of 45 and 50 had one of the longest lives.”

This year a skeleton was unearthed that had been buried in a nontraditional way, Ozbasaran said. “The dead were usually buried under the houses in the fetal position. But we found a child of six or eight years lying in a furnace, which was very different from the other 80 skeletons we have found. We are investigating whether the child died accidentally. Reports from physical anthropologists will reveal the correct answer.”

http://archaeologyne...ml#.UF3Jq67CSi0

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/excavations-reveal-daily-life-of-10000-years-ago.aspx?pageID=238&nID=30504&NewsCatID=375

.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Asikli Hoyuk - Ancient Village or Settlement in Turkey

A 10,000 year old Neolithic settlement lying in the volcanic landscape of Cappadocia, on the bank of the Melendiz river. For at least twenty generations people of Aşıklı lived in mud brick houses.

The houses had hearths and burial pits beneath the floors; in rare cases they had bins and benches. Middens and special function buildings were communal. Besides practising farming they made extensive use of wild plants and animals. (From the site information board).

Note: Obsidian bracelet reveals amazing craft skill from the eighth millennium BC

===

A 10,000 year old settlement in a lovely position. Older even than Çatalhöyük:

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=a312&file=index&do=showpic&pid=40587

[Abramelin]

Interesting Abramelin. I'm wondering if the sites were buried out of Reverence... because maybe they thought the spirits of their ancestors dwelled there.. or the circles were somehow the connecting points between this world and an afterlife ? I also wonder if the animal carvings on the pillars were clan symbols .. Most or all? are depictions of predatory animals / Hunters.

These things could have been multipurpose meeting places. like the church basement

and yes.. i DID read this part "The hypothesis here is that Gobeklitepe is a burial site."

Buried out of reverence...

If (a big if) all the Anatolian places I mentioned in this thread are related, and belonged to one culture or even one civilization.... then I doubt it was out of reverence the sites were buried....

From post 64:

"But we found a child of six or eight years lying in a furnace, which was very different from the other 80 skeletons we have found. We are investigating whether the child died accidentally. Reports from physical anthropologists will reveal the correct answer.”

Hmmm.... the child could have died accidentally.... and then you just let it lie there, in a furnace...

..

Edited September 22, 2012 by Abramelin

[lightly]

well... i dunno. Burials? / Reverence?

** i wonder too.. if sometimes spiritual veneration is mistaken for human sacrifice? A blood stained alter might be stained with animal instead of human blood? But anyway a severed head , as shown here doesn't always equate to a living sacrifice.

http://www.humanjour...hlithicEra.html

Life after death – burial chambers?

Graves were discovered at Nevali Çori, and the archaeologist Klaus Schmidt of the German Archaeological Institute of Istanbul, who has been working with his team at Göbekli Tepe for over fifteen years, is reasonably confident that burials lie somewhere in the earliest layers. His team has already found fragments of human bone in the layers of dirt that filled the complex. This leads him to suspect the pillars represent human beings and that the cult practices at this site may initially have focused on some sort of ancestor worship.

Perhaps this functioned as the burial ground for the priesthood. It is the custom of shamanic societies to bury their elders and Shamans in ground already made holy or sacred by the ritual practices that had previously gone on there, even led at one time by the person buried there.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Archeologist Ian Hodder doesn't think that Çatalhöyük was a matriarchal society, "There was a balance of power. If one's social status was of high importance in Çatalhöyük, the body and head were separated after death. The number of female and male skulls found during the excavations is almost equal."

Ancestors were obviously highly valued. Floors inside the dwellings are subdivided into discrete levels or platforms and, like the artificial wall columns, were often painted in symbolic red ochre. Sometimes up to sixty skeletons have been found underneath a floor. Bodies were flexed before burial, and often placed in baskets or wrapped in reed mats. Disarticulated bones in some graves suggest that some corpses were left in the open air for a time before the bones were gathered and buried. In some cases, graves were disturbed and the individual's head removed from the skeleton and subsequently used in ritual. Some skulls were plastered and painted with ochre to recreate human-like faces, a custom also seen in Neolithic sites in Syria and at Neolithic Jericho.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Burial Rites

Early Neolithic burial practices seem to indicate a belief in the spiritual presence and influence of deceased members of one’s group. At Tell Qaramel in northern Syria, one of the oldest known settlements (ca. 11,000 - 9650 BCE), skulls were found either in groups or alone, some plastered with clay to recreate the face, which was then painted skin-color and placed in a specific area, presumably for veneration or at least remembrance. Bodies were buried in the flex in-utero position perhaps ready to be born anew in the spirit world. Children who died young were buried intact, which leads scholars to think that adult brains may well have been eaten at death as a way to pass on the deceased’s essential qualities to the living.

another map

Edited September 23, 2012 by lightly

[lightly]

... Just thinking about the temple burials.... they were buried in pristine condition ? No defacement or pillars knocked over and such. I would think if they were buried out of malice, by an invader, they wouldn't be careful about how they buried them? ... unless out of fear? Who knows.. I hope further research is revealing .

[Abramelin]

... Just thinking about the temple burials.... they were buried in pristine condition ? No defacement or pillars knocked over and such. I would think if they were buried out of malice, by an invader, they wouldn't be careful about how they buried them? ... unless out of fear? Who knows.. I hope further research is revealing .

Like I posted before: the Göbekli stones were maybe too heavy to pull down. So people decided to 'just' bury them. Maybe they were too scared to pull the standing stones down - afraid of avenging gods and all that, superstitious as they were - and thought it was best to bury them.

Give the temple a decent grave, and be done with it.

[lightly]

ya, could be. I don't remember the source, and it might be balogney.. but someone was suggesting that the smaller T'd circles may have been slighty younger than the larger versions... one possible reason given for that was that the significance of them was fading (for whatever reason), or a suddenly much smaller population due to a possible Epidemic. ... A devastating epidemic would shake your 'faith'.

Or.. maybe your Natufians did it It will be interesting to see what else is dug up.

[Abramelin]

ya, could be. I don't remember the source, and it might be balogney.. but someone was suggesting that the smaller T'd circles may have been slighty younger than the larger versions... one possible reason given for that was that the significance of them was fading (for whatever reason), or a suddenly much smaller population due to a possible Epidemic. ... A devastating epidemic would shake your 'faith'.

Or.. maybe your Natufians did it It will be interesting to see what else is dug up.

The smaller T-shaped monoliths may have been the precursors of the larger ones of Göbekli Tepe.

Heh, as long as they don't dig up anything new, your guess is as good as mine, or anyone else's for that matter.

I am glad you brought up the Natufians.

They were still much hunter-gatherers at the time the Göblekians were settling down and create a precursor of what we like to call our modern western civilization.

The Göblekians may have captured Natufians, and sacrificed them to their ever hungry vulture god.

We are not that peaceful either, and maybe they treated hunter-gatherers the same like we have done. Just read about what our recent ancestors thought of some African tribes, or the people living in Amazonia or in Borneo and New Guinea or Australia.

'Primitives', enslave them or slaughter them.

"God is great, kill those infidels!!"

And so on.

We are a hopeless species.

.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Abramelin

[lightly]

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/baryo.pdf

^ here is a pdf on the Natufians ... i only "scanned' it a bit.. but it seemed to say the Natufians were also Hunter Gatherers and is isn't clear if they did much cultivation yet. It also talks about how and when favorable climate changes allowed for expansion from the coastal areas into the plains ... and improved living conditions helping birth agriculture.

The wet period seems to coincide with the successful period of the *Gobeklians

Also, it shows that the Natufians had their own styles of tools and weapons.. so, if their was a war.. there should be evidence of it coming up.

*** it looks like Natufian agriculture and the 'final' burial of Gobekli were both around 8000 BP?

Edited September 23, 2012 by lightly

[lightly]

been poking around .. it sounds like "Natufian" is more of a time period than a culture?

and.. again i run into a claim that constructions at Nevali Cori are smaller and less impressive with smaller T pillars.. and around 500 years younger than the excavated ones at Gobekli tepe.

[docyabut2]

Still don`t see how they can date Gobekli to 11,000 years ago, when there no other cultures around at that time. Even the others that are around were dated thousands of years later.To me to date a culture one had to relate it to another of that time. It just could `nt come out of the blue.