Osiris - A real Pharaoh?

[TheCosmicMind]

Does anyone think that Osiris might have been a real Pharaoh, and was eventually deified? Is there any evidence to support this idea at all? (I don't mean to say a real person who did the same things as Osiris of myth obviously).

[Simbi Laveau]

I have never heard of osiris being anything but a god

[Princess Serenity]

Does anyone think that Osiris might have been a real Pharaoh, and was eventually deified? Is there any evidence to support this idea at all? (I don't mean to say a real person who did the same things as Osiris of myth obviously).

No. Osiris was an Egyptian God. That's all he ever was.

[Ashotep]

A god is all I ever heard unless there is new evidence.

[cormac mac airt]

Does anyone think that Osiris might have been a real Pharaoh, and was eventually deified? Is there any evidence to support this idea at all? (I don't mean to say a real person who did the same things as Osiris of myth obviously).

While possible, it's not likely, since Osiris is first attested around the late Vth early VIth dynasty and we have several names of Ancient Egyptian kings predating the Ist Dynasty. None of which are, or are associated with, Osiris.

cormac

[TheCosmicMind]

While possible, it's not likely, since Osiris is first attested around the late Vth early VIth dynasty and we have several names of Ancient Egyptian kings predating the Ist Dynasty. None of which are, or are associated with, Osiris.

cormac

This answer makes a ton of sense to me. Thanks, I think that settles the question for me.

Edited August 20, 2012 by TheCosmicMind

[kmt_sesh]

I agree with cormac. The Egyptians were ambiguous about these things sometimes, but there is a difference between their mythology and their royal annals. Osiris does not appear in the latter but is known in the former, suggesting that he belonged to the realm of religion and ritual. His mythology is already pretty well developed by the time he first appears late in Dynasty 5, but at that early point he was not quite yet the ruler of the underworld. The hierarchical structure of deities as depicted in private tombs late in Dynasty 5 suggests underworld deities like Anubis, and including the current reigning king, held primacy before Osiris. The situation is not entirely clear but Osiris probably did not secure his place as ruler of the underworld till some time in the First Intermediate Period.

All this is to say, while we can trace the development of Osiris as a god, we have no evidence to tell us he was an actual, living man at some point.

[poetofsheba]

Well it's not unlikely - several scientists believe that Odin/wudin of Norse mythology might have been a king or chieftain whose legends slowly morphed into myth. And he then became a god. we have no records of such a king but it doesn't mean that he never existed - there are no written records of early Norse religion he could have lived long ago and people might have passed on the legends and his name by word of mouth for many years... And we all know what happens to stories when they're told over and over and time passes

So it could have happened in Egypt - just because we have no record of a resent king by that name around the time where Osiris started appearing as a god, doesn't mean it couldn't have originated from stories of a much earlier king.

But as with Odin - as long as we have no records with the name in connection with a king or ruler - we really can't say for sure - we can only make educated guesses from what we do know.

[cormac mac airt]

Well it's not unlikely - several scientists believe that Odin/wudin of Norse mythology might have been a king or chieftain whose legends slowly morphed into myth. And he then became a god. we have no records of such a king but it doesn't mean that he never existed - there are no written records of early Norse religion he could have lived long ago and people might have passed on the legends and his name by word of mouth for many years... And we all know what happens to stories when they're told over and over and time passes

So it could have happened in Egypt - just because we have no record of a resent king by that name around the time where Osiris started appearing as a god, doesn't mean it couldn't have originated from stories of a much earlier king.

But as with Odin - as long as we have no records with the name in connection with a king or ruler - we really can't say for sure - we can only make educated guesses from what we do know.

It's not a matter of a "recent" king since the first attestation of Osiris comes during late Dynasty 5, which is around 2400 BC while we actually have kings names going back to possibly as early as c.3250 BC. Again, none of these are associated with Osiris, as can be seen here:

Scorpion I...................................................Ska

Falcon........................................................H'yw

Lion............................................................Tyu

Pe-hor........................................................Tsh

Double Falcon............................................Nhb

Hat-Hor.......................................................Wadjha

Ny-Hor........................................................Mch

Hedjw-Hor

Horus Iry-Hor

Crocodile

Scorpion II

Horus Ka

Names on the left are kings of Upper Egypt while those on the right are kings of Lower Egypt. Immediately noticeable is that they are more commonly associated with Horus.

cormac

Edited August 20, 2012 by cormac mac airt

[Harsh86_Patel]

It's not a matter of a "recent" king since the first attestation of Osiris comes during late Dynasty 5, which is around 2400 BC while we actually have kings names going back to possibly as early as c.3250 BC. Again, none of these are associated with Osiris, as can be seen here:

Scorpion I...................................................Ska

Falcon........................................................H'yw

Lion............................................................Tyu

Pe-hor........................................................Tsh

Double Falcon............................................Nhb

Hat-Hor.......................................................Wadjha

Ny-Hor........................................................Mch

Hedjw-Hor

Horus Iry-Hor

Crocodile

Scorpion II

Horus Ka

Names on the left are kings of Upper Egypt while those on the right are kings of Lower Egypt. Immediately noticeable is that they are more commonly associated with Horus.

cormac

Whats your take on Manetho's list? 1 st dynasty would then be attributed to Ptah...........could Osiris have been born as a Grandson of Ptah? Not a pharoan but probably a living entity?

[fenta]

That's all he ever was.

[TheCosmicMind]

Does anyone know if there are any examples of pharoahs who have been deified (I know they were all supposed to be divine) to the point where there were myths made up about them?

[cormac mac airt]

Whats your take on Manetho's list? 1 st dynasty would then be attributed to Ptah...........could Osiris have been born as a Grandson of Ptah? Not a pharoan but probably a living entity?

It's a mythical account of how kingship originated. Similar accounts can be found in Sumer, China, etc. It's just a way to validate a king by claiming he's a living descendant of the gods, nothing more.

cormac

[Harte]

Does anyone know if there are any examples of pharoahs who have been deified (I know they were all supposed to be divine) to the point where there were myths made up about them?

No, but I know that Imhotep was worshipped as a diety for a while, though he was never king.

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

Does anyone know if there are any examples of pharoahs who have been deified (I know they were all supposed to be divine) to the point where there were myths made up about them?

This happened to a number of very prominent kings, and usually a long time after they had been dead. A good example is Khufu, builder of the Great Pyramid in Dynasty 4. Probably as early as Dynasty 12 a number of stories grew around him, and some are preserved in the Westcar Papyrus.

[Drums]

In egyptian mythology wasn't Ra considered the first pharoah? Not saying Ra was a real person, just don't remember the mythology that well

[Simbi Laveau]

Ra is the sun god.

When comparative religion is done,osiris and Isis,are the equivalents of shiva and parvati ,in the Hindu religion .

Ergo ,ganesh is equivalent to horus.

It's been postulated ,the story of Isis ,osiris and Horus ,are the basis of many religions,including Christianity.

Horus= Christ .

I have only ever heard this put forth directly ,except from egyptologists ,but horus was actually a carpenter .

Edited August 22, 2012 by Simbi Laveau

[kmt_sesh]

In egyptian mythology wasn't Ra considered the first pharoah? Not saying Ra was a real person, just don't remember the mythology that well

Re is the god who grew weary of mankind and handed over kingship to Osiris. It can be confusing and ambiguous, but even though Osiris was the son of a god, he was considered the first mortal king in mythology. Then jealous Set came along and mucked things up. Only when Osiris was resurrected and died once again, did he become a full deity.

There are numerous versions of such tales that were embellished or created down through time, so in essence there is not one, single Osiris myth. Nor is there one, single myth for Horus—who is not only a much older deity in the pantheon, but much more complicated. An aspect of Re, the king on earth, Horus the Avenger, Horus the Child, usually held to be the son of Isis but in other myths the son of Hathor, whose name in ancient Egyptian (Hwt-Hr) literally means "House of Horus."

It can be hard to keep all of this straight.

[Drums]

got it, thnxs kmt

[cladking]

Re is the god who grew weary of mankind and handed over kingship to Osiris. It can be confusing and ambiguous, but even though Osiris was the son of a god, he was considered the first mortal king in mythology. Then jealous Set came along and mucked things up. Only when Osiris was resurrected and died once again, did he become a full deity.

Logically Osiris would have to actually exist before Re' could could turn over kingship.

When Osiris first existed in dynasty five there is no attestation that Re' turned over any-

thing. To put it another way there's no evidence this occurred before the fifth dynasty and

Osiris would have had to be king before this time unless an unknown king assumed the

name.

A better answer is that both king's lists are interpreted to exclude apparent (obvious) fac-

tual errors so neither can be trusted. Even if these lists could be trusted we don't know

all the kings or perhaps any of them in far antiquity.

The proper noun that we translate "Osiris" quite possibly was known as an object or an

individual before it was first used for a God but there is a virtual vacuum of evidence from

such early times or anything before the 5th dynasty.

My personal speculation is that there was an individual who loosely formed the basis of

this God. That he was a king is hardly a certainty. Gods are by definitions concepts on one

level or another. We know exactly when the concept of "Anubis" or "Min" arose but the

onset of "Osiris" appears to be lost. Like everything about the iconography, symbolism,

deities, and magic sceptres of the ancients there is no agreed upon definition or meaning.

Even though we know when Min was born we have no real information about him and few

of his characteristics for centuries after his birth. It is merely assumed that later aspects of

the religion can be projected back into time. It is not logical to make such assumptions if

there is so little evidence. Perhaps what you see is what you get.

[The_Spartan]

there is this Temple of Djer, which was discovered by Emile Amelineau and was erraneously stated that the temple was of Osiris.

http://www.touregypt...es/djertomb.htm

have a read.

Edited August 23, 2012 by The_Spartan

[kmt_sesh]

Logically Osiris would have to actually exist before Re' could could turn over kingship.

When Osiris first existed in dynasty five there is no attestation that Re' turned over any-

thing. To put it another way there's no evidence this occurred before the fifth dynasty and

Osiris would have had to be king before this time unless an unknown king assumed the

name.

A better answer is that both king's lists are interpreted to exclude apparent (obvious) fac-

tual errors so neither can be trusted. Even if these lists could be trusted we don't know

all the kings or perhaps any of them in far antiquity.

The proper noun that we translate "Osiris" quite possibly was known as an object or an

individual before it was first used for a God but there is a virtual vacuum of evidence from

such early times or anything before the 5th dynasty.

My personal speculation is that there was an individual who loosely formed the basis of

this God. That he was a king is hardly a certainty. Gods are by definitions concepts on one

level or another. We know exactly when the concept of "Anubis" or "Min" arose but the

onset of "Osiris" appears to be lost. Like everything about the iconography, symbolism,

deities, and magic sceptres of the ancients there is no agreed upon definition or meaning.

Even though we know when Min was born we have no real information about him and few

of his characteristics for centuries after his birth. It is merely assumed that later aspects of

the religion can be projected back into time. It is not logical to make such assumptions if

there is so little evidence. Perhaps what you see is what you get.

Almost none of the myths pertaining to Osiris with which modern laypeople are familiar, existed in the earlier periods of pharaonic history. The point of my earlier post was the development of cult, and the cult of Osiris did not truly begin to develop until some time in the First Intermediate Period. It had largely matured, although not fully, by Dynasty 12 in the Middle Kingdom. Even when Osiris first appears in detail, in the Pyramid Texts at the end of Dynasty 5, he is sketchily presented at best.

Atum and Re go back to the predynstic period, as does Min. This is one example where archaeology meshes perfectly with the ancient mythology—Atum was the first god (according to the Heliopolis cult). Atum is an aspect of Re. Obviously Re came first because Osiris originated from his line—in the mythology. I keep stressing that because cults and myths were different in certain important centers in ancient Egypt. In truth, by all appearances, Osiris arose in the south, but by that time Re had already been in the pantheon for centuries.

There is no evidence at any point in the predynastic period that a chieftain named Osiris existed.

there is this Temple of Djer, which was discovered by Emile Amelineau and was erraneously stated that the temple was of Osiris.

http://www.touregypt...es/djertomb.htm

have a read.

A good article, Spartan. Amelineau was something of a hack and it took Petrie to do it right. Still, one cannot completely blame Amelineau for thinking Djer's tomb was meant for Osiris. When he ransacked the tomb, he was bound to find many more artifacts for Osiris than for Djer. By Dynasty 12 the Egyptians themselves regarded Djer's tomb as Osiris' resting place, and for the rest of pharaonic history the Egyptians continued to do so. Imagine all of the offerings people brought to that tomb, in Osiris' name. This is why that site at Abydos is called Umm el-Qaab, "Mother of Pots."

[The_Spartan]

No clad. the temple though belonging to Djer was modified later by other pharaos.

To give Amelineau some credit, a second excavation of the Djer tomb revealed that it had been modified in antiquity to serve as a Tomb of Osiris. The Osiris Bed, which was studied by the English Egyptologist Anthony Leahy, was dedicated by King Khendjer of the 13th Dynasty, and an entrance staircase had been added for the convenience of pilgrims to the site.

Source Edited August 23, 2012 by The_Spartan

[kayros]

I strongly recommend you the book Prehistoric Dacia by late prof Nicolae Densusianu. It`s all free on the web at www.dacia.org/densusianu/pd.pdf. There you can learn about Osiris`s military campaigns against Seth (here called Typhoon) that took place on the North of the Danube (Istru). The Danube by then was collecting waters from the sea that filled the nowadays Pannonic Plain and was emptying it`s waters through an estuary in the Black Sea, initially a sweet water lake.

[Hanslune]

I strongly recommend you the book Prehistoric Dacia by late prof Nicolae Densusianu. It`s all free on the web at www.dacia.org/densusianu/pd.pdf. There you can learn about Osiris`s military campaigns against Seth (here called Typhoon) that took place on the North of the Danube (Istru). The Danube by then was collecting waters from the sea that filled the nowadays Pannonic Plain and was emptying it`s waters through an estuary in the Black Sea, initially a sweet water lake.

"late" ? He died over a century ago! (1911)