How do skeptics explain Qi Gong

[jsowersby]

Numbers, please. With sources.

Are you sure you will not be addicted to "chinese" medicine? Seems to me you are the case.

Herbs do work. So what? What herbs have to do with qi/chi/whatever bullcrap. And, BTW, can you post life expectancy/child mortality rates in China, say, 30 years ago, and nowadays huh?

Number of Reported Unintentional Poisoning Deaths With Mention of Opioid Analgesics, 2001-2006

Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Health Statistics.

Governmental Statistics Show Widespread Use By All Age Groups

Today, a decade later, recent governmental statistics reveal that pain medication addiction is growing into a national epidemic. In 2009, government statistics indicated that over 5 million Americans were commonly abusing pain relievers. The most recent data from the DEA now estimates over 7 million people in the US are abusing prescription drugs. The death rate from painkillers is now over 15,000 people every year and that is a fourfold increase in less than a decade. Painkiller related deaths are now higher than cocaine and heroin combined. The most alarming aspect of these government reports was that the projected potential scope of the problem is the future. The reports indicated that for the first time (with the exception of nicotine and alcohol) that a substance was being widely used and abused by all groups in our society ranging in age from teenagers to senior citizens. When you stop and consider that more than 50 million Americans are believed to suffer from some sort of chronic pain, you realize how big our nation's pain medication epidemic could grow in the future.

China's under 5 mortality rates are higher across the board, they also have higher population. 4.31 times our population. The U.S has 8 deaths per 1000 people, China has 18 deaths per 1000, if you multiplied our population by 4.31 to match theirs our rate would be 34.48 deaths under 5 years old per 1000.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT?display=default

The herbs in used in Chinese medicine are non-narcotic but like anything else, can be abused or misused. Typically my Chinese doctor gives me topical ointments for pain, that work great for bruises, inflammation by helping the tissue to heal and not simply masking the pain. Synthetic heroin, also known as oxycontin is extremely addictive, only masks the pain, and does nothing to heal tissue damage.

Qi is the foundation of Chinese medicine. Imbalance of qi causes illness. If you want to have an opinion about something maybe you should learn at least something about it first. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/acupuncture-for-pain.htm

BTW being a dick doesn't make you sound more intelligent.

Edited September 11, 2012 by jsowersby

[bmk1245]

Number of Reported Unintentional Poisoning Deaths With Mention of Opioid Analgesics, 2001-2006

Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Health Statistics.

Governmental Statistics Show Widespread Use By All Age Groups

Today, a decade later, recent governmental statistics reveal that pain medication addiction is growing into a national epidemic. In 2009, government statistics indicated that over 5 million Americans were commonly abusing pain relievers. The most recent data from the DEA now estimates over 7 million people in the US are abusing prescription drugs. The death rate from painkillers is now over 15,000 people every year and that is a fourfold increase in less than a decade. Painkiller related deaths are now higher than cocaine and heroin combined. The most alarming aspect of these government reports was that the projected potential scope of the problem is the future. The reports indicated that for the first time (with the exception of nicotine and alcohol) that a substance was being widely used and abused by all groups in our society ranging in age from teenagers to senior citizens. When you stop and consider that more than 50 million Americans are believed to suffer from some sort of chronic pain, you realize how big our nation's pain medication epidemic could grow in the future.

[...]

I have no doubt that if you'll abuse your so adored Chinese remedies, you may end up dead as well.

[...]

China's under 5 mortality rates are higher across the board, they also have higher population. 4.31 times our population. The U.S has 8 deaths per 1000 people, China has 18 deaths per 1000, if you multiplied our population by 4.31 to match theirs our rate would be 34.48 deaths under 5 years old per 1000.

http://data.worldban...display=default

[...]

Oh, man... That's rich!!!

I took snapshot of your post, for future generations...

Hysterical!!!

[...]

The herbs in used in Chinese medicine are non-narcotic but like anything else, can be abused or misused. Typically my Chinese doctor gives me topical ointments for pain, that work great for bruises, inflammation by helping the tissue to heal and not simply masking the pain. Synthetic heroin, also known as oxycontin is extremely addictive, only masks the pain, and does nothing to heal tissue damage.

Qi is the foundation of Chinese medicine. Imbalance of qi causes illness. If you want to have an opinion about something maybe you should learn at least something about it first. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/acupuncture-for-pain.htm

[...]

How do you know ointments given to you aren't masking pain, but healing? I had many bruises, I had back pains, and they healed without any kind of treatment. Miracle!!! And how about view from the different angle?

[...]

BTW being a dick doesn't make you sound more intelligent.

Being a believer in dubous/BS stuff makes you very crappy mathematician.

[jsowersby]

I have no doubt that if you'll abuse your so adored Chinese remedies, you may end up dead as well.

Oh, man... That's rich!!!

I took snapshot of your post, for future generations...

Hysterical!!!

How do you know ointments given to you aren't masking pain, but healing? I had many bruises, I had back pains, and they healed without any kind of treatment. Miracle!!! And how about view from the different angle?

Being a believer in dubous/BS stuff makes you very crappy mathematician.

People can die by abusing almost anything that can be ingested. Aspirin, alcohol. The point you are missing is the addictive nature of, for example, opiates that treat pain and benzodiazpines that treat anxiety. Chinese medicine can cure pain and most anxiety without the risk of becoming addicted. Opiates even if taken as prescribed can lead to dependence.

When it's chronic pain, it does not go away. Everyone has back pain at some point in time but not everyone's pain goes away on it's own. Why take addictive pain medications? The answer is our medical system is a for profit system. There is money in prolonging illness which pain medications excel at. I know the ointments work after using them post surgery on numerous occasions and for strained muscles. Electric balm cured my mother's carpal tunnel in 2 weeks after years of seeing her western doctor who was pushing for surgery.

My math skills may lack but logically it is better to cure the root of illness rather than treat symptoms. But don't beleive me, when you have surgery and are detoxing from opiate withdrawals and crave another pill, remember what I've said. I'm done debating you, you know nothing about Chinese medicine and do not offer any real information, just pompous BS.

[White Crane Feather]

Number of Reported Unintentional Poisoning Deaths With Mention of Opioid Analgesics, 2001-2006

Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Health Statistics.

Governmental Statistics Show Widespread Use By All Age Groups

Today, a decade later, recent governmental statistics reveal that pain medication addiction is growing into a national epidemic. In 2009, government statistics indicated that over 5 million Americans were commonly abusing pain relievers. The most recent data from the DEA now estimates over 7 million people in the US are abusing prescription drugs. The death rate from painkillers is now over 15,000 people every year and that is a fourfold increase in less than a decade. Painkiller related deaths are now higher than cocaine and heroin combined. The most alarming aspect of these government reports was that the projected potential scope of the problem is the future. The reports indicated that for the first time (with the exception of nicotine and alcohol) that a substance was being widely used and abused by all groups in our society ranging in age from teenagers to senior citizens. When you stop and consider that more than 50 million Americans are believed to suffer from some sort of chronic pain, you realize how big our nation's pain medication epidemic could grow in the future.

China's under 5 mortality rates are higher across the board, they also have higher population. 4.31 times our population. The U.S has 8 deaths per 1000 people, China has 18 deaths per 1000, if you multiplied our population by 4.31 to match theirs our rate would be 34.48 deaths under 5 years old per 1000.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT?display=default

The herbs in used in Chinese medicine are non-narcotic but like anything else, can be abused or misused. Typically my Chinese doctor gives me topical ointments for pain, that work great for bruises, inflammation by helping the tissue to heal and not simply masking the pain. Synthetic heroin, also known as oxycontin is extremely addictive, only masks the pain, and does nothing to heal tissue damage.

Qi is the foundation of Chinese medicine. Imbalance of qi causes illness. If you want to have an opinion about something maybe you should learn at least something about it first. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/acupuncture-for-pain.htm

BTW being a dick doesn't make you sound more intelligent.

I hate de da jao that stuff is horrible... But it works.

[bmk1245]

People can die by abusing almost anything that can be ingested. Aspirin, alcohol. The point you are missing is the addictive nature of, for example, opiates that treat pain and benzodiazpines that treat anxiety. Chinese medicine can cure pain and most anxiety without the risk of becoming addicted. Opiates even if taken as prescribed can lead to dependence.

[...]

Curing the causes of the pain or just masking the pain? So again, why there are such death toll (under 5 year olds) differences in China and say Sweden, Norway etc, if Chinese medicine is so powerful, huh?

[...]When it's chronic pain, it does not go away. Everyone has back pain at some point in time but not everyone's pain goes away on it's own. Why take addictive pain medications? The answer is our medical system is a for profit system. There is money in prolonging illness which pain medications excel at. I know the ointments work after using them post surgery on numerous occasions and for strained muscles. Electric balm cured my mother's carpal tunnel in 2 weeks after years of seeing her western doctor who was pushing for surgery.

[...]

Let me ask what is more profitable: years of research/development/clinical trials, or simply putting some herbs and selling them, huh? Heh, until there are believers, cons won't starve.

[...]

My math skills may lack but logically it is better to cure the root of illness rather than treat symptoms. But don't beleive me, when you have surgery and are detoxing from opiate withdrawals and crave another pill, remember what I've said. I'm done debating you, you know nothing about Chinese medicine and do not offer any real information, just pompous BS.

Pompous BS mostly comes from your side. And following your "logic" in Liechtenstein should be 74000 deaths under 5 year olds per thousand of population.

[jsowersby]

Curing the causes of the pain or just masking the pain? So again, why there are such death toll (under 5 year olds) differences in China and say Sweden, Norway etc, if Chinese medicine is so powerful, huh?

Let me ask what is more profitable: years of research/development/clinical trials, or simply putting some herbs and selling them, huh? Heh, until there are believers, cons won't starve.

Pompous BS mostly comes from your side. And following your "logic" in Liechtenstein should be 74000 deaths under 5 year olds per thousand of population.

Higher population, higher death toll it's not that hard to grasp. There is nothing saying that those that died were being treated by Chinese doctors either. Higher population, higher poverty levels, higher death toll. The herbs being used and acupuncture have been used for thousands of years (like 10,000 years), much longer than this country has even been in existence. If it was ineffective, it would have been replaced long ago. In China they use acupuncture instead of anesthesia in surgery in many cases. There are risks with herbs and risks associated with the skill of the prescriber, just like with Western doctors. The difference is Western doctors are mostly trained to prescribe drugs that treat symptoms, Chinese doctors prescribe, diet, herbs, and maybe acupuncture to treat the imbalance in the body so the body heals itself, make sense?

Let explain how the for profit American medical system works. Clinical trials conducted by the FDA, members of which own stock in pharmaceutical companies, give the green light for new drugs that may or may not be safe. The real trials begin when they reach the consumers. If enough people die where the resulting lawsuits are numerous enough to reduce profits, the drugs are recalled. If only a few people die and it is profitable, then they keep pushing the drug.

http://www.cchrint.org/2011/12/06/big-pharma%E2%80%99s-scam-u-s-drug-companies-rig-medication-studies/

Big Pharma’s Scam: U.S. Drug companies rig medication studies

December 6, 2011 – Note from CCHR: We created the psychiatric drug side effects database due to the misleading studies about psychiatric drug safety and efficacy being put out by the psychiatric/pharmaceutical industry. For facts (instead of pharma funded studies) from international drug regulatory agencies visit the psychiatric drug side effects database – click here

Many of these pharmaceutical studies were sponsored by the drug manufacturers; sponsors who the report states "may promote the use of outcomes that are most likely to indicate favourable results for their products."

Mercola.com—New research has revealed just how misleading and questionable the results of medication studies cited in top medical journals actually are — adding to an already sizeable mountain of data on mainstream medical manipulation.

Pharmaceutical and vaccine makers are continually found to be sponsoring the very institution performing the study on the effectiveness of their product.

Such is the case with a recent inquiry that examined the trustworthiness of top drug trials.

Investigators from UCLA and Harvard recently analyzed the randomized drug trials from six prestigious journals, reaching a conclusion that brings into question the overall credibility of many top medication studies and those who perform them.

• Many medication studies published in leading journals have been found to be sponsored by drug manufacturers and include deceptive statistical reporting and wording.
  

• The flu vaccine is a perfect example of medical manipulation, with research concluding the effectiveness of the shots to be as low as one percent. In addition, the “gold standard” for scientific reviews has repeatedly found that there is little to no evidence backing flu vaccines as an effective flu prevention strategy. Despite this, they are still pushed by mainstream health officials
  

• The reason why much of the population believes in mainstream medicine can be traced back to the PR campaigns of Edward Bernays, the so-called father of spin. Bernays focused on ‘conditioning’ consumers into believing many mainstream medical fallacies.
  

The investigative team found that many of these pharmaceutical studies were sponsored by the drug manufacturers; sponsors who the report states “may promote the use of outcomes that are most likely to indicate favourable results for their products.”

In fact many of these studies have been found to utilize different statistical techniques in order to establish the supposed safety of many medications that may actually be harmful to you.

Health Care Fraud Crackdown Reveals Pharmaceutical Companies Among America's Top Defrauders

Rick Ungar , Contributor

1. I completely agree that we need drug companies to innovate. Further, it is very rare that I am hyper-critical of drug companies because I am alive today [...]

+ Comment now

Image by epSos.de via Flickr

A Dept. Of Health & Human Services report out today reveals that the government managed to reclaim $4 billion dollars in health care rip-offs last year – the largest amount ever recovered from those attempting to defraud seniors and taxpayers.

Working in concert through the Health Care Prevention & Enforcement Action Team (“HEAT”), the Justice Department and HHS were able to track down the $4 billion improperly collected by a wide array of bad guys between October 1, 2009 and September 30, 2010. As you would expect, a chunk of the fraud was the work of seedy operators turning in Medicare claims for wheelchairs that were never sold to recipients who never knew they needed mobile assistance. Then there were the run of the mill physician overcharges, billing scams, etc.

But get this – a full one half of the money ripped off was done at the hands of some of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the nation.

Some examples from the past year in drug crime and civil wrongdoing of the corporate variety -

Fortune 500 company, Allergan, (AGN) paid the government $600 million to settle criminal and civil charges arising from the company selling their Botox product as a remedy for headaches – despite forgetting to get FDA approval to do so.

Novartis (NVS) coughed up $422.5 million to get rid of criminal and civil liability problems for illegally marketing some of their products.

AstaZeneca (AZN) kicked in $520 million for marketing an anti-psychotic drug for uses not approved by the FDA and for paying kickbacks to doctors.

While these companies clearly are the poster children for increasing government regulation, we shouldn’t judge the entire industry by the behavior of the few. Maybe most of the drug businesses play it by the book.

Or not.

In fact, the entire pharmaceutical industry is much, much worse when it comes to not playing by the rules, defrauding the taxpayer and illegally pushing drugs in a way that can damage or kill people.

The fines imposed on each of the 2009-2010 rogues gallery is a mere drop in the bucket when compared to what Pfizer paid into the government till in the year preceding the period covered by today’s report. Pfizer’s payment of a $1.2 billion fine for illegally promoting their drugs for uses not approved by the FDA not only established an all-time record for the pharmaceutical industry but was the largest criminal fine ever paid in our nation’s history.

And still, Congressional Republicans tell us that over-regulation of America’s industries are at the very heart of all that ails us.

Maybe they are right. Maybe a pharmaceutical industry freed of the regulatory shackles that force them to defraud our seniors and the nation’s taxpayers in order to maintain their position as one of the most profitable industries in our economy, would be a kinder, gentler, more loving industry without the government telling them what to do.

After all, this life of crime is really not their fault. They’re simply a product of their regulatory environment.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/01/24/health-care-fraud-crackdown-reveals-pharmaceutical-companies-among-americas-top-defrauders/

#1 Cause of Illness, Disability & Death: Prescription Drugs

September 22, 2009, Richard Ruhling, MD, MPH, Washington, DC

Adverse Drug Reactions put 2.2 million people in hospitals and 106,000 died, "making these reactions between the fourth and sixth leading cause of death." Journal of American Medical Assoc, 4-15-1998

But how many died at home? 199,000 according to the Western J Med. June, 2000. Deaths in and outside hospitals from Rx totaled 305,000 then, with 8 million admissions to the hospital and 3 million for long-term care (nursing homes- these people were messed up for life!)

"From 1998 through 2005, reported serious adverse drug events increased 2.6-fold...fatal adverse drug events increased 2.7-fold..." Archives of Internal Medicine, Sep 10, 2007, p 1752.

But if deaths increased 2.7 fold from 1998 to 2005, by 2009 they are increased 4-fold. Multiplying 305,000 deaths/year by 4, prescribed drugs killed 1.2 million people/year-- these are not old people in nursing homes--most of them weren't even in the hospital.

To be fair there are may people who claim to be herbalists that prescribe herbs thinking it won't harm anyone. Many times the patient ends up more ill and in some cases dies. There are always going to be quacks, scammers, and con men. But the biggest cons are running the US medical institutions these days.

[bmk1245]

Higher population, higher death toll it's not that hard to grasp. [...]

To be fair there are may people who claim to be herbalists that prescribe herbs thinking it won't harm anyone. Many times the patient ends up more ill and in some cases dies. There are always going to be quacks, scammers, and con men. But the biggest cons are running the US medical institutions these days.

Whatever... Just remember - reality always wins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r34w7zchng

[jsowersby]

[Silver Surfer]

With regards to the making himself lighter... why don't they just put him on some scales and then ask him to do it... that would convince me ^^

[White Crane Feather]

Whatch the documentary "food matters".

“Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food”

― Hippocrates

[bmk1245]

[media=]

[/media]

Seriously? Sigh... Any kid with no training would chop his d!ck out, not to mention tongue and other parts... Please, folks,... this is getting redicilous.

[jsowersby]

With regards to the making himself lighter... why don't they just put him on some scales and then ask him to do it... that would convince me ^^

Good point!

[jsowersby]

Whatch the documentary "food matters".

"Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food"

― Hippocrates

I have not seen that one but I am aware of cooperations between food industry and pharmaceutical companies. Chemicals in food that make us sick so big pharm can sell us meds. Also look up fluoride's effects on brain functioning and chem-trails. Monsanto is making food that is toxic and is trying to eliminate whole species of plants that are not genetically modified. Health care in America should be called Illness care.

[jsowersby]

What I have noticed from the postings is people with no personal experience with martial arts or any exposure to views/beliefs other than what is taught to them by educational and medical institutions disregarding any views or beliefs that go against what they have been brainwashed into believing is the only absolute truth. To put it another way, it's like a virgin boy thinking the female orgasm is a myth because he has never been there to experience it.

Skepticism is healthy until it prevents someone from growing out of their world view. The only way to grow spiritually is to realize and accept that we do not know all there is to know and to question what we think we know.

[dammage]

http://youtu.be/JTTSXx1ks0I

fast forward to 4.15 adn watch it form there on.

[Bendy Demon]

I am sorry but this video really doesn't prove anything to me other than it is chock full of theatrics.

I really want to be open to this "chi" thing but when I watch the other videos attached to this all I am seeing is a lot of excessive gyrations and just plain goofy looking stuff.

So far "chi" is supposed to be some sort of energy yet no one can say just what the nature of this energy really is; calling it "life" energy does not really describe anything nor does it lend a clearer picture as to what "chi" really is.

See..so far all the energy frequencies we know of can be measured and their frequencies and amplitudes can be recorded yet "chi" has never been actually measured nor has it been differentiated from other energy forms like electricity or magnetism so I am left to wonder if, like so many other "schools" of thought, we have been bamboozled.

[dammage]

I am sorry but this video really doesn't prove anything to me other than it is chock full of theatrics.

I really want to be open to this "chi" thing but when I watch the other videos attached to this all I am seeing is a lot of excessive gyrations and just plain goofy looking stuff.

So far "chi" is supposed to be some sort of energy yet no one can say just what the nature of this energy really is; calling it "life" energy does not really describe anything nor does it lend a clearer picture as to what "chi" really is.

First of all, you can drive a car without knowing how one is constructed. In a similar way, humans can channel energies they dont understand.

See..so far all the energy frequencies we know of can be measured and their frequencies and amplitudes can be recorded yet "chi" has never been actually measured nor has it been differentiated from other energy forms like electricity or magnetism so I am left to wonder if,

Second of all measurements and quantifications are not restricted to machines or tools.

The academics have been so dumbed down that the simply tought of consiousness functiong as properity of measurments never enters there minds.

Science is at its base structured with the help of epistemological presumtions which are defined as the scientific method. Any Failure to adopt new discoveries and closing knowledge gaps with the use of the scientific method can be asserted to its inability to deal with reality contexts. what if the epistemological base(which is a filosophy) and also at the root of empirical science is also fundamentally destined to a certain limit in knowledge, hence all the various problems of today that cant be solved.

maybe its not due to time or restrictions within the very fabric of reality but due to a flawed framework?

besides science take a leap of faith when they define thier conclusions of their findings. for example there are many neuroscientists held in the firm notion that all consiousness activity is inherit within the brain,but yet they cant manage to empirically measure a tought...but....ARE YOU READY?......those unmeasured toughts has been behind every discovery and invention this world has seen. so there you have a perfect analogy that not everything unmeasurable is faithbased.

******* laugable that scientitsts cant seem to grasp that every measurable thing has been a product of a consiousness observer that cant be measured given that its self -evident.

Thats whats happend when academics spoon fed people information - the people who fall victims under their tounge, fcan become super computerers citing incredibel fatcs on a 5 sense level, yet they are completly stupified drones on a spiritual level.

dont forget to revisit my thread about the prophecy that is aobut to come, which will expose all academics (not all becuse some of the most respected scientists have always know that they are full of **** but they are a part of a cable who´´s mission is world control)

on an unrelated note im not arguing in favour of "chi" ( i beleive it to be a negative energy with symbolic luciferic ties, but thats just a topic i down want to discuss so i wont present it to be a fact.

[Bendy Demon]

First of all, you can drive a car without knowing how one is constructed. In a similar way, humans can channel energies they dont understand.

Meaningless, especially since any auto-mechanic with even a cursory grasp of cars can easily point to and name car parts and explain what they do without resorting to vague and arbitrary terms like "chi".

If science cannot adequately explain something using terms that do not rely on ambiguity then all it does is remain a hypothesis.

Using flowery terms that appeal to our infant-like senses cannot and should never be relied on as a means to explain something.

So I ask..what is this "chi"? Or to be precise, what manner of "energy" is chi? Electrical? Magnetic? X-Ray? Microwave? Is it based on radioactive decay? Heat?

I cherish science because it seeks to explain and often revises and refines its findings and stances whereas religion and so-called "spiritual" practices demand you blindly accept and proceed to humiliate you when you either don't "believe", ask for verification or simply ask questions.

I do not mean to be offensive but simply calling something "energy" and lending vague terms to its nature doesn't help me understand it. Just because something sounds nice doesn't mean it is therefore true.

[dammage]

Ryu,

Meaningless, especially since any auto-mechanic with even a cursory grasp of cars can easily point to and name car parts and explain what they do without resorting to vague and arbitrary terms like "chi".

No its not meaningless, becuse while your scenario is true it dont nessecery restrict an indivual from driving a car if there werent any "auto-mechanic", simple as that.

In the same way we can channel "chi" and master it at will, therefore we understand its effect in the context that we can put it to use without us having to explain "it"

If science cannot adequately explain something using terms that do not rely on ambiguity then all it does is remain a hypothesis.

See the rest of my post that you didnt decide to quote FOR AN answer AND TRY TO APPLY YOURSELF THIS TIME.

Using flowery terms that appeal to our infant-like senses cannot and should never be relied on as a means to explain something.

BUT YET YOU CAN MASTER THE CHI PROPENT AT WILL AND PUT IT TO USE THEREFORE YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM THAT CONTEXT. THE CHI ENERGY IS SUBMISSIVE TO THE CONSIOUSNESS OBSERVER IN THAT WE CAN MASTER IT AT WILL.