[Merged] Gobekli Tepe

[Big Bad Voodoo]

People should make at least a small effort to understand that the terms "civilization," "culture," "tribe" etc. do not, in Athropology, constitute any sort of moral judgement on a society.

?

[Harte]

?

this:

Etruscans are civilization and Illyrians are tribes. Thats hilarious. Some pre Inca people are called cultures although thed deserve civilization.

"Deserve?"

Harte

[Big Bad Voodoo]

this:

"Deserve?"

Harte

Whats main difference between culture and civilization if not writing system? Maybe Im wrong just curious.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

What Etruscan did that Illyrians didnt?

[kmt_sesh]

Whats main difference between culture and civilization if not writing system? Maybe Im wrong just curious.

What Etruscan did that Illyrians didnt?

A writing system is one of the hallmarks of a civilization, but on its own it is not enough to meet the criteria. Nor is it necessarily required. Think of Mesoamerican peoples like the Incas and Aztecs—definitely both were civilizations, yet neither possessed a true writing system.

Earlier Harte provided a useful link listing the criteria by which most historians would classify a culture as a civilization. Here is the list again, for the sake of convenience:

• Large urban centers
  
• Full-time specialist occupations
  
• Primary producers of food paying surpluses to deity or ruler
  
• Monumental architecture
  
• Ruling class exempt from manual labor
  
• System for recording information
  
• Development of exact, practical sciences
  
• Monumental art
  
• Regular importation of raw materials
  
• Interdependence of classes (peasants, craftspeople, rulers)
  
• State religion/ideology
  
• Persistent state structures
  

So if we take the Illyrians as an example, how many of the above would realistically describe them? With the possible exception of importation of raw materials, none of them do. In point of fact "Illyrian" doesn't even describe a single people but was a Greek reference to any number of nomadic to semi-nomadic tribal groups on the fringes of other civilizations. They were basically the same to Greece and Macedon as the barbarians were to Rome.

The Etruscans, on the other hand, possessed large urban centers, specialist occupations, surpluses from food production, and pretty much everything else on that list. Now, the Etruscans were never a cohesive nation-state but fit the example more of a loose federation, but so did the Maya (another great Mesoamerican civilization).

On an aside and pertaining to one of your earlier posts, Chinese civilization does not track back as far as ancient Egypt's. Not even close, in fact. Here is an example of where you might be seeing a culture as a civilization. The first great dynastic Chinese civilization was the Qin, although earlier civilizations existed. They were only smaller and did not dominate all of China. But Egypt became a recognizable civilization around 3100 BCE (if not earlier, considering the socio-political sophistication of its late-prehistoric regional polities), and China doesn't extend that far back in such terms. Were there culture in China as ancient as that? Certainly, yes, but I think all I and others are doing is trying to emphasize the correct application of the historical lexicon.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

?

I think he means in Anthropological terms, tht is thry study of peoples and societiies etc, "tribe", "culture" and "civilisation" are akin to the use of "village", "town" and "city" are ie they describe size and scope of the collective rther thrn judge on value th collective.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I think he means in Anthropological terms, tht is thry study of peoples and societiies etc, "tribe", "culture" and "civilisation" are akin to the use of "village", "town" and "city" are ie they describe size and scope of the collective rther thrn judge on value th collective.

Then Illyrians should be civilization.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Kmt,

Dont have enough time but I will just say that Harte criteria isnt right. Btw, Illyrians 70% full fill those "Hartes" criteria.

They were not nomadic people. Thats wrong. They were Barbarians in the eyes of Greeks. Same as Mongols to China, or Celts to Rome.

They strech from Alps to Italy to Greece. In fact they cover more area then Greeks if except their colonial era.

Illyrians also have had urban centers. Maybe you just not aware of them, specalist occupation and so on.

Etruscans were like Sumer and Greece-city states. On other hand Illyrians were united in history. Twice. Before Roman conquest and during.

About Chinese, I can agree that they were not civilization as Egypt till Qin. But next dynasty marked them as major gameplayer on all fields for almost 2000 years.

Han overshadow all empires before except Rome.

Edit: To put right words.

Edited October 4, 2012 by the L

[cormac mac airt]

A writing system is one of the hallmarks of a civilization, but on its own it is not enough to meet the criteria. Nor is it necessarily required. Think of Mesoamerican peoples like the Incas and Aztecs—definitely both were civilizations, yet neither possessed a true writing system.

Earlier Harte provided a useful link listing the criteria by which most historians would classify a culture as a civilization. Here is the list again, for the sake of convenience:

• Large urban centers
  
• Full-time specialist occupations
  
• Primary producers of food paying surpluses to deity or ruler
  
• Monumental architecture
  
• Ruling class exempt from manual labor
  
• System for recording information
  
• Development of exact, practical sciences
  
• Monumental art
  
• Regular importation of raw materials
  
• Interdependence of classes (peasants, craftspeople, rulers)
  
• State religion/ideology
  
• Persistent state structures
  

So if we take the Illyrians as an example, how many of the above would realistically describe them? With the possible exception of importation of raw materials, none of them do. In point of fact "Illyrian" doesn't even describe a single people but was a Greek reference to any number of nomadic to semi-nomadic tribal groups on the fringes of other civilizations. They were basically the same to Greece and Macedon as the barbarians were to Rome.

The Etruscans, on the other hand, possessed large urban centers, specialist occupations, surpluses from food production, and pretty much everything else on that list. Now, the Etruscans were never a cohesive nation-state but fit the example more of a loose federation, but so did the Maya (another great Mesoamerican civilization).

On an aside and pertaining to one of your earlier posts, Chinese civilization does not track back as far as ancient Egypt's. Not even close, in fact. Here is an example of where you might be seeing a culture as a civilization. The first great dynastic Chinese civilization was the Qin, although earlier civilizations existed. They were only smaller and did not dominate all of China. But Egypt became a recognizable civilization around 3100 BCE (if not earlier, considering the socio-political sophistication of its late-prehistoric regional polities), and China doesn't extend that far back in such terms. Were there culture in China as ancient as that? Certainly, yes, but I think all I and others are doing is trying to emphasize the correct application of the historical lexicon.

One should keep in mind that the Incas used quipus to record information, so they did have a means of record keeping. Which, while not specifically a language, is just as valuable to any civilization.

cormac

[Big Bad Voodoo]

One should keep in mind that the Incas used quipus to record information, so they did have a means of record keeping. Which, while not specifically a language, is just as valuable to any civilization.

cormac

And did Inca invented quipus?

[Macroramphosis]

Now, the Etruscans were never a cohesive nation-state but fit the example more of a loose federation, but so did the Maya (another great Mesoamerican civilization).

Hi kmt,

I'm certainly not intending to be seen as picking hairs, but if the Incas and the Aztecs did not meet the criteria we're discussing, who is the other great Mesoamerican civilization other than the Mayas ?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Mayas are civilization.

Although when we look on time lines when Spainyards have had guns and steel they and Aztecs were in stone age. Literaly.

Edited October 4, 2012 by the L

[Macroramphosis]

other than the Mayas ?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I have plenty of pictures of Illyrians. Here is few from UM archive.

Asseria

Nesactium

[cormac mac airt]

And did Inca invented quipus?

http://www.ancientscripts.com/quipu.html

http://www.pearsonhighered.com/assets/hip/us/hip_us_pearsonhighered/samplechapter/0321355822.pdf

cormac

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I have pictures of their weapons armor, their unique weapon Sika or Sica, their coins...Ships...

In fact Roman ship Liburnica is named and stolen design from Illyrians ships from "tribe" Liburnians.

Best accounts about Illyrians we have from Romans. Greeks are poor.

And from Archaeology.

Here is Daorson

Tribes...just dont fits them.

Edit: Maybe I should start a thread.

Edited October 4, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

http://www.ancientsc....com/quipu.html

http://www.pearsonhi.../0321355822.pdf

cormac

Thanks

[Big Bad Voodoo]

For woman

Edited October 4, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

For man

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Arsenal

[Big Bad Voodoo]

sword

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Little celtic look but its Illyrian neckless

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Object for unknown purpose. many colors, like rings with many faces...

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Money ofcourse.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Their unique weapon Sika.