How do skeptics explain Qi Gong

[None of the above]

Explain bending the spear with his throat. The scientist who was there could not explain it. She explained it well, that qi cannot be quantified in known scientific terms. Explain the thermal camera showing heat emanating from Zhou's hands.

Skin is suprisingly strong and the 'spear' was a specially chosen prop. You could push a broom handle through a watermellon, so a blunt spear is no problem.

This type of 'Wushu' spear is a very special display prop, not an actual weapon. Also he moved into the blow on his back etc. It's a combination of training, discipline, and visual effects. It looks good but it's just a trick based in part on disciplined martial arts training.

As for the heat 'from' the hands demonstration?

It looked to me like a chemical reaction from the props in his hand. Without scientific or at the very least carefully controlled and verified independant testing it's neither here nor there really. To me it looked no more impressive than a farrier handling hot metal.

I have to say though that in terms of Wushu I like the Jian (long sword ) form best. I find this sort of thing more impressive than breaking blocks or bending sticks with ones throat:

[media=]http://youtu.be/G9oJi9QuLsQ

Edited August 19, 2012 by Atlantia

[None of the above]

but to take it a step further, these Wushu weapons are 'stage props' not actual weapons. Check out this girl with Real live Katanas. If she slips or misjudges one of those moves near her head, she could cut her own throat! I find this much more impressive, because there are no tricks or pretend weapons.

http://youtu.be/LGeH_UVUh0E

[None of the above]

I can gurantee you there was no intentional deception. Mabey it wasn't qi that protected him, but his movement into the bat is a response born of training. He believes it to be qi. It's just a label. He indeed is using focused energy at his abdomin to protect himself in several ways. People are just unable to get over the label. What one person calls squeezing your abs and timing an intercept with a blow, another calls qi flow. in addition, the very practice of receiving blows like that builds up calcium in the bones. A life long practitioner will have much denser bones than the average person, because they have spent a lifetime building their qi.

Greater Bone density, timeing to intercept blows, and mental control of pain. Indeed an "iron shirt".

Healing qi gong is similar. It's basically a form of deep tissue massage. Hurts like hell, but squeezing blood flow into injured areas, and also squeezing toxins out through pressure is proven to facilitate healing. Then the pain form the massage releases endorphins so you feel better. And I must admit when sifu asks the next day if the problem is better, if you don't feel like another ordeal, you will not complain. Yes Sifu, all better, Nop see it works just fine thank you sir.... No need for another treatment :) :)

Hi Seeker.

I'm not saying that these aren't highly trained disciplined people. But the bat routine and the spear for that matter are just gags (stunts).

Watch the guy land the blow, he pulls it and the target moves into it to cover that and eccentuate his 'being repelled'.

It's just not credible to use a non-independant 'trained' assistant to hit him.

You seem to have an understanding of these techniques, you can see the difference between a blow that lands full force and one that is pulled.

Do you think the result would have been the same with you swinging the bat?

I'd bet good money that with me swinging it I'd have caused him serious injury.

I agree that long term specialised training produces interesting physical effects and of course in any martial art timing and control are of paramount importance.

As for the healing 'chi', I think that's an interesting area. The idea of channeling energy is very interesting. I've personally known (many years ago in a previous life of working in nightclubs ) a chap trained in martial arts to the point of 'master' (at the time featured in a ple of magasines, quite famous in those circles, so I'll keep his name quiet lol) anyway on a couple of occasions when things really went 'tits up' he seemed to make people fall over by touching them with no ill effects to them afterwards. Very impressive. On one occasion a bloke was discussing an altercation with four doormen, two in front one either side. Out of nowhere he swung and dropped one of the two in front of him with a cracking right hook to the eye (that was the doorman stood next to the guy who was the martial arts expert) the two either side grabbed the bloke and the 'master' flat palmed him on the chest at very close range and knocked all three over in a heap.

Most of the door team had a background in martail arts of one sort or another, but they ALL walked on eggshells around this guy and he was a little slightly built guy of about 5'9". None of the big 6'3" gorillas would have EVER crossed him. He never threw a punch, he never lost his temper, he never raised his voice, he was just calm and quietly scary! lol, if he was ever involved in sorting out any trouble, as soon as he touched people they always 'came quietly'.

I'd like to see scientific tests done on Chi healing. Like the guy I saw on a documentary on Java seeming to produce electricity from his hands and lighting a ball of newspaper.

Unless it's properly verified it's nothing, but if it was scientifically verified it would be worth serious research and investigation.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Atlantia

[White Crane Feather]

Hi Seeker.

I'm not saying that these aren't highly trained disciplined people. But the bat routine and the spear for that matter are just gags (stunts).

Watch the guy land the blow, he pulls it and the target moves into it to cover that and eccentuate his 'being repelled'.

It's just not credible to use a non-independant 'trained' assistant to hit him.

You seem to have an understanding of these techniques, you can see the difference between a blow that lands full force and one that is pulled.

Do you think the result would have been the same with you swinging the bat?

I'd bet good money that with me swinging it I'd have caused him serious injury.

I agree that long term specialised training produces interesting physical effects and of course in any martial art timing and control are of paramount importance.

As for the healing 'chi', I think that's an interesting area. The idea of channeling energy is very interesting. I've personally known (many years ago in a previous life of working in nightclubs ) a chap trained in martial arts to the point of 'master' (at the time featured in a ple of magasines, quite famous in those circles, so I'll keep his name quiet lol) anyway on a couple of occasions when things really went 'tits up' he seemed to make people fall over by touching them with no ill effects to them afterwards. Very impressive. On one occasion a bloke was discussing an altercation with four doormen, two in front one either side. Out of nowhere he swung and dropped one of the two in front of him with a cracking right hook to the eye (that was the doorman stood next to the guy who was the martial arts expert) the two either side grabbed the bloke and the 'master' flat palmed him on the chest at very close range and knocked all three over in a heap.

Most of the door team had a background in martail arts of one sort or another, but they ALL walked on eggshells around this guy and he was a little slightly built guy of about 5'9". None of the big 6'3" gorillas would have EVER crossed him. He never threw a punch, he never lost his temper, he never raised his voice, he was just calm and quietly scary! lol, if he was ever involved in sorting out any trouble, as soon as he touched people they always 'came quietly'.

I'd like to see scientific tests done on Chi healing. Like the guy I saw on a documentary on Java seeming to produce electricity from his hands and lighting a ball of newspaper.

Unless it's properly verified it's nothing, but if it was scientifically verified it would be worth serious research and investigation.

Like a mentioned the "magic" of it is just a label. There is no doubt when you punch Somone you are "channeling energy" into them. Energy from your shoulder, core, hips, legs, even the feet if you know proper technique. Lots and lots of mechanical energy there.

People just like to take something basic and make it more than it is to create mystique. This is an old tradition and a form of physiological martial arts. People usially only fight if they know they can win. If there is aura of mystery surrounding a person, then no one...especially a long time ago would attack them.

It sounds like your friend knew the buhdda palm technique. you can learn how to change the energy of a strike by how you make contact. Basically in wider or tighter wave patterns. A skilled martial artist can hit just right and the tighter wave pattern will be focused on your internal organs. this is the technique alluded to in "blood sport" where dukes ryu breaks the bottom brick.

As to the touch them fall over stuff..... This is a form of hypnosis... Much like when people fall over from being waked on the head at church.

Don't get me wrong the coiled energy of Qi is something I know to exist, but it's not energy in the sense of flowing electricity. It's more like an emotion (energy in motion)..,. Or deep awareness. Something you bring to mind then to body through normal biomechanical means. It's a meditation that brings your entire body together to focus awareness. It's not magic it's mind.

As to dim , death point striking, and poisoning Qi. This is all true aswell, but it was just a use of physiology. A closed head injury can be cause by a high speed sharp attack to the head. A sharks tooth fist ( if the knuckle is calcified) can accomplish this. An untreated closed head injury will kill you in several days. Specific techniques that cause internal injuries were death to people in ancient times. Now you just go to the hospital and they fix you up, so there really is no point in calcifying your knuckle to perform things like dim mak. Still works great as an eye attack though.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Seeker79

[White Crane Feather]

What conspiracy? What do you think I just addressed?

There exists rules for drugs, you're making it sound like people just put whatever they want on the market without testing.

Hence recalls and lawsuits. While I appreciate your faith in what is supposed to happen, pharmaceuticals would not be a LEADING cause of death if things were working properly and rules were being followed now would it?

[Rlyeh]

Hence recalls and lawsuits. While I appreciate your faith in what is supposed to happen, pharmaceuticals would not be a LEADING cause of death if things were working properly and rules were being followed now would it?

Jesus Christ. Did you bother to read your own link? It's talking about accidental overdose, human error. Please don't try to pass the blame to pharmaceuticals. Rules don't cure stupidity.

You may aswell blame car manufacturers for bad drivers.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Rlyeh

[White Crane Feather]

Jesus Christ. Did you bother to read your own link? It's talking about accidental overdose, human error. Please don't try to pass the blame to pharmaceuticals. Rules don't cure stupidity.

You may aswell blame car manufacturers for bad drivers.

You don't become chemically addicted to your car. Do you have any idea the exports big pharm makes to other countries without controls? Do you have any idea how much they make on a shoddy system that allows people to be addicted and spoon fed pharmaceuticals until their kidneys give out?

Did you know that they continually push to have the FDA raise its fees so that only the top companies can compete?

the FDA and big pharm will bury anyone who comes up with something that threatens their monopoly. It's not a pretty fluffy bunny world my friend, and doctors are not the ones in control.

You should watch this documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qG_ZWs04es&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[SolarPlexus]

Yup the cure for cancer exists but the strong hand of pharmaceutical industry mafia will suppress it. Who needs healthy people to sell there drugs to ? The same reason all clean and renewable technologies are suppressed. Plus cancer is the number one population controller on the planet ....

[White Crane Feather]

Yup the cure for cancer exists but the strong hand of pharmaceutical industry mafia will suppress it. Who needs healthy people to sell there drugs to ? The same reason all clean and renewable technologies are suppressed. Plus cancer is the number one population controller on the planet ....

There are whole hospitals and wings of universites supported by chemo therepy and radiation can you imagine what that does to their industry if a much more effective and easy to use treatment becomes available. Who would choose chemo and radiation over antineoplastieens? If I found out they let my child die to hang on to their poisoning, im not sure what I would be capable of.

[jsowersby]

What you're saying is uneducated, ignorance, you want some magical cure and then blaming drugs for not giving it to you. Don't be so asinine.

I'm not blaming drugs for anything. I'm saying they are ineffective. There is nothing magical about changing diet and being proactive about your own health. Anyone can learn to manipulate their own qi, it's not magical, it's just not understood by Western science.

It seems to me you just want to make rude comments and hope to get a rise out of me or insult me somehow. Your posts are arrogant and pointless.

[jsowersby]

Skin is suprisingly strong and the 'spear' was a specially chosen prop. You could push a broom handle through a watermellon, so a blunt spear is no problem.

This type of 'Wushu' spear is a very special display prop, not an actual weapon. Also he moved into the blow on his back etc. It's a combination of training, discipline, and visual effects. It looks good but it's just a trick based in part on disciplined martial arts training.

As for the heat 'from' the hands demonstration?

It looked to me like a chemical reaction from the props in his hand. Without scientific or at the very least carefully controlled and verified independant testing it's neither here nor there really. To me it looked no more impressive than a farrier handling hot metal.

I have to say though that in terms of Wushu I like the Jian (long sword ) form best. I find this sort of thing more impressive than breaking blocks or bending sticks with ones throat:

[media=]http://youtu.be/G9oJi9QuLsQ

They are impressive forms no doubt. Qi is internal are you cannot see it, only feel it. My experience with qi is no trick. I used a cooking thermometer and with my hands held about 7 inches above it focused qi in my hands and raised the temp by 5 degrees after 3 minutes. Although your guess about a chemical reaction could possibly explain the heat coming from Master Zhou's hands it does not explain the healing effects it had on the Doctor's back.

I like drunken sword!

Edited August 19, 2012 by jsowersby

[None of the above]

They are impressive forms no doubt. Qi is internal are you cannot see it, only feel it. My experience with qi is no trick. I used a cooking thermometer and with my hands held about 7 inches above it focused qi in my hands and raised the temp by 5 degrees after 3 minutes. Although your guess about a chemical reaction could possibly explain the heat coming from Master Zhou's hands it does not explain the healing effects it had on the Doctor's back.

I like drunken sword!

I agree.

I've also seen things that deserve further 'scientific' investigation.

Most of the stuff that gets discussed around here I wouldn't waste a penny on investigating, but the various forms of 'chi medicine' ARE really interesting. I'd like to see them properly investigated and subjected to scientific analysis.

Edit:

What about this clip:

[media=]

[/media]

I collect swords and my understanding of martial skills is mostly weapon based..... I could watch her cut tatami mats all day long.

She makes it look like nothing, but she really knows what she's doing.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Atlantia

[None of the above]

Yup the cure for cancer exists but the strong hand of pharmaceutical industry mafia will suppress it. Who needs healthy people to sell there drugs to ? The same reason all clean and renewable technologies are suppressed. Plus cancer is the number one population controller on the planet ....

If there was a 'universal' cure for cancers, then it couldn't be supressed for long.

EVERYONE has a personal interest in finding a cure for cancer.

If one set of researchers have found this 'cure' then others will have also found it or would do soon enough. If their research was supressed, then others research would get through.

Think about it. You're 24 years old, by the time you are my age (43) you will probobly have watched AT LEAST two close relatives die of cancer..... if you haven't already seen one?

An attended death in hospital to cancer is truly a sight to behold.

Pharmaceutical companies are for the most part repulsive money grubbing parasites who would deny poor people in Africa anti HIV drugs if they can't afford them.

But their power to control and supress something as BIG as the 'holy grail' of medical research, a universal cure for cancer? Not a chance.

Rich and powerful people die of cancer every day too.

P.S: Poverty is the #1 population controller on the planet, not cancer.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Atlantia

[White Crane Feather]

If there was a 'universal' cure for cancers, then it couldn't be supressed for long.

EVERYONE has a personal interest in finding a cure for cancer.

If one set of researchers have found this 'cure' then others will have also found it or would do soon enough. If their research was supressed, then others research would get through.

Think about it. You're 24 years old, by the time you are my age (43) you will probobly have watched AT LEAST two close relatives die of cancer..... if you haven't already seen one?

An attended death in hospital to cancer is truly a sight to behold.

Pharmaceutical companies are for the most part repulsive money grubbing parasites who would deny poor people in Africa anti HIV drugs if they can't afford them.

But their power to control and supress something as BIG as the 'holy grail' of medical research, a universal cure for cancer? Not a chance.

Rich and powerful people die of cancer every day too.

P.S: Poverty is the #1 population controller on the planet, not cancer.

Well it's not a universal cure, it's just way more effective without the devistating side effects of current treatments.

Did you watch the documentary? It is clear there has been a great effort to surpress and steal this technology.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Seeker79

[Radian]

The education level of some of you people is terrible.

Edit: Please find out about clinical trials and active ingredients before spewing such garbage.

What I find ironic is those who attempt to belittle and ridicule those with honest opinions are staying in the closed minded box rather than stepping out of it. Really? Who's willing to open their mind to possibilities and progress....? The mere possibilities that are out there and therefore progress, or the so called ones who 'claim' to be so educated and remain braindead?

[Rlyeh]

What I find ironic is those who attempt to belittle and ridicule those with honest opinions are staying in the closed minded box rather than stepping out of it. Really? Who's willing to open their mind to possibilities and progress....? The mere possibilities that are out there and therefore progress, or the so called ones who 'claim' to be so educated and remain braindead?

Baseless accusations, the new open mindedness? Or is that lack of reading comprehension?

I find it odd that those who supposely have an open mind have thrown reason out, as you've nicely demonstrated.

Just a suggestion but you might want to use your brain the next time you try to read.

[Rlyeh]

You don't become chemically addicted to your car. Do you have any idea the exports big pharm makes to other countries without controls? Do you have any idea how much they make on a shoddy system that allows people to be addicted and spoon fed pharmaceuticals until their kidneys give out?

*snip*

Since you've repeatedly ignored the trials and requirements drugs must pass, there is no use continuing this discussion with someone who blames drugs for human error.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Saru
Removed personal attack

[White Crane Feather]

Since you've repeatedly ignored the trials and requirements drugs must pass, there is no use continuing this discussion with someone who blames drugs for human error.

Human error on the scale that kills people more than car accidents? At least that is the statistic in 09.

There are around 190 million drivers and pharm kills more than car accidents. Human error? Haha you betcha, the error is in the trust and power we give them. No one forces us to put that crap in our mouths, or let pharm experiment on us.... but we do don't we...... So yeah Human error. If another industry killed that many people human error or not, they would be toast. Somehow they are not responsible, and Im sure it has nothing to do with money?

[Rlyeh]

Human error on the scale that kills people more than car accidents? At least that is the statistic in 09.

There are around 190 million drivers and pharm kills more than car accidents. Human error? Haha you betcha, the error is in the trust and power we give them. No one forces us to put that crap in our mouths, or let pharm experiment on us.... but we do don't we...... So yeah Human error. If another industry killed that many people human error or not, they would be toast. Somehow they are not responsible, and Im sure it has nothing to do with money?

Thats still human error no matter how you spin it. *snip* Edited August 20, 2012 by Saru
Removed insults

[White Crane Feather]

Thats still human error no matter how you spin it.

Naive? That's funny. Believing money has nothing to do with this is more than naive.

[Rlyeh]

Naive? That's funny. Believing money has nothing to do with this is more than naive.

I never said anything of the sort.

[bmk1245]

Hmmm... I wonder, how believers would explain "master's" failure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r34w7zchng

Reality always wins (and pretty quickly) against fantasies.

[Timothy]

It's a joke. Baseless claims. Whenever they try to prove it to skeptics they fail and make excuses.

[White Crane Feather]

Hmmm... I wonder, how believers would explain "master's" failure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r34w7zchng

Reality always wins (and pretty quickly) against fantasies.

Poor guy. Spent to many years with his students acting that crap out, he actually believed it. You could tell its been a long time since he's been hit.... Mabey never.

[Radian]

I watched my mother die of breast cancer. She fought it for years. She went thru the radiation and chemo over and over. On top of a billion meds she took daily that made her even more sick-- I asked her before she passed what would she do different if she could- she said she would not have subjected her self to the rad/chemo but would have set back and smoked MJ to get thru it all.

The thing is she didnt die from the cancer itself, she died from the side effects from the chemo and rad. -

When you are subjecting yourself to the poison, really? and expect to be "cured." How does that work.

It's true. There is too much money to be lost and basically this country would shut down if there were a cure. I believe whole heartedly that there is and the GUBMENT knows this. It's pathetic.