CNN producer kidnapped in Gaza

[Erikl]

CNN producer kidnapped in Gaza

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

Palestinian gunmen on Monday kidnapped an Israeli Arab journalist working for CNN as he was riding in a taxi in the Rimal neighborhood of Gaza City.

Riad Ali Ghanem, 40, a Druze from the village of Maghar in the Galilee, was kidnapped after a group of armed men stopped the taxi he was riding in with CNN Correspondent Ben Wedeman and a CNN camerawoman.

A white Peugeot pulled in front of the taxi, blocking its way, Wedeman said.

"A young man got out of the car, pulled a gun out of his trousers, came up and said to me - actually in Arabic – 'Which one of you is Riad?'"

Ali answered, "I am Riad," Wedeman said.

The kidnapper ordered Ali to get out of the taxi, Wedeman said. As he did so, several other men, some with AK-47 rifles, came out of the Peugeot.

Wedeman said the kidnappers made no attempt to cover their faces.

"They took him out of the car and drove him away," said Wedeman. No one was injured in the incident.

Ghanem, a father of three, has worked for CNN for about two years as a producer and translator in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Before that he worked for Israel's Channel 1 as an Arab affairs correspondent. His father served for many years in the Border Police.

A graduate of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, Ghanem worked for many years as a tutor at Neveh Shalom (Oasis of Peace) near Latrun

Wedeman described Ghanem as someone who is known in Gaza, has worked there "for several years and has good contacts." Ghanem had been trying to set up interviews, Wedeman said.

"We have always been able to operate here without too much trouble," he added.

At CNN headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia, CNN President Jim Walton said, "We are working actively for Riad's safe return and are in touch with his family, offering them our full support during this difficult time. We have not yet heard from his abductors but urge them to release Riad immediately. He is a veteran journalist of the highest integrity."

Asked whether the abductors had given any clue why they were seizing the journalist, Wedeman said: "These men were not very communicative. They just asked which one of you is Riyad, and that was it."

He said the gunmen looked like "your average Gazan of their age, which was somewhere in their early 20's."

It was strange, he said, that in an "environment usually hospitable to us, for men to put a gun in my face and ask me about people I work with."

MK Mohammed Barakeh phoned Arafat and asked him to interfere to secure the release of Ghanem. "President Araat is personally tackling the case," he said. "The PA does not know who is behind the kidnapping. We condemn the kidnapping of any journalist. It is inconceivable that a barbaric thing like this take place."

Andrew Seal head of foreign journalists cell condemned the kidnapping and called for immediate release of the journalist.

No group claimed responsibility for the abduction.

Following the kidnapping, OC Southern Command Maj.-Gen. Dan Harel has prohibited the entrance of Israelis and journalists into the Gaza Strip, closing down the Erez crossing at 5:00 p.m., Army Radio reported.

In the past there have been several alerts over Palestinian intentions to kidnap foreign journalists. Usually, in such cases, the IDF has closed down the Erez roadblock.

SOURCE

[Talon]

Five Palestinians killed in raids

Two Palestinian militants have been killed in Israeli operations in the northern Gaza strip and the West Bank.

Hamas member Tawfik Ali Charafi, 22, died when Israeli troops opened fire near Gaza's Jabaliya refugee camp.

Three Palestinian teenagers were also killed when Israeli troops fired at a stone-throwers in Jabaliya and near Netzarim settlement in central Gaza.

And in the West Bank town of Nablus an al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades member, Majdi Khalifa, was shot by Israeli troops.

The BBC's Alan Johnston in Gaza city said two columns of Israeli troops, bulldozers and tanks move into the northern Gaza Strip late in the night.

He says Palestinian militants often fire rockets from the area near the Jabaliya camp at the town of Sderot, which lies in Israeli territory just across Gaza's boundary fence.

Five missiles were fired at Sderot on Tuesday but without causing any injuries.

This is the third time in recent months that the Israeli army has launched a major incursion into Gaza to try to halt the missile strikes.

In the previous operations, the troops killed a number of Palestinians and caused great destruction, but the rocket launches continued.

The Palestinian militants justify their attacks on the civilians of Sderot by saying that Palestinians are being killed by the army on an almost daily basis in Gaza which has been under Israeli occupation for nearly 40 years, our correspondent says.

Teenagers named

The Israeli military had no immediate comment on the killings in Gaza, but Israeli military sources are quoted as saying soldiers opened fire on two Palestinians seen planting a bomb.

Palestinians told Associated Press agency that 10 people aged between 12 and 21 had been wounded after they threw stones at Israeli jeeps and armoured vehicles.

The two dead teenagers were identified as Ahmed Madi, 17, and Said Abu Aish, 14.

Meanwhile, 14-year-old Mohammed Jaber, was killed after Israeli soldiers shot at a group of school children throwing stones at them near the settlement of Netzarim in central Gaza.

Palestinian cabinet minister Saeb Erekat condemned the operation in Jabaliya saying it showed Israel was preparing to reoccupy Gaza "at a time when [it] is talking about withdrawal and disengagement".

Some reports said the militant killed in Nablus was shot as he ran from Israeli troops who came to arrest him at dawn, after refusing orders to stop.

Another report said the troops surrounded the building where the gunman was hiding and stormed it when he refused to give himself up.

In the West Bank town of Jenin, the home of wanted al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades militant Zakaria Zubeidi was blown up early on Wednesday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3699224.stm

[Babs]

This is terrible about this journalist. And I just love Ben Wedeman.

Edited September 29, 2004 by Babs

[Talon]

This is terrible about this journalist.

And the school child?

[Talon]

.... silence.... guess they don't matter then

[Babs]

Sorry, Talon I didn't read your article I just read Erikl's.

[Talon]

There you are

[Erikl]

2 killed, including baby, in Qassam strike on Sderot home

By Amos Harel and Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Agencies

Two Israelis were killed Wednesday evening, including an infant, and at least 11 others were wounded when a Qassam rocket fired from the Gaza Strip struck a house in the Negev town of Sderot.

The wounded were taken to Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon. One person was in serious condition, two people sustained moderate wounds and eight were treated for light injuries.

Hamas claimed responsibility for the rocket strike, which came after at least four Palestinians were reported killed Wednesday during an Israel Defense Forces raid in the northern Gaza Strip aimed at preventing the firing of Qassam rockets.

At least three of the Palestinians killed were militants said to be militants.

Early Wednesday, two IDF soldiers from the Shimshon Battalion were lightly wounded in a mortar attack on the Gaza settlement of Netzarim. The wounded soldiers were treated at Soroka Medical Center in Be'er Sheva.

A Qassam rocket crashed into hothouses belonging to the Ganei Tal settlement in Gush Katif mid-afternoon Wednesday, lightly wounding a female Palestinian employee.

Other mortar shells were fired Tuesday night and Wednesday at settlements in the Gush Katif area of the Gaza Strip, causing no casualties or damage.

In the West Bank, a Fatah militant was killed by IDF fire and two others were killed while being chased by soldiers.

The IDF contingent in Gaza, meanwhile, took up positions in the environs of the town of Beit Hanun and the Jabalya refugee camp to its west. The operation follows the continued shelling of the western Negev town of Sderot.

A Palestinian preparing to launch a Qassam rocket in Jabalya was killed Wednesday by a missile fired by an Israel Air Force helicopter, the IDF said. The rocket launcher was also destroyed.

Earlier, a 14-year-old Palestinian boy was shot and killed by IDF troops near Jabalya, Palestinians said.

They said at least 15 other Palestinians aged 12 to 21, many of them students in school uniforms, had been wounded by IDF troops after they threw stones at IDF jeeps and armored vehicles.

Palestinians also said a 22-year-old Hamas militant, Tawfiq Ali Sharafi, was killed in an exchange of fire with IDF forces near Jabalya overnight while he was trying to set an explosive. Three gunmen were wounded in exchanges of fire.

Last week the firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel intensified, and previous agreements between Israel and various Palestinian Authority security organizations failed to restrict the escalation.

This is the 12th IDF operation in the northern Gaza Strip in the past three months, when it was decided to deploy troops to contain the rocket attacks.

To date, there has been no significant long-term success in the operations.

Reports of a large mechanized IDF force entering the northern Gaza Strip were received close to midnight Tuesday. The force, estimated to be brigade size, includes Givati, Golani, armor and combat engineering units. Commanding the force is Colonel Avi Levy, commander of the Northern Gaza Brigade.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz authorized the IDF plan for the operation in view of the strain experienced by the civilians of Sderot.

Mofaz visited the town earlier this week, and was told by angry residents that the government must take severe measures to ensure that the Qassams are no longer fired against them.

Sderot Mayor Eli Muyal claimed that if European countries faced a threat similar to that of his town, "Beit Hanun would have been wiped out off the face of the earth."

It appears that the IDF plans to hold the ground it now occupies until the end of the Sukkot holiday, and by then reach some deal with the Palestinian security forces to prevent the Palestinians from firing rockets against Sderot.

One of the problems of previous extensive IDF stays inside Palestinian areas, as experienced in the last incursion near Jabalya two weeks ago, is that the force comes under growing Palestinian attacks involving dozens of anti-tank missiles. Such a possibility would necessitate yet another redeployment.

Sderot, a short time ago

SOURCE

Edited September 29, 2004 by Erikl

[Talon]

All these babies and children dying when will it end

[Babs]

Aren't you a little too quick to jump, Talon?

When they start taking people in the public eye like a journalist it grieves masses of people and hurts the world. They better be careful who they pick up. You don't see the Israelis doing this kind of kidnapping, do you.

And to set the record straight, all killing is horrible. I choose to read Erikl's reports, he seems more objective and on top of things.

Edited September 29, 2004 by Babs

[Erikl]

Talon, imagine 30 people comming towards you, throwing stones, molotov cocktalis, and you and another guy are the only ones standing there, with weapons.

You've been given orders to open fire only if youre lives is in danger.

Now imagine that among this huge crowd there are children, being there instead of in their schools, participating in this attack becuase they were brain washed by a well oiled propaganda machine of Jihad. They are no longer civilians, they are combatants.

So I'm sorry those kids are not excluded from Palestinian Jihad, but that's again, a moral issue that the Palestinians would have to deal with after all of this is over.

Another issue which is interconnected is Palestinian use of children suicide bombers.

I am not sorry though that the IDF soldiers defended themselves - I am sorry that those kids take part in the war, because their parents, brainwashed too, think that their kids should take part in a Jihad instead of going to school

Anyhow, this baby was butchered by Palestinian missiles targeting civilians with no weapons. They fired that missile into a city, not on a military target, and not on combatants !

Edited September 29, 2004 by Erikl

[Babs]

Talon,

Yes, I agree with what Erikl says. You have to take all of this into consideration. And you don't seem to. You have your own agenda.

Edited September 29, 2004 by Babs

[Erikl]

The numbers just increased - now there are 20 wounded and one seriously wounded

EDIT:

A shoe of the little baby

Edited September 29, 2004 by Erikl

[Talon]

Yes, I agree with what Erikl says. You have to take all of this into consideration. And you don't seem to. You have your own agenda.

And your claiming a guy who is the middle of the conflict, serving in the Israeli military, and saying its okay to fire on kids because they were skipping school and throwing stones isn't impartial

Talon, imagine 30 people comming towards you, throwing stones, molotov cocktalis, and you and another guy are the only ones standing there, with weapons.

You've been given orders to open fire only if youre lives is in danger.

You know the Nuremberg trials never accepted the 'taking orders' defence anyway, I'm not blaming the guys who are taking orders and out there on their own, I'm blaming the people who put them their in the first place.

Anyway, tons countries have riots, stones thrown etc But we don't open fire with live ammunition... well mostly I can think of one example which springs to mind in a country which should have known better

I am sorry that those kids take part in the war, because their parents, brainwashed too, think that their kids should take part in a Jihad instead of going to school

So again we're back to children. And again find a root of this conflicts continuance. I see children, you and your fellows see collateral damage.

Anyhow, this baby was butchered by Palestinian missiles targeting civilians with no weapons. They fired that missile into a city, not on a military target, and not on combatants

Yeah, and I said its a horrible thing. Kinda makes you want to go out there and get revenge, exactly what the family of that 14 year old will go out there and do. And so the violence claims more victims and continues.

Now imagine that among this huge crowd there are children, being there instead of in their schools, participating in this attack becuase they were brain washed by a well oiled propaganda machine of Jihad. They are no longer civilians, they are combatants.

So I'm sorry those kids are not excluded from Palestinian Jihad, but that's again, a moral issue that the Palestinians would have to deal with after all of this is over.

Another issue which is interconnected is Palestinian use of children suicide bombers.

Okay, so glad you explained it to me, I've been so silly So, when does it become okay to fire upon children armed with stones? When they are 14? 12? 5?

Edited September 29, 2004 by Talon S.

[Erikl]

And your claiming a guy who is the middle of the conflict, serving in the Israeli military, and saying its okay to fire on kids because they were skipping school and throwing stones isn't

"and saying its okay to fire on kids because they were skipping school and throwing stones"

And the demagogue continues

you know the Nuhrenburg trials never accepted the 'taking overs' defence

Again we are back at Nazism?

This is pure demagogue!

First of all, I didn't say it was okay to kill children.

I said it is okay to kill combatants.

The US and Britain have done this millions of times.

As a matter of fact - using children as combatants was used by the Nazis against the allies to create a psychological affect on the allies soldiers.

Using kids as combatants is a war crime as well as a crime against humanity.

Killing any unarmed person is wrong.

But killing a person who is a threat to youre life is self defence.

Either you understand it, or that you have a serious flaw in how war works.

The Palestinians themselves admit that there were +20 children participating in the attack, yet only 2 died.

Also, there is a big difference between targeting and killing an unarmed person, and killing an unarmed person as part of a battle against two armed forces.

The IDF doesn't target unarmed civilians, but because the terrorists hide amid civilians, there are bound to be civilian casualties.

This is a fact of urban war.

It's messy, and it's bloody, but that is the battle field that the Palestinian terrorists chosen to drag the IDF into.

Stones and molotov cocktails are weapons, wether you like it or not.

True, it isn't an M-16 - but would you like the soldiers to do - give those kids guns and fire only when they are fired at?

Anyway, tons countries have riots, stones thrown etc But we don't open fire with live ammunition... well mostly tongue.gif I can think of one example which springs to mind in a country which should have known better whistling2.gif

And the Palestinians too do riots, and they are not fired with live fire (only tear gas). They do it all the time - especially against the fence.

The IDF doesn't shoot at those kind of demonsrators\rioters.

This attack however, wasn't a riot, it was an ambush laid out to those IDF soldiers.

Yeah, and I said its a horrible thing. Kinda makes you want to go out there and get revenge,

Maybe, but I do respect the law, and I do trust the IDF to find those terrorists who killed those babies, and take him out.

exactly what the family of that 14 year old will go out there and do.

They should have thought about it before they've let him go out and participate in an ambush against armed soldiers.

They have no one to blame but themselves.

And because of that, as oppose to the IDF, they would not be able to find the person who was responsible for their child's death, so they will simply send their other son to kill any random Israeli.

So, when does it become okay to fire upon children armed with stones? When they are 14? 12? 5?

Talon, again the demagogue continues.

Armed children are not civilians, they are combatants.

And untill you haven't felt the terror of tens of stones comming at you in a great velocity, you have no idea what it is like.

We are not talking about the IDF going and killing unarmed, innocent children here.

We are talking about 20-30 children, throwing stones and molotov cocktails, filled with a religious like hatred and aspirations to participate in a Jihad.

[Guest Lottie]

It is never 'right' to kill children and babies.

[Talon]

And the demagogue continues 

Hardly, you said it:

"Now imagine that among this huge crowd there are children, being there instead of in their schools, participating in this attack becuase they were brain washed by a well oiled propaganda machine of Jihad. They are no longer civilians, they are combatants.

So I'm sorry those kids are not excluded from Palestinian Jihad, but that's again, a moral issue that the Palestinians would have to deal with after all of this is over.

Another issue which is interconnected is Palestinian use of children suicide bombers."

Again we are back at Nazism?

This is pure demagogue!

Hardly its true

First of all, I didn't say it was okay to kill children.

I said it is okay to kill combatants.

Combatants… who are children

And picking up a stone hardly turns someone into a combatant.

Using kids as combatants is a war crime as well as a crime against humanity.

And shooting them is probably a war crime too.

Either you understand it, or that you have a serious flaw in how war works.

Oh I understand it perfect, I think its you who’s missing the point. In big bold letters: CHILDREN

The Palestinians themselves admit that there were +20 children participating in the attack, yet only 2 died.

And that makes it okay? How cheap do you think a child's life is?

Also, there is a big difference between targeting and killing an unarmed person, and killing an unarmed person as part of a battle against two armed forces.

One side armed with stones, the other with guns. Its hardly a battle. Civilian vs Soldier. To avoid conflict the IDF should have withdrawn, all its done it make matyrs out of the adults, and made more people cry out of revenge for the children.

Stones and molotov cocktails are weapons, wether you like it or not.

Hardly a weapon if the opposition has guns, and ‘Israeli jeeps and armoured vehicles.’

True, it isn't an M-16 - but would you like the soldiers to do - give those kids guns and fire only when they are fired at?

Oh grow up. Withdraw. Stop making outrageous comments. Your soldiers could also carry blanks (a the threat of being under fire breaks crowds just as easily as real fire) and if that doesn’t work rubber bullets, as we use here against violent protestors.

And the Palestinians too do riots, and they are not fired with live fire (only tear gas). They do it all the time - especially against the fence.

The IDF doesn't shoot at those kind of demonsrators\rioters.

It did so in this occasion

Maybe, but I do respect the law, and I do trust the IDF to find those terrorists who killed those babies, and take him out.

As well as a bunch of bystanders, who will then take up arms and kill Israelis, the IDF go kill them plus bystanders, they bystanders pick up arms and kill Israelis etc etc etc etc

They should have thought about it before they've let him go out and participate in an ambush against armed soldiers.

They have no one to blame but themselves.

And because of that, as oppose to the IDF, they would not be able to find the person who was responsible for their child's death, so they will simply send their other son to kill any random Israeli.

Of course, its all the Palestinian’s fault, the IDF have done nothing to escalate the situation.

And until you haven't felt the terror of tens of stones coming at you in a great velocity, you have no idea what it is like.

And why your not impartial

Armed children are not civilians, they are combatants.

No. Children. They are CHILDREN.

And that attitude Erikle is why this conflict will never end.

[Guest Lottie]

Armed children are not civilians, they are combatants.

The Palestinians themselves admit that there were +20 children participating in the attack, yet only 2 died

These Armed children are children who have absoloutely no idea about what they are doing or why. They are innocents that are being fed aload of BS and have no understanding of what is going on.

Oh only 2 children died out of the 20? and this makes it all right then? I don't think so. These as Talon keeps on saying are Children!! Innocent Children caught up in horrendous circumstances.

Edited September 29, 2004 by Lottie

[Erikl]

These Armed children are children who have absoloutely no idea about what they are doing or why. They are innocents that are being fed aload of BS and have no understanding of what is going on.

Read my original post about it - this is exactly what I wrote.

Those children should have been in school instead of fighting against soldiers.

Innocent Children caught up in horrendous circumstances.

Oh come on - they are not "caught up in horrendous circumstances", they initiated that battle.

No, it's not okay that even 2 children got killed.

You know what - it's not okay that any children, doesn't matter what nationality they are - Palestinian or Jewish - get killed.

But what we need to ask ourselves is what were they doing there in the first place?

Who sent them there?

Who put it into their minds that they should go out and participate in Jihad instead of learning in school?

As they are children, their parents are the first to be responsible for their actions.

But because the Palestinian Authority is no democracy, those parents' views aren't exactly free will - they are brainwashed by the Palestinian leadership into putting these ideas into those childrens' heads.

Killing children is wrong, but ignoring the circumstances in which they were killed in a demagougic way, only to make a point and advance one's agendas (like Talon is doing), is anything but fair.

Portraying the IDF and Israelis as war criminals and Nazis, like many in the west seem to like doing, is unfair and outragous, and it stems exactly from the kind of demagogue used by Talon and his like.

Can't you see the difference between the circumstances in which those children died, and in those of which those two Israeli babies died?

You could say - it doesn't matter, they are all children and they shouldn't die.

I would agree on that.

But using this basic truth as a political weapon against the IDF, and somehow suggesting that the behaviour of the terrorists who killed those babies tonight and the behaviour of the IDF soldiers are somewhat similiar, is outragous and unjust.

Also, using this basic truth to equate between the death of those babies and the two Palestinian children, is somewhat lessening the tragedy that happened to those babies, not because Palestinian kids are somewhat in anyway less worthy than Israeli kids, but because the circumstances are completely different.

It's like saying that the Holocaust victims were just casualties of WW2, like the 20 million Russian soldiers who died in that war.

And I'm not surprised that Talon is the one having difficulties understanding this topic - he also had problem understanding what is the difference between these two deaths.

And in conclusion, if you want a more radical example:

Try to understand what is the difference between the circumstances in which the 250-300 Beslan children were killed, and the circumstances in which 250-300 Hitler Youth members were killed in a battle against the Allies during WW2.

Edited September 29, 2004 by Erikl

[Talon]

advance one's agendas (like Talon is doing), is anything but fair.

Please Erikle, what exactly is my agenda? Your is obviously trying to make this topic into a personal insult thread by being a prat.

and it stems exactly from the kind of demagogue used by Talon and his like.

I'm only quoting what you say

And I'm not surprised that Talon is the one having difficulties understanding this topic - he also had problem understanding what is the difference between these two deaths.

Here we go again, more personal insults How mature. As I said Erikle, I understand the situation perfectly, your just missing my points.

Try to understand what is the difference between the 250-300 Beslan children who were killed, then 250-300 Hitler Youth members who were killed in a battle against the Allies during WW2.

Thats not the same at all. WW2 was a war, not an occupation. Those Youth members had guns, these children had stones. The IDF had alternative methods at their disposal, the Allies had fighting a war to save the World. I personally find it just as offensive that you would compare the IDF to the Allies, as you do when I mention the IDF and Nazis a historcal irony.

Those children with the stones was more like David vs Goliath... only David going up a tank with his stone.

[Talon]

I also couldn't help but notice your hold stance on the children has made a complete U-Turn First, its fault, we had no choice, they were enemy combatants and thats that. Now its all, they were victims of propoganda.

[Guest Lottie]

Oh come on - they are not "caught up in horrendous circumstances", they initiated that battle.

No...there peers initiiated the battle by putting idea's into young childrens heads who do not have any understanding of what its all about! As you pointed out in this quote

As they are children, their parents are the first to be responsible for their actions.

Yes the parents are responsible not the children. They did not deserve to be killed and they do not deserve to be put in this position, neihter should they be in that position.

Who put it into their minds that they should go out and participate in Jihad instead of learning in school?

As before their peers.

You know what - it's not okay that any children, doesn't matter what nationality they are - Palestinian or Jewish - get killed.

Forget the nationality! Children are children!!

[Talon]

Blair makes Middle East key test

Tony Blair has said he will feel it is a personal failure if the Middle East peace process cannot be restarted.

At a Muslim Council of Britain fringe meeting at Labour's conference, the prime minister said the issue's importance went far beyond the region.

He said he hoped differences between the government and Muslim community over Iraq could be put in the past.

And he thanked the council for sending scholars to Iraq to try to secure the release of hostage Ken Bigley.

Priority

Mr Blair said the Middle East conflict had "huge symbolic reach" and was an example of the challenges humanity has in overcoming differences.

"The problem is made worse by the tremendous lack of any form of progress being made at the moment," he said.

"What happens when that occurs is the violence continues, the division becomes worse, the hatred gets worse and then the violence occurs."

But people the world over agreed the only realistic solution was two states - a viable Palestinian state and a secure Israel.

Mr Blair told the meeting: "It is absolutely vital that we revive and restart this process. I can assure you I will do everything I can.

"I regard it as a priority, I regard it as something that I will feel a sense of personal failure over if we cannot get movement back into this process."

He indicated new energy could be put into the peace efforts once the US Presidential elections were over in November.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3702364.stm

[Guest Lottie]

Can't you see the difference between the circumstances in which those children died, and in those of which those two Israeli babies died?

NO! I can't and I am suprised you can. We are talking about innocent minds and lives here. We are not talking about fully grown adults who have control over what information they receive and how they use that information.

Children like to please their peers. They will do as they are told, they have complete and utter trust in their peers, what they are told is true.

[Talon]

True Lottie, true