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Ashotep

Pakistani girl accused of blasphemy

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SteveBronfman

"Prove me wrong then

Prove what - that one religion is less superstitious and barbaric than another. That would be impossible as they all have copious blood on their hands."

No, that comment was specifically regarding your comment about my previous post that I had "To many unsubstantiated sweeping statements to take seriously." You're purposely changing the goal posts with every post.

Edited by SteveBronfman

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Jackofalltrades

I'm starting to wonder if they didn't set this girl up because it seems they don't like the christians in their neighborhood.

11-year-old Pakistani girl faces death penalty for Quran burning

It seems to me that is exactly what it is, a set up to get rid of christians out of their neighbourhood

"Hammad Malik, a 23-year-old with a shaven head and bushy beard who is deemed a “scoundrel” by the Christian community, said he saw Rifta walking out of the tiny, single-room dwelling where she lived with her parents and sister at some time after 6pm.

He said it was pure chance that he noticed her bundle.

“I looked at it but did not know exactly what it was but I could see it had words written in Arabic,” he said.

He concedes that no one actually saw her burning anything as the offence allegedly happened inside the house, and she was caught while finding somewhere to throw away the remains. "

He didnt even know what she was carrying as he admittedly said in that quote from the link You gave

If the shoe was on the other foot it would be different, it would cause riots if it happened to them

When the girl gets out of prison I got a feeling she will end up dead regrettably

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SteveBronfman

"How can a religion mature"

In many many ways. Your basic problem is you seem to think because you're unaware of something it doesn't exist. This is the intellectual equivalent of a child covering their eyes and thinking the world's disappeared.

Donald Rumsfeld put it best when he famously said;

"There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.

There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know.

But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know, we don't know. "

I could give you thousands of examples but I'll give you one. Catholicism evolved radically because of Vatican II;

http://en.wikipedia....Vatican_Council

For example;

Ecclesiology

Perhaps the most famous and most influential product of the council is the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium.

In its first chapter, titled "The Mystery of the Church," is the famous statement that "the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth.' This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him" (Lumen Gentium, 8). The document immediately adds: "Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines."

Liturgy

Main article: Sacrosanctum Concilium

220px-Second_Vatican_Council_by_Lothar_Wolleh_006.jpg

magnify-clip.pngLeaving St. Peter's Basilica

220px-Second_Vatican_Council_by_Lothar_Wolleh_008.jpg

magnify-clip.pngCardinals Leaving St. Peter's

One of the first issues considered by the council, and the matter that had the most immediate effect on the lives of individual Catholics, was the revision of the liturgy. The central idea was that there ought to be greater lay participation in the liturgy. In the mid-1960s, permissions were granted to celebrate most of the Mass in vernacular languages, including the Canon from 1967 onwards.[23]

Neither the Second Vatican Council nor the subsequent revision of the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite: the official text of the Roman Missal, on which translations into vernacular languages are to be based, continues to be in Latin, and Latin can still be used in the celebration.[24]

Scripture and divine revelation

Main article: Dei Verbum

The council sought to revive the central role of Scripture in the theological and devotional life of the Church, building upon the work of earlier popes in crafting a modern approach to Scriptural analysis and interpretation. A new approach to interpretation was approved by the bishops. The Church was to continue to provide versions of the Bible in the "mother tongues" of the faithful, and both clergy and laity were to continue to make Bible study a central part of their lives. This affirmed the importance of Sacred Scripture as attested by Providentissimus Deus by Pope Leo XIII and the writings of the Saints, Doctors, and Popes throughout Church history but also approved historically conditioned interpretation of Scripture as presented in Pius XII's 1943 encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.

Bishops

The role of the bishops of the Church was brought into renewed prominence, especially when seen collectively, as a college that has succeeded to that of the Apostles in teaching and governing the Church. This college was headed by the successor of St. Peter.

Edited by SteveBronfman

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meryt-tetisheri

I'm starting to wonder if they didn't set this girl up because it seems they don't like the christians in their neighborhood.

11-year-old Pakistani girl faces death penalty for Quran burning

I agree with you, it certainly looks like a set up. There are no witnesses and no census either on what exactly was burnt, or what actually took place. It seems the whole incident is being used as an excuse to purge the neighborhood even if an 11 years old is executed in the process, she will be considered an acceptable sacrifice

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Br Cornelius

It was not the religion that matured - it was the people who follow it. Underneath the religion has all the same barbaric superstitions.

It is impossible to "prove" that Islam is more barbaric than Christianity since any objective head count of consequent deaths would be very similar. This is the sweeping statement about Islam which would be impossible to prove. It is your personal bias and prejudice which blinds you to the many crimes of Christianity.

Br Cornelius

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and then

It was not the religion that matured - it was the people who follow it. Underneath the religion has all the same barbaric superstitions.

It is impossible to "prove" that Islam is more barbaric than Christianity since any objective head count of consequent deaths would be very similar. This is the sweeping statement about Islam which would be impossible to prove. It is your personal bias and prejudice which blinds you to the many crimes of Christianity.

Br Cornelius

Where exactly did I say that Christianity had committed no crimes? The religion is man made. As are all others. Man is inherently evil in his heart - all men. Therefore anything created by them is tainted with it. But the quest to know God has also given us light and some degree of mercy which we otherwise might not have had. Rather than give some credit for this you constantly paint it all with a brush of venom - as though you are somehow a paragon of virtue shining the light of some special knowledge out to the dim witted masses. If you honestly think a secular humanistic world will be a better place then you are being foolish in my opinion. Look at the countries who have tried that route. Have they fared any better? I'm thinking of Russia, China, North Korea for starters. You seem to actually HATE religion and any idea that a God of Creation could be real - as though it threatens you personally. I'm not attacking you, truly, I'm just trying to understand the depth of emotion. There are a few others here that are similar and I just don't understand the anger.

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SteveBronfman

"It is impossible to "prove" that Islam is more barbaric than Christianity since any objective head count of consequent deaths would be very similar."

Untrue. While there's no point getting into a numbers game it's worth pointing out that the recent genocides/massacres by Westerners have not been committed in name of Christianity eg the Nazi's weren't inspired by Christianity and were largely anti-Christian preferring to look back to Germanic pagan roots, with the Muslim Mufti of Jerusalem, and not the Pope, spending the war years in Berlin and helping recruit for the SS. Stalin was a Communist again anti-Christian. Probably the 2 most striking examples of Christian inspired genocides were the Crusades and the Spanish colonisation of the Americans (which although largely economic had deeply Christian undertones) of the Inquisition. But that was 500 years ago.

The Arab, Ottoman and Moghul genocides were all religiously inspired and generally more recent though upto today. It is estimated Muslims killed around 80 million Hindus during their occupation of India alone. Ottoman genocides in the 20th century alone were 5 million (Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians). Christian religious genocides ended 500 years ago. Muslim religious genocides continue today; for instance in Sudan and Western Sahara.

Edited by SteveBronfman
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Coffey

Steve, I can't take any of that seriously.

The religion is made by people, it's the people who mature not the religion.

That's like saying the god of the religion matured. lol

As Br Cornelius pointed out, african Christians still kill witches etc.... OH and don't forget about female genital mutilation......

Edited by Coffey
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Grandpa Greenman

Religion gone bad. Doesn't matter which one it is. This is unacceptable behavior in any religion. A Quran is ink and paper, to make it more than that is to makes it a pagan idol. Blasphemy is a way of saying you're so unsure about your religion you have to kill or jail anyone who questions it. This being a child makes it double worst. People need to be going to jail, but not that child.

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Ashotep

I saw where the Israeli's arrested some teenagers, as they should, for attacking Palestinian kids who was more than likely muslim. I would like the see the Pakistanis and other muslim countries do the same thing when muslims are doing the attacking. Which that could apply to a Asian country that is letting monks get away with killing muslims because one muslim broke the law.

Israel arrests teen girls over hate attack on Palestinians

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and then

I saw where the Israeli's arrested some teenagers, as they should, for attacking Palestinian kids who was more than likely muslim. I would like the see the Pakistanis and other muslim countries do the same thing when muslims are doing the attacking. Which that could apply to a Asian country that is letting monks get away with killing muslims because one muslim broke the law.

Israel arrests teen girls over hate attack on Palestinians

I read this story as well. Kudos on Israel for arresting the punks! Apparently it was a Jew vs Arab hate fest and some young man got beaten to the point of hospitalization. Unacceptable but hardly mysterious as to the cause. In fact I'm surprised that more of it doesn't happen within such a poisoned atmosphere. Hopefully the CCTV cams will tell the tale and the guilty will be punished.

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Knight Of Shadows

"It is impossible to "prove" that Islam is more barbaric than Christianity since any objective head count of consequent deaths would be very similar."

Untrue. While there's no point getting into a numbers game it's worth pointing out that the recent genocides/massacres by Westerners have not been committed in name of Christianity eg the Nazi's weren't inspired by Christianity and were largely anti-Christian preferring to look back to Germanic pagan roots, with the Muslim Mufti of Jerusalem, and not the Pope, spending the war years in Berlin and helping recruit for the SS. Stalin was a Communist again anti-Christian. Probably the 2 most striking examples of Christian inspired genocides were the Crusades and the Spanish colonisation of the Americans (which although largely economic had deeply Christian undertones) of the Inquisition. But that was 500 years ago.

The Arab, Ottoman and Moghul genocides were all religiously inspired and generally more recent though upto today. It is estimated Muslims killed around 80 million Hindus during their occupation of India alone. Ottoman genocides in the 20th century alone were 5 million (Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians). Christian religious genocides ended 500 years ago. Muslim religious genocides continue today; for instance in Sudan and Western Sahara.

really ? how about christians crusaders killing all in their path in jerusalem ?

and muslims conquest of jerusalem killing none of civilians ?

and even allowing warriors to leave

ps saladin time

Edited by Knight Of Shadows
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and then

really ? how about christians crusaders killing all in their path in jerusalem ?

and muslims conquest of jerusalem killing none of civilians ?

and even allowing warriors to leave

ps saladin time

KoS do Muslims believe in forgiveness of their enemies? Not just other Muslims but all their enemies, ever? In every war or conflict that ever was it comes down to one group wanting something the other group had OR something they felt was being with held by another group. People are evil, brutal in nature. All people. That's why Christ's message was so perfect. His way brings all the killing to a full stop - WHEN people listen and actually obey. Problem is it's one of the most difficult things a human can do. To simply give up to one's enemies and allow them to subjugate and kill.

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Jackofalltrades

There is good and bad in EVERY religion no religion is perfect, same as no person is perfect

Every religion at some point in time has done horrendous acts in the name of God/Allah and in the name of religion in general

The only way to stop horrendous acts like what have happened in the past is for the leaders of all religion's

and for the followers of each religion to teach and practice love and not hate also treat other's as You would like to be treated

It would also help if people actually got their facts right before accusing someone of wrong doing

If Hammad Malik got his facts right before accusing the girl of burning the Qur'an then maybe Rifta would not be locked up in prison (for her own safety)

Rifta's family wouldnt be living in slums due to being forced out of their home like all the rest of the Christian families there have been

It is wrong for anyone to be facing a death sentence no matter what the reason

Would God/Allah want anyone to kill anyone for ANY matter no matter how big or small ? I very seriously doubt it TBH

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Knight Of Shadows

KoS do Muslims believe in forgiveness of their enemies? Not just other Muslims but all their enemies, ever? In every war or conflict that ever was it comes down to one group wanting something the other group had OR something they felt was being with held by another group. People are evil, brutal in nature. All people. That's why Christ's message was so perfect. His way brings all the killing to a full stop - WHEN people listen and actually obey. Problem is it's one of the most difficult things a human can do. To simply give up to one's enemies and allow them to subjugate and kill.

yes they actually do believe in forgiveness that's why it's forbidden to kill war prisoners

that's why crusaders were safely given a way out of jerusalem when saladin won

can you say the same about the crusaders when they took over jerusalem ?

i bet you don't coz every one knows they killed all muslims

great forgiveness of christiantiy eh ?

stop bluffing us and your self ..

edit : mohamad message was so perfect as well .. but you keep blaming actions of few on islam as whole

and i don't see you doing the same about christanity instead making pitty excuses

that's called biased my friend

you eaither admit both religions were evil .. due to actions of few

or you eaither admit both are good but some people did actions were not approved of both religions

it's simple

Edited by Knight Of Shadows

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and then

yes they actually do believe in forgiveness that's why it's forbidden to kill war prisoners

that's why crusaders were safely given a way out of jerusalem when saladin won

can you say the same about the crusaders when they took over jerusalem ?

i bet you don't coz every one knows they killed all muslims

great forgiveness of christiantiy eh ?

stop bluffing us and your self ..

edit : mohamad message was so perfect as well .. but you keep blaming actions of few on islam as whole

and i don't see you doing the same about christanity instead making pitty excuses

that's called biased my friend

you eaither admit both religions were evil .. due to actions of few

or you eaither admit both are good but some people did actions were not approved of both religions

it's simple

You missed the point. I wasn't condemning Islam this time, just saying that the only way to stop the cycle is for one side to just give up and hope for the other to be merciful. I think that in the modern era we live in it is more likely that would be the West but I don't care to argue the point. I think if you are honest you will admit that you'd rather be a prisoner of the US than of Assad's forces.

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libstaK

Religion is made by humans... So it takes humans to change it. Religion itself cannot change obviously..... lol

No the religion hasn't matured. The people who beleive the religion have become more modernised. Huge difference. How can a religion mature? lol

Through epithany and revelation.

Like the Amish?

The Amish have not evolved industrially but I would say they have focussed their attention on matters that can truly evolve human thought, an example where religion led to someone trying to make a positive difference - buddhism is another classic example where self improvement is the first priority to gain a better understanding of compassion for others.

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SteveBronfman

Update...

By Stefan J. Bos, Chief International Correspondent BosNewsLife

Churches are often attacked in Pakistan, Christians say.

ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN (BosNewsLife)-- Muslims torched Christian homes and "destroyed" a church in a slum area of Islamabad while suspected militants shot at another church outside Pakistan's capital, after the jailing of a mentally handicapped Christian girl for "blasphemy", witnesses said Tuesday, August 21.

"Our staff and a few [other] Christians went into [islamabad's] colony of Meherabadi [late Monday local time ]," added Farrukh H. Saif, executive director of Pakistani rights group World Vision In Progress (WVIP).

"We found that five houses were burned and one church was destroyed," he told BosNewsLife. "Bibles [have been torn] to pieces and a [church] cross is broken", the official said.

Elsewhere in Pakistan's southern city of Karachi the Catholic St. Matthew’s Church was "attacked by unknown extremists at 2 a.m. local time," added Saif, citing investigators.

"They opened fire at the Church building which damaged the front of the building," in Karachi's Pehlwan Goth neighborhood, he explained.

MORE TENSIONS

Karachi's WVIP representative in Karachi, Sunny Bernard Gill, said the incident had "created tension and fear among Christians of the Pehlwan Goth" area.

This was not an isolated incident in the neighborhood as "Muslim extremists" have attacked Christian properties and churches twice over the last year, Saif said.

The latest violence came as 11-year-old Rimsha Masih was preparing to spend another night in Adiala jail, a grim facility in Rawalpindi, close to Islamabad.

Police jailed the girl Friday, August 17, after at least hundreds of Muslim protesters demanded that she face charges under Pakistan’s blasphemy laws.

A local cleric had said she burned pages of the Noorani Qaida, a religious textbook used to teach the Koran to children, said Saif.

MENTALLY HANDICAPPED

Rimsha is thought to be mentally handicapped, but police quoted in some media claimed "she had no mental impairments" and that she may be older.

However Saif told BosNewsLife he is convinced about her young age and stressed she "could not have known she burned the textbook as she can not read."

As Pakistani Muslims celebrated the feast of Id al-Fitr, Rimsha was still in Adiala jail reportedly with her mother, awaiting their fate.

Muslim mobs have been pressuring the girl’s Christian neighbors and others to flee, Saif and other activists said.

THOUSANDS FLEE

Thousands of Christians were still outside the slum area where the alleged burning incident happened, fearing for their lives, according to several human rights workers.

There were concerns late Tuesday, August 21, that at least several Christian refugees would have no place to return to, amid reports of burning homes. WVIP said it was distributing food among hundreds of impoverished Christians.

Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari stressed in a statement that he had "taken notice" of the situation and ordered the Interior Ministry to investigate the girl's detention.

Under Pakistan's controversial blasphemy legislation anyone, including apparently minors, can face the death penalty or at least a long prison term for blasphemy against Islam.

On Monday, August 20, Dutch parliamentarians of the ChristianUnie, or'ChristianUnion' party, urged the Netherlands and the European Union to pressure Pakistan to release Rimsha and demand an end to the blasphemy laws.

The case underscores concerns over thousands of children who rights activists say are languishing in Pakistani jails, often without proper legal representation, or just forgotten by what critics view as a corrupt and bureaucratic judicial system.

Edited by SteveBronfman

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Knight Of Shadows

You missed the point. I wasn't condemning Islam this time, just saying that the only way to stop the cycle is for one side to just give up and hope for the other to be merciful. I think that in the modern era we live in it is more likely that would be the West but I don't care to argue the point. I think if you are honest you will admit that you'd rather be a prisoner of the US than of Assad's forces.

well as much as it's true for your last statement about being prisoner

but thing is this person does not represent islam .. he's not even muslim neither his sect

the real solution is when muslims AND non-muslims stand in face of dictatorship together and let aside any profit they got from it

that way no extremists can reach the rule .. and no muslims will remain silent when non-muslims are oppressed

but when non-muslims sides with dictators in some places .. muslims tend not to forget

so when they come to rule .. they have no compassion on opression that falls on them ..

however this is all wrong none the less

in old times even when non-muslims fought muslims they were treated well

and that is how it suppose to be .. if we were ruling by islam for real

but unfortunatly none of those " islamic " country are ruling by real islam

it's simply dictatorships under the banner of islam to wrap people around them

Edited by Knight Of Shadows
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meryt-tetisheri
A local cleric had said she burned pages of the Noorani Qaida, a religious textbook used to teach the Koran to children, said Saif......

However Saif told BosNewsLife he is convinced about her young age and stressed she "could not have known she burned the textbook as she can not read."

I suspected that she was illiterate, yet she is imprisoned and will face charges over burning a text book which she couldn't even decipher, despite her young age and possible disability? I think people worldwide should be more vocal in unequivocally condemning Pakistan for both this case and for tolerating collective punishment of a whole community for the unintentional actions of a child.

Edited by meryt-tetisheri

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Super-Fly

Terrible actions,

After i read the update they should be ashamed.

I expected nothing more.

Thanks,

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Corp

Terrible. Basic education can't come to these areas fast enough. Until everyone is educated and has access to honest news sources local leaders will continue to use wild rumours to raise savage mobs.

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Knight Of Shadows

I was kidding. Calm down. I understand all of this and I'm not saying America is better than any other country; however, the charges this girl may face are extremely horrible.

it is horriable and muslims should not allow such things to happen

but alas none of these countries has the freedom to do so

under no situation an underage person can be put to trial or punishment for such case.. not in islam . not in civil countries

Edited by Knight Of Shadows

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HappyNcamping

unfortunatly am not after pleasing any one

i like to state things as they are .. am not hippocrate i see something wrong i admit it

unlike many people here

Going back to the original posting, "my" personal opinion which I am sure someone, maybe a lot of people will disagree with me, and I DGF,. is that these savages should be wrapped up with their Korgan or whatever that unholy piece of crap that demands that that little girl, who has downes disease and is incapable of understanding what is going on. So she had 2 burnt parts of that unholy book and maybe she was burning it, but she is still incapable of understanding that this is wrong. But this unholy book and even worse their sariaha religion is going to stone this child, and no one over there will come to her aid for fear they will be next. They all should be wrapped up in the pages, have pig blood/oil soak it and fire it off. this is the only thing these evil pregnant pigs (there that much better lol) will understand. Hate me, at least i spoke my mind, as tiny as it is...... Edited by HappyNcamping
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