CNN producer kidnapped in Gaza

[Talon]

"two states, Israel and Palestine, living side-by-side in an enduring peace, would do more to defeat this terrorism than bullets alone can ever do"

- Tony Blair, 28 Sept 2004

Now, as much as thats a very simplifed version of the tensions, and although bringing that peace will be uphill struggle, the basic message is correct. Bullets can only solve so much.

[Babs]

Talon, are you in your own little world?

[Talon]

Can you post something more than 7 words long?

[Babs]

Woe is me, woe is me...Talon doesn't understand war. And Talon wants it his way.

I understand what Erikl is saying and I understand what you are saying...I agree with Erikl. You have missed Erikl's points, but Erikl has certainly captured yours. I didn't know Erikl was in the Israeli armed forces, that makes him all the more important to me as a source of information.

What more is there to say?

[Talon]

What more is there to say?

That you don't understand the concept of bias source material?

[Erikl]

Talon, calling someone a demagogue, when they are twisting others' words and taking them out of context, is not an insult.

Please don't turn it into a personall issue by saying that it is - because it isn't.

Youre agenda clearly is to back earlier misconseption of the IDF as the modern Nazis.

Only after I proved to you that they don't massacre the Palestinians, that we don't genocide them, and that race has nothing to do with it, you hold on other issues.

You start focus on houses destroyed because you can't hold onto massacres, you hold onto children combatant's death because you can't hold to unarmed children targetted by IDF.

Even now, you equate those children's death into David and Goliath, which is obviously not the point.

My view about those children's death hadn't change - I simply had to be more specific to make it harder for you to take my words out of context.

But you seem to do it anyway.

The Allies didn't encounter the Hitler Youth untill they were in Germany, occupaing it.

I think it is hypoctical of you to ignore the circumstances of those children's death.

What is the difference between Nazi use of children in battle, and terrorist's use of children in battle?

Babs is correct - you do not understand war, and you don't want to understand it either.

You can claim that I might be biased in my thoughts about this conflict, but not in my information and experience about it.

You, on the other hand, never left Scotland (as you once pointed out in another thread), and all youre information is comming from TV networks which are proven to be completly biased.

Heck - even the articles you brought here are from one of the most biased western TV network in the world.

As for the two states solutions - that was offered to them back in 1947, then 2000, and now Israel is planning to get out of Gaza anyway - and they rejected it and continued in their campaign of terror.

The use of children against armed soldiers by the Palestinians is a war crime.

It isn't like the IDF is going to Palestinian houses and start shooting at children.

Those children are dead because they participate in violence against armed soldiers.

As I said earlier, when the IDF is notified about riots, he is equipted with non-lethal weapons - like rubber bullets and tear gas.

But when a group of people surprised an armed soldiers with a shell of rocks comming their way from everywhere, what is to be expected?

Do you know how many IDF soldiers were seriously injured, and some died, by being hurt from a rock thrown at them?

It is all the question of circumstances.

If the IDF soldiers would have known that there was a riot, they would have come there with tear gas and rubber bullets, and when those kids were starting throwing rocks, they would have been used with this equipment.

But when IDF soldiers are sneak attacked, and are not equipted with the proper way to deal with it, they have little to do but defend themselves.

If they could - they would have drove away - I know because there were many incidents that when IDF soldiers were didn't have the proper equipment, but did have a way to escape the riot, they used it and got out of there.

I stand still in my view - the fault is upon the Palestinian side alone in this case.

Those children shouldn't have been there - but only Lottie, me and Babs seem to understand it.

Those children shouldn't have ambushed armed soldiers.

It is sad that those children died because they were children - but with all the emotionall charge here, ignoring the circumstances of their death ONLY because they are under the age of 18 is HYPOCRITICAL.

Even in court the circumstances of a person's death matter.

And as a proof - if it was the other way around - two Israeli children entering Gaza to find troubles - I would have put the main responsibilty on their parents (although the circumstances of their death should again be checked - because Palestinians would easily kill Israelis who enter the disputed territories, with no reason other than being an Israeli).

[Seraphina]

Erikle...I think Talon's only intention is to get by your bigotted, bias, and rascist lies about what's going on there....this sad little black and white picture you continue to paint up again, and agian, and again....

The fact that you seem to love using the suffering of your ancestors as an excuse everytime you country does something sickening: "It's a lie! It's an anti-jewish conspiracy! I'm a paranoid whack job!"

There is a reason, Erikle, why the EU can't stand your country...there's a reason almost the entire civilised world hates you...and it's not because of your fantasy anti-jewish conspiracy, it's because of what they see when they look at you.

Yes, there are plenty of places that are worse...yes, there are plenty of places that treat their neighbours far worse than Israel...but your country is the only one doing it under this ridiculous banner of "we are a civilised nation!"

You can continue living in your own little strange world if you like, where blood on the streets is a wonderful way of stopping hatred and terrorism...one of these days though, that attitude is likely to get you blown up

[Talon]

True Sera, you know Erikle's posts are getting so outrageous as of late I think he's just taking the p*** to wind people up

[Babs]

Erikl wrote:

My veiws about those children's deaths haven't changed- I simply had to be more specific to make it harder for you to take my words out of context. But you seem to do it anyway.

Yes, it is a mechanical thing. You can take apart any sentence, spit it back and say something different or even the opposite (as some do), but that doesn't get us at the truth. And it looks like the truth won't find Talon any time soon.

Talon wrote to me:

That you don't understand the concept of bias source material?

And you're 'not' biased?

It is amazing to me. I was sitting here, reading this, yesterday and thought to myself, "Talon is sitting over there in Scotland and knows nothing of the real situation and he has the audacity to dispute Erikl, a man in the trenches." I don't know, Talon, that is real arrogant. You sure can see what side you and seraphina are on.

It's sad when the truth is staring right at you. Erikl is right. You don't want to see the truth.

[Talon]

Oh my, Babs thinks Erikle’s right, so that automatically means he must be. ...

Bab's I’ve tried so hard to be polite, but its just to hard. So, when your posts stop being just copy & pastes of the local Republican manifesto and being nothing but right-wing tosh I'll start having some respect for it and actually consider the stuff you write worth responding too

[Talon]

Many dead in Gaza Strip clashes

A major Israeli incursion into the centre of the Jabaliya refugee camp - the first in years - has sparked off fierce clashes across the Gaza Strip.

At least 24 people have been killed and more than 100 wounded - including Palestinian civilians and militants, and Israeli soldiers and settlers.

In the worst single incident, seven Palestinian gunmen were killed by an Israeli tank shell inside Jabaliya.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has ordered reinforcements into Gaza.

Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz announced he had decided to launch a large-scale and open-ended military operation in the Gaza Strip to stop Palestinian rocket fire on Israeli border towns, Israel Army radio reported. The plan needed the approval of Israel's inner cabinet.

Palestinians condemned the Israeli offensive.

"This is a dangerous indicator which will lead to failure," said Nabil Abu Rudeinah, an aide to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

First incursion into heart?

Correspondents said it was the first time in the past four years of the Palestinian intifada that Israeli troops had reached the heart of the densely populated Jabaliya refugee camp.

In heavy fighting Israeli forces fired shells and machine guns as they headed for the militants' stronghold.

At least 20 Palestinians were wounded, some losing limbs, when the Israeli troops fired a shell into a group of militants, Palestinian officials said.

A major Israeli incursion into the centre of the Jabaliya refugee camp - the first in years - has sparked off fierce clashes across the Gaza Strip.

At least 24 people have been killed and more than 100 wounded - including Palestinian civilians and militants, and Israeli soldiers and settlers.

In the worst single incident, seven Palestinian gunmen were killed by an Israeli tank shell inside Jabaliya.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has ordered reinforcements into Gaza.

Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz announced he had decided to launch a large-scale and open-ended military operation in the Gaza Strip to stop Palestinian rocket fire on Israeli border towns, Israel Army radio reported. The plan needed the approval of Israel's inner cabinet.

Palestinians condemned the Israeli offensive.

"This is a dangerous indicator which will lead to failure," said Nabil Abu Rudeinah, an aide to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

First incursion into heart?

Correspondents said it was the first time in the past four years of the Palestinian intifada that Israeli troops had reached the heart of the densely populated Jabaliya refugee camp.

In heavy fighting Israeli forces fired shells and machine guns as they headed for the militants' stronghold.

At least 20 Palestinians were wounded, some losing limbs, when the Israeli troops fired a shell into a group of militants, Palestinian officials said.

Also earlier in the day, at least 10 Palestinians were killed by Israeli gunfire in the camp, including several militants and a 60-year-old man, witnesses said.

Those wounded ranged from 10-60 years old, hospital sourced told AP.

Bulldozers had earlier started demolishing houses, forcing residents to flee, witnesses said.

"A bulldozer entered our living room and demolished half the house," Hussein al-Jamal told the Associated Press news agency. His family fled, along with many of his neighbours.

In other violence on Thursday:

An Israeli soldier was killed when Hamas militants attacked an Israeli army base near Jabaliya. Two militant members of the Izzedine al-Qasem Brigades were killed in return fire, Hamas said.

Two Israelis - a woman jogger and a soldier - were killed in an ambush that also left two Palestinian gunmen dead. The ambush happened on a strip of road connecting the Jewish settlements of Elei Sinai and Dugit.

Withdrawal complicated

Despite the Israeli operation launched on Tuesday, rockets fired by Palestinian militants killed two Israeli children and wounded at least 10 people in the town of Sderot, just across the border on Wednesday.

The Gaza Strip has been occupied by Israel since it captured the territory in the 1967 war.

Palestinian rocket attacks are complicating Mr Sharon's plans to end Israel's occupation of Gaza, says our correspondent there Alan Johnston.

In London, UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw described the Middle East conflict as the greatest challenge to international order.

"As for Israel - the targeted killings have to end, the settlement building in the West Bank must stop as must the routing of the security barrier onto Palestinian land," Mr Straw told his Labour Party's conference.

"The Palestinian Authority must get serious to rein in terror groups who continue to cause such carnage and misery to innocent Israeli families," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3702902.stm

[Fluffybunny]

Well, I think this dead horse has been beaten enough. I am going to lock this thread before it ends up requiring a meeting with pistols at dawn to settle things.

I would hope that someday we could all be civil with each other.